From bigbluecat@aol.com Wed Dec 27 14:52:15 CET 1995
Article: 11526 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: bigbluecat@aol.com (BigBlueCat)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Uncle Zeb's Will
Date: 25 Dec 1995 02:47:42 -0500
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Anyone out there played this game.  I know it's been said that this is a
rather simple game.  Don't you just hate that? I could use a little nudge
from the tower. I've found all sorts of stuff.  Don't know what to do with
all of it yet.

Later,
Gerry


From baf@max.tiac.net Wed Dec 27 18:31:26 CET 1995
Article: 11539 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: baf@max.tiac.net (Carl Muckenhoupt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Trinity Ending
Date: 27 Dec 95 16:43:19 GMT
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Interesting points about time travel.  It suddenly strikes me how clever 
Moriarty was with that element - since the times and places you visit are
all blown up immediately after you leave, the issue of changing history -
the central concern of most time travel games, from TimeQuest to Jigsaw -
simply doesn't arise.  Whatever you do, it will simply be reduced to a 
heap of ash markedly similar to the heap of ash that otherwise would have 
been.  (Hmm, another comment on mortality?  Or am I reading too much in?)
Only at the end, when you actually prevent the bomb from going off, do 
you learn that it's impossible.  Which saves the implementor from writing 
a certain amount of code, eh?

Well... I suppose you get some hints.  There's the distinct possibility 
that the little girl to whom you give the umbrella is the same as the 
horribly scarred woman who you got it from in the first place (in other 
words, the umbrella is time-looped, never created or destroyed.)  This can 
only be true if the past that results from your actions is the same as 
the past that caused them.
-- 
Carl Muckenhoupt              | Text Adventures are not dead!
baf@tiac.net                  | Read rec.[arts|games].int-fiction to see
http://www.tiac.net/users/baf | what you're missing!


From erkyrath+@CMU.EDU Wed Jan 24 09:14:34 CET 1996
Article: 12041 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Adventuring grues?
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:32:59 -0500
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <Ml1Fj=_00WB655C9Ak@andrew.cmu.edu>
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	<4e0q76$8ge@sauron.multiverse.com>
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russotto@ariel.ct.picker.com (Matthew Russotto) writes:
> In article <4d40iu$5r0@golem.wcc.govt.nz> boutel1g@blade.wcc.govt.nz writes:
> 
> }DIG WEST
> }
> }You utilise your monstrous strength to cast aside the rocks and boulders,
> }reopening the western passage. You see the bluish form of the adventurer
> }collapsed in one corner, causing you to pass your sandpaper tongue across your
> }lips to catch the drool which coagulates on one side of your mouth.
> }
> }[Your score has gone up 5 points]
> 
> Hey, none of that.  Grues don't eat dead adventurers.

Sure they do. They're very careful about it, though. They use their
sandpaper tongues to rasp all the flesh off, leaving the bones
undisturbed (for future adventurers to find.)

It's a religious thing. Unfortunately, I can't locate my copy of _The
Black Goddess: Myth and Archetype Among the Obligate Nocturnals of the
Great Underground Empire, Volume 1_, by J. Campbell Planicephales.

(Volume 2 was never published, although a sheaf of papers was recently
discovered in the lower Antharian reaches which may represent the
author's field research notes. We'll never know, and the last entry
is a hastily-scrawled note reading "Gotta remember to buy new
batteries before I go!")

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."


From adam@tucson.princeton.edu Thu Jan 25 09:25:00 CET 1996
Article: 12055 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: adam@tucson.princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Adventuring grues?
Date: 24 Jan 1996 05:14:57 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 25
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References: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960101000426.20441A-100000@unicorn.it.wsu.edu> <4d40iu$5r0@golem.wcc.govt.nz> <4e0q76$8ge@sauron.multiverse.com> <Ml1Fj=_00WB655C9Ak@andrew.cmu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tucson.princeton.edu

In article <Ml1Fj=_00WB655C9Ak@andrew.cmu.edu>,
Andrew C. Plotkin <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU> wrote:
>It's a religious thing. Unfortunately, I can't locate my copy of _The
>Black Goddess: Myth and Archetype Among the Obligate Nocturnals of the
>Great Underground Empire, Volume 1_, by J. Campbell Planicephales.

Feh.  All of that volume is cribbed from Asinus Planicephalus' _De
Inhabitantibus Tenebris_ anyway.  Just 'cos Joe translated some 400-year
old texts no one had looked at since their publication, and then Bill
Plattkopf did that silly PBS Miniseries...

>(Volume 2 was never published, although a sheaf of papers was recently
>discovered in the lower Antharian reaches which may represent the
>author's field research notes. We'll never know, and the last entry
>is a hastily-scrawled note reading "Gotta remember to buy new
>batteries before I go!")

Oh, yeah, the "Lost Granola Mine Codices," right?

Adam
-- 
adam@phoenix.princeton.edu | Viva HEGGA! | Save the choad! | 64,928 | Fnord
"Double integral is also the shape of lovers curled asleep":Pynchon | Linux
Thanks for letting me rearrange the chemicals in your head. | Team OS/2
You can have my PGP passphrase when you pry it from my cold, dead brain.


From hebronj@matai.vuw.ac.nz Mon Jan 29 10:55:09 CET 1996
Article: 12112 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: hebronj@matai.vuw.ac.nz (Jason Hebron)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Adventuring grues?
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:26:25 GMT
Organization: Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand.
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russotto@ariel.ct.picker.com (Matthew Russotto) wrote:

>In article <4d40iu$5r0@golem.wcc.govt.nz> boutel1g@blade.wcc.govt.nz writes:

>}DIG WEST
>}
>}You utilise your monstrous strength to cast aside the rocks and boulders,
>}reopening the western passage. You see the bluish form of the adventurer
>}collapsed in one corner, causing you to pass your sandpaper tongue across your
>}lips to catch the drool which coagulates on one side of your mouth.
>}
>}[Your score has gone up 5 points]

>Hey, none of that.  Grues don't eat dead adventurers.

I don't know about that. What does "You are likely to be eaten by a
Grue" mean if not that adventurers are indeed the cuisine of choice
for the gourmet Grue? The possibility that Grues only eat live
adventurers seems unlikely because of the distinct lack of dead
spelunkers littering the Great Underground Empire.

Of course, it is plausible that such messages only impart hearsay
concerning Grue culinary habits. Or, as is able to be infered from the
'likely' part of the message, it could be that grues do in fact
occasionally have other uses for stray adventurers. What those might
be I wouldn't like to guess...

Tangle  




From corleyj@lpl.arizona.edu Mon Jan 29 17:14:02 CET 1996
Article: 12076 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: corleyj@lpl.arizona.edu (Jason Corley)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Grue Moon Update
Date: 25 Jan 1996 21:04:08 GMT
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Features now included in the developing "Grue Moon: The Legend of Ikroz":


The Encyclopedia Gruebozzica, including entries on the various subspecies
of adventurer (Inspector, Stellar Patroller, Duddhist), and tasty ways
to prepare them (chocolate-covered adventurer, french fried adventurer,
Adventurer Nuggets)

The triumphant return of J. Pierpont Flathead, financier and mogul of the
Frobozzco. conglomerates!

The insanely popular opera "Lohengrue".

The explanation for why all those treasures are scattered all over the place.

More dumb adventurers than you can slaver at!  (Nah, not really, you can
slaver at all of them.)


THINGS STILL NEEDED:

We're looking for more puzzles, neat ideas and concepts for this adventure.
Also, bad jokes, and as many references to as many IF games as possible
(we've already included references to Shelby, Curses, Christminster, the
Unnkulian adventures, and many Infocom games, but the idea is to load
the game down with such references.)  Running gags, bad puns and fun
puzzles are always welcome.

We've gotten the main storyline and some of the main characters finished,
but I'm not going to spoil it for everyone.  My friend John says he's
decided on TADS for it, because, in his words, "The documentation is
1/10th as long as it is for Inform and I have a degree to get."

So send or post your ideas!



--
******************************************************************************
"Why shouldn't things be largely absurd, futile and transitory: they are so,
 and we are so, and they and we go very well together."	------Santayana
Jason D. "corleyj@tau.lpl.arizona.edu" Corley is no longer in service.


From ian@cs.brandeis.edu Wed Feb 14 12:24:50 CET 1996
Article: 12370 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: ian@cs.brandeis.edu (Xiphias Gladius)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Finisher christminster--still have questions
Date: 13 Feb 1996 15:20:20 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University
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scythe@u.washington.edu (Dan Shiovitz) writes:

>In article <4fjjju$2j@phakt.usc.edu>,
>Jacob Solomon Weinstein <jweinste@phakt.usc.edu> wrote:
>>Spoilers follow.
>>
>>I've finally finished Christminster, which I enjoyed quite a bit. I have 
>>a few questions:

>>2) How was I supposed to know that the wine was the spittle of Lune and 
>>the gum was the "bath of kings"?

> I don't know about the gum.  Probably a latin translation of that
> passage would be more clear.

Exactly.

Look up John 11:43 in the Latin Bible in the chapel.

Then get a KJV out of the library (Look up the author, "God").  Look
up John 11:43 there.

The Latin reads:

John 11:43 reads, "Et haec cum dixisset, posuit vinum myrrheum labiis
Lazari, et voce magna clamavit, Lazare, ite foras." Isn't Latin a
beautiful language?

The English reads:

John 11 is the chapter describing how Jesus raised Lazarus from the
dead. Verse 43 reads, "And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a
loud voice, Lazarus, come forth." Nothing unusual about the words. You
wonder why Malcolm's lab book referred to that passage in particular.

"Et haec cum dixisset" means, "And when he had thus spoken."  "et voce
magna clamavit, Lazare ite foras" means, "and he cried with a loud
voice, Lazarus, come forth."

"posuit vinum myrrheum labiis" means, "he poured the myrrhed wine on
(his) lips."

So, now you know that myrrh is one of the ingredients, one that Lully
refers to as "Bath of Kings".

So, what *is* myrrh?

It's a "fragrant, bitter-tasting gum resin."

So, when I found the gum, I suspected it might be myrrh, so I tasted
it.

It was bitter.

So I typed, "get the myrrh."  I ended up with the gum resin, so, that
clinched it for me. . . 

	- Ian


From tucker@vt.edu Tue Feb 20 09:17:36 CET 1996
Article: 12524 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: tucker@vt.edu (Tucker)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Infocom Novels
Date: 19 Feb 1996 19:10:18 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech
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References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960214232451.23256B-100000@general3.asu.edu> <4g592u$ma2@thor.cmp.ilstu.edu> <kjfair-1702962059500001@ngrh-34.rh.uchicago.edu> <A.Sithers-190296091353@as.pys.bris.ac.uk>
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>Does somebody fancy writing a review for those of us who haven't seen
>these.

i'll see what i can do.

Wishbringer, by Craig Shaw Gardner
It's vaguely similar to the game.  The premise is that the game happens 
over and over again, sort of as an ongoing attempt by Gladys ("The Evil 
One") to take over Festeron, but she keeps being stopped by Gail (the 
owner of the Magick Shoppe) and Hortense (the third sister).  It's very 
well-written, and a lot of fun.  Besides, it contains the line "Reality 
is losing its grip on me."

Planetfall and Stationfall, by Arthur Byron Cover
Didn't enjoy these terribly much.  They were amusing, yeah, but I just 
wasn't too impressed.  They're set _after_ the game Stationfall, which 
is... interesting... to say the least.  The hero is accompanied by Oliver 
and the ghost of Floyd.

Enchanter, by Robin W. Bailey
Unfortunately I haven't read this one lately, so I don't remember 
terribly much about it.  It's not really based on the game as such.  
Anesi, the apprentice wizard, goes off to fight something, but I can't 
recall what it is he's fighting.  I keep getting this one confused with 
Bailey's other infocom book, _The Lost City of Zork_.

The Zork Chronicles, George Alec Effinger
The best of the Infocom books, IMNSHO.  Prince Mirakles of the Elastic 
Tendon, accompanied by the supernatural guide Glorian of the Knowledge, 
journeys through the Great Underground Empire in search of the Golden 
Dipped Switch and the Hot Key to open the Scroll Lock.  Lots of 
references to the "nameless adventurer" who first explored the GUE.  Very 
good stuff.

The Lost City of Zork, Robin W. Bailey
Caspar Wartsworth, adventurer, goes off in search of fame and fortune.  
Set in the Zork universe.  Pretty good.  Lots of fun.

hope this helps.
--tucker



From ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu Tue Feb 20 09:19:07 CET 1996
Article: 12526 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Christopher E. Forman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Infocom Novels
Date: 19 Feb 1996 19:38:38 GMT
Organization: Village of Windhall
Lines: 67
Distribution: world
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Hope you don't mind if I add my own opinions

Tucker (tucker@vt.edu) wrote:
: Wishbringer, by Craig Shaw Gardner
: It's vaguely similar to the game.  The premise is that the game happens
: over and over again, sort of as an ongoing attempt by Gladys ("The Evil
: One") to take over Festeron, but she keeps being stopped by Gail (the
: owner of the Magick Shoppe) and Hortense (the third sister).  It's very
: well-written, and a lot of fun.  Besides, it contains the line "Reality
: is losing its grip on me."

Gardener's work is noted for this sort of humor, and he seems to have a good
grasp on the basic story, and even seemed to bring in some "puzzles" of his
own for the lead character to solve.   Overall a decent adaption.

: Planetfall and Stationfall, by Arthur Byron Cover
: Didn't enjoy these terribly much.  They were amusing, yeah, but I just
: wasn't too impressed.  They're set _after_ the game Stationfall, which
: is... interesting... to say the least.  The hero is accompanied by Oliver
: and the ghost of Floyd.

Oh, these could have been better, but they're not as awful as some readers
claim.  The humor was irritatingly juvenile in places, but I liked the scenes
with Blather and the admiral.  What's most frustrating is that the part about
Floyd being trapped in limbo is never resolved, as "FutureFall", the third in
the series, was never released.

: Enchanter, by Robin W. Bailey
: Unfortunately I haven't read this one lately, so I don't remember
: terribly much about it.  It's not really based on the game as such.
: Anesi, the apprentice wizard, goes off to fight something, but I can't
: recall what it is he's fighting.  I keep getting this one confused with
: Bailey's other infocom book, _The Lost City of Zork_.

He goes to fight the Unseen Terror.  This was okay, but Bailey made some
flubs with the Zork geography, and there were far too many similarities
carried over to LCOZ (I read LCOZ first, which meant this one seemed less
effective to me because of it).  Not as strong a story as LCOZ either.

: The Zork Chronicles, George Alec Effinger
: The best of the Infocom books, IMNSHO.  Prince Mirakles of the Elastic
: Tendon, accompanied by the supernatural guide Glorian of the Knowledge,
: journeys through the Great Underground Empire in search of the Golden
: Dipped Switch and the Hot Key to open the Scroll Lock.  Lots of
: references to the "nameless adventurer" who first explored the GUE.  Very
: good stuff.

Excellent book.  (Effinger, BTW, also wrote -- or, should I say, is writing
-- the Budayeen series, which inspired Circuit's Edge.  The fourth book is
due out this summer, with a fifth on the way.)  ZC is not only a good quest
story in its own right, but also an in-depth examination (and occasional
parody) of Joseph Campbell's monomyth theory.  The most memorable of the
Infocom books, with LCOZ a close second.

: The Lost City of Zork, Robin W. Bailey
: Caspar Wartsworth, adventurer, goes off in search of fame and fortune.
: Set in the Zork universe.  Pretty good.  Lots of fun.

Very good story, with lots of Zork history (Duncanthrax's taking over of the
Flathead Dynasty, the invention of Double Fannucci, the building of the GUE,
the conquering of Antharia) tied in.  Clever method of bringing the spells
from the Enchanter series into the story as well.

--
C.E. Forman                                      ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Read the I-F e-zine XYZZYnews, at ftp.gmd.de:/if-archive/magazines/xyzzynews,
   or on the Web at http://www.interport.net/~eileen/design/xyzzynews.html


From u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu Wed Feb 21 17:28:47 CET 1996
Article: 12579 of rec.games.int-fiction
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Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Grue Adventure I
Message-ID: <312a44f8.1491378@wvnvm.wvnet.edu>
From: u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu (bonni mierzejewska)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 17:04:28 -0500
Reply-To: u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu
References: <4dgmkd$jqa@news.ccit.arizona.edu> <4dohmo$vo@news.lth.se> <4drjh7$lvs@globe.indirect.com> <kjfair-2601960157070001@ngrh
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On 19 Feb 1996 08:05:56 GMT, dgilbert@bu.edu (David Gilbert) wrote:

> Don't forget "Melgrue's Place"

Or "The History of the Melgrues," which you find while searching your
attic for a map.  But first you must extinguish all light in the attic,
and soothe your Aunt Jemima Melgrue with chocolate-covered adventurers.
She will reward you for it, but you must remember that your favorite
colour is black]  Now where is that map?  You've heard so many good things
about how tasty the adventurers are in Paris....

bonni
coming soon - 1996 IF Competition entry
__   __
IC ! XC  !   bonni mierzejewska "The Lone Quilter"
---+---  !         u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu
NI ! KA  ! Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV


From erkyrath+@CMU.EDU Fri Feb 23 10:40:18 CET 1996
Article: 12623 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Zork Nemesis
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:29:06 -0500
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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adam@tucson.princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton) writes:
> In article <4gf9dc$qi4@thor.cmp.ilstu.edu>,
> Christopher E. Forman <ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
> >Not recycled from other I-F games, but seen before in countless logic-puzzle
> >books.  Examples include getting the right amount of water in the vial, and
> >getting the worm, chicken, and fox across the swamp.

And the towers of Hanoi, and Nim. The letter riddle (I forget the
answer) also counts, for me. And the peg-jumping thing.

> See, I didn't find this to detract from the game.
> 
> Let's face it, we all *knew* that Zork was an outgrowth of the logic puzzle
> genre.  And as long as there were some real IF-type puzzles in there (like
> the bird and the knight and the hardhat), I found the presence of the old
> chestnuts to be somewhere between comforting and nostalgiac.

tucker@vt.edu (Tucker) writes:
> see, i actually _enjoyed_ those.  since z0 was set so far before any of the 
> other games, it made sense to me that some of its puzzles would be 
> old-fashioned ones.
> but then, that's just me.

Well, I hated it. So there. They broke the mood, they weren't relevant
to the story, and I go into an adventure game expecting creativity,
not retreads.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."


From baf@laraby.tiac.net Fri Feb 23 14:47:02 CET 1996
Article: 12632 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!wizard.pn.com!sundog.tiac.net!laraby.tiac.net!baf
From: baf@laraby.tiac.net (Carl Muckenhoupt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Zork Nemesis
Date: 23 Feb 96 05:08:08 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
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NNTP-Posting-Host: laraby.tiac.net
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adam@tucson.princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton) writes:

>In article <4gf9dc$qi4@thor.cmp.ilstu.edu>,
>Christopher E. Forman <ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>Not recycled from other I-F games, but seen before in countless logic-puzzle
>>books.  Examples include getting the right amount of water in the vial, and
>>getting the worm, chicken, and fox across the swamp.

>See, I didn't find this to detract from the game.

>Let's face it, we all *knew* that Zork was an outgrowth of the logic puzzle
>genre.  And as long as there were some real IF-type puzzles in there (like
>the bird and the knight and the hardhat), I found the presence of the old
>chestnuts to be somewhere between comforting and nostalgiac.

I took it as the theme of the game.  After all, this is set *before* 
Zork, so the puzzles are pre-Zorkian.  To put it another way:  Zork Zero 
is the missing link between classic brain-teasers and what one might call 
an integrated puzzle environment.  (Another missing link is to be found 
in puzzle-stories like Masquerade.)  Megaboz wished to test you, and so 
presented you with obvious and discrete tests.  The Dungeon Master took 
his example, but improved upon it, making the tests subtler and his 
presence less obvious.  In short, the presence of classic puzzles in Zork 
Zero is, itself, the plot.

--
Carl Muckenhoupt              | Text Adventures are not dead!
baf@tiac.net                  | Read rec.[arts|games].int-fiction to see
http://www.tiac.net/users/baf | what you're missing!


From jcompton@flood.xnet.com Mon Feb 26 15:56:10 CET 1996
Article: 12642 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!news.xnet.com!jcompton
From: jcompton@flood.xnet.com (Jason Compton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Original Infocom Packages
Date: 23 Feb 1996 15:39:13 GMT
Organization: XNet - A Full Service Internet Provider - (708) 983-6064
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4gkn31$mma@flood.xnet.com>
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Christopher E. Forman (ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu) wrote:
: I just received a set of original Infocom packages today.  Not the mid-80's
: style packages with the box containing a depression in which disks and props
: were sealed over with a removable plastic cover, but earlier packages than
: that even.  These packages were flat, folder-style packages of Deadline,
: Planetfall, and Enchanter, _not_ the Solid Gold versions, but, apparently,
: among the very first releases of these games.  Each comes with a sticker
: bearing the "Interlogic" label.

: I'd never even known this type of package existed before.  Anyone else have
: these?

No, but similar packaging was used for the Commodore-published versions, 
except in general those didn't come with toys.  (For example, all the 
Deadline props are simply part of the black and white manual.)

Suspended DID come with the groovy map and robot caroms, though.

--
Jason Compton                                  jcompton@xnet.com
Editor-in-Chief, Amiga Report Magazine         (708) 741-0689 FAX
You know you're on the way out...              it's just a matter of time.
AR on Aminet - docs/mags/ar???.lha             AR Mailing list - Mail me
WWW - http://www.omnipresence.com/Amiga/News/AR, www.cucug.org/ar/ar.html


From jtilton@vt.edu Thu Feb 29 11:51:44 CET 1996
Article: 12794 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jtilton@vt.edu (Jay Tilton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Return to Zork - a lame question
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 01:24:24
Organization: Virginia Tech
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Frobnoid <frobnoid@wpi.edu> writes:
> I'd love to try and go through it w/o the book around... my friend asked
> me some and I got 3 out of 6 or 7 off the top of my head.

What a splendid idea.  It would make a neat trivia quiz.  Why not? 
Here goes.  See how many you can answer from memory.

Don't e-mail me your answers.  This is not a contest of any sort.
Gambling is prohibited.  Yadda yadda yadda.
-----
                   Zork Trivia Quiz

What is the 1st day of the week called?
What is the 2nd day of the week called?
What is the 3rd day of the week called?
What is the 4th day of the week called?
What is the 5th day of the week called?
What is the 6th day of the week called?
What is the 7th day of the week called?
The AMULET OF AGGTHORA played a role in the defeat of Jeearr in
      what year, GUE?
How many square bloits is the island province of ANTHARIA?
BARBEL OF GURTH, the tenth century arbiter and diplomat, is famous
      for inventing what spell?
BARBEL OF GURTH, the tenth century arbiter and diplomat, had a
      Double Fanucci handicap of what?
At what age did BELBOZ become Guildmaster of the Accardi Chapter of
      the Guild of Enchanters?
DUNCANTHRAX THE BELLICOSE, the first king of the Flathead Dynasty,
      died in what year?
In what year did ELVIS FLATHEAD hold his first concert?
In what year did LEONARDO FLATHEAD, while working on a large statue
      intended for the harbor of Antharia, took a fatal plunge into
      a vat of molten Granola?
FLOOD CONTROL DAM No.3, constructed in the year 783 to harness the
      mighty Frigid River, is how many feet tall at the center?
JUDY GARLIC starred in a movie musical production based on L. Frank
      Fzort's tales of which legendary kingdom?
The GRANOLA RIOTS took place on the 16th of what month in the year
      865 GUE?
Who carried GRUESLAYER, the legendary blade used to eliminate
      countless grues, the sinister, evil, lurking presences found
      throughout the underground empire?
What is the approximate time, in seconds, for a HELLHOUND to devour
      a human 12 times its own size?
THWACK OF MAREILON first classified the MOSS OF MAREILON in what
      year?
MYSTERION THE BRAVE, the second king of the Entharion Dynasty, took
      the throne in what year?
PEGGLEBOZ, a popular game of peg jumping, is played on a triangular
      board with how many holes?
The PHEE HOURGLASS, the priceless relic of the ancient city-state
      of Phee, was sold for how many zorkmids?
POPULAR ENCHANTING, magazine of choice for enchanters, costs how
      many zorkmids when purchased outside of Frobozz?
In the year 966, SNEFFLE, a member of the guild of bakers gave a
      speech to the Final Conclave of Enchanters detailing the
      failure of which spell?
In what year was the TREATY OF ZNURG signed?
In what year were the TWENTY TREASURES OF ZORK sought out and
      discovered by a brave young adventurer?
What little is known about UR-GRUES was gathered by a peasant in a
      first-hand encounter in what year?
The VERITASSI are quirky underground dwellers, who inhabit the
      region near which port?
True or False: The world rests on the head of a giant troll.
The ZORBEL PASS, the wide pass at the southern end of the Flathead
      Mountains, was the site of the Diablo Massacre of what year?
Which is the 1st month of the year?
Which is the 2nd month of the year?
Which is the 3rd month of the year?
Which is the 4th month of the year?
Which is the 5th month of the year?
Which is the 6th month of the year?
Which is the 7th month of the year?
Which is the 8th month of the year?
Which is the 9th month of the year?
Which is the 10th month of the year?
Which is the 11th month of the year?
Which is the 12th month of the year?
How many DOUBLE FANUCCI POINTS do you gain for a Full Foozle
      Progression?
How many DOUBLE FANUCCI POINTS do you gain for the Zibble Ploy?
How many DOUBLE FANUCCI POINTS do you gain for a Balsawood
      Convention?
How many DOUBLE FANUCCI POINTS do you gain for the Golden Fromp
      Clause?
How many DOUBLE FANUCCI POINTS do you gain for the Porridge
      Variation?
How many DOUBLE FANUCCI POINTS do you gain for Shy Openers?
How many DOUBLE FANUCCI POINTS do you gain for a Singleton in the
      3rd Frame?

--
Jay Tilton  |  jtilton@vt.edu
http://fbox.vt.edu:10021/J/jtilton/index.html


From johnf@thuridion.com Thu Mar 21 09:03:14 CET 1996
Article: 13210 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: John Francis <johnf@thuridion.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pratchett,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: *I* Adventure games (was Re: [ANNOT]  APF 7a.0 -- help wanted)
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:53:36 -0800
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Xref: news.lth.se alt.fan.pratchett:81316 rec.games.int-fiction:13210

> >> = Leo Breebaart
> >  = Roger Barnett
>    = Ian Sharrock

> >> Question: Is _Colossal Adventure_ indeed the name of this game, or should
> >> it be _Colossal Cave_ as one correspondent suggested?

> >The original game is called Adventure; most of the action in the game
> >(once you've found your way out of the house) takes place in Colossal
> >Cave, but that is not the name of the game.
> >
> >(Trust me on this one; I've just checked the program sources as provided
> > on a CD by those nice people at Digital
> > (the earliest comments in the source are dated 1977 and refer to this
> >  version being ported from the PDP-10 to the PDP-11 running IAS

> Swiss cheese memory time:  I'm sure that the original "adventure" was
> indeed coded on a DEC PDP by two of the founders of Infocom.  It went on
> to be used as a template for parts of 'Zork'.  If anybody's got the
> original game, I think it's mentioned in the 'about the author' parts.
> 
> I should be able to remember better - I was a beta-tester for Infocom
> about 10 years ago :-)


The game that later became the Infocom Zorks was sometimes called Zork,
and sometimes called Dungeon.  Adventure (ADVENT) was a different game.
>From the sources:

   The original Dungeon was created at the Programming Technology
   Division of the MIT Laboratory for Computer Science by Tim Anderson,
   Marc Blank, Bruce Daniels, and Dave Lebling.  It was inspired by the
   Adventure game of Crowther and Woods, and the long tradition of
   fantasy and science fiction games.  The original version was written
   in MDL (alias MUDDLE).

MDL ran on the PDP-10 line.  As the PDP-10 only had 6.3 filenames the
game file was called Zork, and referred to itself as such in some of
the in-game descriptive messages.  When it was ported to systems that
had longer filenames the game was normally called Dungeon.

If you haven't played the full version of Zork/Dungeon give it a try.
(If you have, but not in the last five years, see the next paragraph).
A shareware version that runs on many platforms is available using the
TADS system.  (look on ftp.gmd.de in the /if-archives/games section).
This ftp site also contains many versions of the original adventure.
My personal choice would be CCR (Colossal Cave Revisited), available
for TADS and for 'inform'. This implements the mainstream version of
adventure (not some of the derived 'extended' versions), but with a
command parser that is far superior to the originals VERB OBJECT.

The TADS version of Dungeon is derived from a Fortran version that is
available through DECUS. (Ported from the MDL version by a 'somewhat
paranoid' engineer.  Don't worry  - I won't give away your identity).
Apparently that version was updated in 1990 to include the last three
puzzles from the mainframe version. These are referred to as the
Palantir puzzle, the Last Point puzzle, and the Player Death puzzle.
Although a variation of the Palantir puzzle did show up in the Zork
I/II/III trilogy, I don't remember having seen the Last Point puzzle
since sometime about 1980 when one of the founders of Infocom (?Marc
Blank, I think) was porting the game using the DECSystem-2020 in the
Federal Systems Group at DEC while I was working there. The Player
Death puzzle I dont know about - by the time minicomputer versions
came along I knew the game so well I didn't die.
I kept toying with the idea of porting Dungeon to some other system
so that I could add in these last three puzzles, because I  thought
it would be a shame to lose them (and I didn't want to mess with the
ugly FORTRAN code). I'm glad someone else remembers them.



From erkyrath+@CMU.EDU Fri Mar 29 09:54:05 CET 1996
Article: 13452 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Lost New York -- Solved!
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 13:01:09 -0500
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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	<yxswx45tu15.fsf@stint.cl.cam.ac.uk>
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In-Reply-To: <yxswx45tu15.fsf@stint.cl.cam.ac.uk>

gdr11@cl.cam.ac.uk (Gareth Rees) writes:
> Christopher E. Forman <ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
> > Could we make this a policy for this group?
> 
> There's some tension here.  The author of a game probably doesn't want a
> walkthrough or spoiler file to be uploaded to ftp.gmd.de because (1)
> people will read the walkthrough rather than posting queries to
> rec.games.int-fiction, thus cutting out an important slice of
> advertising for the game; (2) the author may be selling walkthroughs and
> maps and doesn't appreciate being undercut.  But I'm sure all but the
> best players have needed to use walkthroughs at some point in their
> adventrue-playing career.  There's probably no hope for a "no
> walkthroughs" policy being made to stick.

I've already been snide about this, so I guess I should support my
reasoning... not only is there no hope for such a policy being
followed, we'd just wind up with an underground trade in walkthroughs.
"Email me if you've solved X. I want to talk." This is just an absurd
state of affairs. It also weakens the centrality of ftp.gmd.de as a
way to find information... maybe that's not a big deal, but I hate
having to search for what I want to know.

An author who relies on selling hints as a registration bonus is
already standing on shaky ground. Some people won't need hints; many
others will receive them gratis on this newsgroup. Uploading
hints or walkthroughs doesn't make much further impact on their sales,
IMHO.

The flurry of posts and queries about a game *is* important, on the
other hand. 

> Another walkthrough issue: why aren't these things better written?  Are
> they produced in the expectation that no-one will read them, or that the
> readers don't care?  A poor walkthrough is a missed opportunity, I
> think.  See <ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/solutions/Jigsaw.step>.

Well, that's another problem. :)

I'd also like to point out another distinction, which is between a
"bare" walkthough (just a list of commands) and a fully written-out
description of everything that happens when you solve the game.
Curiously, I prefer the former. It doesn't give away the story, or at
least very little of it. I was initially annoyed when someone uploaded
a walkthough for "Weather", but then I looked at it and realized, hey,
this doesn't reduce the impact of the game at all. If you go through
the game with the walkthough, you don't get the effect of pounding in
frustration on the universe for N hours, but the ending is still a
surprise when you get to it. Or however much of a surprise it's
supposed to be, anyway.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."


From ct@ecs.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr  9 16:27:47 MET DST 1996
Article: 13692 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: ct@ecs.ox.ac.uk (ct)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: New Game solved already: Gumshoe
Date: 4 Apr 1996 00:16:26 GMT
Organization: Oxford University
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In article <OLIPHANT.96Mar31184332@cogsci.cogsci.ucsd.edu>,
Mike Oliphant <oliphant@cogsci.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>Reluctantly, you crack a gluey eyelid to the world. Your head surges
>with pain, and you quickly shut it again.
>
>The whiskey gods were not kind to you last night.

Well, one (largish) shot of whisky (not that terrible american whiskey
rubbish either), and it was all over. Finishing games the day the came
out is not usually my forte, having spent about 6 months of Jigsaw on
and off, and Curses much longer, but this was just whizzed by...

A brief review
--------------

A nice, easy game. Wonderfully interactive scenery in places. Very
linear, with a simple, but happily straightforward plot. The author,
poor boy, is clearly american, as evidenced by his misspellings
throughout, so we have to forgive his occasional lapses when it comes
to describing the voyeuristic antics of his detective (and for those
without the benefit of a good bottle of malt, have one these :^)
instead!) Apart from the spellings, the prose is generally very good,
with some notable scene descriptions.

The characters were, well, distant. We never met the main baddy, and
it was all too easy to run up against the others' stock answer when
asking questions. The three thugs we meet at the start of the game
gave every impression of being cut from cardboard and painted with
black lines around the edges, so unreal did they seem. I had to love
the bartender though; a man with a great knowledge of important
(alcoholic) things.

The puzzles were few and (fairly) trivial to get through; the game is
small enough that brute-force antics could get you all the information
you need in very short order. Its certainly nothing like as hard as
every other inform game on gmd (excepting possible Tube and Library)

As in every new release, there are some small bugs, none of which impede
your progression (obviously!), so we won't mention them here.

Overall, it was a sweet little game which I enjoyed briefly, particularly
playing with the little toys left lying around. I'm just surprised it wasn't
a competition entry, as it seems a perfect length.

>Happy investigating!

Indeed!


regards, ct "hoping the whisky gods are kind to me tonight"


From ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu Tue Apr  9 16:31:04 MET DST 1996
Article: 13760 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Christopher E. Forman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Grues Want You!
Date: 6 Apr 1996 19:57:36 GMT
Organization: Village of Windhall
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X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]

Jason Corley (corleyj@lpl.arizona.edu) wrote:
: Let me know what you think.  This is my first-ever attempt at writing
: anything, and I need some expert advice.  Should I team up with someone
: or just knuckle under and learn it myself?

I've done both, so let me offer some comments.

Are you going to want to do this game your way and only your way, with
little or no creative input from anyone else?  If so, a co-author is not
the way to go.  If you can find someone who's content simply to program,
go for it, but I don't think you'll have much luck, so you may want to
consider doing it yourself.  (Hugo, TADS, and Inform are all relatively
easy to learn once you get a grasp of the basics.)

Now, if you don't mind letting someone else influence the overall design
of the game, and can find a co-author you work well with, and if you think
the game will turn out better in the long run, then by all means do that.

--
C.E. Forman                                      ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Read the I-F e-zine XYZZYnews, at ftp.gmd.de:/if-archive/magazines/xyzzynews,
   or on the Web at http://www.interport.net/~eileen/design/xyzzynews.html


From radams@winternet.com Tue Apr  9 16:34:44 MET DST 1996
Article: 13812 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: radams@winternet.com (Rick Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Updates to the Colossal Cave Adventure Page
Date: 9 Apr 1996 03:05:47 GMT
Organization: a Mac SE/30 somewhere in Minnesota
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Thanks to a lot of really nice people who have been sending me useful things
in my mailbox, the Colossal Cave Adventure Page now has:

* A set of GIF format maps of Colossal Cave.
* A walkthrough of the game.
* The ORIGINAL source of the game, in PDP-10 FORTRAN.
* A cute new XYZZY sighting.
* A prominent pointer to the extremely impressive IF Archives.

Point your web browsers to:

The Colossal Cave Adventure Page
http://www.winternet.com/~radams/adventure/

Next planned revision: an expanded history section, and as many cute
XYZZY sightings as I can gather.

I get from 100 to 200 visitors to my pages a day, and a lot of nice email
and contributions from people all over the world.  I'm having fun!

--
Rick Adams     radams@winternet.com     http://www.winternet.com/~radams/



From mjtilfor@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_DOMAIN_FILE Wed Apr 10 13:49:13 CED 1996
Article: 13832 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: mjtilfor@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_DOMAIN_FILE (Mark J Tilford)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: LOTTERY HELP
Date: 9 Apr 1996 22:35:33 GMT
Organization: Washington University in St. Louis, MO USA
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Kim Gall (kgall@interaccess.com) wrote:
: Has anyone played "Lottery"?  I am having  problems interacting with
: the characters in that game.  Is this another game with a weird
: parser?  Any help will be appreciated!

: Kim
: kgall@interaccess.com


This game was originally written for GAGS, a very crude text adventure 
creator, a precursor to AGT.  There were limited facilities for making 
puzzles:

Specials:  A room could have one "special";  if you take the proper item 
to the room and "push" "pull" "turn" or "play" it, the game will print a 
message and possibly move you to another room.

Locked doors/containers: normal

Creatures:  NPC's.  Can be hostile (will kill you after n turns and won't 
let you leave unless you kill them) or non.  They can be killed by 
shooting them with the proper weapon or throwing it at them.

Light sources:  You can see in some rooms only if you are carrying the 
right item.  No turning sources on/off.

Death rooms:  Some rooms will kill you instantly when you enter.

Win rooms:  SOme rooms will win when you enter.


That's basically all you can do with GAGS.

Mark J. Tilford


From mol@marvin.df.lth.se Sat Apr 20 18:35:00 CED 1996
Article: 14023 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!mol
From: mol@marvin.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Rediscovery of IF
Date: 20 Apr 1996 16:28:32 GMT
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Lines: 32
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In article <4l30v6$jt5@cnn.princeton.edu>,
Adam J. Thornton <adam@tucson.princeton.edu> wrote:
>In article <4l1s8i$cnu@aphex.direct.ca>, Cthulhu <patrickc@Direct.CA> wrote:

[ About "Uncle Zebulon's Will ]

>>And BTW, why is it that no-one else noticed that it's a Cthulhu-mythos game? 
>>The descriptions towards the end could have been pulled straight out of 
>>Lovecraft's "The Dream Quest  Of Unknown Kadath" story.
>
>Sure, the ending is Dunsanian or early-Lovecraftian, but the game is hardly
>a Mythos story.

Any resemblance to either Dunsany or Lovecraft is entirely unconscious.

But it is always interesting when other people see things in someone's
writing that the auhtor himself is blind to. It is doubly interesting when
the author happens to be me. :-)

Everything you read becomes part of your unconscious. Who knows what 
unspeakable creatures that may be summoned by the creative processes?

>
>I didn't see a single use of the word "unspeakable."  Lovecraft wouldn't
>have had a moderately friendly demon hanging out on the front porch.  There
>weren't enough squamous, or even rugose, blasphemous monstrosities
>deliquescing around the premises either.

Indeed. :-)

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se)


From mkinyon@peabody.iusb.indiana.edu Sun Apr 28 10:12:16 CED 1996
Article: 14169 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: mkinyon@peabody.iusb.indiana.edu (Michael Kinyon)
Subject: Re: Who's best/worst at I-F?
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In article <Pine.SGI.3.93.960424115314.4195A-100000@ebor.york.ac.uk>,
Den of Iniquity  <dmss100@york.ac.uk> wrote:
>Then this person, having accumulated scores (as percentages of the maximum
>score) by numerous people on many adventures can try to figure out some
>averages and declare the world's greatest and world's most amateur
>adventurer                                                 ^^^^^^^

One minor quibble: using the modern meaning of "amateur", I believe none
of us are paid to play these games, so I'm not sure how one of us could
be more "amateur" than anyone else.  (OK, now everyone who plays games
while at work can jump in make some crack.)  Even using the original meaning 
of the word, it does not connote the idea you are trying to convey.

How about "lousy"?

>Obviously this is yet another one the
>playtesters can't enter, the poor dears.

*sigh* the sacrifices we make....  In fact, one reason I got hooked
on playtesting is that I am a lousy player (as authors who have had to
bail me out of fixes can attest).   In fact I started testing in earnest
in the belief that the only way I could convince an author to give me
a hint was to trade a bug report.  Later I discovered that most authors
of the nonZarf persuasion are more than willing to give a nudge, but by
then I was addicted to trying to break things, so it was too late.

>I'm only doing this so I can say conclusively that I'm worse than
>everbody else...

I'm glad you act on the basis of well-founded principles.  In any case, 
I don't see what harm your idea could do, so modulo working out the details, 
why not?

-- 
Michael Kinyon                  | email: mkinyon@peabody.iusb.edu
Dept of Mathematics & Comp. Sci.| http://sun1.iusb.edu/faculty/mkinyon/
Indiana University South Bend   | phone: (219)-237-4240
South Bend, IN 46634 USA        | fax:   (219)-237-4538


From daly@PPD.Kodak.COM Fri May  3 14:07:54 CED 1996
Article: 14302 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: daly@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Spellbreaker thoughts *SPOILERS*
Date: 2 May 1996 14:42:08 GMT
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In article <4m9gtp$1en@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> steph@lager.engsoc.carleton.ca (Stephane Racle) writes:
>Christopher E. Forman (ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu) wrote:
>: [SPOILERS for Spellbreaker follow!!!]
>
>
>
>
>: IMO, this technique worked in "Spellbreaker" because it obviated the need
>: to map the game (though note-taking was still necessary).  It also made it
>: possible to quickly travel from any one place to any other place, and
>: linking some of the areas by alternate routes created a sense of
>: connectivity that I personally found pleasing, though I can certainly
>: understand why others might not.
>
>I think that this was my major critic of the game. That extreme disconnected 
>style did not work for me... and the entire game is based on it.
>
>: Enchanter: Infiltrate castle, destroy evil, save world.
>
>Well. I'd say Enchanter was a game of discovery. It's the first game with 
>spells, so we have no previous experience of them. Yes, it's the classic 
>'kill the bad guy and save the world' game[...]

Well, it's classic now, but at the time it was one of the first
games that didn't involve gathering a bunch of "treasures" and
putting them in a "trophy case".  I mean, it sort of did, if you
think of spells as "treasures" and your spellbook as the "trophy
case", but it was still a breakaway game.

>: Sorcerer: Pass through strange land, destroy evil, save Belboz, save world.
>
>I thought Sorcerer was great. The head of the Circle of Enchanters has 
>disappeared, nobody knows where he is. All of the Enchanters are 
>gone at your guild. You know a some evil force is involved, but you do 
>not know what it is. You have to explore a strange land, yes, but this 
>time you have some experience with your spells and powers. 

I guess I don't get this distinction that you do that you're in the
Circle of Enchanters instead of being a neophyte.  You have just about
the same number of spells in your book at the beginning of the game,
and IIRC, you still have to memorize rezrov and gnusto before you
can cast them.  (At least I think it wasn't until Spellbreaker that
you didn't have to memorize the simplest of spells....)  Saying it
another way, if you played Sorcerer before Enchanter, you wouldn't
be all that hampered by not playing the first game (as long as you
understood the documentation.)

>: Though frustrating at the time, it now seems very clever that David Lebling
>: decided to toy with the possibility of leaving the box behind.  Thus
>: "Spellbreaker" actually rewards players for deviating from the "take
>: everything with you at all times" I-F convention.  I thought it was
>: brilliant.
>
>I agree here, I have no problems with the puzzles in the game. I was just 
>mentionning how some were almost impossible to figure out.

I also thought it was cheap, but after reading some of the comments,
I guess a really sharp-minded person could have figured it out.  All
the same, it would have been more fair if you woke up on one side
of a ledge with all of your possessions on another ledge except for
one cube, just to put the notion in the users mind that the box
could be used like that. 

>I agree here again, most puzzles are extremely satisfying to solve 
>because they are all very logical, yet require careful thought and a lot 
>of experimentation.

I thought that the endgame was particularly brilliant, because it
involved lateral thinking.  Going into it thinking "How can I
destroy the bad guy" isn't going to get you very far.

>Well, anyways, glad to share views on my favourite games!

Me too.  I've seen a lot of magic-based IF (the Spellcaster *01
series, LOOM, Kyrandia 2) but the three originals still take the cake!
For myself, though, I'll say that Enchanter was the best, followed by
Spellbreaker and Sorcerer at the bottom (although the time travel
puzzle is probably the most classic in IFdom, even if it's been done
better in the meantime.)

-Matthew Daly




From ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu Fri May  3 17:24:50 CED 1996
Article: 14306 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Christopher E. Forman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Spellbreaker thoughts *SPOILERS*
Date: 2 May 1996 15:40:49 GMT
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Stephane Racle (steph@lager.engsoc.carleton.ca) wrote:
: I thought Sorcerer was great. The head of the Circle of Enchanters has
: disappeared, nobody knows where he is. All of the Enchanters are
: gone at your guild. You know a some evil force is involved, but you do
: not know what it is. You have to explore a strange land, yes, but this
: time you have some experience with your spells and powers. Once again,
: you do need to kill the bad guy to save the world, but for all the
: criticism this kind of game gets (unoriginal, boring, etc), it can be very
: effective when well-implemented.

I wasn't saying it can't.  The stories of "Enchanter" and "Sorcerer" simply
weren't as complex/involved/whatever as "Spellbreaker."  I personally like
"save the world" stories, but "Sorcerer" felt less like a story and more
like a bunch of unrelated puzzles thrown together into what Infocom could
pass off as a game.  (Which it was, since "Sorcerer" was built from the
elements of "Dungeon" that didn't fit into the Zork Trilogy.)

: I understand why
: you think the fact that the evil is really your dark side, and you've
: been played from the start. If you've never seen that before, it's a
: great story. But I've read stories similar to this over and over again.

Well obviously I, like you, have READ it before.  It's a very common plot
device.  I simply hadn't PLAYED this type of story before "Spellbreaker."

A common experience in books can be an innovation in I-F if it's never been
done before.  And the technique in "Spellbreaker"'s ending hadn't at the
time.  Look at "AMFV."  When compared to existing books, it's quite
derivative of "Brave New World" and "1984," but when compared to other I-F
it's unique.

--
C.E. Forman                                      ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Read the I-F e-zine XYZZYnews, at ftp.gmd.de:/if-archive/magazines/xyzzynews,
   or on the Web at http://www.interport.net/~eileen/design/xyzzynews.html
Vote I-F in 1996!  Visit http://www.xs4all.nl/~jojo/pcgames.html for info!


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Sat May  4 10:32:23 CED 1996
Article: 14324 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Moral Choices in IF Games? (was: Trouble's a-brewin')
Date: 2 May 1996 17:33:45 GMT
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In article <4maofh$1lk@castor.usc.edu>,
Jacob Solomon Weinstein <jweinste@castor.usc.edu> wrote:
>
>This is a good point. It might be worth distinguishing between 
>fiction that makes a moral statement and fiction that makes a moral argument.

It certainly is. :)

>Based on what you (and others) have said about Ultima IV, it makes a 
>moral statement: it is good to give money to beggars, etc. This, I think, 
>is how much of IF deals with morality. The author assumes that you will 
>share his or her moral beliefs, and they are therefore a given in the 
>game, just like the presence of magic or laser guns. This is what I meant 
>when I said that many IF games beg the moral questions they raise.

Well, the early part of the Ultima series was excellent.  There was a 
certain amount of biblical imagery, which partially explains where the 
morals in it come from.  However, those of you who have played Ultima 8 
will know what I mean when I say "BAD ORIGIN!  NO BISCUIT!" <The spoilers 
for the games will be included at the end of this post.>

>So, I would agree with you that just rewarding the player for behaving 
>morally is not very effective, but I'd also argue that your notion of a 
>morally neutral game is not the 
>best or most interesting way to deal with morality. It's fine to let the 
>player choose to act morally or immorally--but a clever IF author would 
>persuade them through the way the story unfolds that the choice should or 
>should not have been made. 

Hmm, I dunno about that.  It can be done right, like Brian Moriarty does 
it (but then, he's the best game writer I've seen.) and then it can be 
done wrong, like the end of Shades of Grey (spoilers at end.)


SPOILERS DOWN BELOW FOR ULTIMA 8 AND SHADES OF GREY!























Ultima 8: You are forced in Ultima 8 to pretty much violate all your 
codes of virtue in order to return to Britania.  This is crap.  I worked 
so hard in Ultima 4 to become a paragon of virtue, then maintained it in 
Ultima 5-6, haven't played 7 yet.  But anyways, you are not given any way 
to avoid violating your own moral code.  I kept waiting to see "Thou hast 
lost an eighth!" flash at me.  No dice.  I say again, Ultima 8 was an 
example of how to screw up your carefully established world setting.  
Make it into a nintendo game and leech all the morality out of it after 
already having established it as a moralistic game.









Shades of Grey: This game was great, right up until the ending.  Then, 
pow.  I am forced to make a moral judgement that is fairly ambiguous.  I 
do so.  I say "The ends do not justify the means." and stop an 
assassination of a (granted) evil man.  I am told at that point that I 
was basically wrong.  I go back and try the other choice, and have him 
bumped off.  Wow, a better win.  Hmm, gee, thank you authors for telling 
me how screwed up my system of morals is.  <Whips out rolled up newspaper>
"BAD AUTHORS!  BAD!"  At least, I really didn't appreciate it.
-- 
	"Unspeakable glyphs discolor the filth-blackened walls of this 
infernal sanctum.  Scribed in the center of the room is a blood red 
circle inscribed with a silver pentagram."
		-An excerpt from "Avalon", a game under construction.


From ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu Sat May  4 21:51:46 CED 1996
Article: 14327 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Christopher E. Forman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Spellbreaker thoughts *SPOILERS*
Date: 1 May 1996 15:05:05 GMT
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[SPOILERS for Spellbreaker follow!!!]





Stephane Racle (steph@lager.engsoc.carleton.ca) wrote:
: Well, here are my thoughts. I would appreciate any comments.

That's what we're here for.

: Overall, I had mixed feelings. I thought the game was weaker than
: Enchanter, and even weaker than Sorcerer. It was a good game, much better
: than most of today's adventure games, but it wasn't Infocom's best.
: Personally, I didn't like the fact that you were always BLORPLEing to
: another cube... I would have liked if the world remained... connected.
: This seemed to me like a lot of disconnected parts, that were also
: somewhat connected (for example, you could fly to the guard tower and the
: roc's nest from almost anywhere).

Opinions about disconnected game parts vary, as does the use of them in a
particular title.  "Spellbreaker" is perhaps the most extreme use to date,
but other games such as "Trinity," "Jigsaw," "Curses," "HHGG," and even, to
some extent, "LGOP" and "AMFV" (with the different planets and years,
respectively) employ this technique effectively.

IMO, this technique worked in "Spellbreaker" because it obviated the need
to map the game (though note-taking was still necessary).  It also made it
possible to quickly travel from any one place to any other place, and
linking some of the areas by alternate routes created a sense of
connectivity that I personally found pleasing, though I can certainly
understand why others might not.

: Another thing, I found the story a bit weak. The fact that the cubes were
: the basic 'elements' for the world was fine with me. Except, I'm not so
: sure about finding them randomly, all over the place. There was also a
: lack of explanation for why the cubes allowed exits to those places... I
: also think that the evil was... your shadow... well, I think that was a
: little weird. I found it a little anticlimatic, just like the ending.

For me, the story of "Spellbreaker" was the strongest of any game in the
enchanter trilogy.

Enchanter: Infiltrate castle, destroy evil, save world.

Sorcerer: Pass through strange land, destroy evil, save Belboz, save world.

Spellbreaker: Everyone at a guild meeting, except yourself is turned into a
              reptile.  Find out why by investigating a strange cube left
              behind for you, leading to the discovery of other cubes, all
              culminating in a battle of good-vs-evil against...YOURSELF!
              (This really came as a surprise to me on my first play.)
              Learn that the cubes control the foundation of the universe,
              and that your dark side has been playing you from turn one,
              using you to do the dirty work of gathering the cubes.  Stop
              the shadow by redefining the universe yourself, but destroying
              magic in the process.  (It may appear anticlimactic, but at
              least it's original for an I-F game.)

Hmm.  Which of the three above has more to it?

The cubes themselves represent the basic elements of the world of Zork,
allowing their bearer to travel to places/situations that most represent
those elements.  I also got the distinct impression that some places (in
particular the plain with the rocks and the vault) were not part of the
normal Zork world, but of a higher/lower dimension (like Atrii), thus
ensuring that only someone with access to these other plains (someone like
your mysterious shadow) could gain access to all the cubes.

: As for some of the puzzles, I know this is an Expert game, but... I
: didn't need many hints to complete it, yet I'm not sure I would have ever
: figured out some of the puzzles. For example, the fact that you can
: BLORPLE to the box by the magic exit. Well I'm not sure I would have ever
: thought of that. And the fact that you had to 'recreate the future'. Well
: that was difficult. I figured out the sand room had something to do with
: time.. but I'm not sure I would have thought about the answer to the puzzle.

I didn't get the magic box either, but the game sort of gives you a hint
in the fact that you find the box with a cube already in it, and that the
carvings on the box (dolphins, if I recall) correspond to the "water"
element of that particular cube.  Thus when you reach the water area, if
you left the box behind, you'd be able to exit from every direction (i.e.,
you wouldn't have one of those "can't seem to force through it" exits).
This might lead you to investigate the box further.

Though frustrating at the time, it now seems very clever that David Lebling
decided to toy with the possibility of leaving the box behind.  Thus
"Spellbreaker" actually rewards players for deviating from the "take
everything with you at all times" I-F convention.  I thought it was
brilliant.

: Well now, some good things about the game. I found it well-written and
: enjoyable. Most puzzles were challenging but not impossible. There were
: some *great* ones, such as the compass rose maze, the cubes in the vault,
: and the water-room/oubliette one. Most others were good too, like the
: rockfall, and the idol.

The puzzles were quite difficult, but the game made me _want_ to solve them.
The only ones I needed much help with were climbing the cliff at the very
beginning and the compass rose maze.  (In case you're wondering, I managed
to overcome being stuck at the cliff ledge by accidentally stumbling onto
the famous girgol/blorple bug in early releases that allowed players to
escape the ogre by hiding in the nondescript room, which really threw me
off for awhile.)  But there was an immense sense of sastisfaction in
solving the oubliette, the idol, and, in particular, the endgame.

: On the other hand, I would have liked some more spells... Well overall,
: let me say I was a bit disappointed, but only because of my
: expectations. I was told the game was one of Infocom's best.

I came into "Spellbreaker," years ago, expecting something more along the
lines of "Enchanter" and "Sorcerer," but ended up getting more than what
I'd hoped for.

"Enchanter" was the first Infocom game I ever played ("Zork I" was second,
and "Adventure" was my first ever), so I was fascinated by it and thought
(and still think) that it's terrific.

"Sorcerer" was my biggest disappointment from Infocom.  Not only was it
a letdown compared to Steve Meretzky's other works, but it felt as if the
game itself was just a bunch of mostly unrelated puzzles thrown together
(which, as those of you familiar with "Dungeon" know, it basically was).
Granted, the Glass Maze and the coal mine puzzles were great, but aside
from that it just felt too ramshackle compared to the other entries in
the series.

--
C.E. Forman                                      ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Read the I-F e-zine XYZZYnews, at ftp.gmd.de:/if-archive/magazines/xyzzynews,
   or on the Web at http://www.interport.net/~eileen/design/xyzzynews.html
Vote I-F in 1996!  Visit http://www.xs4all.nl/~jojo/pcgames.html for info!


From erkyrath+@CMU.EDU Sat May  4 21:52:01 CED 1996
Article: 14316 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Spellbreaker thoughts *SPOILERS*
Date: Fri,  3 May 1996 02:43:36 -0400
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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jweinste@castor.usc.edu (Jacob Solomon Weinstein) writes:
> "Andrew C. Plotkin" <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU> writes:
> 
> >Mmm, maybe. It was a good idea (recreating the universe as necessary),
> >but it didn't come off well. I think it would have made a good ending
> >to a book, but it was anticlimactic to play. But then, I don't know
> >how I would have fixed it.
> 
> Actually, let me speak out in favor of the ending. I thought it was 
> extremely moving and clever, for a number of reasons:

[see his original post for the reasons]

I think that's exactly what I meant by "it would have made a good
ending to a book." In terms of storyline, it was good. When I consider
*what happened*, I'm very pleased. All the reasons you list are part
of what I liked.

But when I consider how those events-of-the-story were presented to
me, it's all somehow way off.  Something about the timing, I think. I
spent too many real-time minutes experimenting around in the climax of
the story -- the part that would have been high-pitched and
overwhelming in, say, a movie. Then, once I did the right thing, it
all dropped off too quickly, and I somehow got the feeling that the
important part had actually happened several minutes back, and I just
had to tidy up some details. 

I hope that's fairly comprehensible ranting; I'm trying to remember an
emotional reaction from way too many years ago, and it's probably not
coming out very well.

And, like I said, I don't have a good suggestion about how it could
have been done better.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."


From jweinste@castor.usc.edu Sat May  4 21:52:54 CED 1996
Article: 14341 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jweinste@castor.usc.edu (Jacob Solomon Weinstein)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Moral Choices in IF Games? (was: Trouble's a-brewin')
Date: 2 May 1996 09:39:13 -0700
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neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov (Damien Neil) writes:

>I feel that this is the wrong way to go about adding moral choices to
>a game.  By rewarding `moral' decisions, and penalizing `immoral' ones,
>the actual moral dimension is lost; the player is required to determine
>what the author considered to be moral, rather than analyze her own
>opinions on the options available.

This is a good point. It might be worth distinguishing between 
fiction that makes a moral statement and fiction that makes a moral argument.

Based on what you (and others) have said about Ultima IV, it makes a 
moral statement: it is good to give money to beggars, etc. This, I think, 
is how much of IF deals with morality. The author assumes that you will 
share his or her moral beliefs, and they are therefore a given in the 
game, just like the presence of magic or laser guns. This is what I meant 
when I said that many IF games beg the moral questions they raise.

A more effective and satisfying way of dealing with moral issues is to 
make a moral argument--to show the player the consequences of actions 
that you, the author, consider immoral. I posted earlier that Trinity 
begs the moral question by simply assuming that nuclear weapons are bad, 
but it occurs to me that it makes a very effective moral argument at one 
point. (SPOILERS FOR TRINITY FOLLOW:)















Early in the game, you see a disfigured woman with an umbrella. Later in 
the game, you see a child to whom you give the umbrella just before a 
nuclear bomb is dropped. For me, it was a very effective moment of 
realization when I realized that the child would grow up into the 
disfigured woman. Brian Moriarty (the game's author) had managed to 
demonstrate to me the human cost of nuclear weapons, rather than just 
stating that they are immoral. And, for me at least, the fact that I had 
given the child the umbrella made her injuries particularly personal. In 
a sense, it was because of me that she had grown up to be that woman with 
the umbrella, and I therefore felt strangely complicit in her tragedy.

Think how much more effective this moral argument is than the moral 
statement that might be made by the following sequence:

You are above the city.
>drop bomb
Oops. The bomb explodes prematurely, killing you. 
*You have been punished for your sins.*

So, I would agree with you that just rewarding the player for behaving 
morally is not very effective, but I'd also argue that your notion of a 
morally neutral game is not the 
best or most interesting way to deal with morality. It's fine to let the 
player choose to act morally or immorally--but a clever IF author would 
persuade them through the way the story unfolds that the choice should or 
should not have been made. 

-Jacob


From ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu Mon May  6 09:26:18 CED 1996
Article: 14368 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Christopher E. Forman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Infocom of old...
Date: 1 May 1996 23:04:58 GMT
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Jon A. Preston (gt5048a@acmey.gatech.edu) wrote:
: A new game would come out, so Infocom would go to a college campus before
: the release.  I guessed that they wanted to "rate" the difficulty (but now
: thing that also they wanted a beta test), so they had a contest with a few
: groups, each of about 4 people?
: They would lock the groups up in rooms with pizza and coke, etc.  And they
: would time them to see how long it took the groups to "Beat" the game.
: First group to complete would win.

Yes, I've heard of this.

In fact, the "Spellbreaker" hint book (since we're talking about
"Spellbreaker" in another thread) mentions this.

[SPOILERS!!]









On fixing the hypercube, the book mentions that "The favorite item of
Boston area college students is the smoked fish."  Evidently this came
from one of the sessions you mention.

--
C.E. Forman                                      ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Read the I-F e-zine XYZZYnews, at ftp.gmd.de:/if-archive/magazines/xyzzynews,
   or on the Web at http://www.interport.net/~eileen/design/xyzzynews.html
Vote I-F in 1996!  Visit http://www.xs4all.nl/~jojo/pcgames.html for info!


From mike@lawlib.wm.edu Wed May  8 14:30:07 CED 1996
Article: 14424 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: mike@skaro.lawlib.wm.edu (Mike Phillips)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Ultima as IF (was Re: Trouble's a-brewin')
Date: 7 May 1996 21:33:36 GMT
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On 7 May 1996 14:39:27 GMT, Matthew Daly <daly@PPD.Kodak.COM> wrote:
>I should have said that U4 comes as close to IF as any RPG that I
>have ever seen, though.  Someone could (and should!) write a
>game of that sort of magnitude that involves interacting with
>people and items and gaining information and skills without
>battles; it would fill a niche, I believe.  (Kinda like a
>non-linear Carmen Sandiego game.)

In some ways, Ultima 6 fits the bill rather well.  Using only those 
items available from the beginning of the game, it is quite possible 
to *avoid* much of the fighting, leaving only those few fights that 
advance the plot (e.g. the thief under Britain).  Even then, if you 
get "clever" you can bypass the whole map sub-plot, which cuts out 
most of the remaining fighting in the overarching story.  That leaves
*lots* of time to wander around talking to the townsfolk, discovering
the little things that make them tick, solving local people-problems
(like the mis-communication between the undertaker and his gravedigger), 
and just generally enjoying the world.

Ultima 6 is the *only* Ultima that (IMO) has tremendous re-play value.
I-III were so beat-em-up they were barely RPG's, IV was cool but the 
*depth* of the world was missing, V was a pain (fun in parts, but 
overall weak), VII was Too Much (and the new interface stank), and
we'll just ignore VIII (so, when was Origin bought by Sierra, 
exactly?).

Ultima 6, however, was a very nice balance.  It could be an overbearing
hack-n-slash if that's the way you want it.  Or, it could be a long 
and careful exploration of the world and its people.  Or it could be a
save-the-world thing.

The story pointed out that there are two sides to a story, and I think
handled it rather well.  I felt like it unfolded without being 
gratuitously convoluted.

I suspect that most people did not take the time to experiment and find
ways of solving problems *without* fighting.  I did, and it was a 
wonderful thing :-)

It's the only Ultima I still keep on my hard drive.

    Mike Phillips, mike@lawlib.wm.edu




From jawells@crl.com Wed May  8 20:52:30 CED 1996
Article: 14433 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jawells@crl.com (Jason A. Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Trouble's a-brewin'
Date: 7 May 1996 19:45:08 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access
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daly@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly) writes:

[Discussion on battless RPGs and IF snipped.]

>>At any rate, I'd say that Ultima IV and V definitely qualify as IF.
>>Probably V moreso; IV is more innovative, but V had more of a story.
>V had a plot that you needed to follow.  IV was open-ended, which
>is something that I've never seen before.  The purpose of IV was
>to wander around being a good example for people, and only after
>twenty hours of play did you get a sense of what shape the endgame
>would take.  A little more like life, I would hasten to say.

That was actually a part of Ultima IV that I enjoyed greatly.

I can't remember the source, but I read an interview in which 
Richard Garriot (sp?) was discussing the Ultima series.  In it,
he had words to this effect:

	"All of the other adventures seemed to have this great
theme of You're the Big Hero (tm).  And you were supposed to kill
the Big Nasty (tm) just because that it was the instructions said
to do."

	"No-one ever said 'Go on the quest of the Avatar'; you had
to decide to do it yourself.  I wanted to make it a more personal 
thing with the player, sort of a quest for the Holy grail."

There were a lot of other games out (and still are) that involved
taking advantage of everyone the player meets along the way, killing
innocent people and such to find the magic item the player needs to 
win the game.

That got stale.  Fast.  The Ultima games were sort of a refreshing
change of pace from the Big Hero (tm) type of games, where a 
quick wit and problem solving skills took dominance over big swords
and lucky dice rolls.  Not many RPGs, and a little IF, take the time
to give personalities and even /names/ to each actor in the game.

Actually fleshing out the actors is a virtue often ignored in computer
entertainment, IF, RPG, or otherwise.  Many games I've played offered
a simple "WE SELL WEAPONS. BUY/SELL?"

Granted, doing this is a /very/ difficult task, but when it comes down 
to having five-minute conversations with Yotomo the arms dealer of Yew
in Ultima VI, it truly makes a world of difference.

Oh, now I've rambled off topic again..e

--jaw
-- 
Jason A. Wells (jawells@crl.com) (gumboots@virtvil.metronet.com) [INTJ]
This message was brought to you by the language C and the number F.


From steph@lager.engsoc.carleton.ca Thu May  9 09:35:11 CED 1996
Article: 14441 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: steph@lager.engsoc.carleton.ca (Stephane Racle)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Best Infocom packages
Date: 8 May 1996 03:07:32 GMT
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I'm interested in knowing what people think about Infocom packages, so
here is my top ten list of the best Infocom packages (and probably best 
packages of any games, I can think of only one or two non-Infocom games with 
comparable packaging), along with the reasons for my choices... Notice 
that most are older Infocom packages (only a few grey boxes), but I think 
that is very justifiable.


# 10 - Wishbringer

A stone that actually glows in the dark? Pretty cool, I'd say. 
Also, nice envelope, and great manual back cover.

# 9 - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Peril sensitive sunglasses, fluff, microscopic space fleet... Don't 
Panic! 

# 8 - The Witness (original folder packaging)

Very good manual. Elements that really set the mood for the game 
The matchbook is a nice touch. 

# 7 - Leather Godesses of Phobos

What other package includes a 3D comic complete with glasses, and as if 
it wasn't enough, a (stinky!) scratch 'n sniff card?

# 6 - Planetfall (original folder)

Very funny and very well designed. Includes great elements, like the 
ID card, the postcards, and the blank stationnery.

# 5 - Infidel (original folder)

The map and cube rubbing are on nice semi-transparent paper.  There are
many pieces of stationnery, including an envelope with an actual postage
stamp - of no real use, but a great touch. It's great to follow the 
progression of the letter.

# 4 - Socerer (original folder)

The Infotater. Plus... "...Gaze now into the amulet of Aggthora and let 
be revealed the one valorous enough to rescuer the land and earn the 
title of SORCERER". Wow. A classic.

Top 3... I had a lot of difficulty deciding between those 3.

# 3 - Deadline (original folder)

A game package that is so much more... It's a case folder, with MANY 
elements: pills, a picture, a memo, a coroner's report, an interview 
excerpt... Everything is carefully thought out. The sticker sealing the 
folder is a very nice touch.

# 2 - Starcross (flying saucer)

Hey, this is a computer game! It certainly doesn't look like it... The
contents might be pretty simplistic (although it is a nice map), but the
saucer defines the package. Definitely the most original package I've 
ever seen. A classic.

# 1 - Suspended (mask packaging)

All packages ought to be this good. The white mask is fantastic, but put
the game manual behind it and look through the mask's eyes... Spooky. 
Then take a look at the manual's cover. There's a sign of something
seriously wrong going on... One of the best game manuals in one of the
most original games ever made. High-quality map of the complex.  Another
classic package that really, really sets the mood for the game.


Honourable mentions to: 

-Suspect
-Bureaucracy (very funny package)
-Trinity
-Enchanter folder


Well, these are my favourite packages. You might disagree, but 
I'm sure that you'll at least agree in part with my observations. I 
welcome any comments, in fact, I want to hear some comments! One thing is 
sure though... They don't make them like they used to...

Cheers,
Stephane

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephane Racle                                       steph@engsoc.carleton.ca 
Aerospace Engineering                    http://www.engsoc.carleton.ca/~steph
Carleton University


From sachavan@scunix4.harvard.edu Thu May  9 09:35:19 CED 1996
Article: 14444 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: sachavan@scunix4.harvard.edu (Sarinee Achavanuntakul)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best Infocom packages
Date: 8 May 1996 07:04:48 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
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	I agree with your list. While we're on the subject, what OTHER 
games do people think come in similarly atmospheric packaging? I can 
think of several...

	- Ultima 4,5,6: these have nifty little gadgets included (orb for
	 		Ultima 6, Avatar symbol for 4) not to mention nice
			cloth maps

	- Corruption:   This game by Magnetic Scrolls has a 30-minute audio
			tape that's one of the evidence in the game (like
			Deadline's pills)

	- Loom:		comes with nice 30-minute audio tape that contains
			background information (and good music)

	- Space Rogue:  Comes with a small novella, start chart, 2 paper
			starships cut-outs (like Trinity's sundial), and
			a newspaper ad. IMHO this is one of Origin's best
			packaging
	
	- Dragonworld:  This oldie from Telarium comes in nice big folder,
		 	with a nice dragon sticker

	Feel free to add to the list. More recently, I'm impressed with 
Wing Commander 3's "Deluxe Edition" that includes a T-shirt, videotape, 
calendar, film canister, etc. But then I paid a lot for it.... <sigh>.

	-Sarinee



From mollems@pulsar.wku.edu Thu May  9 09:37:29 CED 1996
Article: 14439 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: mollems@pulsar.wku.edu (M. Sean Molley)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Trouble's a-brewin'
Date: 8 May 1996 05:04:58 GMT
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In article <gurgle>, Matthew Daly <daly@PPD.Kodak.COM> wrote:

>I hadn't thought about that, but I guess you're right.  Flashy
>graphics aren't a part of my D&D experience, it's more like 
>text and the occasional hand-drawn map, and describing my
>instructions verbally to the DM.  Has there ever been a time that
>someone has tried running, say, Zork I as a solo-player campaign?
>It would be interesting to see in what ways problems would be
>solved that the parser wouldn't understand.

Actually, yes.  I have run AD&D players on adventures which incorporated 
the entire puzzle structure (but not necessarily the plot) of Zork I and 
II, Trinity, and Beyond Zork.  The last of these was obviously the most 
suitable to adaptation.

The disadvantage to using such puzzles in an AD&D game can be summarized 
in a single word: MAGIC.  Dungeons and Dragons characters have access to 
a far wider variety of magical spells than do Infocom protagonists.  
There are more "first level" spells in the _Player's Handbook_ than in 
all of the Enchanter Trilogy combined.

One way to avoid this, of course, is to restrict your players to exactly 
the same set of items which are available in the original text adventure 
setting (plus whatever other basic equipment you deem necessary).  Doing 
this, of course, requires substantial contrivance on the part of the DM 
to separate the player characters from all of their hard-earned 
equipment.  My solution was just to let them keep everything they had and 
see what developed.  I was fortunate to be able to avoid the magic 
problem altogether because the PC's consisted of only a fighter and a 
thief (my feeling being that a larger group of PC's would cause far more 
problems).  

Of course, I also added in a few locations of my own, as well as some 
more "traditional" D&D fare (more combat encounters, for one thing).  The 
result was a smashing success.  It went so well, in fact, that I had the 
same two players "live-test" my own interactive fiction game, Challenge 
of the Czar, in the same way I had done the Infocom games.  This time I 
did restrict them to the items in the game world, however.  The result?  
They came up with many alternative solutions to puzzles which have been 
incorporated into the program and which I might have never thought up on 
my own.  They also, to my satisfaction, enjoyed the "game" immensely.

Come to think of it, this could be a whole new form of playtesting for 
interactive fiction games.  The DM basically takes on the role of the 
parser, but in this case s/he really *is* the ideal IF parser -- anything 
the players want to try, they can communicate to the DM, who will 
understand their request and decide on the outcome on the spot.

So what are you waiting for?  "Code up" your IF game on a bunch of 3X5 
cards, like I did, and find you a group of D&D players to give it a 
live-action playtest.  You might discover some very useful information.

(Side note:  "Challenge of the Czar" became too big to compile under TADS 
1.2 and I was forced to wait for TADS 2.X, during which time I got 
involved with other projects and lost that sense of urgency so important 
to finishing an IF game.  A couple of you people out there in int-fiction 
land have seen it, though, so you know it's not *totally* vaporware.  I 
am still playing with it, but have not really contemplated the monumental 
task of moving all of my ugly code over to the latest version of TADS.  
Nevertheless, I plan to resume working on it this summer.  We shall see 
what develops.  If I ever do get it done, perhaps I'll write an article 
for XYZZYnews on my experience with "live playtesting.") 

Followups may or may not need to be set to rec.arts.int-fiction.  I'll 
leave that decision up to anyone who chooses to actually read this.  :)

Sean
-----
M. Sean Molley, Computer Science Department, Western Kentucky University
mollems@pulsar.cs.wku.edu



From ekman@lysator.liu.se Fri May 10 10:37:02 CED 1996
Article: 14481 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!hk-r!news.ifm.liu.se!usenet
From: ekman@lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Other languages than English (was: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] IF from Spain: Eudoxio)
Date: 09 May 1996 22:49:31 +0200
Organization: Lysator Computer Society, Link|ping University, Sweden
Lines: 39
Sender: ekman@tintin.lysator.liu.se
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In-reply-to: maga@vetbio.unizh.ch's message of Tue, 07 May 1996 08:07:51 -0500
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In article <maga-0705960807510001@130.60.120.11> maga@vetbio.unizh.ch (Giovanni Maga) writes:

   I'm afraid that for
   someone who never looked at Spanish, a dictionary would not be enough to
   appreciate your game, especially since you said that it's more plot- than
   puzzle-oriented.

True. However, many people, such as myself, have studied some Spanish,
but not enough to be fluent. For such people, this game and others like
it present an excellent opportunity to improve upon the language in
question.

As a matter of fact, I tribute much of my knowledge of English to IF. I
played my first text adventure (Mission Impossible on a Vic-20) at the
age of 13, and I learned much from it and many similar games.

As it happens, I have written a paper on this subject, which I intend to
put on-line some day.

   Unfortunately, if- is still not so poular outside US to justify, for
   example, translation in oter languages of some good games like Curses,
   Zork (public domain), Adventure, etc.

As a matter of fact, there are versions of Adventure in both French and
Spanish. The French version has an interesting history: It was developed
as a commercial CP/M program (I forget the name of the company) as a
language learning tool and contained all texts in BOTH English and French.
At any point of the game, the player could choose to switch to the other
language (which unfortunately took some 15 seconds for the database to
load). Does anyone happen to have a copy of this? I would be VERY
interested in trying it.

  /F








From daly@PPD.Kodak.COM Fri May 10 14:00:37 CED 1996
Article: 14485 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: daly@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ultima as IF (was Re: Trouble's a-brewin')
Date: 8 May 1996 13:48:54 GMT
Organization: Eastman Kodak Company
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NNTP-Posting-Host: titan_gw.kodak.com

In article <slrn4ovcje.bvs.mike@skaro.lawlib.wm.edu> mike@lawlib.wm.edu writes:
>On 7 May 1996 14:39:27 GMT, Matthew Daly <daly@PPD.Kodak.COM> wrote:
>>I should have said that U4 comes as close to IF as any RPG that I
>>have ever seen, though.  Someone could (and should!) write a
>>game of that sort of magnitude that involves interacting with
>>people and items and gaining information and skills without
>>battles; it would fill a niche, I believe.  (Kinda like a
>>non-linear Carmen Sandiego game.)
>
>In some ways, Ultima 6 fits the bill rather well.  Using only those 
>items available from the beginning of the game, it is quite possible 
>to *avoid* much of the fighting, leaving only those few fights that 
>advance the plot (e.g. the thief under Britain).  Even then, if you 
>get "clever" you can bypass the whole map sub-plot, which cuts out 
>most of the remaining fighting in the overarching story.  That leaves
>*lots* of time to wander around talking to the townsfolk, discovering
>the little things that make them tick, solving local people-problems
>(like the mis-communication between the undertaker and his gravedigger), 
>and just generally enjoying the world.

I almost agree with this.  The first time I played I didn't 
understand the power of the ... item that completely blew the
balance of the game off it's rocker.  (I don't want to spoil it
for other people, so I'll just say it's the thing that was done
better by the Serpent's Jaw in U7 part 2.)  So I wound up
exploring the world in excruciating detail.  On my second play,
I solved it in a week of game time.  There is, sadly, a need
to fight because otherwise you won't get to a high enough level
to cast a crucial spell you need to win the game.  (I don't
recall which spell right now, but I do recall that it was 7th
level.)

I do agree that the wealth of subplots that didn't even remotely
tie in with the plot of "saving the world" was wonderful, as
is what I'll call the "terrarium" model, where you can bake your
own bread from raw materials, make your own clothes, sell meat
from hunting, and otherwise take on just about any profession
you want.  (Of course, you need to overlook that the population
of the planet is only about 200.... <g>)

I didn't keep U6 on the hard drive, mostly because I didn't
like the interface as much as on the U7's and I thought that
U4 was more fun to play.  I guess I should give it another
shot, and see if it's grown on me.

-Matthew


From mol@marvin.df.lth.se Fri May 10 18:18:38 CED 1996
Article: 14496 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!mol
From: mol@marvin.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Macintosh version of "Uncle Zebulon's Will", release 2.0
Date: 10 May 1996 16:18:12 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
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Message-ID: <4mvq84$enp@news.lth.se>
References: <4mpu0d$mrb@news.lth.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin.df.lth.se
NNTP-Posting-User: mol

In article <4mpu0d$mrb@news.lth.se>,
Magnus Olsson <mol@marvin.df.lth.se> wrote:
>I've just uploaded release 2.0 of my text adventure game "Uncle
>Zebulon's Will" to ftp.gmd.de. Currently, it is in
>/incoming/if-archive; I suppose it will be moved to /if-archive/games
>presently. 
>
>File names: 
>zebulon2.zip - platform independent version, needs the TADS 2.2 runtime
>	(available from ftp.gmd.de:/if-archive/programming/tads)
>zeb2_pc.zip - MS-DOS executable.
>
>A Macintosh version will (hopefully) be made available later this week.


I've uploaded the Macintosh version now as well. Filename: zeb2_mac.hqx.


>Changes in Release 2.0
>======================
>
>The changes in release 2.0 are quite small and don't affect gameplay -
>the sequence of actions needed to complete release 1.0 will be
>perfectly adequate here as well.  
>
>Most of the changes are bug fixes.  I've also added some functionality
>that isn't essential but makes the game more consistent or simply more
>detailed, as well as increased the vocabulary somewhat.
>
>I've also polished the writing a bit, removing some run-on sentences,
>repetitions and anti-climaxes.  The reviewer who found my prose
>flat and lifeless will probably still be disappointed, though, since
>that's more a matter of style and I didn't want to rewrite the entire
>game.  

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se)


From tbarrie@cycor.ca Fri May 10 22:06:38 CED 1996
Article: 14499 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: tbarrie@cycor.ca (Trevor Barrie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Trouble's a-brewin'
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 03:10:35 GMT
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daly@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly) wrote:

>My point was that the battles [in Ultima IV] don't exist to put 
>your life in jeapordy, they exist to test your Valor and Honor 
>and a few other virtues whose relevance I can't think of right now.

You could prove your Sacrifice by making sure that _you_ were always
the last one to leave if the party fled.

At any rate, I'm not sure how this relates.

>I should have said that U4 comes as close to IF as any RPG that I
>have ever seen, though.  Someone could (and should!) write a
>game of that sort of magnitude that involves interacting with
>people and items and gaining information and skills without
>battles; it would fill a niche, I believe.  

This would certainly be a good thing, but it wouldn't be any more IF
than Ultima IV IMO. Having fights in a novel doesn't make it any less
"fiction", so why doesn't the same hold true for the electronic case?

>>At any rate, I'd say that Ultima IV and V definitely qualify as IF.
>>Probably V moreso; IV is more innovative, but V had more of a story.

>V had a plot that you needed to follow.  IV was open-ended, which
>is something that I've never seen before.  

That's what I meant by calling V more IF-like. Pretty much all of the
text games at gmd have plots that you have to follow, after all.

>The purpose of IV was
>to wander around being a good example for people, and only after
>twenty hours of play did you get a sense of what shape the endgame
>would take.  A little more like life, I would hasten to say.

Yes, but V had more focus. Blackthorn is possibly the only computer
game villain that ever _meant_ something to me. After going through
all that struggle to master the virtues in IV, seeing them perverted
really hit home.





From maga@vetbio.unizh.ch Sun May 12 10:58:56 CED 1996
Article: 14507 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!hk-r!solace!paladin.american.edu!gatech!gt-news!cc.gatech.edu!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!surfnet.nl!swsbe6.switch.ch!scsing.switch.ch!rzunews.unizh.ch!NewsWatcher!user
From: maga@vetbio.unizh.ch (Giovanni Maga)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] IF from Spain: Eudoxio
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 08:41:14 -0500
Organization: University of Zurich Irchel- Biochemistry
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <maga-1005960841140001@130.60.120.11>
References: <3190ed87.2307146@news.demon.co.uk> <4mrfqd$ih@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4msujb$3rt@news.ycc.yale.edu> <745.6703T1204T2411@mistral.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.60.120.11

In article <745.6703T1204T2411@mistral.co.uk>, ghira@mistral.co.uk (Adam
Atkinson) wrote:

> One thing I wonder about is how you would give the orders.
> 
> In Italian, would you address the computer as _tu_ or _Lei_?

Certainly with _tu_. The third person _Lei_ is a very formal one, not
really suited for speaking to a computer (that, in the if context, is
always like to speak to yourself). Thus the order, for example, *eat blue
cake*, will translate as *mangia la torta blu*. I would stress the fact
that, even if the article is usually optional for the game parser,
probably every Italian player will use it, since it is very unnatural to
refer to a noun without using the article before (whereas in English the
use of the article is much more flexible). The particle _tu_ is not used,
before the imperative.

>The imperative
> forms are different, of course. Or would you perhaps use infinitives, as is
> often done in adverts and instruction manuals? 

I wouldn't say so. The infinitives are absolutely not used, with the
exception of the instruction manuals. Usually, we speak by infinitives
when we make jokes about foreigners speaking bad Italians (scusi, io
volere mangiare). It would be much more difficult for a native Italian to
think in infinitives than with normal imperative.

>Or given the "you are at the
> end of a road" nature of the room descriptions, perhaps the orders should
> be of the form "I walk North" "I throw the cheese". (Subject pronouns
> are optional and indeed not generally used except for emphasis or to avoid
> ambiguity)
> 

Again, there is no special reason why the English imperative *walk north*
must be translated in Italian as *Io vado a Nord (I walk North)*, which is
not an imperative, of course, thus it would be also not a faithful
translation. The point of view is always the same: you give orders to the
computer to make actions instead of yourself. Thus the game description is
referring to *you* and you act through the computer. Both in English and
in Italian, the most natural (I think) way to speak with the computer is
by using the imperative form (just to feel reassured that WE are the
masters and IT is the slave, even if we know it's not always true).
Happy adventuring, Giovanni.


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Sun May 12 15:39:32 CED 1996
Article: 14543 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!hk-r!solace!paladin.american.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!uclink.berkeley.edu!whizzard
From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Packaging Gimmicks: The Next Generation
Date: 11 May 1996 18:43:21 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4n2n49$e89@agate.berkeley.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu

In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960510214739.7061A-100000@xp.psych.nyu.edu>,
Roger Giner-Sorolla  <giner@xp.psych.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>How much do you think it would cost to have gimmicks comparable to 
>Infocom's coolest done up in fairly small quantities ( < 100)?  I can't 
>imagine it would add that much to what the author decides to charge for 
>the game...

Hi Roger, you seem to have wandered into an area of expertise for me.

What you say about gimmicks being inexpensive is pretty true.  They tend 
not to run more than $3.00 apiece.  The kicker is the minimum order.  
Most of these items must be ordered in quantities of at least 350.  
That's a large initial investment in your game, made in faith that the 
near-mythical pool of I-F fans with money still exists, and more 
importantly, will buy your game.

If you go into paper gimmicks, it gets easier to handle.  You are more 
likely to be able to create them on demand, reducing initial investment 
and overall risk.  However, avoid color printing or photocopying.  The 
cost will eat you alive.  I myself have come to the conclusion that $1.00 
for one color photocopy (approx.  your mileage may vary) is just too damn 
steep for a color cover for Avalon.  So it will likely have to be in 
black and white, sadly.  I'll include the .gif on the disk I guess.

You could try advance orders, but I dunno if I would want to.  It seems 
rather much to expect people to go out on a limb for YOUR investment.

So essentially, you come down to this: If you do this sort of thing, 
expect to pay at least $5.00 per copy or so.  (You may be able to cut it 
smaller if you put in less stuff than I did.  Don't forget that a manual 
alone is about $2.00 per copy.)  Some items have smaller mimimum orders 
than others, but your start up costs with probably be in the vicinity of 
$500-$600 and a whole bunch of your time.

You can either add the cost of the packaging to the price of the game and 
pray you don't get stuck with 300 plastic 'stellar meatloaf' frisbees 
sitting in your garage, or you charge more to return your start up money 
sooner, and then give out refunds if you sell enough copies to totally 
defray your investment, which is basically what I've ended up doing, or 
will end up doing, when Avalon is done, hence its fairly steep price of 
$25, which might eventually be refunded down to around $20.  That's $15 
for the game, and around $5 for the packaging, if I sell enough copies.

I would do otherwise, but there's too much money involved.  It's simply 
impractical to lay $500 or so on the line with no idea of how to get it 
back, or even how to pay for the next print run.

By the way, I do packaging consulting for a very modest fee. ;) Just kidding.


From lazuli@u.washington.edu Mon May 13 12:24:16 CED 1996
Article: 14560 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!hk-r!solace!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!lazuli
From: lazuli@u.washington.edu (Fred Michael Sloniker)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Suspended-- Infocom's greatest disappointment?
Date: 13 May 1996 02:14:27 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4n65u3$cch@nntp4.u.washington.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-User: lazuli

Andrew C. Plotkin <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU> wrote:

>Suspended was just the *sexiest* game concept ever.

What a pity the execution was so hideous.  ):3

I really wanted to like this game.  I *really*, *really* wanted to
like this game.  The tokens were cool, the maps were cool, the concept
was cool...

SPOILERS!


But the interface.  Uuuuurgh.  You had to send every robot everywhere
just to figure out what needed doing and what was where.  Some of the
robots (Whiz, for instance) were totally useless, or at least their
'special skills' were.  Iris was crippled at the beginning of the game
for no reason other than making a puzzle (I mean, there hadn't been a
disaster for a couple hundred years, and no message so much as implied
that her damage came about as a result of the accident-- hell, she
doesn't even tell you she's hurt unless you ask about it!-- so how come
the robots didn't fix her up?)  Information vital to completing the
scenario, that you should know by rights (like the location of the
cable you ultimately have to repair, or the locations and functions of
the manual overrides) is withheld.  Entering a particular room after a
particular time does worse than instantly kill a robot: it dooms it to
death, so you may not even *know* why it's melting if you sent a robot
through that room on a task.  You had to spend a turn, of which you
only had a hundred or so, just to find out a sixth of the layout of a
room you should know by heart!

One of these days, I'm going to do a robot-control game right.  The
robots are all going to be useful, they're going to keep you
up-to-date on important events in their area, and you won't be
*forced* to play the game thirty or forty times just to collect the
data you need to even make a start on the game.  And if you're in cryo
suspension in an easily-opened chamber that means instant death if
opened, the robots are bloody well going to tell you they're not
opening the door even if you tell them to, and explain why.  (My first
game of 'Suspended' ended on a sour note when I asked a robot in the
central chamber to have a look in that pillar.)

In the meantime, 'Suspended' can best be used as a cautionary tale of
reaching too far beyond your grasp, not to mention the crossword
defeating the narrative and in turn being kicked out by one of those
Chinese puzzle boxes.  Only one feature in that game was meritous of
emulation: the auto-get-from-point-A-to-point-B function.  You can bet
*my* robots are going to have that *too*.

IMHO, of course.

				---Fred M. Sloniker, stressed undergrad
				   L. Lazuli R'kamos, FurryMUCKer
				   lazuli@u.washington.edu

DISCLAIMER: If your computer explodes when you get my mail, it's not my fault.


From steph@lager.engsoc.carleton.ca Mon May 13 16:37:25 CED 1996
Article: 14565 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: steph@lager.engsoc.carleton.ca (Stephane Racle)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Suspended-- Infocom's greatest disappointment?
Date: 13 May 1996 04:53:00 GMT
Organization: Carleton Engineering
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First of all, I'll state that I disagree with the previous message. Of
course, let me make some arguments...

Fred Michael Sloniker (lazuli@u.washington.edu) wrote:

: But the interface.  Uuuuurgh.  You had to send every robot everywhere
: just to figure out what needed doing and what was where.  Some of the

Nothing wrong with that, IMO. I immensely enjoyed the exploration of the 
complex. First, you're not supposed to know anything since you've been 
sleeping for years, and 'nothing ever goes wrong'. So you'll have to 
explore. But... let me continue: I though Suspended was the only game 
where you could actually not necessarily work towards directly solving the 
game, but still have fun. There was so much to explore. And everything 
was 'seen' 6 different ways.  It was great and refreshing to 'see' a room 
by listening, touching, etc... And also, the game included many items 
that you did not necessarily need to use to complete the game, but that 
COULD be used towards completing it, or that simply could be used and 
gave interesting results (although they had no point in the completion of 
the game).


: robots (Whiz, for instance) were totally useless, or at least their

Whiz was not useless. At a minimum, he could carry things for you or
explore. Second, I always enjoyed having Whiz plugged in the terminals and
querying about every aspect of the complex (things which I discovered with
my other robots), since there were so many interesting responses (some of
which weren't, once again, directly related to solving the game). 

: 'special skills' were.  Iris was crippled at the beginning of the game
: for no reason other than making a puzzle (I mean, there hadn't been a

Well, it's not very difficult: Auda hears (ex: listening to the humans),
Iris sees (ex: the camera), Sensa senses (ex: tremors), Waldo graps
(mechanical/carrying), Poet touches (ex: fixing robots, manipulating
delicate equipment), and Whiz can plug himself into computers. I used all
the skills from every robot. As for Iris, why does there need to be a
reason for her being broken? Nothing wrong with just accepting it. You
could begin to question everything in the game too: why not six robots
that can all see, hear, touch, etc? Anyways, she could have had an
accident, remember, nobody used them for years and years. 

: disaster for a couple hundred years, and no message so much as implied
: that her damage came about as a result of the accident-- hell, she
: doesn't even tell you she's hurt unless you ask about it!-- so how come
: the robots didn't fix her up?)  Information vital to completing the
: scenario, that 

The robots didn't fix her up because they don't do anything unless 
they're told to. So you've been sleeping for hundreds of years and 
haven't told them anything.

: you should 
: know by rights (like the location of the
: cable you ultimately have to repair, or the locations and functions of

It's part of the game, you can find all the info you need using Whiz in 
the terminal or by exploring. Remember, you don't know anything about the 
complex. You've just woken up after hundreds of years. It's like if let's 
say I woke up one morning in the middle of a deserted city. I wouldn't 
know anything, so I'd have to explore. I don't see why you'd have 
to know these things by right.

: the manual overrides) is withheld.  Entering a particular room after a
: particular time does worse than instantly kill a robot: it dooms it to
: death, so you may not even *know* why it's melting if you sent a robot
: through that room on a task.  You had to spend a turn, of which you
: only had a hundred or so, just to find out a sixth of the layout of a
: room you should know by heart!

See previous. You're implying that you should already know everything 
about the robots, the complex, and all. You don't! Not sure what you mean 
by the melting part.

right.  The : robots are all going to be useful, they're going to keep you
: up-to-date on important events in their area, and you won't be
: *forced* to play the game thirty or forty times just to collect the
: data you need to even make a start on the game.  And if you're in cryo
: suspension in an easily-opened chamber that means instant death if
: opened, the robots are bloody well going to tell you they're not
: opening the door even if you tell them to, and explain why.  (My first
: game of 'Suspended' ended on a sour note when I asked a robot in the
: central chamber to have a look in that pillar.)

All the robots are useful. And, if you read about the pillar by using
Whiz in the terminals, you know not to open it up. As for the robots,
THEY'RE ROBOTS!  Don't ask them to do the job for you.  The robots do keep
you up to date. You seem to forget that each robot has only one type of
sensorial perception. It's part of the charm of the game. 

: In the meantime, 'Suspended' can best be used as a cautionary tale of
: reaching too far beyond your grasp, not to mention the crossword
: defeating the narrative and in turn being kicked out by one of those
: Chinese puzzle boxes.  Only one feature in that game was meritous of
: emulation: the auto-get-from-point-A-to-point-B function.  You can bet
: *my* robots are going to have that *too*.


I think one reason I enjoyed Suspended is it was a game like no other. 
You already had everything mapped out for you, but you still needed to 
learn about the rooms. And the rooms could have six different 
descriptions depending upon which robot sees it. I think another reason I 
enjoyed it is perhaps one of the reasons you didn't: there were so many 
things to do (ever tried to fix the seventh robot?) that you did not need 
to do... There was so much learning to do, that you could get sidetracked 
and lose the game, but restart again and explore some more...

: IMHO, of course.

Same here.

One episode I particularly enjoyed in the game was, when the humans come 
after your body in the Cryo chamber, to send a robot in the 
car to go to the Cryo area and let the car stay on the Cryo side, thus 
stopping the humans from getting to you... :) Of course they had the 
pillar. But anyways, the game was full of little things like that.
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephane Racle                                       steph@engsoc.carleton.ca 
Aerospace Engineering                    http://www.engsoc.carleton.ca/~steph
Carleton University


From lazuli@u.washington.edu Sun May 19 23:56:34 CED 1996
Article: 14616 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: lazuli@u.washington.edu (Fred Michael Sloniker)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Suspended-- Infocom's greatest disappointment?
Date: 16 May 1996 02:51:43 GMT
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Possible SPOILERS for "Suspended" ahead.

Stephane Racle <steph@lager.engsoc.carleton.ca> wrote, replying to my message:

>Nothing wrong with that, IMO. I immensely enjoyed the exploration of the 
>complex. First, you're not supposed to know anything since you've been 
>sleeping for years, and 'nothing ever goes wrong'. So you'll have to 
>explore.

Actually, having to explore didn't bug me so much as having to spend
cycles all over the place in order to 'see' the rooms.  When you've
only got 100 or so cycles until things start going seriously loopy,
having to spend six of those cycles on 'ARR' can get annoying.  If the
time limit hadn't been so brutal, or if some actions could be taken
for 'free', I wouldn't have minded this so much.

Plus, some of my bias is showing here; Suspended is a game where you
really need to play it a fair number of times before you have enough
information to make a start at solving the problems.  'Past life
knowledge' is something that bugs me inordinately in IF; I like to
think that there's at least a miniscule chance I'll solve most of it
on the first go...

>But... let me continue: I though Suspended was the only game 
>where you could actually not necessarily work towards directly solving the 
>game, but still have fun. There was so much to explore. And everything 
>was 'seen' 6 different ways.  It was great and refreshing to 'see' a room 
>by listening, touching, etc... And also, the game included many items 
>that you did not necessarily need to use to complete the game, but that 
>COULD be used towards completing it, or that simply could be used and 
>gave interesting results (although they had no point in the completion of 
>the game).

I agree that there were a number of interesting objects in the game,
but not as many as you might think at first; it was fairly sparsely
occupied, if I recall (a handful of computer chips, a basket, an
incline, a handful of wires, and a plaque come to mind, but not too
many other things.)  Still, I *did* have some fun just wandering
around and looking at stuff, once I stopped panicking about dying
every ten minutes.  The different ways the 'bots saw were entertaining.

>Whiz was not useless. At a minimum, he could carry things for you or
>explore. Second, I always enjoyed having Whiz plugged in the terminals and
>querying about every aspect of the complex (things which I discovered with
>my other robots), since there were so many interesting responses (some of
>which weren't, once again, directly related to solving the game). 

That's strange; I dug into the game using one of those disassembly
tools and I didn't find a lot of strings that Whiz could say.  For
instance, I don't recall any objects you could find that he could
describe the function of (and I think it said something to that effect
in the manual).

>As for Iris, why does there need to be a reason for her being
>broken? Nothing wrong with just accepting it.

Well, Iris isn't too much use to begin with; she can't go very many
places, she isn't a good manipulator, and even when she is up and
running she only really needs accomplish one task.  (I think a great
deal of my complaints stem from how much more could have been put into
this game, which is, I think, a point I've been touching on in the
last few paragraphs.  But that probably deserves more attention than a
parenthetical comment.)  Poking her eyes out is just aggravating,
especially when you have to do a scavenger hunt and call in two or
three robots to fix her 'cause she won't go to the robot repair bay.
(BTW, anyone ever successfully fixed a robot there?  Some code in the
'source' suggests it's possible, but I couldn't figure out how to load
it up...)

>You could begin to question everything in the game too: why not six
>robots that can all see, hear, touch, etc?

Yes, why *not* six robots that can all see, hear, touch, etc?  (They
don't all have to be *identical*, mind, but at least minimally capable
in a number of areas...)  Auda, for instance, is not required to solve
any of the puzzles in the game, if I recall (handy for buying you some
time, though), and Whiz is only useful as a tote-and-carry, given how
little data he can provide.  To some extent, the capacities of the
'bots were determined in jest, which I don't mind, but it detracted
from the more somber tone of the game.

>Anyways, she could have had an accident, remember, nobody used them
>for years and years.

So while the alarms are blaring and the sirens raging, she doesn't
bother to say: "Oh, by the way, during all the excitement my optics
went down.  Would you mind fixing them?"  I didn't even notice she was
blind my first game for several turns, and then I thought it was the
result of something I'd done, like forget to tell her to turn her eyes
on or something...

>It's part of the game, you can find all the info you need using Whiz in 
>the terminal or by exploring. Remember, you don't know anything about the 
>complex.

Well, the people who put your character in the tube should have given
you more information.  Would Whiz tell you the location of the broken
cables if you asked him?

>See previous. You're implying that you should already know everything 
>about the robots, the complex, and all. You don't! Not sure what you mean 
>by the melting part.

The acid spraying in that one room which would cause any affected
robot to become inactive about 20 turns later.  A robot would walk
into the room, not tell you about the acid (because you didn't
explicitly issue a 'report' command, because a robot had been in there
before the acid spill and you didn't want to waste another cycle on
checking around), you'd send them someplace else, and then they'd
crash and you wouldn't know why...

>All the robots are useful. And, if you read about the pillar by using
>Whiz in the terminals, you know not to open it up.

I don't know about you, but if *I* was designing a chamber that would
hold a man, and opening the chamber would kill him instantly, I'd put
some safeguards on that door mechanism so a robot couldn't just waltz
over and pull the switch when the inhabitant's cryo-clouded brain
asked it to.

>I think one reason I enjoyed Suspended is it was a game like no other. 
>You already had everything mapped out for you, but you still needed to 
>learn about the rooms. And the rooms could have six different 
>descriptions depending upon which robot sees it.

Well, five, in most cases (Iris couldn't go to most of the rooms), but
you're right, those were some of the things I *did* like.  That's why
I called this thread 'Infocom's greatest *disappointment*', not
'...*failure*'.  That'd probably be Cornerstone.  (:3

>One episode I particularly enjoyed in the game was, when the humans come 
>after your body in the Cryo chamber, to send a robot in the 
>car to go to the Cryo area and let the car stay on the Cryo side, thus 
>stopping the humans from getting to you... :) Of course they had the 
>pillar. But anyways, the game was full of little things like that.

(nods)  Agreed.  Like the reference to "Starcross".

Anyway, guess I'll have to put my money where my mouth is and write a
'better-than-Suspended' robot game.  One of these years...  (:3

				---Fred M. Sloniker, stressed undergrad
				   L. Lazuli R'kamos, FurryMUCKer
				   lazuli@u.washington.edu

Help!  I'm dead and I can't get up.  gaw.


From trans@lucent.com Sun May 19 23:57:06 CED 1996
Article: 14624 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: trans@lucent.com (Scott Forbes)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Suspended-- Infocom's greatest disappointment?
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 09:50:49 -0500
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+-- lazuli@u.washington.edu (Fred Michael Sloniker) wrote:
| Possible SPOILERS for "Suspended" ahead.

[snip]

| That's strange; I dug into the game using one of those disassembly
| tools and I didn't find a lot of strings that Whiz could say.  For
| instance, I don't recall any objects you could find that he could
| describe the function of (and I think it said something to that effect
| in the manual).

Whiz couldn't describe objects very well by direct interaction with them;
IIRC he tended to refer to objects by their catalog number in the computer
system or some similar identification.  But if Whiz plugged in to one of
the terminals in the CLC, he could access the terminal to provide
background information (which may not have shown up in the source code as
something Whiz would say, although Whiz's presence was essential).

| Poking [Iris's] eyes out is just aggravating,
| especially when you have to do a scavenger hunt and call in two or
| three robots to fix her 'cause she won't go to the robot repair bay.
| (BTW, anyone ever successfully fixed a robot there?  Some code in the
| 'source' suggests it's possible, but I couldn't figure out how to load
| it up...)

Yes, I managed to un-melt Waldo after a trip through the acid bath.  I
think I had Sensa and Poet drag him to the repair bay and put him on the
conveyor belt, and two turns later he came out the other end repaired.

| So while the alarms are blaring and the sirens raging, she doesn't
| bother to say: "Oh, by the way, during all the excitement my optics
| went down.  Would you mind fixing them?"  I didn't even notice she was
| blind my first game for several turns, and then I thought it was the
| result of something I'd done, like forget to tell her to turn her eyes
| on or something...

For what it's worth, my first victory at Suspended was acheived *without*
using Iris; even with the reset codes randomly changing after each
incorrect entry, you still have a non-zero chance of actually hitting the
right ones.  I never put a robot other than Auda in the shuttle car, so I
never knew there was a camera over there.  :-)  It was only when I was
trying to improve my score and do some random exploring that I found it.

-- 
STOP  STOP  STOP  STOP  STOP  STOP  STOP  STOP  STOP  STOP  STOP
If you finish before time is called, you may check your work on
this section only.  Do not turn to any other section of the test.


From avrom@Turing.Stanford.EDU Sun May 19 23:58:00 CED 1996
Article: 14668 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: avrom@Turing.Stanford.EDU (Avrom Faderman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Suspended-- Infocom's greatest disappointment?
Date: 19 May 1996 01:04:34 -0700
Organization: CSLI, Stanford University
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In article <4ne57v$9s9@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
Fred Michael Sloniker <lazuli@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>Possible SPOILERS for "Suspended" ahead.
>
[snip]
>
>Yes, why *not* six robots that can all see, hear, touch, etc?  (They
>don't all have to be *identical*, mind, but at least minimally capable
>in a number of areas...)  Auda, for instance, is not required to solve
>any of the puzzles in the game, if I recall (handy for buying you some
>time, though), and Whiz is only useful as a tote-and-carry, given how
>little data he can provide.  To some extent, the capacities of the
>'bots were determined in jest, which I don't mind, but it detracted
>from the more somber tone of the game.

This is an interesting interpretation.  My impression of Suspended had
been that it really didn't have much of a somber tone--it was not an
attempt at serious dysutopian fiction (as, perhaps, AMFV was).  I had
always taken it to be a _farce_--a dark farce, admittedly, but a farce
nonetheless.

>>Anyways, she could have had an accident, remember, nobody used them
>>for years and years.
>
>So while the alarms are blaring and the sirens raging, she doesn't
>bother to say: "Oh, by the way, during all the excitement my optics
>went down.  Would you mind fixing them?"  I didn't even notice she was
>blind my first game for several turns, and then I thought it was the
>result of something I'd done, like forget to tell her to turn her eyes
>on or something...

Iris doesn't tell you she's broken because she's a ditz, just as poet
describes everything in bizarre expressionist ravings because he's a
lunatic.  The robots aren't, strictly speaking, supposed to be all
that helpful.  Dealing with them is, I take it, intended to be a bit
of a comic nightmare. 

>>It's part of the game, you can find all the info you need using Whiz in 
>>the terminal or by exploring. Remember, you don't know anything about the 
>>complex.
>
>Well, the people who put your character in the tube should have given
>you more information.  Would Whiz tell you the location of the broken
>cables if you asked him?

You're living in a futuristic dysutopian bureaucracy.  Remember, you
got put here as an "involuntary reward" (was that the term?) for being
the "lucky winner" of the planetary lottery.  The people in charge of
this place aren't, as it turns out, all that bright.  If they were,
they would have given you better information about the complex than a
map, wouldn't have populated it with robots that were alternately
wildly limited and deranged, wouldn't be so easy to fool with the car
trick, and would really have found a better way to monitor the FCs
than some poor shmoe pulled off the streets at random and "encouraged
to do their civic duty" (under penalty of death) by being trapped in
cryogenic suspension for all time.

I don't think this is a design flaw;  I think it's atmosphere.  Think
of Eddie the Shipboard computer not realizing that making good tea was
of somewhat lower priority than saving the ship. 

Of course, Suspended has weird dark notes that purer comedies
don't--like tallying up the number of deaths you fail to prevent.  But
I do think the overall tone is one of black humor.

	-Avrom





From daly@PPD.Kodak.COM Mon May 20 16:38:40 CED 1996
Article: 14627 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: daly@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: What do you think of Legend Games?
Date: 16 May 1996 12:42:16 GMT
Organization: Eastman Kodak Company
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I reformatted your post to fit inside 80 columns ... it's easier for
those of us with archaic readers! :-)

In article <319B01BC.5F3A@legendent.com> "James A. Montanus" <jmontanu@legendent.com> writes:
>OK. I'm feeling gutsy today: tell me what you think 
>of Legend adventure games. What's good, 
>what's bad, and what would you like to see. The 
>more reasonable and constructive your comments, 
>the easier it will be to act on them.
>
>I'm not here to start a religious war on graphic 
>interfaces vs. parsers, etc. I just want to hear 
>from people that really care about the quality 
>of the game and the gaming experience. 

I recall playing S101 and halfway through the second day of S102, so
you'll know where I'm coming from.  Off the top of my head, I don't
recall any other Legend titles.  What all you guys done?

I liked the interface of these games quite a bit.  Being able to
choose the level of "graphicness" is a wonderful touch, especially
when you can have a "look" window and an "inventory" window open
all the time.  It seems more natural to IF, since a player knows
where they are and what they're holding on a subconscious level,
so it's distracting every time the user has to type "l" or "i" in
a text adventure game.

The first week of S101 was also very well done.  I like the fact
that the campus was alive with activity that all acted on
schedule.  Even if very little of it related to advancement of
the plot, it increased the replay value by an order of
magnitude.  Maybe more of that would be nice, even to the point
of involving a little interactivity.  For instance, what would
happen if you were called out of the stands as a substitute
during the sporting match?  Make it very easy to win, and then
have the frat party that night reflect your "hero" status.
Not that it would have anything to do with furthering the plot
or getting points.  See Ultima 5-7 for lots and lots of
mini-quests that exist only to make it really seem like you're
part of the world.

The humor and puzzles were also very good, although perhaps on
the easy side.  "Increase bust size", indeed! :-)  And I think
that The Island Where Time Runs Backwards is one of my
favorite puzzles ... perfectly done!

On the down side, (and this is especially true of S201, I guess)
I don't like the time constraints.  In order to get through the
first day, you have to know exactly which classes you can skip,
exactly what secret locations you have to go to, and generally
not make a timing mistake all day long.  In essence, the odds
that a player would be able to stick the mustache on the
clock tower the first time is staggering.  So you have to
restore and try again, and learn (as a player) from your
previous mistakes (which your character "never made" since you
restored the game).  That's not my thing, and it made me put
the game down.  I suppose I'll go back some day and pick it
up again, though.

I can also live without the tame/lewd settings.  Although,
given that computer games cannot be made without a horror
theme these days, I almost long for the days of softporn! :-)

I guess that's all I can think of now.  Thanks for asking!

-Matthew Daly


From mollems@pulsar.wku.edu Mon May 20 16:45:07 CED 1996
Article: 14635 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: mollems@pulsar.wku.edu (M. Sean Molley)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: What do you think of Legend Games?
Date: 16 May 1996 21:12:03 GMT
Organization: Western Kentucky University
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In article <argh>, James A. Montanus <jmontanu@legendent.com> wrote:
>OK. I'm feeling gutsy today: tell me what you think of Legend adventure games.

Okay, I'll bite, considering that I've played every game Legend have ever 
released (at least to my knowledge).

First of all, one must distinguish between the two "periods" of Legend 
releases.  The earlier games, such as TimeQuest, the Spellcasting series, 
Eric the Unready, etc.  were really text adventures with some graphics 
attached.  I always played them in text-only mode and didn't feel like I 
missed a thing.  The more recent games, beginning with Companions of 
Xanth, have utilized the 3/4 screen full-graphics interface with "hot 
spots" and "construct a command" similar in some ways to the LucasArts 
SCUMM engine.  Several games (Superhero League of Hoboken, Shannara, and 
Mission Critical spring to mind) also have major sections where an 
entirely different interface is used (although the RPG aspect of Shannara 
is actually just a kind of cleverly programmed variation on the standard 
interface.  I say "kind of" because it has some problems).

I could list each game and give the strengths and weaknesses, but I don't 
have the time or the inclination.  Followups may be directed to this 
newsgroup or directly to me via email, mollems@pulsar.cs.wku.edu.  
Instead, I will summarize some of the "highs" and "lows" of Legend's 
career...

The Spellcasting Series (101,201,301, by Steve Meretzky).  These are 
probably Legend's best-known games, at least until recently.  
Spellcasting 101 was a great game, with some truly innovative and amusing 
puzzles (the Isle of Lost Souls, the Island Where Time Runs Backwards, 
the "maize maze", etc).  Spellcasting 201 relied a bit too much on the 
sophomoric humor, and Spellcasting 301 was an absolute disaster.  The 
strength of the first game was in its clever puzzles, coupled with a 
creative and enjoyable plot.  The mediocrity of the second game was in 
its clever puzzles, coupled with a repetitive and juvenille plot.  The 
failure of the third game was in its idiotic puzzles, coupled with (as 
far as I could tell) no plot beyond a plethora of anatomical jokes.  
These games are both a "high" and a "low" for Legend, as they vary so 
widely in quality.  Spellcasting 301, in particular, has the look and 
feel of something that was rushed out the door for the sake of 
completeness.  Nevertheless, the games were the first return to IF in the 
vein of the "Enchanter" series (at least as far as the spellcasting went) 
and as such are noteworthy.

Eric the Unready:  This game is one of Legend's finest.  Bob Bates neatly 
parodies everything from the original Zork to the traditional "huge enemy 
with fatal weakness" that has plagued fantasy games since Wizardry I.  As 
the last of the "text plus graphics" adventures released by any company, 
Eric is kind of like Infocom's last romp.  Anyone who hasn't played it, 
should.  The strength of this game is that its irreverence is obviously 
deliberate and its puzzles are very clever.  Eric the Unready is also 
notable because it introduces the idea of conversations with NPC's 
consisting of choosing from a list of possible dialog options.  This 
works in Eric, because the NPC's don't have anything important to tell 
you anyway, but unfortunately Legend chose to keep it for their later 
games (where it proved to be a disaster, as I shall discuss shortly).

Superhero League of Hoboken -- I include this game for discussion because 
it's another parody-style game (Legend seems to be good at these).  This 
game slams the "superhero" genre with truly ridiculous heroes and 
heriones who strive for Truth, Justice, and Pizza in an apocalyptic 
wasteland.  The game's humor is generally a mixed bag, which is not 
surprising since when Steve Meretzky is good, he's great, and when he's 
bad, he's awful.  The game is noteworthy, however, because of the way the 
designers carefully interleaved the traditional adventure game aspects 
(examining objects, solving puzzles) with the traditional RPG aspects 
(slogging through dungeons, mapping, slaying monsters in big fights).  If 
anything the RPG element was a big *too* much, however, degenerating into 
Bard's Tale style "a fight every two steps" near the end.  However, 
overall the game was a lot of fun, and is noteworthy because it's the 
only time Billy Martin and George Steinbrenner have appeared in the same 
product without causing total devastation in a 10-mile radius.  (For 
people who are not fans of the New York Yankees professional baseball 
team, however, this humor is certainly lost!)

Shannara -- Legend's more recent foray into the RPG/adventure hybrid 
realm.  This game, from once-golden children Lori and Corey Cole of 
Sierra, is a disaster almost right from the beginning.  The puzzles are 
inane and way too easy, the plot is incredibly predictable, and the RPG 
aspect is poorly done -- primarily because it NEVER helps you to fight.  
Your "characters" do not gain experience, treasure, items, or abilities 
from fighting.  You merely run the risk of dying.  The interface for the 
combats is not well-handled, either.  While the storyline does draw upon 
some of the richest material in all of fantasy (Terry Brooks' _The Sword 
of Shannara_ was the first fantasy novel ever to live on the New York 
Times bestseller list) nothing good is done with the familiar characters, 
places, or enemies.  In fact, the whole game seems like a vehicle for 
some programmer who said "look, guys, I've developed this really cool 
morphing effect!  What say we design a game where I get to put it in 
EVERY SINGLE CUTSCENE?"  The voice acting is abysmal, the dialogue is 
trite, and the game is even considered sexist by many because the female 
lead is so ineffective.  Did I mention that the puzzles were stupid?  The 
design is also the most linear ever to come from Legend.  At most, the 
player has three or four rooms to explore, and once the puzzles in an 
area are solved, the party gets schlepped off, trying to avoid stumbling 
into any more fights, to the next tiny block of three or four rooms.  If 
ever that was a game that deserved to be better than it actually is, that 
game is Shannara.  The only game of the year that was actually worse than 
this one is "Phantasmagoria," and it's a pretty close call between them.

Death Gate -- This is another Legend game which is based on a literary 
license.  The Death Gate series of novels by Margaret Weiss and Tracy 
Hickman have been among the more popular works of fantasy in the last 
several years.  Unlike "Shannara", however, Death Gate does good justice 
to the works upon which it is based.  The recreation of the different 
"worlds" is accurate without following exactly the storyline in the 
novels, meaning that the print books are great background, but do not 
solve any puzzles in the game.  The game can almost be considered like an 
alternate timeline for the novels, since the main characters are the same 
in both, but the events are markedly different.  The design of this one 
is very good, with many clever puzzles of different types.  There are 
only two major weaknesses in the game: the conversational sub-system and 
the endgame.  The conversations are the same tired "picture of the NPC, 
choose what your character says from a list of possibilities" format 
which started with Eric the Unready and simply does not want to die.  
This system is woefully inadequate to convey the depth and variety 
inherent in the many NPC's that populate the world of Death Gate.  Worse, 
the solutions to several of the puzzles involve conversations with NPC's, 
and "solving" them is merely a case of choosing dialogue options until 
there are none left to choose, since picking one does not preclude 
picking any of the other ones.  Worse still, you can come back to an NPC 
and have the EXACT SAME CONVERSATION again and again and again!  The 
voice acting on this one is not bad, and the dialogue itself is quite 
well written most of the time.  The plot is very believable, and has some 
twists and turns.  The puzzles generally add to the story rather than 
seeming artificial, although there is one combinatorics puzzle involving 
the rotation of arrows which seems to have been stolen straight out of 
The 7th Guest and given a new interface.  The game comes to a screeching 
halt, however, in the endgame, where the puzzles are ludicrously easy and 
the ending is a foregone conclusion several turns before it happens.  
Also, the designers seem to have used up their entire budget before 
reaching the end of the game, because while the introduction is a lengthy 
animated cutscene, the ending is extremely brief and unsatisfying.  
Still, Death Gate is a strong, enjoyable game, and indicative of the 
overall high quality of Legend products.

Whew.  I'm out of typing energy.  I could go on, since Legend has 
released a great many other games which are deserving of discussion.  I 
have always felt like Legend is the company that basically comes as close 
to Infocom as anyone can in this era of SVGA graphics and 16-bit stereo 
soundtracks.  Mission Critical, their most recent release, is one of the 
few "full motion video" games to use the video both intelligently and to 
good effect.

Generally, to distill my comments into some more specific thoughts:

1.  Legend's designers are generally very good at puzzle construction.  
    They do, however, tend to fall into overly linear structures at times.

2.  Legend's writers are generally very good with plot and story, 
although they often have a great deal of background to work with 
(Frederick Pohl's Gateway novels, Terry Brooks' Shannara series, the 
Weiss and Hickman Death Gate books, Piers Anthony's Xanth novels, and now 
Spider Robinson's Callahan's Crosstime Saloon are all literary 
adaptations used by Legend, which takes some of the pressure away from the 
writers to come up with an orginal setting and characters).

3.  Legend's artists are generally very good at portraying both places 
and characters imaginatively.  However, the voice acting on their CD 
games is generally not so hot.  (The video acting in Mission Critical was 
quite good, although brief).

4.  The conversational sub-system has got to go.  It stinks.  Badly.

5.  When Legend decides to do a bad game, they don't go halfway -- they 
do a really bad one.  Shannara and Spellcasting 301 -- need I say more?

6.  They do very few bad ones.  Most of the time their games are of the 
highest quality, certainly as good or better than anything else out there.

Of course, this is to be expected, since Bob Bates is himself one of the 
late additions to the Infocom team (Arthur: the Quest for Excalibur was 
an excellent game which went largely unnoticed), and Steve Meretzky 
(whose credits are too numerous to mention) is one of the all-time 
interactive fiction greats (even though Leather Goddesses of Phobos II 
was perhaps the most pathetic sequel ever released, we like him anyway).

I would be happy to discuss any of these issues or others relating to 
Legend games at length when I have regained feeling in my fingers.  And, 
if Legend wishes to offer me a job, I'll be happy to take it.  (Better 
not team me with the Coles, though, after my comments about Shannara.  
They're likely to fry me with Elfstones... or worse.)  :)

Sean
-----
M. Sean Molley, Computer Science Department, Western Kentucky University
mollems@pulsar.cs.wku.edu

>James A. Montanus
>Legend Entertainment




From jholder@nmsu.edu Sun Jun  9 11:39:05 CED 1996
Article: 14906 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!Germany.EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.be.innet.net!bofh.dot!INbe.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!bubba.NMSU.Edu!jholder
From: jholder@nmsu.edu (John Holder)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: How to play ftp.gmd.de games [Re:Anyone know of If-fiction FTP sites?]
Date: 6 Jun 1996 14:33:07 GMT
Organization: New Mexico State University
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Stephen Griffiths (stevgrif@moc.govt.nz) mentioned in rec.games.int-fiction that::
> Here is a very brief explanation of the programs you mention ...

> Jzip is a program for playing Infocom-format games such as those written 
> using Inform.  Jzip is available from ftp.gmd.de under the infocom 
> heading.  
Note: Jzip source distribution works under basically all UNIX's, under DOS,
under Atari ST MiNT and TOS, and supports making games into standalone 
executables on the PC platform.  (Interestingly, these standalone .exe's can
be run by Jzip on other platforms)  Jzip is known to work just fine in
DOS mode under Windows NT and 95, to boot.  Jzip also works in DOS/PC emulation
mode on RISC Acorns, from what I have read in this group.  Jzip has a command
history that, even on UNIX, uses the arrow keys to view previous commands
(on xterms and vtxxx's)  Jzip's save files are completely portable between
big and little endian architectures as well.

Jzip will someday be officially at Spec 0.2, but I am in the middle of moving
(for the last 2 months...if curious, I plan to write a paper on "How _not_
to move") to Denver.  Curiously, as Denver has the most Microbreweries in
the US of A, my code production has dropped off.  Gimmie a while, folks. ;*)

I hope this is detailed enough for you.  For more info, ie where to get
what version, etc, email me.
--
John Holder (jholder@nmsu.edu)   http://speedracer.nmsu.edu/~jholder/
          <<<< Powered by Linux and Dr. Pepper >>>>


From karim@ultegra.engr.sgi.com Fri Jun 14 00:48:43 CED 1996
Article: 14969 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: karim@ultegra.engr.sgi.com (Karim Abdalla)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: The Next Zork
Date: 12 Jun 1996 00:39:25 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
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On Tue, 28 May 1996 lairdo@cltc.com (Laird Malamed) wrote:
> 
> Dear Interactive Fiction, Adventure Game and Zork Fans,
> 
> My name is Laird Malamed and as many of you already know, I was the
> Technical Director on Zork Nemesis.  I have recently been put in charge of
> directing the next Zork game, and I would appreciate your feedback.
> 
> From the various posts and game reviews, there is a general feeling that
> Zork Nemesis is a very good game, but is not really what people think of
> as a "Zork" game.
>

I guess that is my feeling too.
 
> As a long time Zork player (still have my Apple II floppies somewhere at
> my parents' home), it is important to me to stay faithful to the original

I don't see why you have to remain faithful. I guess it depends on
whether you want to make a great game (which may or may not drop the
word "Zork" from it's title) or a "Zork" game. It sounds like you want
to make a great "Zork" game. If that's what you want, fine with me,
but you may be over-constraining yourself.  I just want to let you know
that even though enjoyed the old Zork games, I like to play any game
that is truly a great game.

This is the emphasis of my message, which I realize is not really what
you are asking here. However, my two cents worth here may still be
worth reading to let you know what one gamer thinks makes a great
game. I will also answer your original question, but won't spend as
much time doing it because it is not an aspect that is very important
to me.

> series as I design the next game.  Like ZN, the game will have a graphic
> interface, so that continues to be a major difference between the original
> nine text adventures (I include the three Enchanters and Wishbringer as
> part of the world).
> 
> However, beyond that difference, I would appreciate your input on the
> following three questions:
> 
> 
> 1.  What about Zork Nemesis did you find most enjoyable?  Least enjoyable.

Most enjoyable:
1. Logical puzzles and corresponding clues.
2. Immersive atmosphere (sound effects, music, lots of background detail),
   Q audio and Z vision.

3. Big world with many details to explore from first person point of view.
4. Don't really need to carry a large number of things in inventory.
5. No mazes, no huge amount of "walking" though uninteresting
locations. i.e. no cheap time wasting devices.

Least enjoyable:

1. Funny Zork references that broke me out of my "spell" of playing a
serious spooky game.

2. Occasionally cluttered inventory system where I had to click to
cycle through several items that I should have not brought along
(e.g. extra organ jars and the small safe from the asylum, or various
musical instruments) to get to the one you wanted. It would have been
nice to have a way to throw these things away (perhaps returning them
to their original location) once I determined I did not want them
anymore.

3. CD swapping (probably not much you can do about this until DVD
comes out). Having said that, I think you divided the game onto the
disk in an intelligent way, probably the best way.

4. Occasional jerkiness while panning.

5. It was over all too soon (about a week of playing). Actually I say
this as a complement meaning I was sorry to leave the wonderful
game. I am quite sure that I got my money's worth, and it lasted
longer than most graphic adventures I've played.

> 
> 2.  What makes a game a "Zork" game - and if you think Nemesis is not one, why?
>

I don't think Nemesis a "Zork" game, but I think Nemesis is an
excellent game. Why not a "Zork" game you ask? 

1. Most of the characters in the game do not have flat heads! 

2. The primary story of the game was based on alchemy which is
interesting part of real world history, not Zork history.

3. There was no real existence of items that are unique to the Zork
universe: no plain white cubes of magic, no weird "frotzed" object, no
Dornbeasts, etc. OK, maybe a couple of things in the monastery display
cases, but they really did not have anything to do with the game.

Essentially the world was more of a pseudo-scientific almost real
world rather than a fantasy/magical one like traditional Zork games.

Since I am more interested in primarily playing good games (which may
or may not be "Zork" games), let me instead tell you what made Nemesis
a game, rather than a simple collection of puzzles.

1. Puzzles are usually based on manipulating real things (e.g in
Asylum: cutting off head, connecting it to base, and pressing a button
that stimulates the head). This is different from the completely
abstract mini-games, such as a chess puzzle, like most of the puzzles
in 7th Guest.

2. Each puzzle has a very strong relationship to the environment that
it appears in. I.e. the cutting off head puzzle mentioned above as a
good puzzle, would be rather silly if it appeared in the monastery.

3. Puzzles often require knowing a clue which can be gotten by careful
observation somewhere away from the puzzle.

4. There are a lot of rooms to explore, and solving puzzles opens the
way to finding more rooms to explore.

5. Red Herrings (although I don't like too many of these!)
 
Finally, a feature that although not absolutely necessary to make an
adventure game, in my opinion this feature is necessary for a good
adventure game: first person point of view:

1. Visual Immersiveness - it simulates really being there.
2. *I* are playing, not controlling a puppet (as in 3rd person games) who
does not even look like me.
3. Navigation is more intuitive and usually faster.

> 3.  From the Zork History, what would you like to see in the next Zork
> Adventure?
>

While I have played all the Zork adventures so far, and have enjoyed
them all quite a lot, I am quite willing to let the Zork universe go
rather than see something contrived. In a way, Zork Nemesis was a bit
contrived, the occasionally humorous old Zork reference actually broke
the mood of this game which was primarily spooky and serious.

I like to laugh, but also I like spooky mysterious exploration. I
think Zork Nemesis would have been just as good, if not better, if it
fully exploited the spooky atmosphere without trying to make things
funny. The funny parts always make the player think, "oh the game
designers of have a sense of humor". While a compliment to you, it
does take the gamer out of the adventure world s/he was immersed in
seconds ago and makes him/her think about game designers.

I realize that the Zork name is a very good advertising tool, and I
think that is primarily how you used it. I am not criticizing you for
this. However, I think you should concentrate in making a good game
that breaks new ground and not feel obliged to have it tie in to the
Zork universe. 

I do not consider Zork Nemesis a game that is set in the Zork
universe. Perhaps I should rephrase by saying that I did not feel that
the "Zork" aspect of the game was important or very apparent to me. If
your intention was to really create something that felt like an old
Zork game, then I think you failed. If your intention was to make a
great stand-alone adventure, unrelated to a familiar previous game
universe, then you have succeeded very admirably in the creation of
Zork Nemesis.
 
In summary, Zork Nemesis is an excellent game and I hope to see more
games like it. They do not need to be set in the "Zork" universe. Zork
Nemesis is the best graphic adventure game I have ever played. To let
you know where my tastes lie, my other favorite graphic adventure
games are Myst and Buried in Time. They also had context-relevant
puzzles that involved manipulating real items.

> Thanks in advance for your replies.  If you prefer to email me instead of
> posting, my email is lairdo@cltc.com.
> 
> 
> 
> Laird
> 
> -- 
> Laird Malamed
> Director
> The Next Zork
> 
> 
> 
-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
						Karim Abdalla, MTS
						CPU Hardware group, ISD


From neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov Fri Jun 28 12:22:17 CED 1996
Article: 15293 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov (Damien Neil)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Finished _So Far_!
Date: 27 Jun 1996 16:00:15 GMT
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I finished _So Far_!  Yay!  :>

I haven't had this much sheer fun playing a game in some time.  The
writing was excellent, the puzzle design was peerless, and the
implementation was damn near perfect.

I must confess that I'm still a bit shaky on what exactly was
going on the whole time.  I strongly suspect that I managed to
miss a couple pieces of useful plot information somewhere along
the line; I'll have to go back and see if I can find anything
to pick at.  (Failing that, I'll dump the whole thing through
txd...but that's cheating. :> )

The puzzles were brilliant.  In the future, if anyone asks me
what kind of puzzles I like, I will point at _So Far_, and say,
``that''.  I can't think of a single boring or unfair one in the
lot.  No guess the verb puzzles.  No lock and key puzzles.  No
illogical puzzles.  (Hmm.  Or maybe one?  Is there a way to
determine the appropriate travel sequence in (cramped, crawling)
without the experience of prior lives?  I'm not ready to write
it off yet; I strongly suspect I missed something highly significant
there.)

My favourite puzzle of the lot: damned if I know.  The dome and
cubes, maybe.  Or the gate towers.  Or the circus beasts. Those
three are probably the ones I liked the most of the lot.

Least favourite puzzle: (formless) and (meaningless).  Very
similar (intentionally, I'm certain), and overly abstract.

Easiest puzzle: Err...to be honest, none of them were pushovers.
(Although I won with only one hint of use: the nature of the
ceramic square.  I'd have worked it out on my own; that'll teach
me to read Usenet before finishing a game.  :>  (I misinterpreted
the relationship of the clay chip to the square.))  I'll say
the gate, as it was the first puzzle I solved.

Hardest puzzle: For me, getting into the cave.  That was my `final
puzzle' for this game.  (When I solve a game, there is generally one
single puzzle whose solution evades me.  After solving it, the remainder
goes smoothly.  In _Planetfall_, it was removing the dust speck from
the relay.)

Funniest moment: The pole.

Most emotional moment: Leaving (cramped, crawling).  Is there a
better way?  The writing in that scene is masterful.

Worst part of the game: Finishing.  I want more. :>


And now, a few questions for the audience:
  Can I activate the power in the dome without filling the room with
  lichen?  It seems as though the depression/pull cord should be
  useful for this, but I just can't figure out a means of doing it.
  If only there were some way of sterilizing the room so that spores
  can't enter the cube room...

  I finished with a number of objects unused.  Are these red herrings,
  or are there fun things to do with them?  The scrap, the key, the
  ring, and the brick all come to mind.

  What's with the sculpture in the shady park?  It seems to be a
  musical instrument, and the resemblance to (cramped, crawling)
  is too clear to be coincidence.  What can I do with it?

  Is there anything fun to do in (meaningless)?  (The plane of
  geometric solids.)  I played around with the solids for endless
  amounts of time before passing (bright, bitter wind).  I especially
  like rolling the sphere around. :>

  What do the shadows in (formless) represent?  My guess at the moment
  is scenes from _Rito and Imita_, but I'm not certain.

  I'm guessing the result of giving the wrong response at the end
  has something to do with breaking from the mold of the story you
  are caught in; by stepping away from the determined plotline, you
  cast yourself out of the conclusion.  Am I even vaguely close to
  correct?  What's with the reference to the sculpture?

<whew>.  I've never finished a game with this many questions before.
(And those are only the tip of the iceberg!)  Definately time to go
back and take another look at things.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Andrew.  (Zarf?  Mr. Plotkin?
Plotkin-sensei?)  Wonderful game! 

               - Damien
-- 
The earth is flat.
All opinions expressed in the above are mine, not necessarily JPL's.



From scythe@u.washington.edu Fri Jun 28 14:18:06 CED 1996
Article: 15303 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: scythe@u.washington.edu (Dan Shiovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Finished _So Far_!
Date: 27 Jun 1996 18:00:02 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
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[Don't read this thread if you haven't finished _So Far_]

In article <slrn4t5c07.ks7.neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov>,
Damien Neil <neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>I finished _So Far_!  Yay!  :>
>
>I haven't had this much sheer fun playing a game in some time.  The
>writing was excellent, the puzzle design was peerless, and the
>implementation was damn near perfect.
>
>I must confess that I'm still a bit shaky on what exactly was
>going on the whole time.  I strongly suspect that I managed to
>miss a couple pieces of useful plot information somewhere along
>the line; I'll have to go back and see if I can find anything
>to pick at.  (Failing that, I'll dump the whole thing through
>txd...but that's cheating. :> )
As far as I can tell, all the plot comes in two sections, (three if
you count the prologue), the first being the scene with the shadow
figures, and the second being the very brief bit at the end with the 
ring of light.

>The puzzles were brilliant.  In the future, if anyone asks me
>what kind of puzzles I like, I will point at _So Far_, and say,
>``that''.  I can't think of a single boring or unfair one in the
>lot.  No guess the verb puzzles.  No lock and key puzzles.  No
>illogical puzzles.  (Hmm.  Or maybe one?  Is there a way to
>determine the appropriate travel sequence in (cramped, crawling)
>without the experience of prior lives?  I'm not ready to write
>it off yet; I strongly suspect I missed something highly significant
>there.)
Well, many of them were "illogical" in the sense it was totally
possible to get stuck without knowing why, and without warning. 
If you didn't get into the cave before going into the shadow of 
the flagpole on the island, you were stuck.  If you went the wrong 
way in (cramped, crawling) you were stuck.  If you put the pod on 
the wrong hatch at the very beginning, you were stuck.  

>My favourite puzzle of the lot: damned if I know.  The dome and
>cubes, maybe.  Or the gate towers.  Or the circus beasts. Those
>three are probably the ones I liked the most of the lot.
I had the most fun with the dinosaurs .. whee!

>Least favourite puzzle: (formless) and (meaningless).  Very
>similar (intentionally, I'm certain), and overly abstract.
Well, yeah.  I'd given up on the cave, and was stuck in the
Somewhere Else area for the longest time, with no clues as
to what to do next.  

>Easiest puzzle: Err...to be honest, none of them were pushovers.
>(Although I won with only one hint of use: the nature of the
>ceramic square.  I'd have worked it out on my own; that'll teach
>me to read Usenet before finishing a game.  :>  (I misinterpreted
>the relationship of the clay chip to the square.))  I'll say
>the gate, as it was the first puzzle I solved.
The gate, probably.  I didn't have much trouble with figuring out
which way to go in the shadow figures area, either.  (Speaking of
which, was there method to determining which way to go in this 
place or in Somewhere Else when you had the brown cube?  I just
wandered around a lot, using undo liberally, until I'd get the
proper message from going in a direction.)

>Hardest puzzle: For me, getting into the cave.  That was my `final
>Funniest moment: The pole.
>Most emotional moment: Leaving (cramped, crawling).  Is there a
Yeah, on all three.

>Worst part of the game: Finishing.  I want more. :>
Mmm.  Yes, but for different reasons.

>And now, a few questions for the audience:
>  Can I activate the power in the dome without filling the room with
>  lichen?  It seems as though the depression/pull cord should be
>  useful for this, but I just can't figure out a means of doing it.
>  If only there were some way of sterilizing the room so that spores
>  can't enter the cube room...
I think that's what the depression used to be, but with the abandonment of
the planet, it broke down.  Presumably the original folks that worked there
didn't smell the flowers before working with lichen, they just showered off
afterwards.

>  I finished with a number of objects unused.  Are these red herrings,
>  or are there fun things to do with them?  The scrap, the key, the
>  ring, and the brick all come to mind.
All red herrings, apparently.  It was fun to wave my ring and be like all
the other people at the dinosaur rodeo, though :)

>  What's with the sculpture in the shady park?  It seems to be a
>  musical instrument, and the resemblance to (cramped, crawling)
>  is too clear to be coincidence.  What can I do with it?
Well, you can play it.  I didn't think it was a musicial instrument,
exactly, except in the sense that everything on this side of the river
is musical/vocal because the rest is so silent.

>  Is there anything fun to do in (meaningless)?  (The plane of
>  geometric solids.)  I played around with the solids for endless
>  amounts of time before passing (bright, bitter wind).  I especially
>  like rolling the sphere around. :>
Well, unless you define "fun" as "stacking blocks," then no :)

>  What do the shadows in (formless) represent?  My guess at the moment
>  is scenes from _Rito and Imita_, but I'm not certain.
I think they're scenes from the romance of two people, the woman and the 
man you see briefly in (formless) and (bitter scent), respectively.
I don't think they're from Rito.. most of them seem too commonplace to
be featured in what is apparently a _Romeo and Juliet_ sort of deal.

>  I'm guessing the result of giving the wrong response at the end
>  has something to do with breaking from the mold of the story you
>  are caught in; by stepping away from the determined plotline, you
>  cast yourself out of the conclusion.  Am I even vaguely close to
>  correct?  What's with the reference to the sculpture?
I don't know either.  For that matter, I'm not sure one ending is so
much better that it should have the "You won" attached to it.  

>               - Damien
--
dan shiovitz scythe@u.washington.edu shiov@cs.washington.edu
slightly lost author/programmer in a world of more creative or more sensible
people ... remember to speak up for freedom because no one else will do it
for you: use it or lose it ... carpe diem -- be proactive.
my web site: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~scythe/home.html some ok stuff.





From mol@marvin.df.lth.se Fri Jun 28 14:28:30 CED 1996
Article: 15306 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!mol
From: mol@marvin.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Finished _So Far_!
Date: 28 Jun 1996 12:27:40 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4r0j3s$3el@news.lth.se>
References: <slrn4t5c07.ks7.neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov> <4qui72$e5t@nntp4.u.washington.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin.df.lth.se
NNTP-Posting-User: mol

In article <4qui72$e5t@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
Dan Shiovitz <scythe@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>[Don't read this thread if you haven't finished _So Far_]
>
>In article <slrn4t5c07.ks7.neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov>,
>Damien Neil <neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>which way to go in the shadow figures area, either.  (Speaking of
>which, was there method to determining which way to go in this 
>place or in Somewhere Else when you had the brown cube?  I just
>wandered around a lot, using undo liberally, until I'd get the
>proper message from going in a direction.)

Shadow figures: just go in the direction of greatest resistance until
you stop feeling the resistance, then go back one step and try another
direction. 

Brown cube: After the cube has changed for the first time, try just moving
the cube ("move cube north", for example). Personally, I couldn't get
this last one, but had to ask the author for help. I think it's a great
puzzle, but a bit too subtle. 

>>Hardest puzzle: For me, getting into the cave.  That was my `final
>>Funniest moment: The pole.
>>Most emotional moment: Leaving (cramped, crawling).  Is there a
>Yeah, on all three.

I found the dark area with the sounds to be the hardest, but then I was
playing a beta version which didn't accept as many alternative syntaxes
as the release version. The most intellectually satisfying puzzle was
the one with the gate, the funniest _puzzle_ that with the dinosaurs.
The pole was a niece piece of slapstick, but I don't consider it a
puzzle. The most emotional part of the game was the encounter with
the boy in the cramped space.

>>  Can I activate the power in the dome without filling the room with
>>  lichen?  It seems as though the depression/pull cord should be
>>  useful for this, but I just can't figure out a means of doing it.
>>  If only there were some way of sterilizing the room so that spores
>>  can't enter the cube room...
>I think that's what the depression used to be, but with the abandonment of
>the planet, it broke down.  Presumably the original folks that worked there
>didn't smell the flowers before working with lichen, they just showered off
>afterwards.

The flowers have nothing to do with the lichen. They counter the effects
of being exposed to the radiation from the blocks inside the dome.


-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se)
Speaking as a private citizen & taxpayer - no more, no less.


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Sat Jun 29 16:20:32 CED 1996
Article: 15327 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!uclink.berkeley.edu!whizzard
From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Activision's new (old) release?
Date: 27 Jun 1996 18:39:34 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4qukh6$lju@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <4qu0rv$p6g@rose.muohio.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu

In article <4qu0rv$p6g@rose.muohio.edu>,
Shaken Angel <jbfink@ogre.lib.muohio.edu> wrote:
>I think my NNTP server was being a tad flaky; at any rate, I remember 
>seeing some thread about Activision releasing *ALL* the old Infocom IF on 
>a Mac/PC combo CD-ROM early next month.  Is this true?  If so, I will 
>*definitely* rush right out and get it.  However, I don't know what the 
>name of this release will be!  Makes it tough to go to the store and ask 
>for it.  Any help would be appreciated!

It's Infocom Masterpieces.  It has all the games from LTOI 1 and 2 but 
Hitchhiker's.  There was some sort of licensing trouble there.  All the
manuals and such are included in Adobe Acrobat format, with a reader to
check them out.  There are hints and maps for most every game as well, and
they should be much better formatted than the LTOI hintbooks.  In
addition, there are excerpts from the old Infocom email archives, stuff
like game ideas that never got off the ground, etc.

>-- sa / a
>and the decision to include the IF competition winners is definitely a 
>kick-ass move.  Activision, I applaud thee.

Likewise.  The authors made money, which makes them more likely to keep
writing I-F, and their games get additional exposure.  There are also
pointers to this newgroup and ftp.gmd.de and such, so maybe we'll see some
new faces around here, metaphorically speaking.


-- 
	"Unspeakable glyphs discolor the filth-blackened walls of this 
infernal sanctum.  Scribed in the center of the room is a blood red 
circle inlaid with a silver pentagram."
		-An excerpt from "Avalon", a game under construction.


From patrickc@Direct.CA Sat Jun 29 16:20:55 CED 1996
Article: 15321 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!online.no!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!van-bc!newsfeed.direct.ca!pleung
From: patrickc@Direct.CA (Cthulhu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Activision's new (old) release?
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 12:23:21 GMT
Organization: Canada Internet Direct, Inc.
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4qv4tl$2ri@orb.direct.ca>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: van-as-05c02.direct.ca
X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #0

In article <4qukh6$lju@agate.berkeley.edu>, whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson) wrote:

>It's Infocom Masterpieces.  It has all the games from LTOI 1 and 2 but 
>Hitchhiker's.  There was some sort of licensing trouble there.  

There wasn't any licensing trouble when LTOI1 came out. There wasn't any 
problem when the Sci-Fi Collection came out. Why is there a problem now?

>All the
>manuals and such are included in Adobe Acrobat format, with a reader to
>check them out. 

Why won't good-ol paper be included? Are they trying to save trees or 
something? Or are they just trying to cut the production costs?

>There are hints and maps for most every game as well, and
>they should be much better formatted than the LTOI hintbooks.  In
>addition, there are excerpts from the old Infocom email archives, stuff
>like game ideas that never got off the ground, etc.

Well that's excellent. Tell me, WILL LGOP BE INCLUDED? How about ARTHUR, 
JOURNEY, and SHOGUN? And WILL THE GAMES  BE THE SOLID GOLD EDITIONS? If 
so, then it would be even more excellent!


From mamster@u.washington.edu Sat Jun 29 16:21:13 CED 1996
Article: 15316 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!online.no!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!root
From: mamster@u.washington.edu (Matthew Amster-Burton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Activision's new (old) release?
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:56:57 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4quvsq$ne0@nntp4.u.washington.edu>
References: <4qu0rv$p6g@rose.muohio.edu> <4qukh6$lju@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mamster.cdmrc.washington.edu
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson) wrote:

>It's Infocom Masterpieces.  It has all the games from LTOI 1 and 2 but 
>Hitchhiker's.  There was some sort of licensing trouble there.  All the
>manuals and such are included in Adobe Acrobat format, with a reader to
>check them out.  There are hints and maps for most every game as well, and
>they should be much better formatted than the LTOI hintbooks.  In
>addition, there are excerpts from the old Infocom email archives, stuff
>like game ideas that never got off the ground, etc.

This sounds absolutely, unequivocally fantastic.  Did Activision kick
their meth habit or something?

>Likewise.  The authors made money, which makes them more likely to keep
>writing I-F, and their games get additional exposure.  There are also
>pointers to this newgroup and ftp.gmd.de and such, so maybe we'll see some
>new faces around here, metaphorically speaking.

Wait!  This is even better!  I hope they push this collection with all
their marketing might.  Hey, any Activision folks around?  If so, are
you going to do full-page four-color ads in PC Gamer, Computer Gaming
World, and the like?  Please say yes.

Oh, one other request for Activision, while you're on a role:  when
you send promo copies of this collection to reviewers, include press
materials (perhaps in large type with few multisyllabic words) talking
about the history of the games and the r.a.i-f crowd so the reporters
don't make so many horrendous factual errors.

Whew!

Matthew




From SusanD@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 29 16:26:28 CED 1996
Article: 15341 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!mn6.swip.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.be.innet.net!INbe.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: SusanD@ix.netcom.com (Susan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Cornerstone?
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:58:43 -0700
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <31d4387c.468249@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qqvu9$lnk$2@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> <31D10EC7.2D58@legendent.com> <31d17803.6801833@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <31d3ef3f.6610095@news.avid.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slo-ca1-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 28  1:58:45 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227

>>	Is it of any value today or just a keepsake of what more than
>>anything else did Infocom in back then?  Well, it shows that even
>>Infocom was loosing interest in text adventures.  :)  I wonder if they
>>might have survived to this day if they had not bought this outrageous
>>product and instead had drastically downsized the company?

>Whatever it may have done to
>Infocom, it was a pretty good database for its time.  Had v2.0 come
>out, it would have continued to sell.  V2.0 was much faster, which was
>the major complaint about v1.0.

	I was an adventurer at the time and Infocom marketing a database
didn't make sense to me.  As I watched it fail and watched graphic
adventures become more successful it was easy, if not unfair, to blame
Infocom's demise on Cornerstone.

>Cornerstone wasn't bought, it was developed in-house at Infocom, by
>a completely (well, almost completely) different development team than
>worked on the games.

	I'm sorry.  Look, I hated Cornerstone and I put Infocom up on a
pedestal.  It is that simple.

>Infocom never "lost interest" in text adventures.  In fact, every
>effort to get the Imps. to be interested in anything but pure text was
>like getting cats to perform close-order drill.  Cornerstone was
>profoundly hated by many within the company, as was Fooblitzky, the
>graphics games, the Infocomics, and the imports from Activision.

	Certainly not in the old days, and apparently there was no lost
interest inside the company, but with Activision you had no choice.
LGOP was superb but LGOP2 goes down with Cornerstone.

>IMHO, what Infocom did wrong with Cornerstone (from a strategic
>point of view, rather than a tactical one) is fail to understand that
>no (well, almost no) venture capitalists would invest in a company
>that did games _and_ business software.

	IMHO, and as an outsider, I agree.  And not many adventurers were
interested in it for $500 either.  :(

>Infocom should have spun off Cornerstone as a separate company
>(and retained a major equity position in it).  Had it done so, it is
>possible that both companies would still be alive today.

	Dave, if Infocom were alive today do you think it would be
turning out pure text adventures still or do you think Infocom would
have had to enter the graphics market also?

>At the time Cornerstone was starting to be developed, Infocom was
>profitable, dominated its market, and was generally considered a
>reasonable candidate for an IPO within a year or so.  Why would it
>want to downsize under those circumstances?

	Not when Infocom was in its hay-day but afterward when text was
spinning down and graphics spinning up.  I guess Activision did
downsize Infocom.  I don't think I ever thought Infocom would remain
Infocom under a parent company that wouldn't resist influencing its
text products.

	I am so sorry it turned out the way it did but grateful for all
you and the other Implementors gave us Dave.  It was my greatest
adventure time.

>	Dave Lebling
>	[Original Imp. and Infocom co-Fovnder]
>	(david_lebling@avid.com)

	Still looks good.  I read once recently that you lurked around
here.  I regret I may have said something to torment you enough to
respond.  But, on the other hand, it is nice to see you again.

	Do you ever dream of writing another adventure?  There are many
here who do.

	* Susan *  <SusanD@ix.netcom.com>


From maga@vetbio.unizh.ch Sat Jun 29 16:28:57 CED 1996
Article: 15332 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!oslonett.no!sn.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!news.sri.ucl.ac.be!news.belnet.be!swsbe6.switch.ch!scsing.switch.ch!rzunews.unizh.ch!NewsWatcher!user
From: maga@vetbio.unizh.ch (Giovanni Maga)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: SoFar-ended! (very mild spoilers)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:56:59 +0000
Organization: University of Zurich Irchel- Biochemistry
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <maga-2806961357000001@130.60.120.10>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.60.120.10


Let me join you guys, who have solved SoFar. I need to play it again
before saying anything...it was just too unusual (IMHO). Just a couple of
things: the puzzles that took me the longest time to solve were the snowy
cave and getting a permanent source of light. The most *traditional*, but
not the easiest for me, was the gate/pillars, the easiest were (formless)
and the geometrycal plane, the most unusual and genial was the sounds
sequel. There were also many more little nice things scattered around the
game, that I would like to get back by playing it once more. Thanks to all
the guys who helped me and thank you Andy!
Cheers, Giovanni.


From erkyrath+@CMU.EDU Sat Jun 29 16:29:21 CED 1996
Article: 15342 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ap1i+
From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: _So Far_ downloading
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 18:37:13 -0400
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <Ilp5uNy00WB3MStTJf@andrew.cmu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu

This is probably unnecessary flogging, but nevertheless I'll mention
that _So Far_ has been moved from the /incoming directory, to a new
home at 
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/unprocessed/SoFar.z8

Presumably this is temporary, and it will eventually wind up in
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/infocom/SoFar.z8

I've also sent a Mac version (with bundled interpreter) to the big Mac
FTP sites, but they have a miserable backlog these days, so it hasn't
appeared yet.

By the way, I'm really delighted by everyone's reactions. I think I
win or something. 

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."


From dtrg@st-andrews.ac.uk Sun Jun 30 22:21:11 CED 1996
Article: 15361 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!mn6.swip.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!strath-cs!st-and!dtrg
From: dtrg@st-andrews.ac.uk (David Thomas Richard Given)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Free Legend game - Frederik Pohl's Gateway!
Date: 29 Jun 1996 20:34:01 GMT
Organization: University Of St. Andrews, Fife, UK.
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4r43vp$363@calvin.st-and.ac.uk>
References: <31C163E0.6B66@legendent.com> <1996Jun15.193949@opie.bgsu.edu> <4q1d5r$7km@wanda.phl.pond.com> <4qerqp$s58@bubba.NMSU.Edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: edge.st-and.ac.uk
NNTP-Posting-User: dtrg

In article <4qerqp$s58@bubba.NMSU.Edu>, John Holder <jholder@nmsu.edu> wrote:
>Matthew T. Russotto (russotto@wanda.phl.pond.com) mentioned in rec.games.int-fiction that::
>> They are mime type application/zip, which Netscape ought to download
>> as binary (not knowing any different).  They are probably just plain
>> bad.
>
>Got all three using the 1st http address, all 5meg (3 files) came through
>fine using Netscape 2.01.

....and it is a *good* game. It's not terribly hard, but it's great fun.
This, IMO, is what a modern text adventure game should be; graphics and
music for mood and so on, and the odd animation, but they can all be
turned off and you're left with a pure text game engine (that actually
looks suspiciously like Infocom's. The parser is very similar, apart
from not supporting the "WAITER, GET ME A DRINK" syntax and if you use
a word it doesn't know it says "[You don't need to use `foo' in the
game.]").

BTW, I've successfully managed to rip out the music in the form of MIDI
files and I'm going through them now. It sounds *much* better through
a decent sound card than it does through crappy ol' OPL3. Some of the
music is completely unrecognisable. I can't distribute them due to
copyright reasons but if you get a program called Ripper 4 and use it
on GATE_*.MUS you'll get about thirty midi files out. No doubt you can
do the same with the graphics but I haven't been bothered to try it
yet.


-- 
------------------- http://www-hons-cs.cs.st-and.ac.uk/~dg --------------------
   If you're up against someone more intelligent than you are, do something
    totally insane and let him think himself to death.  --- Pyanfar Chanur
---------------- Sun-Earther David Daton Given of Lochcarron ------------------



From erkyrath+@CMU.EDU Thu Jul  4 19:08:25 CED 1996
Article: 15431 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!oslonett.no!sn.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!news-e2a.gnn.com!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ap1i+
From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: _So Far_, Stuck & Need Help
Date: Wed,  3 Jul 1996 13:19:12 -0400
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <AlqeiE200WB3E_U6Q9@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <31d954d8.36173822@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <31d954d8.36173822@nntp.ix.netcom.com>

SusanD@ix.netcom.com (Susan) writes:
>         First of all, a trivial question:  Several people have used the
> "underscore bar" as I did in the title.  Is this just an "attractor"
> or is it conventionally the way of indicating a title that is
> underlined rather than one set off in quotes, which may technically be
> improper?

Yes, the underscores are a Usenet convention to indicate underlining.
(And underlining is a typescript convention to indicate italics...
isn't this fun?)

It is my affectation to refer to "A Change in the Weather" in quotes,
since it is a short story, and _So Far_ in italics, since it is, well,
longer than a short story. (I wouldn't call it a novel.) I don't
expect everyone to pay this much attention.



*** SPOILERS for the first scene ***

>         Also, in general, I read that saving and restoring and replaying
> sections of the game will be necessary.  I don't mind that to some
> degree, but I would like to confirm my greatest fear, that if I forget
> to do something early on, like picking up the strange box in the
> cabinet, will eventually and hours later lead to a "no win" situation?

Yes, that can definitely happen. (In fact, when I was running through
the game to make sure it worked, I *frequently* forgot to pick up the
damn box myself. Arghh.)

However, I would point out that after some practice, I could run
through the entire game in five minutes flat. Admittedly I'm a fast
typer and I have a fast machine. But if you do get into a no win
situation, it shouldn't take you that long to rebuild your position.

Also, when you're saving and restoring, never delete or overwrite a
save file. Keep them all.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."


From vuorinen@mopo.cc.lut.fi Sat Jul  6 20:15:24 MET DST 1996
Article: 15460 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: vuorinen@mopo.cc.lut.fi (Mikko Vuorinen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-F, QUIPS AND BLOOPERS
Date: 3 Jul 1996 11:16:13 +0300
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russotto@wanda.phl.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto) writes:

>In article <4rbjbn$dc3@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
> <balavage@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:

>}	What commands have you made that were ridiculous, and that you will 
>}admit to?
>}
>}	What are some of the more humorous responses you have gotten ?
>}
>}
>}	These things were a part of the charm of playing text adventures that
>}you can't get from point and click.

>My all-time favorite wasn't really ridiculous, but I didn't expect
>it to work. 

> Minors Spoilers for Shogun, also vulgarity

>One scene in Shogun involves a hot tub, a girl named Mariko, and the 
>male character.  Naturally, I typed "FUCK MARIKO".  My
>character was described as doing just that, and I got a point for it.

Legend of the Sword is full of silly responses. For example one way to 
kill a tiger is to try to rape it. I fell off my chair when I typed "RAPE 
TIGER" and the poor tiger fell off the tree and died. Then you can 
naturally try to rape corpses and everyone you come across. If you try to 
rape a treant you'll get: "There are not any squirrel holes." Part of the 
charm of that game were those silly responses to silly actions. It's 
possible to examine your penis (about 3 inches long fully erect if I 
remember correctly) and play with it. Showing it to someone produces the 
response "You dirty old man!" or something like that. You can also ask 
your companions to fart or puke, and they do that.

-- 
  ))))      ((((     ********************************
 ))  OO   `oo'(((    *   E-mail:  vuorinen@lut.fi   *   "Yes."
 6   (_)   (  (((    *   IRC:     Dilbon            *   - William Shakespeare
 `____c    8__/(((   ********************************


From jmontanu@legendent.com Sat Jul  6 20:15:38 MET DST 1996
Article: 15442 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: "James A. Montanus" <jmontanu@legendent.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-F, QUIPS AND BLOOPERS
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 05:36:37 -0400
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How about typing 'ESCAPE' in HHGTTG - definately obscure, but it sends 
you
back through a worm hole in time, and you get killed by Attilla the Hun 
(or is it Ghengis Kahn?), Anyway, the ancestor of Prosser, if I'm not 
mistaken.

Jim Montanus +++


From SusanD@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  6 20:16:40 MET DST 1996
Article: 15455 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: SusanD@ix.netcom.com (Susan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: _So Far_: Stuck Again And Need Another Push
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 12:54:29 -0700
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>>         You hold one end of the twisted rod against the box's pale discs.
>> The prongs fit the incised stars once, you feel sure.  No more."

>Dan Shiovitz got it right. 

	Yes, and I get it now too.  Thank you Dan.  Now that I read it
correctly I cannot think of how I would write it different.  However,
if I could only straighten the key out.

>There's also the problem that if a player gets two different
>responses, he may think something's changed.

	How true.  In fact, I would be a good candidate to post the
question.  :(

	That chimney shadow was a BIG miss!  What (a) strange world(s)
you have created.  Actually, I think there is only one, maybe
different ages; maybe it will tie together, but after how many more
"shadows"?  :)  Hmmm...  Maybe I can drop the key in the dirt and the
strange jumping creatures will land on it and straighten it back out
again for me.  I can then go back to the Snowy Slope and find a good
key instead of one all bent up?  :)

	Stay tuned...  I'll be back.

	* Susan *  <SusanD@ix.netcom.com>


From matm@va.pubnix.com Sat Jul  6 20:17:29 MET DST 1996
Article: 15456 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: matm@va.pubnix.com (Matthew MacKenzie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: not very _Far_
Date: 05 Jul 1996 15:57:15 -0400
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I just found out about this terrific game this morning, and I'm
already so stuck I'm resorting to a nice humiliating public cry for
help.

If you've seen fewer than four sections, you're even more stuck than I
am and should avoid these SPOILERS--























I've gotten as far as the castle balcony; the only puzzles I've solved
are the gate in the wall and the blocks in the dome.  I've got two
bits of ceramic from the place where everyone's quiet (triangle,
square); a pod; an incidental chunk of brick; and that nifty little
box.  And after reading Zarf's excellent prose for two and a half
hours I'm using far more semicolons than usual.

I can't find any more supernatural shadows, or advance anywhere.  The
doors in the dome remain locked, the castle impassible, the dancers on
the hilltop murderous and the passers-by on the mall speechless.  The
more subtle the hint the more I'll appreciate it, at least for now.

Thanks for any help!

-- 
_____________________________________________________________________________
 "We are here and it is now.
  Further than that, all knowledge is moonshine."  -- H.L. Mencken
                  matm@va.pubnix.com        Matthew MacKenzie



From russotto@wanda.phl.pond.com Sun Jul  7 11:55:35 CED 1996
Article: 15466 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: russotto@wanda.phl.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: SoFar - Finished
Date: 6 Jul 1996 12:00:50 -0400
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Spoilers -- do not read if you haven't finished the game


















This game was noteable, I think, for the sheer number of useless
objects and/or red herrings.

1) The bench, and the old man.  It's just a bench -- nothing under it,
nothing on it, nothing you can do with it.  And the old man is just a
crotchety janitor, nothing more -- he's no help

2) The kegman -- just window dressing.

3) The crack by the door.  I'd say the door itself, but I suspect that
had to do with the story.  It certainly seemed to fit the theme.

4) The scrap of blue stuff.  I have no idea what this was.  Anyone?

5) The brick.  Seemed like a deliberate diversion to me.

6) The hay.  Again, seemed likely to be deliberately confusing to the
typical adventure-game player.

7) The canvas.  More window dressing

8) The silver chain -- I expected to find someone who had lost it, but
it seems entirely without purpose.  Perhaps another gamer-confuser?

9) The pull-chain and depression.  I suspect this was some sort of
decontamination shower, now broken.

10) The locked door.  Just there to irritate.

11) The key.  There's got to be a story behind it, right?

12) The clay chip -- this I think was supposed to be helpful.

13) The candy rod.  Probably there to infuriate the adventurer who
thinks he needs EVERYTHING.

14) The moss.  You can cook it, and it explains how the boy lives, but
there's nothing more.

15) The geometrical objects.  Maybe there's a meaning to them, but I
suspect they are there to frustrate anyone who gets there at the wrong
time.

16) The broken pipe structure.  Just a counterpart to the working one.

17) The sculpture in the park.  It's mentioned in one of the endings.

18) The bubbling sound.  A case of the author helping the adventurer,
maybe.

19) The sand.  More gamer-confusion?

Similarly, there seemed to be a lot of loose ends:

0) What were we doing?  Who made those shadows, and the various weird
sculptures that cast some of them?  And where are we?

1) The civilization that made the chimney, the gate, the dome, the
mounds, and the castle.  Who were they?  That weird magenta lichen must
have evolved since they disappeared, sealing the hatch for the last time.

2) The animal that made those tracks.

3) Why were those people silent?  What was the meaning of those rituals?

4) The boy caught in metal.  Who is he?  How long has he been there?
And where is 'caught in metal' anyway?

5) The two bright spots caught in metal.  What are they?  

6) For that matter, what's the meaning of the chord, flapping thing,
and the dark noisy place itself?

7) And what about the place with the small sun and the roofless cell.
The game indicates we may be able to slip through the bars, but won't
actually accept any commands to do so.

Oh, well, I'm full of questions and have no answers.  Except about the
one point.  I found the point and the way to get it is}}}}}r}}}}i}}}
NO CARRIER
-- 
Matthew T. Russotto      russotto@pond.com     russotto@his.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue." 


From scythe@u.washington.edu Sun Jul  7 11:57:21 CED 1996
Article: 15468 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: scythe@u.washington.edu (Dan Shiovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar - Finished
Date: 6 Jul 1996 17:59:42 GMT
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In article <4rm2ji$8kk@wanda.phl.pond.com>,
Matthew T. Russotto <russotto@wanda.phl.pond.com> wrote:
>

>Spoilers -- do not read if you haven't finished the game
>This game was noteable, I think, for the sheer number of useless
>objects and/or red herrings.
  Right.  I expect this is the direction adventure games are going to have
to go in the future.  Because we're letting people examine more and more
objects that were just "scenery" (whatever that is) before, it seems only
reasonable to let them pick up stuff.  Many of the other red herrings
seemed to be for atmospheric purposes, and so I guess you could say they
weren't "useless" at all.  For example, the broken-down helixes in the 
first world, the pull-chain, the castle filled with ivy, etc, all really
drove it home that this was a lost and abandoned world.

[..]
>11) The key.  There's got to be a story behind it, right?
Presumably.  Someone else on this group noticed that the key was
supposed to fit the designs on the box at one time, but then there's
still no explanation why it ended up in the snowy world.

>12) The clay chip -- this I think was supposed to be helpful.
I assume so.  It was supposed to be a weathered version of the
triangular piece you break off the square.

>13) The candy rod.  Probably there to infuriate the adventurer who
>thinks he needs EVERYTHING.
Also, presumably to make it so the player has to decide which to take
(although I guess this isn't so bad, since it actually is possible to
figure out that you need the knife and the jug without having to play,
then restore, then pick the right items.)

>14) The moss.  You can cook it, and it explains how the boy lives, but
>there's nothing more.
But how the heck did the boy *get* there in the first place?  Unless
someone comes along every hundred years and drops more pipes there, in
just the right spot.

>15) The geometrical objects.  Maybe there's a meaning to them, but I
>suspect they are there to frustrate anyone who gets there at the wrong
>time.
It worked for me.

>17) The sculpture in the park.  It's mentioned in one of the endings.
Does a double-reinforcement of the "different worlds" idea.  This world,
the silent world, isn't the character's world, and it isn't the *player's*
world either.  Also it's a musical instrument, so you have the silent/sound
contrast.  

>18) The bubbling sound.  A case of the author helping the adventurer,
>maybe.
Yeah.  I think so.

>Similarly, there seemed to be a lot of loose ends:
>
>0) What were we doing?  Who made those shadows, and the various weird
>sculptures that cast some of them?  And where are we?
Right.  Well.. we're clearly someone from another world, probably rather
close to our own, but with two moons.  We don't enter the first shadow
for any particular reason, other than that the game will be over if we
don't.  Oh, and actually there's also the suggestion that we're vaguely
dissatisfied with life, the weather, and our relationship with Aessa 
(whatever her (?) name is), and the autumn breeze from the shadow comes
as a change ... There's no explanation for the shadows or the sculptures.
Most of them seem to be natural to the landscape, though.  I'm a bit
inclined to think the leaping figures in white that have you in that cage
were responsible, but I've got no proof.

>1) The civilization that made the chimney, the gate, the dome, the
>mounds, and the castle.  Who were they?  That weird magenta lichen must
>have evolved since they disappeared, sealing the hatch for the last time.

I think it was some sort of pleasure-world .. I mean, c'mon, a *castle*?
I'm a bit partial to the idea that the dome was a research station where
they accidentally developed the lichen, right before the station occupants
killed each other (for unknown reasons).  The people in the castle would 
have been stuck when the power died, unless they went out the front gate.

>2) The animal that made those tracks.
Some sort of wolf-critter, maybe?  I don't think the dinosaurs would have
survived the cold climate.

>3) Why were those people silent?  What was the meaning of those rituals?
Got me.  Part of the question is if the people on the island across the
river were the same people or not.  It could be you happen to arrive in
the middle of some religious ritual.

>4) The boy caught in metal.  Who is he?  How long has he been there?
>And where is 'caught in metal' anyway?
>5) The two bright spots caught in metal.  What are they?  
>6) For that matter, what's the meaning of the chord, flapping thing,
>and the dark noisy place itself?
I'm as confused about these as you are.  Also, "What are the grooves in
the floor of the top layer, and why are they covered (see ceiling of
floor below)

>7) And what about the place with the small sun and the roofless cell.
>The game indicates we may be able to slip through the bars, but won't
>actually accept any commands to do so.
I think "enter bars" works, but it doesn't do any good.

>Matthew T. Russotto      russotto@pond.com     russotto@his.com
--
dan shiovitz scythe@u.washington.edu shiov@cs.washington.edu
slightly lost author/programmer in a world of more creative or more sensible
people ... remember to speak up for freedom because no one else will do it
for you: use it or lose it ... carpe diem -- be proactive.
my web site: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~scythe/home.html some ok stuff.





From erkyrath+@CMU.EDU Mon Jul  8 19:23:36 MET DST 1996
Article: 15478 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: _So Far_: Stuck Again And Need Another Push
Date: Fri,  5 Jul 1996 12:53:12 -0400
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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SusanD@ix.netcom.com (Susan) writes:
>         ">put key on disc
>         You hold one end of the twisted rod against the box's pale discs.
> The prongs fit the incised stars once, you feel sure.  No more."
> 
>         What is this telling me, for god's sake?  :)  Can you say it a
> different way?

Dan Shiovitz got it right. 

>  BTW, (speaking to the author if he reads this) as an
> idea to help in explaining something difficult like this that you have
> probably spent hours trying to develop correctly, does Inform let you
> say the same thing different ways, i.e., could I repeat the same input
> ">put key on disc" and get different meaningful responses?

Sure. I don't find it to be a useful technique, though. If the
sentence is unclear, it should be rewritten, not added to.
Contrariwise, the rewritten sentence is just as likely to be unclear
to someone else. Unless two or more players misunderstand something,
I usually leave it alone.

There's also the problem that if a player gets two different
responses, he may think something's changed.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."


From neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov Sun Jul 14 20:32:20 MET DST 1996
Article: 15558 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov (Damien Neil)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar - Finished
Date: 9 Jul 1996 23:08:45 GMT
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On 6 Jul 1996 17:59:42 GMT, Dan Shiovitz <scythe@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>>Spoilers -- do not read if you haven't finished the game

>>11) The key.  There's got to be a story behind it, right?
>Presumably.  Someone else on this group noticed that the key was
>supposed to fit the designs on the box at one time, but then there's
>still no explanation why it ended up in the snowy world.

Or, for that matter, what the box was doing in a cabinet in the
protagonist's home world.

One hypothesis I have is that the entire sequence from entering
the first shadow onwards is a metaphorical representation of the
character's state of mind...although this doesn't really fit all
that well.  Besides, saying `it was all just a dream' is a bit
too trite.

On this topic, any thoughts about the subtitle?  (`An interactive
catharsis'.)  Judging by the `good' ending, the experience was
certainly cathartic for the protagonist, but it seems indicative
of something that this would be important enough to put into the
subtitle.  (And what about the title itself?  `So Far'...does it
fit into anything?

>>12) The clay chip -- this I think was supposed to be helpful.
>I assume so.  It was supposed to be a weathered version of the
>triangular piece you break off the square.

A clue that went straight over my head.  I thought it was supposed
to fit into the groove on the square, until I actually discovered
how to use the square.

>>14) The moss.  You can cook it, and it explains how the boy lives, but
>>there's nothing more.
>But how the heck did the boy *get* there in the first place?  Unless
>someone comes along every hundred years and drops more pipes there, in
>just the right spot.

The moss certainly isn't a red herring; if it weren't there, the boy
would make even less sense than he does.

I'm almost positive the entire `caught in metal' section has a link to
the musical sculpture in the park.  The changing sizes of the levels,
the high and low notes of the pipes...

That disc on the sculpture is tantalizing, too.  A map on one side,
but deformed from the perspective of your character.  I'm guessing
that the disc depicts half of a sphere, and the protagonist is used
to maps of a (supposedly) flat world.

>>15) The geometrical objects.  Maybe there's a meaning to them, but I
>>suspect they are there to frustrate anyone who gets there at the wrong
>>time.
>It worked for me.

Ditto.  I still think the sphere was fun to play with. :>

>>18) The bubbling sound.  A case of the author helping the adventurer,
>>maybe.
>Yeah.  I think so.

Well, if there are useless objects, there may as well be useless sounds. :>

>Most of them seem to be natural to the landscape, though.  I'm a bit
>inclined to think the leaping figures in white that have you in that cage
>were responsible, but I've got no proof.

Think so?  Everything from the ice cave interior on confused the
heck out of me.  What was that large spinning sphere?  Who were the
people in white?  What is trapped in the ice?  Why is there sound
coming from the ice wall?  Did the author enjoy writing large numbers
of insolvable mysteries?

>I think it was some sort of pleasure-world .. I mean, c'mon, a *castle*?
>I'm a bit partial to the idea that the dome was a research station where
>they accidentally developed the lichen, right before the station occupants
>killed each other (for unknown reasons).  The people in the castle would 
>have been stuck when the power died, unless they went out the front gate.

Did you look in the moat?  The nasty metal bits down there looked a
bit too functional for the place to be purely recreational.  Someone
put that wall up for a reason, too.  (Curiosity: how was that gate
supposed to be opened, back when everything worked?  I didn't notice
any machinery to move the ropes.)

Whoever lived in that world was pretty good at genetic engineering,
I'd say.  That oil pod plant is just a bit too useful to have evolved
on its own.  The road-moss seems to be a dandy substitute for asphalt.
(Hell...looks like it works significantly better, considering the lack
of road decay.)  The vines clogging the castle were no accident; they
can't be burned, are too tough to cut, too springy to climb...

I'm not certain where the lichen fits in.  An accidental mutation
perhaps?  Warfare?  (I still say it reminds me of the Cthorr, too.
I kept half-expecting to be eaten by worms. :> )

>>2) The animal that made those tracks.
>Some sort of wolf-critter, maybe?  I don't think the dinosaurs would have
>survived the cold climate.

Something indiginous to the ice, I'd say.  Probably just as well we
never run into it...the hunting out there looked a bit sparse.

>>3) Why were those people silent?  What was the meaning of those rituals?
>Got me.  Part of the question is if the people on the island across the
>river were the same people or not.  It could be you happen to arrive in
>the middle of some religious ritual.

The silence doesn't seem all that strange to me...people can be odd.
I'm more curious as to what they were doing in the plaza.  What's
going on in those buildings?  How are people moving from one end
of the plaza to the other?

>>6) For that matter, what's the meaning of the chord, flapping thing,
>>and the dark noisy place itself?

Andrew Plotkin decided to do a darkness puzzle as good as the one
in _Christminster_?  :>

                    - Damien
-- 
The earth is flat.
All opinions expressed in the above are mine, not necessarily JPL's.



From scythe@u.washington.edu Sun Jul 14 20:32:55 MET DST 1996
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From: scythe@u.washington.edu (Dan Shiovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar - Finished
Date: 10 Jul 1996 00:09:35 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 71
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References: <4rm2ji$8kk@wanda.phl.pond.com> <4rm9ie$frb@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <slrn4u5pjs.nll.neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov>
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In article <slrn4u5pjs.nll.neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov>,
Damien Neil <neild@godzilla.jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>On 6 Jul 1996 17:59:42 GMT, Dan Shiovitz <scythe@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>>>Spoilers -- do not read if you haven't finished the game

[..]
>On this topic, any thoughts about the subtitle?  (`An interactive
>catharsis'.)  Judging by the `good' ending, the experience was
>certainly cathartic for the protagonist, but it seems indicative
>of something that this would be important enough to put into the
>subtitle.  (And what about the title itself?  `So Far'...does it
>fit into anything?

I assumed it was from "So near and yet so far", viz, that these worlds
were close to yours yet somehow quite different.  

[..]
>That disc on the sculpture is tantalizing, too.  A map on one side,
>but deformed from the perspective of your character.  I'm guessing
>that the disc depicts half of a sphere, and the protagonist is used
>to maps of a (supposedly) flat world.

Well, or it could just be that the continents of the world depicted are
stretched in different ways, as if this was a view of the world in the far
future or past when the land masses had moved.  

[..]
>>Most of them seem to be natural to the landscape, though.  I'm a bit
>>inclined to think the leaping figures in white that have you in that cage
>>were responsible, but I've got no proof.
>
>Think so?  Everything from the ice cave interior on confused the
>heck out of me.  What was that large spinning sphere?  Who were the
>people in white?  What is trapped in the ice?  Why is there sound
>coming from the ice wall?  Did the author enjoy writing large numbers
>of insolvable mysteries?

Ok.. let's see.  IMO, the "point" of the game was for your character to 
rejoin two people.  I don't know if these were actual people, or 
archetypes of people that you and Aessa and Rito and Imita play out.  You
see the woman first, as the glowing spinning sphere in (somewhere), and
then the man in the desert/cage area.  Then, I think, it's a process of 
bringing one of the pair along with you, it changing as you enter each new
world, until finally you unite it with the ring of light and the breach is
healed.  Apparently, yes, Andrew does lots of unsolvable mysteries.  I don't
think there was a "point" to the ice, the figure, or the sound in the cave
beyond providing a certain sort of atmosphere.  I still think the figures 
in white were somehow responsible for your arrival into this whole shadows
business, but then there's no explanation for the dome.

[..]
>Did you look in the moat?  The nasty metal bits down there looked a
>bit too functional for the place to be purely recreational.  Someone
>put that wall up for a reason, too.  (Curiosity: how was that gate
>supposed to be opened, back when everything worked?  I didn't notice
>any machinery to move the ropes.)
No, the gate doesn't appear as though it would really "work" as such, even
when it was in working condition.

[..]
>                    - Damien
--
dan shiovitz scythe@u.washington.edu shiov@cs.washington.edu
slightly lost author/programmer in a world of more creative or more sensible
people ... remember to speak up for freedom because no one else will do it
for you: use it or lose it ... carpe diem -- be proactive.
my web site: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~scythe/home.html some ok stuff.





From edaniel@ee.tamu.edu Sun Jul 14 20:33:15 MET DST 1996
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From: edaniel@ee.tamu.edu (Eric Daniel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar - Finished
Date: 10 Jul 1996 04:40:47 GMT
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In-reply-to: scythe@u.washington.edu's message of 10 Jul 1996 00:09:35 GMT

Spoilers -- do not read if you haven't finished the game



















>>>>> "DS" == Dan Shiovitz <scythe@u.washington.edu> writes:

 DS> Ok.. let's see.  IMO, the "point" of the game was for your character to
 DS> rejoin two people.  I don't know if these were actual people, or
 DS> archetypes of people that you and Aessa and Rito and Imita play out.
 DS> You see the woman first, as the glowing spinning sphere in (somewhere),
 DS> and then the man in the desert/cage area.  Then, I think, it's a process
 DS> of bringing one of the pair along with you, it changing as you enter
 DS> each new world, until finally you unite it with the ring of light and
 DS> the breach is healed.  Apparently, yes, Andrew does lots of unsolvable

But, if you unite them, you lose (I don't think that being loose and undone
along with everything else is a winning situation). To get the winning
sequence, you need to keep them separated. I think. I'm not quite sure of the
meaning of `how can I forgive you? there is nothing to forgive'.

Observe also that the only difference with the winning situation and the `you
go home' ending (in the prologue) is that at the end, you stop thinking about
Aessa:

   Someone is standing there, a few paces ahead, rapt in the sky. Curve of
   chin. Long hair, black in the moonslight.

Besides this, the world is still there and unchanged. That might explain the
subtitle too (an interactive catharsis) . It's a game you want to play when
you have broken up with your girlfriend :-)

All this being said, what to do with Rito and Imita giving us the `wrong'
answer?


Finally:

  Although there is, of course, no real score in this game, it is possible to
  get one point. I'll be impressed if anyone does it, even with a story-file
  text dumper.

Where can I find a text dumper ??


Eric Daniel


From scythe@u.washington.edu Sun Jul 14 20:33:37 MET DST 1996
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From: scythe@u.washington.edu (Dan Shiovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar - Finished
Date: 10 Jul 1996 05:45:20 GMT
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In article <EDANIEL.96Jul9234047@ee.tamu.edu>,
Eric Daniel <edaniel@ee.tamu.edu> wrote:
>Spoilers -- do not read if you haven't finished the game

>>>>>> "DS" == Dan Shiovitz <scythe@u.washington.edu> writes:
>
> DS> Ok.. let's see.  IMO, the "point" of the game was for your character to
> DS> rejoin two people.  I don't know if these were actual people, or
[..]
> DS> each new world, until finally you unite it with the ring of light and
[..]
>But, if you unite them, you lose (I don't think that being loose and undone
>along with everything else is a winning situation). To get the winning
>sequence, you need to keep them separated. I think. I'm not quite sure of the
>meaning of `how can I forgive you? there is nothing to forgive'.

Maybe, yeah.  As you point out later, the "losing" dialogue at the end is
the same as the dialogue at the end of the play in the beginning.  Which
is odd.  Also, hmm... The *cube* may well get united with the ring of light
in the good ending, even though the ring of darkness is not.  Possibly you
could even say that the ring of darkness is the "bad guy," Tato, the ring of
light is Rito and the cube is Imita.  I dunno.  

>Observe also that the only difference with the winning situation and the `you
>go home' ending (in the prologue) is that at the end, you stop thinking about
>Aessa:
>
>   Someone is standing there, a few paces ahead, rapt in the sky. Curve of
>   chin. Long hair, black in the moonslight.

Now, wait.  I'm pretty sure that's Aessa being described.  Er... double 
wait.  Aessa has copper hair, doesn't she?  Which would mean this *isn't*
her.  Hmm.  I'll have to think about this.. good point.

>Besides this, the world is still there and unchanged. That might explain the
>subtitle too (an interactive catharsis) . It's a game you want to play when
>you have broken up with your girlfriend :-)

Maybe.  So perhaps Aessa chose Tato instead of Rito.

>Finally:
>
>  Although there is, of course, no real score in this game, it is possible to
>  get one point. I'll be impressed if anyone does it, even with a story-file
>  text dumper.
>
>Where can I find a text dumper ??
It's the ztools package, available in one of the infocom subdirectories on
gmd, I think.

>Eric Daniel
--
dan shiovitz scythe@u.washington.edu shiov@cs.washington.edu
slightly lost author/programmer in a world of more creative or more sensible
people ... remember to speak up for freedom because no one else will do it
for you: use it or lose it ... carpe diem -- be proactive.
my web site: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~scythe/home.html some ok stuff.





From giner@xp.psych.nyu.edu Sun Jul 14 20:34:16 MET DST 1996
Article: 15614 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Roger Giner-Sorolla <giner@xp.psych.nyu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar - Finished
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:03:47 -0400
Organization: New York University
Lines: 19
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On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Russell L. Bryan wrote:

> I'll have to take a closer look at the game to see if I can form some of 
> these connections, but the cynic in me has to consider the possibility 
> that none of it means anything.  In the words of Homer Simpson, "It was 
> all just a bunch of stuff that happened."

Well, I think there can be a middle ground between trying to literally fit
a coherent meaning to the scenes of the game, and calling it meaningless. 
In fact that's one of So Far's strengths -- the ability, through
tantalizingly incomplete parallels between inscrutable places and objects,
to *suggest* a world of greater meaning, without necessarily hiding The True 
Story inside the game as if it were an Easter egg. 
 
Roger Giner-Sorolla              New York University, New York, NY
giner@xp.psych.nyu.edu           Dept. of Psychology (Social/Personality)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         This scholar, rake, Christian, dupe, gamester, and poet.
                  David Garrick, "Jupiter and Mercury" 


From erkyrath+@CMU.EDU Sun Jul 14 20:34:40 MET DST 1996
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From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar - Finished
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:55:35 -0400
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"Russell L. Bryan" <russbryan@earthlink.net> writes:
> I'll have to take a closer look at the game to see if I can form some of 
> these connections, but the cynic in me has to consider the possibility 
> that none of it means anything.  In the words of Homer Simpson, "It was 
> all just a bunch of stuff that happened."
> 
> If there are meanings to be uncovered, they are going to be personal to 
> each individual who plays the game.  Unless Andrew writes us a message 
> "So Far: The Author's Interpretation," any interpretation is going to be 
> colored by our own experience with the game, and none of us can ever be 
> proven "right."  As this is the essence of literary criticism, we're 
> looking at a month or two of sparkling dialogue.

Of course, I'm never going to post such a message. The whole point
(er, meta-point, I mean) of _So Far_ is to demonstrate that IF *can*
be subject to literary criticism. I've been ecstatic at the things
people have been posting in the past couple of days. I want to jump up
and down and shout "SEE? SEE? IT CAN BE DONE! IT CAN WORK! IT... IS...
ALIVE!" 

If I posted my interpretation (or lack thereof), that would kill it.
Everybody would stop reacting to the work. You'd stop posting about
your ideas about _So Far_, and start talking about my ideas. Feh on
that.

So:

> none of us can ever be proven "right."

Absolutely. But if you let that stop you from looking, I'm gonna come
break your kneecaps. Ok?

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."


From auerbach@minerva.cis.yale.edu Sun Jul 14 20:35:20 MET DST 1996
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From: auerbach@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Lethargarian)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar - Finished
Date: 7 Jul 1996 06:57:27 GMT
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Spoilers -- do not read if you haven't finished the game


















 
Matthew T. Russotto (russotto@wanda.phl.pond.com) wrote: 

: This game was noteable, I think, for the sheer number of useless
: objects and/or red herrings.

Most had some vague symbolic value, though some did seem just plain
useless. If they were supposed to represent something, as say, it
seemed the key did, there seemed to be a splitting between the
symbolism and the puzzle-value...that is, if an object was both
symbolic and useful (the animals, the pods), the use didn't seem to
coincide with its symbol role, but was just a puzzle-solution. The big
exception to this, the pillar/gate puzzle, was wonderfully done.

: 3) The crack by the door.  I'd say the door itself, but I suspect that
: had to do with the story.  It certainly seemed to fit the theme.

There are other cracks in the story...

: 5) The brick.  Seemed like a deliberate diversion to me.

Perhaps a reference to a very old joke about a brick and a dead dog...

: 11) The key.  There's got to be a story behind it, right?

The fact that it no longer fits the box and once did sounds like a lot
of the rest of the story, though the details of it don't seem to link
to anything in particular.

: 0) What were we doing?  Who made those shadows, and the various weird
: sculptures that cast some of them?  And where are we?

: 1) The civilization that made the chimney, the gate, the dome, the
: mounds, and the castle.  Who were they?  That weird magenta lichen must
: have evolved since they disappeared, sealing the hatch for the last time.

I got the feeling that we're in some sort of psych-y war zone, so I'm
not sure how much of it is literal/explainable. 

: 5) The two bright spots caught in metal.  What are they?  

Lots of other two closebutnottouching things in the game, most notably
at the very end/beginning (the two moons--any thoughts on where the
names come from?). Probably a variant on that.

: 7) And what about the place with the small sun and the roofless cell.
: The game indicates we may be able to slip through the bars, but won't
: actually accept any commands to do so.

There is a command ("squeeze through bars"?) that will let you slip through.
But...

One thing I'm still unclear on is the actors in the back. Were we
supposed to know who they were? Was Aessa among them? Were we
more/less involved with the play than it seemed? Most importantly,
were we the cuckold or the cuckolder? I assumed the former from most
of the game, but from some of the shadow pictures I feel as though it
could go the other way.

Well, that leaves a lot of unanswered questions. Anyone want to help
me out here with this interactive Bergman film? I'm really curious to
hear people's thoughts about the meaning of some of this stuff...



From lpsmith@rice.edu Sun Jul 14 20:36:01 MET DST 1996
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From: lpsmith@rice.edu (Lucian Paul Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar - Finished
Date: 12 Jul 1996 20:08:52 GMT
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Lethargarian (auerbach@minerva.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
: Spoilers
















: I had forgotten that Aessa's hair was copper, so indeed she is NOT the
: brown-haired girl at the end of the story (that's good, I
: think). Perhaps you've wiped her out of your mind, finally, and are
: ready to start anew with a healthier relationship.

I disagree.  The text was 'black in the moonslight'.  Moonslight always 
looks blue to me, and red things in blue light look black.  And why would 
it be satisfying if it was some random female we hadn't even met?  
Aessa's ghost seemed to haunt the entire story; if he just dumped her at 
the end that wouldn't be satisfying to me at all.  As I said elsewhere, I 
think the point was that the complete union one dreams about in a 
romantic relationship is unhealthy at best, disastrous at worst.  The 
relationship could indeed grow and prosper, but only with the right 
attitude:  the realization that there will always be tension and distance 
in a relationship, no matter how close the two of you get:  so close, and 
yet so far.

: One thing that I haven't seen addressed is the meshing of the puzzles
: with the psychological stuff. It struck me as a bit odd that in the
: midst of a catharsis you should suddenly have to fix up a pulley
: system to open a gate, or chase after a quasi-dinosaur on another
: one. You could say that this represents a symbolic overcoming of
: whatever troubles your character is having, but  since we're uncertain
: of those, it reduces the symbols to merely being formally manipulated,
: with no idea of the meaning. Moreover, I think to deal with such
: symbols as the basic level is inherently problematic, since you aren't
: resolving a "problem," you're resolving a symbolic analogue of
: it. Unfortunately, I don't see a way around this problem, and I think
: the game did the best it could with it.

I think the metaphors work most strongly exactly be being manipulated.  I 
enumerated them in my other post, but the 'winning state' for many of the 
puzzles was to manipulate them into a 'so close and yet so far' state; 
either moving objects away from an initial union, or towards each other, 
until they almost, but not quite, touched.  There are exceptions, of course.

: Of course, that still leaves the very beginning of the game, and
: exactly who's shouting at who...

What did you mean by this?  I lost you here.

: d

-Lucian "Lucian" Smith



From scythe@u.washington.edu Sun Jul 14 20:49:22 MET DST 1996
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From: scythe@u.washington.edu (Dan Shiovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: So Far: stuck at several points
Date: 8 Jul 1996 05:02:39 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
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In article <4rpohg$jer@copland.udel.edu>,
Jon Conrad <conrad@copland.udel.edu> wrote:
>I'm enjoying SO FAR enormously, and have to my pleasure gotten
>considerably further in the last few days.  Now I'm finding myself
>stymied by the sheer multiplicity of branches, and I seem to be missing
>some possibilities.  So here are a few separate issues.
>
>SPOILERS

>Is is important to lick the cold pole?  I finally decided I should, and
>used the ceramic square warming it up to get loose, and so what?
So you used the square in the wrong place.  This is bad.  The pole is
for amusement only, far as I can tell.

>Related to the above: Is there a way to get a more permanent source of
>fire?  I thought that with a jar and oil and a sparkstarter, I could
>make a kind of oil lamp, but it just blew up.  And I'm sure not getting
>the point of the leak from the jar just above the smudge.  It stains my
>finger and seems to be soot or something, but I can't picture why clay
>would leak in this particular way.
Yes, you've got the correct idea.  The jar is *built* to leak.  The leak
creates a trickle.  It's a bad idea to stick the flame into the jar of oil,
because that catches *all* the oil on fire.

>Is having a light source also a key to the darkness?  All I do is wander
>around and go nuts.  I can sometimes take things, but it doesn't help.
It's a key to *a* darkness, but not this particular one.  
Yes, it does help to take things.  There's three takable things.  Listen
carefully.

>People have mentioned a blue scrap and a key.  Where did I miss those?
I don't know where the first one is.  The second is in the ice area.

>Is the park good for anything besides a shadow?  Can I go back to the
>city?  Can I do anything with the sculpture other than make music?  (I
>was trying to cut the wires, actually.)
Not as far as I know.

>Well, those will do for now.  Thanks to all who help.
>
>Jon Alan Conrad
>conrad@udel.edu
--
dan shiovitz scythe@u.washington.edu shiov@cs.washington.edu
slightly lost author/programmer in a world of more creative or more sensible
people ... remember to speak up for freedom because no one else will do it
for you: use it or lose it ... carpe diem -- be proactive.
my web site: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~scythe/home.html some ok stuff.





From auerbach@minerva.cis.yale.edu Sun Jul 14 20:50:43 MET DST 1996
Article: 15561 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: auerbach@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Lethargarian)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar: help me in Somewhere and Metal?
Date: 10 Jul 1996 04:47:34 GMT
Organization: Yale University
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <4rvcl6$mhu@news.ycc.yale.edu>
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Matthew T. Russotto (russotto@wanda.phl.pond.com) wrote:
: In article <4rucm6$a5i@news.ycc.yale.edu>,
: Lethargarian <auerbach@minerva.cis.yale.edu> wrote:
: }Spoilers et al.
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }
: }If you've hit the spots of light and the boy, you've gotten pretty far and
: }probably have a good idea of what's going on. 

: Really?  I finished the game and still don't have a good idea of
: what's going on.  I'd say Andrew reconciled with his girlfriend but
: then how would he have time to write SoFar?

Well, I meant what was going on with the pipes, not with the game in
general. Although given the subtitle ("Interactive _Catharsis_") and
the generally pained tone of the game, I don't think that whatever
inspired it had a particularly happy ending.

(All those who haven't finished the game, stop right now. Am about to
get into gruesome detail about the ending.)

Okay, well, let's compare the two endings. The "loosed and undone"
ending (which I presumptuously call the BAD ending) has the black and
white circles joining together, your ceasing to exist, and the line

"How can I deny you? There is nothing to forgive."

The "you have won" ending (which I think is GOOD) has the circles
separating completely and the line

"How can I ever forgive you? There is nothing to forgive."

followed by the two moons nearly coming together and parting, but not
touching (presumably, if they touched, it would bring about a
cataclysm that would wipe out your world). So if the circles are you
and Aessa, presumably you got away from her just in the nick of time
(you two were incompatible, apparently). Given the amazing amount of
structures in the game containing parts that come close but never
touch (statue next to river, tensegrity bridge, two blobs of light,
key and box), it seems like the relationship was already hanging in
the balance...

But now it seems as if you've never met her. And you're just about to?
Or else you've wiped all trace of her from your mind and are moving
onto someone else.

My guess is that the first statement is forgiveness and disastrous
reconciliation. The second is rejection, anger, and denial. And I
suppose that the second is the preferable one. Or at least someone
would like to think so. 

Well, that's all the thoughts I have for now. The ending was
definitely more the "Trinity" sort of "Aw, shucks" than the "Zork"
sort of "I'm so neat!" But that's life.

d


From boutel1g@wcc.govt.nz Sun Jul 14 20:51:15 MET DST 1996
Article: 15625 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: boutel1g@wcc.govt.nz (Giles Boutel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar: help me in Somewhere and Metal?
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:12:07 GMT
Organization: WCC
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Message-ID: <4s9lab$91o@totara.its.vuw.ac.nz>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

auerbach@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Lethargarian) wrote:

>Well, I meant what was going on with the pipes, not with the game in
>general. Although given the subtitle ("Interactive _Catharsis_") and
>the generally pained tone of the game, I don't think that whatever
>inspired it had a particularly happy ending.

>(All those who haven't finished the game, stop right now. Am about to
>get into gruesome detail about the ending.)

>Okay, well, let's compare the two endings. The "loosed and undone"
>ending (which I presumptuously call the BAD ending) has the black and
>white circles joining together, your ceasing to exist, and the line

>"How can I deny you? There is nothing to forgive."

Notice also that this was the line used in the reconciliation excerpt
from the play. There everything ended in true fairy-tale,
happy-ever-after fashion. A similar end-quote in the game destroys
everything. hmmm 

As for the Interactive Catharsis sub-title, if dramatic catharsis is a
way of cleansing emotional 'valves' via vicarious experience (my
definition, shoot it down if you feel like it), then perhaps the good
ending achieves its virtue by being _different_ from the play's
response. This would indicate that the problems raised by the play
(infidelity, loss of trust) have been surmounted - the catharsis has
been succesful, and a real life, along a necessarily different path,
can proceed, unencumbered by the tensions created/resolved by the
drama. At the expense of the fairy-tale union.


>The "you have won" ending (which I think is GOOD) has the circles
>separating completely and the line

>"How can I ever forgive you? There is nothing to forgive."

Notice how with this ending the action of forgiveness is in the hands
of the forgiver. In the previous line, forgiveness was not a choice,
denial of the other's will was an impossibility - so your own will
became lesser. Here, then, even though no action is taken, the right
to act and to decide to act is preserved. Life can continue. You have
won...Yourself.

Oh, well, works for me :) I had to think about it a lot, and had two
games running concurrently for a while - trying different things and
comparing circle scenes, which is the first time I've ever dived back
into a game immediately after finishing it.

BTW - The sphere with the woman in it is described as circling every
three heartbeats - I was sure something else had this as a
description, but can't remember what, or indeed if I just read it
twice and thought I'd read it before - anybody remember that phrase
from anywhere else? Who knows - it could be important :) 


-Tangle




From erkyrath+@CMU.EDU Sun Jul 21 20:10:05 MET DST 1996
Article: 15702 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Sofar-DUH-Help me!
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:46:24 -0400
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <8lvZlEq00WB4QUzf9i@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <4s5c6q$rji@duck.inetnebr.com> <837179927.15702.0@sales24.sales.demon.net> <jota.837284934@laraby.tiac.net> <837431273.251.0@sales2.sales.demon.net> <kftohlh9hru.fsf@ee.tamu.edu> <837511003.8259.0@sales9.sales.demon.net> <kftlogih9xc.fsf@ee.tamu.edu>
	<837680449.15766.0@sales9.sales.demon.net>
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In-Reply-To: <837680449.15766.0@sales9.sales.demon.net>

> >> spoil, spoil, spoil, spoil, spoil, spoil, spoil, spoil, spoil, spoil....
> >> 











> are those neodinosaurs warm-blooded or cold? I haven't read _The New
> Dinosaurs_. Zarf?

The critters described in _The New Dinosaurs_ are warm-blooded. Note
that Dougal Dixon is basing his ideas on the (well-accepted) theory
that real dinosaurs were warm-blooded, too.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."


From auerbach@minerva.cis.yale.edu Sun Jul 21 20:10:56 MET DST 1996
Article: 15647 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: auerbach@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Lethargarian)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar - Finished
Date: 15 Jul 1996 00:53:53 GMT
Organization: Yale University
Lines: 97
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References: <4s6bck$o0n@listserv.rice.edu>
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Lucian Paul Smith (lpsmith@rice.edu) wrote:
: : Spoilers
















: I disagree.  The text was 'black in the moonslight'.  Moonslight always 
: looks blue to me, and red things in blue light look black.  And why would 
: it be satisfying if it was some random female we hadn't even met?  
: Aessa's ghost seemed to haunt the entire story; if he just dumped her at 
: the end that wouldn't be satisfying to me at all.  As I said elsewhere, I 
: think the point was that the complete union one dreams about in a 
: romantic relationship is unhealthy at best, disastrous at worst.  The 
: relationship could indeed grow and prosper, but only with the right 
: attitude:  the realization that there will always be tension and distance 
: in a relationship, no matter how close the two of you get:  so close, and 
: yet so far.

I think that's fair--my initial impression was that it was
Aessa. Still, the color change is, at the least, misleading. But if
that's the case, you're left with a very Trinity-like situation, where
things seem to have reverted back to an earlier point (it seems at the
end that you have no idea who Aessa is) with no definite evidence that
things will go any better this time around. As well as the fact that
the two circles literally fly apart at the end of the story. True,
this could be just a "going back in time to start over again" device,
but I saw it as less auspicious. It doesn't seem that you establish
any sort of precarious balance at the end, but instead just forget, go
back, and try again. This is not very 'cathartic.' I think that it
would be more satisfying if the business were Aessa was indeed over
and done with, so that through the story/catharsis you have purged her
from your mind and enabled yourself to get on with it. Not that I
espouse that approach, but it seems more realistic than the "one more
chance" option. Even if your character forgets about Aessa, the player
sure hasn't, which places a pretty big block between them.

: : One thing that I haven't seen addressed is the meshing of the puzzles
: : with the psychological stuff. It struck me as a bit odd that in the
: : midst of a catharsis you should suddenly have to fix up a pulley
: : system to open a gate, or chase after a quasi-dinosaur on another
: : one. You could say that this represents a symbolic overcoming of
: : whatever troubles your character is having, but  since we're uncertain
: : of those, it reduces the symbols to merely being formally manipulated,
: : with no idea of the meaning. Moreover, I think to deal with such
: : symbols as the basic level is inherently problematic, since you aren't
: : resolving a "problem," you're resolving a symbolic analogue of
: : it. Unfortunately, I don't see a way around this problem, and I think
: : the game did the best it could with it.

: I think the metaphors work most strongly exactly be being manipulated.  I 
: enumerated them in my other post, but the 'winning state' for many of the 
: puzzles was to manipulate them into a 'so close and yet so far' state; 
: either moving objects away from an initial union, or towards each other, 
: until they almost, but not quite, touched.  There are exceptions, of course.

This is fair too, but I think my criticism still appies. If I push two
blocks together, well, perhaps I'm metaphorically solving the problem,
but the symbolism is that of my character and of the author, not of
me. If I read a book in which a character were to imagine the blocks,
I'd say to myself, "Oh, this represents the relationship." But if I'm
the character and I see the blocks, I'm not providing the
psychological environment for myself--the author is. When I push the
blocks together, I don't think, "Oh, this is the secret to a
relationship," but "Ah, I solved a puzzle!" More importantly, I don't
feel as though I'm solving any problem with the relationship, but only
a surreal puzzle. Later on, of course, I can explain it with some sort
of real-life correspondence, but I think it's inherently problematic
to make symbols of the player's life, because it separates the
character's mind from the player's mind and leaves me feeling
alienated from the character I'm playing. Maybe some people think more
symbolically than I do and have no problem with it (I don't read Perec
for the same reason), but I think not providing information ahead of
time puts a block between you and the character that hurts the
intended message.

: : Of course, that still leaves the very beginning of the game, and
: : exactly who's shouting at who...

: What did you mean by this?  I lost you here.

Well, i presumed it was the actors, but why? And to what significance?

d

"And if you get 100,000 points, Fidel Castro's nose lights up!"


From lpsmith@rice.edu Sun Jul 21 20:20:12 MET DST 1996
Article: 15645 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: lpsmith@rice.edu (Lucian Paul Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SoFar: help me in Somewhere and Metal?
Date: 15 Jul 1996 03:34:11 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4sce7j$k1a@listserv.rice.edu>
References: <31e08d6d.0@news.interline.net> <4rucm6$a5i@news.ycc.yale.edu> <4rui15$esd@wanda.phl.pond.com> <4rvcl6$mhu@news.ycc.yale.edu> <4s9lab$91o@totara.its.vuw.ac.nz>
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Giles Boutel (boutel1g@wcc.govt.nz) wrote:

: As for the Interactive Catharsis sub-title, if dramatic catharsis is a
: way of cleansing emotional 'valves' via vicarious experience (my
: definition, shoot it down if you feel like it), then perhaps the good
: ending achieves its virtue by being _different_ from the play's
: response. This would indicate that the problems raised by the play
: (infidelity, loss of trust) have been surmounted - the catharsis has
: been succesful, and a real life, along a necessarily different path,
: can proceed, unencumbered by the tensions created/resolved by the
: drama. At the expense of the fairy-tale union.

Interesting.  I think you're on to something here.

: BTW - The sphere with the woman in it is described as circling every
: three heartbeats - I was sure something else had this as a
: description, but can't remember what, or indeed if I just read it
: twice and thought I'd read it before - anybody remember that phrase
: from anywhere else? Who knows - it could be important :) 

I think that if you felt the luminescent lines in the metal area they 
were described as pulsing 'three times every heartbeat'--a very similar 
description, but the other way around.  I have no idea if this means 
anything.

: -Tangle

-Lucian "Lucian" Smith


From andrewb@sait465.news Sun Jul 21 20:22:02 MET DST 1996
Article: 15669 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!online.no!oslonett.no!sn.no!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.global-one.no!news1.transpac.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!esiee.fr!sgigate.sgi.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!morgan.com!usenet
From: andrewb@sait465.news (Andrew Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Masterpieces
Date: 16 Jul 1996 17:24:45 GMT
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Lines: 133
Message-ID: <ANDREWB.96Jul16132445@sait465.news>
References: <4SDJS7$36C@USENET.SRV.CIS.PITT.EDU> <31eab108.12879078@wvnvm.wvnet.edu>
	<31EB9130.3AA6@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sait465.morgan.com
In-reply-to: "Russell L. Bryan"'s message of Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:55:12 -0400

In article <31EB9130.3AA6@earthlink.net> "Russell L. Bryan" <russbryan@earthlink.net> writes:

> From: "Russell L. Bryan" <russbryan@earthlink.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:55:12 -0400
> Organization: Earthlink Network, Inc.
> Reply-To: russbryan@earthlink.net
> 
> balavage@vms.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
> 
> >> I am trying to find "Masterpieces" myself.
> 
> > So am I.  I even went so far as to call Activision to order it, but the
> > sales folks had never heard of it.  (They tried to sell me the "Whatever
> > Collection" instead...)
> > 
> > This doesn't help my native suspicion of Activision...
> 
> If you two who have gotten your hot little hands on the collection would 
> like to help those of us who don't have a Best Buy handy (Bonni should have 
> one locally, but the nearest Best Buy to Connecitcut is in Pennsylvania), I 
> would gladly pay a reasonable service fee if someone could get me a copy 
> NOW, just in case the test marketing doesn't work out in our favor.
> 
> -- Russ

I bought a copy a few days ago at J&R Music World in New York City. I
got mine at their retail store, but they have a mail order division as 
well. Try dialing 1-800 assistance and getting the number. 

My thoughts on the collection:

Good Things:
------------

- It's good to get all the games on one CD.

- The price is cheap (~$20).

- The packaging is relatively non-cheesy (unlike the "Collections"
  series.)

- The online documentation is quite comprehensive:
  - The handbook pages from LTOI and LTOI 2 are included
  - Hints for *all* games are included.
  - Maps are included for all games that have maps.
  - Supplementary materials seem to be complete.
  - There is a nice color scan of each box cover.
  - Some of the materials that were B&W in LTOI 1&2 have color scans
    here. (i.e. Paranoia Magazine, large map)

- The organization of the documentation is good. When you bring up the
  top-level document, you get a nice title page with small pictures of
  all the game covers. Clicking on the games brings up a page with a
  good color scan of the cover, and buttons to go to the manual,
  hints, or maps for that game.

- Interesting files are included from the Infocom e-mail
  archive. Some of the topics include ideas for new games, issues of
  the company newsletter, discussions about company strategy.

- Six(?) new adventures are included. I haven't had a chance to play
  any of them yet.

Bad Things:

- Although it's nice to have the docs online, they're hard to read if
  you don't print them out first. The maps and some of the other
  materials are so big they don't lend themselves to being viewed
  on-screen or printed on letter-sized paper.

- Activision could have done a better job of transferring the printed
  docs to Acrobat format. The manual pages are based on the LTOI
  manuals. It seems that some pages were completely scanned and some
  were re-typeset, with scans of any artwork. Some of the scans seem
  to be of poor quality, and some of the typesetting doesn't match the
  original very well. Examples are the Flathead calendar, and the
  Stellar Patrol ads. 

- No Hitchhiker's or Shogun. I know licensing issues prevented these
  from being included, but it's still too bad.

Overall, I think it's a good package for $20. I'm also happy that the
docs are least complete (hints, maps, cover scans) if not always top
quality. I am really glad however, that I already have printed maps
from my LTOI copies. Trying to print these from Acrobat just doesn't
cut it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
* My Idea for Super-Duper, Totally Impractical Infocom Collection: *
--------------------------------------------------------------------

- The packaging consists of a leather bound binder encased in a
slipcover of the normal cardboard sort.

- The leather binder has a pouch in the inside front cover containing
the CD.

- The inside of the binder consists of a series of light cardboard
envelopes bound into the volume. Each envelope has the original game
box artwork printed on it.

- Inside each envelope are:
  - Recreations of the original materials included with each game. If
    you look at the packaging list of the original games, most of the
    items are flat, so hopefully space wouldn't be a problem. Of
    course, it would be impossible to include things like the
    "Suspended" mask and the "Starcross" frisbee.
  - Any additional map(s) that came with the hint booklets.

- The disk contains:
  - The games (of course)
  - An on-line hint system for the games similar to the Infocom
    web-page. This presents the help in a heirarchical fashion,
    preventing accidental viewing of hints you don't want.
  - Infocom history.
  - Details of each game (release date, #of rooms, #of items, etc.)
  - Copies of all the issues of the New Zork Times and Status line
  - Archival material like that in Masterpieces
  - Copies of some the articles included on the Infocom web-page.

I know that the sales potential probably wouldn't justify the cost of  
recreating all the original game materials, but I'd pay $100 or so for
such a definitive collection.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Brown
Morgan Stanley Inc.
750 Seventh Ave.
New York, NY
----------------------------------------------------------------------
  
 


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Sun Jul 21 20:22:37 MET DST 1996
Article: 15723 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!uclink.berkeley.edu!whizzard
From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Masterpieces
Date: 19 Jul 1996 01:29:23 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4smodj$5gk@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <4SDJS7$36C@USENET.SRV.CIS.PITT.EDU> <31eab108.12879078@wvnvm.wvnet.edu> <31EB9130.3AA6@earthlink.net> <ANDREWB.96Jul16132445@sait465.news>
NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu

In article <ANDREWB.96Jul16132445@sait465.news>,
Andrew Brown <andrewb@sait465.news> wrote:
>Good Things:
>------------
>
>- Interesting files are included from the Infocom e-mail
>  archive. Some of the topics include ideas for new games, issues of
>  the company newsletter, discussions about company strategy.

I'll just point out that that's Infodope, the IN-HOUSE Infocom newsletter.
Never before seen.  There's only a little bit that survived, but it's kind
of cute.  I believe that one issue pokes fun at Activision, if I recall
correctly...but they've always been good sports, even when I poked fun at
them in my Guide to Authoring Text Adventures.  I hear it got passed
around a bit a few years ago.

>- Six(?) new adventures are included. I haven't had a chance to play
>  any of them yet.

The I-F Competition winners from last year.

>Bad Things:
>
>- Although it's nice to have the docs online, they're hard to read if
>  you don't print them out first. The maps and some of the other
>  materials are so big they don't lend themselves to being viewed
>  on-screen or printed on letter-sized paper.

Infocom liked making hard-to-photocopy materials in order to deter
pirates.  In this case, it made things hard to scan in right.

>- No Hitchhiker's or Shogun. I know licensing issues prevented these
>  from being included, but it's still too bad.

Of these two, I can't say that I miss either terribly.  Hitchhiker's is
renowned for its "Read Douglas Adams' mind" puzzles, and Shogun has never
been too highly recommended to me.  Still, maybe someday we'll see a final
Infocom collection with absolutely everything they put out.  (It would
have to be with scans again, but maybe we could get all the Status Lines
and everything on the CD.)

>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>* My Idea for Super-Duper, Totally Impractical Infocom Collection: *
>--------------------------------------------------------------------

[snip]

>I know that the sales potential probably wouldn't justify the cost of  
>recreating all the original game materials, but I'd pay $100 or so for
>such a definitive collection.

Now just talk 10,000 of your close friends into pre-ordering a copy, and
I'll see what I can do. ;)  Just send the money to me, yeah, that's the
ticket...

Anyways, happy Zorking.
-- 
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~>
<         Join in the 1996 Interactive Fiction Competition.         |  ~~\  >
< The Deadline is September 30, 1996.  Enter, judge, betatest or ?? | /~\ | >
<______________________________________whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu_|_\__/__>


From mlasky@interramp.com Sun Jul 21 20:23:12 MET DST 1996
Article: 15680 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!online.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!interramp.com!usenet
From: mlasky@interramp.com (Mitch Lasky)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Masterpieces
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:13:30 GMT
Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4si7mb$1bq@usenet11.interramp.com>
References: <4sdjs7$36c@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.14.43.8
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Ok -- here's the scoop on the Masterpieces title:

-- The disk first started shipping to retail stores a couple of weeks
ago.  Given the competition for shelf space these days and the
difficulty of selling text adventures, the retailers took relatively
small initial orders (it would make sense that Best Buy is carrying it
pretty deeply -- they're one of our best customers).

-- We should have a web page up in the next couple of days with a
description of the title and an 800 number for direct sales.  I
apologize to those of you who tried to buy it already -- our direct
sales line is maintained by a fullfulment house that lags a little
behind retail in getting the title set up for sale.  

-- You should also be able to order the title from stores on that list
that was snagged from the Activision web site and posted in this
thread.  We like selling through our 800 number because we make a
little more money, but I encourage ordering the title from retailers
because it keeps them in business and it might prompt the store to
reorder the title to have it in inventory for someone else.

-- We did a press release on the title about a week ago -- it should
be available on the Internet at game sites or incorporated into
reviews and news stories.  It includes information about the IF
contest and SPAG.  Whizzard told me it resulted in some increased
visibility for SPAG, which is good.

Thanks for all the support!

Mitch Lasky
Activision



From rjones@us.oracle.com Sun Jul 21 20:27:25 MET DST 1996
Article: 15711 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com!orion!rjones
From: "Roger B Jones Jr" <rjones@us.oracle.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Comments on 'Masterpieces' collection...
Date: 18 Jul 96 18:15:31 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation. Redwood Shores, CA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <rjones.837713731@orion>
NNTP-Posting-Host: orion.us.oracle.com
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #20

This past Monday, I picked up the Infocom "Classic Text Adventure
Masterpieces" collection at Media Play in Milpitas, CA, for $20.99.
Since this collection seems to be the biggest thing in IF in a while,
I decided to give a review.

Contents: One CD.  Includes DOS, Windows (3.1, NT, and 95), and Mac
versions.  If you can read a DOS CD and pull the data files, you
should be able to run the games on anything.  Manuals are in Acrobat
format, and come in four files: the "header" file, and files for
manuals, maps, and hints.  The Windows version comes with an installer
and an uninstaller, and runs the game in a DOS window.  The DOS (and,
therefore, the Windows) version appears to have gotten rid of the
dependency on ANSI.SYS, instead using NNANSI.COM.

Games: Every Infocom text adventure except Hitchhiker and Shogun.  On
the Mac, Planetfall and Leather Goddesses are the Solid Gold editions;
on the PC, however, there are no SG games so far as I could tell.  Six
of the games from the IF contest are included: A Change in the
Weather, Magic Toyshop, Mind Electric, The One That Got Away,
Toonesia, and Uncle Zebulon's Will; in the PC install, there is
nothing to differentiate them from the Infocom games, beside the fact
that they have no manuals in the PDF files.  (They are in a subfolder
on the Mac.)

Documentation: The Acrobat documents are a bit hard to read onscreen,
but seem quite usable when printed.  I do, however, have a few
complaints with the organization and content.  The maps provided, with
very few exceptions, are the ones found in LTOI1.  I was hoping to get
some of the maps for the LTOI2 games, but the only ones provided are
Trinity and Plundered Hearts (in the hints file, not the maps file).
The Stationfall blueprints, which are part of the documentation, are
also in the hints file.  The hints given for some of the games (Border
Zone, Nord and Bert, and Sherlock) are more walkthrough than hints,
but since all of these provide on-line hints, that's not a big issue.

It does look like all the relevant documentation was included; you
even get all three copies of the triplicate form from Bureaucracy.
The radio ad in Ballyhoo is included, as are the letters in Moonmist.
They're all in the maps file, but they're all there.

"The Very Lost Treasures of Infocom": This was, in many ways, the best
part of the disc.  Included are some text files from Infocom's old
computer, with some articles from the 'Infodope', the internal
newsletter, some ideas for games that never happened (or for games
that did!), and some random text files.  The highlight of this, at
least for me, is Stu Galley's "Implementor's Creed", the end line of
which I have borrowed for my .signature.  These articles give a view
into the company, an insider's view few have seen.  (And yes, there
are some less-than-complimentary comments about Activision in there.)

In short, I felt I got a good deal for my $21, even though I already
owned LTOI 1 and 2CD; the only game in Masterpieces I did not already
have a copy of was Leather Goddesses.  If you are missing either LTOI1
or LTOI2, my recommendation is: Buy this immediately upon seeing it in
a store.  If you have them both, then it's more of a judgement call;
is having LGOP (and Arthur and Journey, if you have LTOI2 on floppy)
and the Very Lost Treasures worth $20 or so?
--
Brad Jones (rjones@us.oracle.com), Oracle Toolkit Development Tools
In the unlikely event that Oracle has opinions, these aren't them.
"None of my goals are easy.  But all are worth hard work.  Let no one
doubt my dedication to my art."  - Stu Galley, 'The Implementor's Creed'


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Sun Jul 21 20:28:07 MET DST 1996
Article: 15734 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!mn6.swip.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!in2p3.fr!swidir.switch.ch!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!agate!uclink.berkeley.edu!whizzard
From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Comments on 'Masterpieces' collection...
Date: 19 Jul 1996 17:50:19 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <4sohsr$c1@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <rjones.837713731@orion>
NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu

In article <rjones.837713731@orion>,
Roger B Jones Jr <rjones@us.oracle.com> wrote:

>Games: Every Infocom text adventure except Hitchhiker and Shogun.  On
>the Mac, Planetfall and Leather Goddesses are the Solid Gold editions;
>on the PC, however, there are no SG games so far as I could tell.  Six
>of the games from the IF contest are included: A Change in the
>Weather, Magic Toyshop, Mind Electric, The One That Got Away,
>Toonesia, and Uncle Zebulon's Will; in the PC install, there is
>nothing to differentiate them from the Infocom games, beside the fact
>that they have no manuals in the PDF files.  (They are in a subfolder
>on the Mac.)

Yeah, it's a bummer, but Activision doesn't actually HAVE any SG versions
in their archives.  I asked about it when I was there.  Their infocom
collection is probably less complete than mine, even if I DID get to see a
Fooblitzky manual for the first time.  As for the contest winners, I'm
kind of sad that there's nothing to seperate them out, but at the same
time it's a kind of compliment to the authors. :)

>Documentation: The Acrobat documents are a bit hard to read onscreen,
>but seem quite usable when printed.  I do, however, have a few
>complaints with the organization and content.  The maps provided, with
>very few exceptions, are the ones found in LTOI1.  I was hoping to get
>some of the maps for the LTOI2 games, but the only ones provided are
>Trinity and Plundered Hearts (in the hints file, not the maps file).
>The Stationfall blueprints, which are part of the documentation, are
>also in the hints file.  The hints given for some of the games (Border
>Zone, Nord and Bert, and Sherlock) are more walkthrough than hints,
>but since all of these provide on-line hints, that's not a big issue.

Again, that's because they don't have copies of the maps, or at least
couldn't find them in time.  The trinity map they used was one I loaned
them, as well as the LGOP map.  I don't own any others, so couldn't help
there.  And lastly, about the Stationfall docs, I must have missed that
one.  I'm not familiar with Stationfall too much and forgot that the maps
were included with the game there.

>It does look like all the relevant documentation was included; you
>even get all three copies of the triplicate form from Bureaucracy.
>The radio ad in Ballyhoo is included, as are the letters in Moonmist.
>They're all in the maps file, but they're all there.

Well, thank god.  Glad I was able to fix those holdovers from LTOI,
anyways.

>"The Very Lost Treasures of Infocom": This was, in many ways, the best
>part of the disc.  Included are some text files from Infocom's old
>computer, with some articles from the 'Infodope', the internal
>newsletter, some ideas for games that never happened (or for games
>that did!), and some random text files.  The highlight of this, at
>least for me, is Stu Galley's "Implementor's Creed", the end line of
>which I have borrowed for my .signature.  These articles give a view
>into the company, an insider's view few have seen.  (And yes, there
>are some less-than-complimentary comments about Activision in there.)

Yeah, I really liked getting to go through their email archives.  Kid in
the candy store, doncha know?  There was a whole lot of stuff too private
to put in there.  Lots of temper tantrums, that sort of thing.  But
towards the end, when employees started leaving, that was probably the
hardest for me to read.  Kind of like watching your hero succumb to a
disease, or old age.  I barely got through that part, and I definitely
didn't suggest it get published.  Far too personal for the people
involved.  I felt like a peeping tom reading the emails, but I felt that
if I didn't do it, somebody who didn't really understand Infocom as well
would.  Besides, who wouldn't jump at the opportunity?

	[By the way, I thought the Implementor's Creed was the coolest
thing in there as well, though the unreleased game ideas come close.  I
have a printout on my wall of the Creed.]

>"None of my goals are easy.  But all are worth hard work.  Let no one
>doubt my dedication to my art."  - Stu Galley, 'The Implementor's Creed'

"I create fictional worlds.  I create experiences.

 I am exploring a new medium for telling stories." - Likewise.
-- 
<~~~VERTIGO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~SPAG~~~~NINTH~ISSUE~DUE~REAL~SOON~NOW~~~~~|~~~~~~~>
<  The Society for the Preservation of Adventure games.  Filled with |  ~~\  >
<  reviews, ratings, and advertisements...all about text adventures. | /~\ | >
<___SOFTWARE______E-MAIL_FOR_INFO______whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu__|_\__/__>


From mmartin@seanet.com Sun Jul 21 21:50:29 MET DST 1996
Article: 15739 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.seanet.com!usenet
From: "Michael C. Martin" <mmartin@seanet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Masterpieces Direct Sales
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 12:43:17 -0700
Organization: Seanet Online Services, Seattle WA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <31F136D5.67E7@seanet.com>
References: <4sn80o$gca@usenet11.interramp.com>
Reply-To: mmartin@seanet.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: c4.dialup.seanet.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5aGold (Win95; I)

Mitch Lasky wrote:
> 
> As of 7/18, the Infocom Masterpieces collection is available from
> Activision's direct sales line: (800) 477-3650.
> 
> Just in case, I'm posting the inventory numbers to help make sure the
> operators sell the correct disk.
> 
> Item ID:      0300Y2 CDD-3640
                    ^^
                 Tip of the hat to Colossal Cave, or just a coincidence?

Mike


From erkyrath+@CMU.EDU Tue Jul 30 09:37:53 CED 1996
Article: 15993 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!swidir.switch.ch!swsbe6.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!CTCnet!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ap1i+
From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Rating systems
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 21:41:46 -0400
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <0lzKVOS00WB4Eds4VE@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <4stm9p$h68@news.ccit.arizona.edu>  <ant2118010b070RF@arnod.demon.co.uk>
	<4tj5gm$2bb@service3.uky.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po2.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <4tj5gm$2bb@service3.uky.edu>

durall@ewl.uky.edu (Bryan Durall) writes:
> Andrew C. Plotkin(erkyrath+@CMU.EDU) wrote:
> (deletia)
> > 
> > Here's my notes on this subject:
> > 
> > Merciful: cannot get stuck 
> > Polite: can get stuck or die, but it's
> >    immediately obvious that you're stuck or dead
> > Tough: can get stuck, but it's
> >    immediately obvious that you're about to do something irrevocable
> > Nasty: can get stuck, but when you do something irrevocable, it's
> >    clear 
> > Cruel: can get stuck by doing something which isn't obviously
> >    irrevocable (even after the act)
> > 
> 
> Is this rating completely fair?  By this logic, _Enchanter_ is cruel.

That's certainly how I would rate it.

Remember, *this system does not measure difficulty.* It measures a
different, and hopefully more objective, quality -- how much saving
and undo-ing is necessary to finish a game.

(Not totally objective, because we can disagree about what is
"obviously" irrevocable. Some people may think it sensible to save
before walking into the big black temple full of evil chanting; others
may be shocked when they get killed inside.)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 30 14:36:12 CED 1996
Article: 15880 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!mn6.swip.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!uclink.berkeley.edu!whizzard
From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WTB: Stationfall
Date: 25 Jul 1996 17:22:28 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <4t8agk$3np@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <31F508A1.7860@activision.com> <4t84ld$8bg@tom.amherst.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu

In article <4t84ld$8bg@tom.amherst.edu>,
an unearthly child <adcarnev@unix.amherst.edu> wrote:
>Michael Ward (mward@activision.com) wrote:
>: Activision is looking to buy original Stationfall packaging. Must be 
>: original Infocom packaging and contain all original materials 
>: including the spacestation blueprints, forms, and Stellar Patrol 
>: patch. Prefer PC disks but will accept any platform provided all 
>: original materials are intact.
>
>: Will pay $35 (shipping included).
>
>Cheez! If you *have* original Stationfall packaging, you probably *paid*
>about $35 for it, especially when inflation is taken into account. And
>Activision's offering $35 including *SHIPPING*? Now, if it was just to
>borrow, maybe this would be an offer someone would accept. But I doubt
>anyone who is into IF enough to know where their original Stationfall
>box is will want to part with it for that price.
>
>-kiddo


Give me a break.  I suggested that Michael offer $35, as that is almost 2x
the going rate for most Infocom games.  It's only a grey box game, and I
often see them for $15-20.  Just because it's a company posting doesn't
mean they should have to pay more than you or I for a game.  If I had
posted a similar WTB message and offered $35, nobody would have
complained.  Having been reading this newsgroup for about 3 years now, I
think I MIGHT just have a clue about the going price for Infocom games,
especially considering that I have bought many of the games in my own
collection here.

Now, Activision just wants to make the new Planetfall as good as they can.
I sent them a shiny new in-shrinkwrap folio version of the original
Planetfall for cost, $20.  THAT was a collector's item.  But I want the
new Planetfall team to understand the intentions and the 'spirit' of the
old Planetfall, so they can at least go in with their eyes open.

[begin tirade]

It seems silly to me to continue to lavish insult and complaints on a
company that is doing its very best to mend its bridges.  For the first
time in quite awhile, we've seen a commercial company pay $$ for text
adventures.  They are supporting the I-F Competition.  They are doing
their damnedest to get us up-to-date information on the Masterpieces
Collection.  Mitch Lasky has other work to do as well, I hope you guys
realize.  He's not a net.rep. 

I used to despise Activision.  There are probably still jokes about them
in my Authorship Guide.  But that was when they gave us damn good reasons
to hate them.  Poor handling of LTOI, Return to Zork (bleah!), LGOP2
(Aiii!!).  I thought Zork: Nemesis was a far cry from RtZ, even if it
didn't stretch across the ages to resurrect the feel of Zork.  I would
like to remind everyone that personnel does change at large companies.
The crew we deal with now is different from the folks we dealt with a few
years ago.

[winding down]

This obviously isn't all directed at you, kiddo.  I'm just upset at you
for deriding a perfectly reasonable offer that is being made for good
reasons.  There's been a lot of bad blood on here lately, and very little
of it has been justified.  I would like to see us r.g.i-fers take a
collective count to 10 and just chill out.  Mitch Lasky is a very nice
guy.  Michael Ward is a polite, funny man.  Neither of them deserve to
have to deal with cutting remarks, biting sarcasm, or even nibbling irony.
Remember that you aren't talking to a company, you are directing comments
at people who enjoy text adventures, just like us.  Michael's response
upon receiving the Planetfall I sent him was sheer excitement about how
cool it was, and about how it was giving them all sorts of ideas for the
new Planetfall.  That does not sound like the Satan-worshipping Activision
employees we've started to imagine around every corner.

[end tirade, begin weary remark]

Bah.  Enough tirades.  I'm just weary of the whole mess.  I just hope that
if I ever get a job at Activision and write the next Zork that you'll all
treat me with a little more common decency than you have these fellows.

[end weary remark]
-- 
<~~~VERTIGO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~SPAG~~~~TENTH~ISSUE~DUE~REAL~SOON~NOW~~~~~|~~~~~~~>
<  The Society for the Preservation of Adventure games.  Filled with |  ~~\  >
<  reviews, ratings, and advertisements...all about text adventures. | /~\ | >
<___SOFTWARE______E-MAIL_FOR_INFO______whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu__|_\__/__>


From werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at Tue Jul 30 14:36:31 CED 1996
Article: 15882 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!mn6.swip.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!in2p3.fr!swidir.switch.ch!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!03-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!alijku02!news
From: werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at (Werner Punz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WTB: Stationfall
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 20:10:05 GMT
Organization: Johannes Kepler University Linz
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <31f7d308.1552457@news.uni-linz.ac.at>
References: <31F508A1.7860@activision.com> <4t84ld$8bg@tom.amherst.edu> <4t8agk$3np@agate.berkeley.edu>
Reply-To: werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip11.edvz.uni-linz.ac.at
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227

whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson) wrote:

>It seems silly to me to continue to lavish insult and complaints on a
>company that is doing its very best to mend its bridges.  For the first
>time in quite awhile, we've seen a commercial company pay $$ for text
>adventures.  They are supporting the I-F Competition.  They are doing
>their damnedest to get us up-to-date information on the Masterpieces
>Collection.  Mitch Lasky has other work to do as well, I hope you guys
>realize.  He's not a net.rep. 

Snip

Not many game companies have people who constantly scan newsgroups 
for new ideas and user feedback. I think Activision is doing a great
job and I bought many of their recent games and I liked every one of
them. Activision is the wrong company to bash at. 

Werner

werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at
http://witiko.ifs.uni-linz.ac.at/~werpu

----------------------------------------------
Lets face the truth.Again you're stuck in the
ususal information highway rush hour traffic 
jam. 


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 30 14:36:48 CED 1996
Article: 15858 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!uclink.berkeley.edu!whizzard
From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WTB: Stationfall
Date: 25 Jul 1996 23:08:11 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4t8uor$ciu@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <31F508A1.7860@activision.com> <4t8agk$3np@agate.berkeley.edu> <31f7d308.1552457@news.uni-linz.ac.at> <4t8sov$o6e@joker.rz.hu-berlin.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu

In article <4t8sov$o6e@joker.rz.hu-berlin.de>,
Paul David Doherty <h0142kdd@joker.rz.hu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
>I think the problem (at least for some people around here) is that
>Activision killed Infocom. It wasn't Cornerstone, it wasn't Shogun
>or Journey, it was Activision that killed them off. And that's
>something some of us have great problems to forgive and forget...
>
>-- Dave

Actually, Activision just BOUGHT Infocom, when Infocom was in flagging
financial health due to overinvesting in Cornerstone.  Activision had
different goals for Infocom to meet, and very little of their original
talent was left.  Infocom was cutting back its employees long before the
buyout.  They were down to, I believe, 11 employees out of over 30.  Only
2-3 stayed on after the buyout.  2/3rds were gone before Activision ever
came onto the scene.

Besides that, I really doubt that either Mitch Lasky or Michael Ward took
part in the buyout, which was a big part of my original post, (i.e. don't
blame employees for past corporate mistakes, as they probably weren't even
around.)


-- 
 


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 30 14:37:01 CED 1996
Article: 15884 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!uclink.berkeley.edu!whizzard
From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WTB: Stationfall
Date: 26 Jul 1996 04:53:40 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
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It was pointed out to me that my dates were wrong.  Infocom had 40
employees at the time of the takeover, and the leaving of employees and
layoffs took place after.  I apologize for the misinformation, and
withdraw from the discussion.  When I let something get me flustered badly
enough to get my facts wrong, it is clearly to my benefit to drop the
matter.  Some days it just doesn't pay to get out of bed.
-- 
	"Unspeakable glyphs discolor the filth-blackened walls of this 
infernal sanctum.  Scribed in the center of the room is a blood red 
circle inlaid with a silver pentagram."
		-An excerpt from "Avalon", a game under construction.


From werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at Tue Jul 30 14:37:28 CED 1996
Article: 15869 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!03-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!alijku02!news
From: Werner Punz - Dipl <werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WTB: Stationfall
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:23:15 +0200
Organization: Johannes Kepler University Linz
Lines: 23
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Gerry Kevin Wilson wrote:
> 
> It was pointed out to me that my dates were wrong.  Infocom had 40
> employees at the time of the takeover, and the leaving of employees and
> layoffs took place after.

Well I would say takeover is the wrong word. As far as I can remember
an interview which I read at that time following happened.
Activision released some apps for the home business market which didin't
sell very well ( in fact they sold lousy because they had no name in
that market which wasn't very big at that time either). The time for
pure text adventure games to become a great market success was also over
so the gains they got
from there text adventure games couldn't cope the losses on the apps.
So the Infocom chiefs decided to sell the company to get out
of the financial disaster and they sold it to Activsion (As far as I can
recall the interview the person from Infocom said we actually decided
which company should buy us) Seems like Activsion had the best offer to
me. Whatever happened afterwards I can't say for sure. Only Activision
and people who worked for Infocom know that exactly.


Werner


From SusanD@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 30 14:38:09 CED 1996
Article: 15932 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: SusanD@ix.netcom.com (Susan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WTB: Stationfall
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:29:24 -0700
Organization: * Stargate *
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>I think the problem (at least for some people around here) is that
>Activision killed Infocom. It wasn't Cornerstone, it wasn't Shogun
>or Journey, it was Activision that killed them off. And that's
>something some of us have great problems to forgive and forget...

	I think this is true too except for one thing.  I believe one of
the Implementors said recently that there were a number of people in
Infocom who wanted to produce other things besides text adventures and
the "company" could not thwart their efforts - thus Cornerstone.  I've
come to think now that there were two parts to Infocom.  One was the
"pure text adventure - no other way" part that I was well aware of and
loved; and two, the "let's try something different - let's even try
graphics" part.  Cornerstone "infected" Infocom.  Activision
"infected" Infocom too.  It was to much for the "pure text adventure -
no other way" part to resist.  If Infocom itself had been intact
Activision might have left them alone.

	Wouldn't it be great if Activision today could see a little
Infocom division producing pure text adventures again?  Sigh...

	* Susan *  <SusanD@ix.netcom.com>


From werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at Tue Jul 30 14:38:29 CED 1996
Article: 15870 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Werner Punz - Dipl <werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WTB: Stationfall
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:45:24 +0200
Organization: Johannes Kepler University Linz
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> I think the problem (at least for some people around here) is that
> Activision killed Infocom. It wasn't Cornerstone, it wasn't Shogun
> or Journey, it was Activision that killed them off. And that's
> something some of us have great problems to forgive and forget...

As far as I can remember most people left Infocom before Activision had
anything to say in that company but after the deal was fixed. So
Activision only had the name left because all the programmers were gone
and what they wanted to aquire was the personal in combination with the
name. What could they do with that name alone, the time to make big
money with pure text adventure games was pretty over. I don't think
thats killing off a company because from time to time they still use the
name and thats pretty much all they've got from the deal. (But I could
be wrong thats what the press published in Europe).

Bob Bates the founder of Legend started with some of the Infocom
personal Legend with the intention to revive the basic ideas of Infocom
(which in his opinion were good stories in adventure games) with
avoiding the mistakes of Infocom made. In an interview I read at the
time he started Legend he said:

>One of the big mistakes Infocom made was to ignore graphics.
>The average computer user wants to see fancy graphics on his machine...

(It is more or less what he said as far as I can remember but somebody
from Legend can correct me)

Werner


From h0142kdd@joker.rz.hu-berlin.de Tue Jul 30 14:38:44 CED 1996
Article: 15917 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: h0142kdd@joker.rz.hu-berlin.de (Paul David Doherty)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WTB: Stationfall
Date: 27 Jul 1996 09:45:28 +0200
Organization: Humboldt Universitaet Berlin
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In article <31F893B4.446B9B3D@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at>,
Werner Punz - Dipl  <werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at> wrote:
>
>As far as I can remember most people left Infocom before Activision had
>anything to say in that company but after the deal was fixed. So
>Activision only had the name left because all the programmers were gone
>and what they wanted to aquire was the personal in combination with the
>name.
[...]
>(But I could
>be wrong thats what the press published in Europe).

Yep, you're wrong. The Infocom Fact-sheet covers this and other questions.
It is available from the IF archive:

ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/infocom/info/fact-sheet.txt

-- Dave (who, incidentally, maintains said Fact-sheet...)



From adam@tucson.princeton.edu Tue Jul 30 14:41:03 CED 1996
Article: 15927 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: adam@tucson.princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WTB: Stationfall
Date: 27 Jul 1996 04:51:01 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4tc77l$h60@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
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In article <4tbn99$n3q@tom.amherst.edu>,
an unearthly child <adcarnev@unix.amherst.edu> wrote:
>sez adam:
>: I made sure that the place I bought it from accepted returns "even if it
>: works OK, it just sucks."
>Having never played LGOP2, I can only wonder as to its suckiness. Tell me,
>is it as bad as RTZ?

It is much, much, much worse than RTZ.

There were parts of RTZ that I enjoyed.

LGOP 2 is incredibly abysmal.  To misquote Opus the Penguin "This game
gives new definition to badness.  It is more bad than any other previous
badness could possibly have been."

However, Opus winds up with "well, maybe not that bad, but, Lord, it wasn't
good."  Whereas, LGOP2 was, indeed, that bad.

Adam
-- 
adam@phoenix.princeton.edu | Viva HEGGA! | Save the choad! | 64,928 | Fnord
"Double integral is also the shape of lovers curled asleep":Pynchon | Linux
Thanks for letting me rearrange the chemicals in your head. | Team OS/2
You can have my PGP passphrase when you pry it from my cold, dead brain.


From jholder@frii.com Tue Jul 30 14:41:24 CED 1996
Article: 16001 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jholder@frii.com (John Holder)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WTB: Stationfall
Date: 28 Jul 1996 23:44:14 GMT
Organization: Front Range Internet, Inc.
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Paul David Doherty (h0142kdd@joker.rz.hu-berlin.de) wrote:
: I think the problem (at least for some people around here) is that
: Activision killed Infocom. It wasn't Cornerstone, it wasn't Shogun
: or Journey, it was Activision that killed them off. And that's
: something some of us have great problems to forgive and forget...

And then, activision reorganized and formed a parent company,
Mediagenic, that was the parent company of Activision and
Infocom.  Mediagenic nearly went bankrupt, and had a merger
with The Disc Company.  Later, the Disc Company changed
their name back to Activision, the Activision of today.
While they still hold right to all the old Infocom and
Activision games, they are hardly the same company after all 
that.  Cut Activision a break.

John

--
John Holder (jholder@frii.com)   http://www.frii.com/~jholder/
 UNIX Specialist, Paranet Inc., Denver, Colorado, USA, Earth 
    Death is just God's way of dropping carrier detect...


From mmartin@seanet.com Tue Jul 30 14:42:42 CED 1996
Article: 15929 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: "Michael C. Martin" <mmartin@seanet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WTB: Stationfall
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 10:27:31 -0700
Organization: Seanet Online Services, Seattle WA
Lines: 27
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Gerry Kevin Wilson wrote:
> 

> It seems silly to me to continue to lavish insult and complaints on a
> company that is doing its very best to mend its bridges.  For the first
> time in quite awhile, we've seen a commercial company pay $$ for text
> adventures.  They are supporting the I-F Competition.  They are doing
> their damnedest to get us up-to-date information on the Masterpieces
> Collection.  Mitch Lasky has other work to do as well, I hope you guys
> realize.  He's not a net.rep.


HEAR HEAR.  Well said.

What happened to Infocom and Activision's involvement in it is past
history.  This is the here and now.  I am pretty new to this newsgroup,
but I'll tell you, very seldom have I ever seen a company get involved
in such a small, mostly unprofitable niche market like I'm seeing
Activision do here.  Lets not bite the hand that is feeding us.  Sounds
to me like Mitch, if not Activision, is working VERY HARD, probably
against popular opinion within his company, to support the I-F
community.  If all we can do is cut them down for their efforts we
deserve what we get (i.e., no future/new releases of Infocom or
Infocom-like material from Activision).  Use that energy to thank these
guys for taking an interest in us and in promoting IF.

Mike


From johnf@thuridion.com Wed Jul 31 17:38:18 CED 1996
Article: 16023 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: John Francis <johnf@thuridion.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WTB: Stationfall
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:52:30 -0700
Organization: The Society For Putting Things On Top Of Other Things
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an unearthly child wrote:
> 
> Gerry Kevin Wilson (whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:
> 
> : It was pointed out to me that my dates were wrong.  Infocom had 40
> : employees at the time of the takeover, and the leaving of employees and
> : layoffs took place after.
> 
> Good points for you for posting this. But yeek! Maybe we _do_ have cause
> to be peeved with Activision after all.
> 
> -kiddo

Don't read too much into raw figures.  I've been part of two smaller
companies taken over by larger outfits, and in each case much of the
attrition took place after the actual takeover.  Quite often most of
the best employees leave early (unless they are offered substantial
incentives to stay on), as they want to stay working for fairly small
companies (or, often, found their own startups).
Then there is the inevitable delay while the new organization finds
out just what it is that it has bought - almost always not exactly
what it thought it was getting.  By the time this has taken place
there may no longer be enough of the old company left to form a
critical mass, given that the company was struggling anyway (why else
would it be up for purchase?).  So they are losing more money than
was expected. The best cure for this is, unfortunately, layoffs.
The smaller the original company, the more likely this is to happen.
40 employees is pretty small.


From davesilb@hooked.net Thu Aug  1 09:17:16 CED 1996
Article: 16039 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: David Silberman <davesilb@hooked.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Lost Treasures
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:50:04 -0700
Organization: Hooked Online Services
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Richard G Clegg wrote:
> 
> 
>   I also nearly finished Deadline (I would've finished it properly if I'd've
> realised you could arrest X and Y) which would've been a good game if it
> wasn't for the fact that IMHO the detective could only win with the benefit
> of hindsight (e.g. If I go to location x at time y I will see z) which is
> not exactly in the spirit of the detective novel (where the detective
> generally "wins" by intelligence rather than recalling what happened
> in a previous version of this reality).  I can't see a way round this
> in IF though.  Finally I  got woefully stuck on Zork II with
> that bl**dy diamond maze like, I imagine, just about every non-US
> player.

The three main Infocom mysteries (Deadline, Witness and Suspect) are actually
very similar to Suspended in that they are most enjoyable if you approach each
one as a single large intricate puzzle.  Do not expect to have any chance 
of solving them "on the fly" but instead expect to play through several times,
studying all of the parts (character movements, schedules, evidence) and 
then putting it all together into the final solution.  These can be the most 
frustrating Infocom games but have a lot of nice little details that are 
easy to miss if you obsessively pursue the winning outcome.  This is especially 
true of Witness IMHO, which must be the game with the quickest solve-time 
(minimum number of moves to win) in the entire collection.  It is easy to 
win Witness and miss most of the interesting parts.

You might want to try Ballyhoo. It's an interesting attempt at a mystery 
without a clock.  As I recall, it was one of the earliest games to use 
an event driven plot, where the story moves forwards based on solving puzzles
instead of the number of turns that have passed.  For example, reading a 
certain book in the game might cause someone to leave their house elsewhere, 
allowing you to enter undetected.  There is no explicit connection
between the events.  

This model has the advantage of removing the frantic feel of the earlier 
mysteries but sometimes stretches credibility.  I feel that some of the 
Lucas Arts adventures (i.e. Monkey Island) take this technique to extremes.

Dave


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Thu Aug  1 09:17:55 CED 1996
Article: 16043 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: My Take on Masterpieces.
Date: 1 Aug 1996 06:42:05 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4tpjjt$sk4@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu


Ok, I got my copy of Masterpieces in the mail.  So now I finally feel like
talking about the product.  Bear in mind that I helped do some work on it,
so I'm biased.  (Yes, they paid me money, so I'm even more biased.)

The Games: LTOI 1 and 2, and LGOP.  No Shogun or Hitchhikers.  But we knew
that.  The 6 Highest Ranking First Annual I-F Competition entries.  Under
Win95, they all get installed into one big honking directory.

We have yet to see the following Infocom products in a collection: 4
Infocomics, Fooblitzky, Cornerstone, Solid Gold datafiles, Infocom demo
files, Mines of Titan, Circuit's Edge, Quarterstaff, Battletech 1 and 2.

Box:  The box is nice.  It sort of opens up in a manner reminiscent of the
old grey boxes.

Documentation:  The little manual is nice.  It puts a lot of emphasis on
the 6 contest entries.  The scanned stuff is good as well, though some
things are still too low res. for my tastes.  I'm pretty pleased with how
it all came out though, and I was glad to be a part of it.  Oh yeah, cheap
thrill looking at the about.txt file in the Verylost directory, some of my
comments made it in there.  Overall pretty good quality.  With Win95 I
don't have any trouble keeping Acrobat going while playing one or two of
the games, so no biggie there.

Wishlist for Future: Fill in missing programs, include scans of all Status
Lines, etc.  Pictures of original packaging.  Interactive Timeline with
important events and old pictures.  Video interviews with the Imps.  Stuff
like that.
-- 
	"This chamber is gaudily decorated and painful to the eye.  
Bright reds and greens clash with blues and yellows in an idiot's 
conception of splendor."
		-An excerpt from "Avalon", a game under construction.


From jokisch@euklid.informatik.uni-dortmund.de Fri Aug  2 15:08:33 CED 1996
Article: 16074 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jokisch@euklid.informatik.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Jokisch)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Zork Zero weirdness!
Date: 2 Aug 1996 11:31:49 GMT
Organization: University of Dortmund, Germany
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tsov5$dce@fbi-news.Informatik.Uni-Dortmund.DE>
References: <4tpe7i$qn4@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: euklid.informatik.uni-dortmund.de

adam@flagstaff.Princeton.EDU (Adam J. Thornton) writes:

>Did you ever know there was a Demonstration Version of Zork Zero embedded
>in the program code?

Yes.  Every now and then someone discovers it.  I also thought
I was the first one, but I wasn't.

>Do we have a tool that will turn txd-created files into Z-machine story
>files?  Is this something Inform is capable of?

>It sure would be nice to disassemble some of the old favorites, bypass the
>annoying puzzles--the catacombs (if you're not lucky enough to have
>$catacombs in your version) or the Tower of Hanoi, for instance--and
>reassemble them.

No, you cannot reassemble Infocom games.  This would be very,
very difficult to do, if not impossible.  However, sometimes
you only need to change a few bytes in the story file if you
want to achieve certain effects.  For instance, I once figured
out which byte must be changed to activate the demonstration
mode of "Zork Zero".  I think there's also a list of changes
to bypass certain copy protections (such as the password and
user id in "The Lurking Horror")...

-- Stefan


From tobyf@world.std.com Sat Aug  3 16:23:25 CED 1996
Article: 16089 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!world!tobyf
From: tobyf@world.std.com
Subject: Macuser 50 All-Time Best Shareware Programs
Message-ID: <DvJHGv.52u@world.std.com>
Sender: tobyf@world.std.com (Toby Franklin)
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 01:58:07 GMT
Lines: 7

Recently I bought the current issue of Macuser, and found a small booklet
included in the package entitled "50 All-Time Best Shareware Programs".
Looking through it, I found Magnus Olsson's "Dungeons of Dunjin" and Andrew
Plotkin's "System's Twilight" in the games section. Congratulations to them!

--Toby Franklin (tobyf@world.std.com)



From s7m6@romulus.sun.csd.unb.ca Mon Aug  5 10:08:43 CED 1996
Article: 16124 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Brad O`Donnell <s7m6@romulus.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Comment on how to make money on IF
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 20:17:18 -0300
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David Edward Eison wrote:
> 
> There
> are _millions_ of people out there who spend their spare time playing
> Solitaire, not because it's great, but because it's already installed > and they know how to run it- point and click. 

>  And I'd like to see 'em playing IF.

 (  It's not a pretty sight: here's an idea of the first time 
 a friend of mine tried to play a text game )
 
  Shipwreck
 You are standing in the midst of the remains of your beached (and
destroyed) wooden boat. To the east is the beach.

:> so what?
I don't understand the word 'so.'

:> why not 

I don't understand the word 'why.'

:> get wood 

You don't see that here.

  (At this point, most users throw up their hands in frustration at not
 being able to do anything, then swear never to touch another of these 
'text' games again: "Back to DOOM for me. I'm haven't got the head for
 this kinda stuff.")

> The only other way to get
> IF to many more people is to go install it on their computers for them  
> and personally drag them into it, which isn't feasible for a lot of
> people.

  I've tried that with many people; it just doesn't gain converts.  My 
theory is that for the most part, people don't want to struggle to be
entertained. 
  This is a problem for just about any game that has a lot 
of independant controls-- If a game couldn't be possibly played with 
either a mouse or joystick, using the keyboard only for saving,
restoring, quitting, etc, few people out there would try to figure out
how to play it.  It's sad but true.  (That's why everybody's first
game should be some small game with a two-word parser and only about
15 verbs -- unfortunately, today most kids' first games are something
point-and-click.)

  The point (yay! a point) is that most people don't dig learning how
to play I-F.  Many people I've introduced I-F to are put off by the 
use of the second person in I-F.  It seems comforting to 'adults' 
to control someone else instead of being told you _are_ someone else.  
Kids don't have as big a problem with this.

  Are there any ideas on making I-F easier to play and get into, while
not reducing the challenge inhernt to adventures?

  Perhaps I-F needs a new idiom... perhaps not.

					Brad O'Donnell


From rglasser@ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 13 11:20:08 CED 1996
Article: 16302 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: rglasser@ix.netcom.com(Russell Wain Glasser)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Douglas Adams at Siggraph
Date: 12 Aug 1996 02:57:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11  7:57:05 PM PDT 1996

    Hiya folks!  I was going to write this letter earlier, but my
letter bounced and, like an idiot, I hadn't saved it.  So, in spite of
the headaches, here's a basic reconstruction of the earlier letter.
    I came back from the Siggraph convention in New Orleans last
Wednesday, and it was a major blast.  For those who don't know,
Siggraph, short for "Special Interest Group GRAPHics," is a massive
week-long yearly convention dedicated to showing off the latest the
world of computer graphics has to offer, whether it be computer games,
movie effects, scientific applications, or whatever...
    So anyway, you'd never guess who was the keynote speaker on
Wednesday morning... DOUGLAS ADAMS!!!  Yeah, at first I thought, "What
does he have to do with computer graphics?  To the best of my
knowledge, the last thing he did with computers was Bureaucracy in
1996."  Well, guess what?  The man is back, he's doing games, and his
latest project is called "The Spaceship Titanic," scheduled for release
around Christmas of '97.
    I don't know how much Douglas knows about the computer industry,
but the man is one of the most brilliant speakers I've ever heard. 
According to the program notes, his speech was about "The future of the
galaxy," and he had an awful lot to say about what a long way computers
have come.  "The first time I ever saw a home computer, it just looked
like a big boxy thing in a store.  I had no idea what it was or what it
was good for, but I knew I had to have one..."
    And for you Hitchhiker fans, here's some good news.  The idea of a
Hitchhiker's movie has been kicked around for years, and it's STILL
being kicked around, but not abandoned yet.  "Every year I don't do a
movie, I find more reasons to be glad that I haven't done it yet.  I
did not like the TV series, because the technology wasn't available to
do justice to the books.  Now I think we're getting closer to a level
where we can make a good movie series."
    So, for those of you who have been wondering where he's been since
"Teatime of the Soul", Don't Panic!  He's alive and well, and "SS
Titanic" sounds terrific to me.
    Was anyone else at Siggraph this year?

                            Russell



From cliftcom@wwa.com Wed Aug 14 12:53:25 CED 1996
Article: 16331 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: cliftcom@wwa.com (Christopher Schweda)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Overview of the IF Scene (Re: The I-F CD project)
Date: 13 Aug 1996 17:07:03 GMT
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> It truly is a lovely idea.  Really.  Especially the wonderful filler
> material.
> The problem is that the project as it has been proposed (and nicely
> summarized/described in your post) would take several man-years to develop
> and test, and is therefore currently in the stage of perpetual pipe dream.
> Adding the extra chrome to a collection truly takes work, and can't be a
> slapped-together late one night by a bunch of students kind of project if
> you expect it to actually work on ma and pop's random computer.  In fact,
> I don't believe I have ever seen a commercial project attempt the scope
> that has been suggested for this.
> It's a nice idea, really, but don't get your hopes up.  It's a lot of talk
> from a lot of dreamers.
> 


"Several man-years?"

Ignoring the language/gender issues, I think you're a tad pessimistic. In
fact, you're downright wrong -- and I rarely say that.

I've lurked in this group for several years now. I write and teach
professionally in Chicago and have always wanted to write IF. I can tell a
story, write a treatment, but I lack the technical knowledge to get into,
say, Inform or TADS (even though I'm a registered owner) and produce
something viable.

In fact, today or tomorrow, I was thinking of posting a CFWP -- Call For
Writing Partner, heh. But that's another story.

Self-promotion aside, I think this sort of IF CD is an excellent idea. And
from the posts I've read thus far, I see nothing that makes me think such
a project is prohibitively difficult or costly. Moreover, there's nothing
to indicate that the project, once completed, will have the "slapped
together by a bunch of students" feel to it. If anything, it'll be
downright slick -- a rare thing in today's "shovelware" CDROM mentality.

"Lot of talk from a lot of dreamers?" Well (and I don't mean to be sappy
here) I think most readers -- be they readers of printed fiction or
interactive fiction -- tend to be "dreamers." Dreaming, I think we'll all
agree, is a prerequisite for successful imagination. In fact, the IF
community seems to have gotten a bit more resilient in recent years, and
what several years seemed to be a "lost art" has now become, IMHO, a
viable and important method of textual creation, representation, and
dissemination.

On a personal level, I'm fascinated with IF. From the games I've played
recently, I see incredible insight and imagination. The new IF fiction
scene is in some ways more exciting than what's happening in, say, the
"hot young American novelist" scene and is *certainly* more exciting than
what's happening in many MFA fiction-writing programs across America. (I'm
not saying that either of these two "scenes" are the be-all and end-all of
contemporary writing; I'm just giving two examples.) 

IF is really *alive* -- especially because its expert practioneers (sp?)
are aware of the vitality of the medium. Walk into, say, a hot-shot
writing workshop at a hot-shot university, and you'll see a bunch of
sleepy-head grad students who for the most part recycle the same, stale
formulaic novels and short-stories ad infinitum.

So, yeah: dreamers? Certainly. But that's the way it should be. We're here
for the same common goal. We share the same interests. Ain't nothing wrong
with ambition. It's what gets things done.

Now, is there anyone out there who's a TADs or INFORM wiz and is looking
for a writing partner/IF fanatic who can tell a good, succinct story?
E-mail me; we'll talk.


Chris Schweda
Clift Communications

personal e-mail: schweda@wwa.com
business: cliftcom@wwa.com


From jools@arnod.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 14 12:55:46 CED 1996
Article: 16332 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Julian Arnold <jools@arnod.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: New parsers? (was: The Return of Scott Adams)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:21:23 +0100 (BST)
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In article <01bb8895$98d19fc0$f2033ece@pv1059>, M Scott Adams
<URL:mailto:msadams@pcii.net> wrote:
> 
> It is almost like watching a group of people play telephone. :> My "new"
> game is nothing revolutionary at all but just a fun way for me to get back
> to writing some games. See my thread elsewhere in this group for a little
> more info. Sorry about all the fuss, I dind't realize there were such
> expectations. Oh well, all I can hope is that it is still playable and fun.
> (Scott)

So the re-fribulating gigometer is just a rumour? :)

> > Absolutely.  Advances to the parser give the player a greater sense of
> > freedom of expression.  However, this freedom is illusory.  If the
> > player is told he can use sentences such as "claire, how are you feeling
> > today" he will then ask (and justifiably) why can't I use "claire, how
> > do you feel today".  If the game/parser author has allowed for this it
> > will be why can't I use "claire, what's up."  The greater the promise,
> > the higher the expectation.  Our current knowledge and methods of
> > constructing parsers simply can't deliver-- if we try to advance the
> > parser in this way, without making fundamental changes to these methods
> > of parser construction, our advances will always be, IMO fatally,
> > flawed.
> 
> What I've found is most people end up NOT using the advanced parser and
> just using  two and three word sentences anyway! 

Yes, I think this is true to an extent.  I rarely, unless I'm feeling
particularly verbose, use compund sentences (ie, entering a list of
commands separated with commas, full-stops, "ands," or "thens").  I'll
usually split my input into however many independent clause commands,
and enter them one by one.  (BTW, have I got my terminology right?)

OTOH a parser which can understand sentences of the form <VERB> <DIRECT
OBJECT> <INDIRECT OBJECT> is virtually essential nowadays (both for
player convenience, and to make many aspects (puzzles) of the game
possible at all).

If I was told I could use sentences as in the example above, I would be
going for the more complex sentence structure, which is exactly why we
should be happy with what we've got until someone does figure out a way
of accounting for *everything* the player might type in every
conceivable form (just about).

Jools
-- 



From PaulHarker@gnn.com Thu Aug 15 14:41:29 CED 1996
Article: 16361 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: PaulHarker@gnn.com (Paul Harker)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Masterpieces - - How to fix "bloopers"
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 18:19:39
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How to install missing features of the "MasterPieces" CD collection.

  I love my new Infocom Masterpieces collection! Back in the 'ol days of
Infocom regrettably my income didn't allow me to buy more than a 
couple games. Now, thanks to this collection I can re-live the 'golden' 
days of computer gaming. It's interesting to note that my children (girl 
and boy ages 13 and 15) have forsaken their sound and video-rich games 
in favor of Infocom games ever since I purchased the collection!

  Anyway, back on topic, as noted in some earlier posts, there are some 
"missing" files in the collection. While none of the missing files are 
required to play the games, having them adds features and dimensions
which enrich the games. The games affected are: ZorkZero, Sherlock, and 
Lurking Horror.

  I hope the following instructions help folks spend their time playing
the games instead of fumbling around trying to get all the pieces
working together! Please email me with any errata!

ZorkZero :: missing MCGA/VGA graphics file. 

Download zork0.mg1 from 
    ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/infocom/missing-files

Place zork0.mg1 in your Zork0 directory. 

Windows95
  Create a shortcut to Zorkzero.exe.
  Edit the "Cmd line" in the shortcut properties to read
      c:\<path>\infocom\zork0\zorkzero.exe /dm
  Run Zorkzero using the shortcut 

Dos/Windows3.1x
   Create a Zorkzero.bat file containing:
      c:\<path>\infocom\zork0\zorkzero.exe /dm
   Run Zorkzero using the Zorkzero.bat file

You should now have MCGA/VGA graphics. Incidentally, /dc yields cga
graphics, and /de is for ega (the default).
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sherlock :: missing sounds and sound support.

To enable sounds, download the sound files 'shsound.zip' as well as a
sound-capable game interpreter 'frotzd02.zip', from

    ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/infocom/missing-files
                            and
    ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/infocom/interpreters/frotz

Unzip shsound.zip to your Sherlock directory

Make a subdirectory Sherlock\Sound and move all SherloXX.snd files to it.

Following the instructions in the readme.txt extracted from shsound.zip,
update your sherlock.dat file to release 26. The resultant sherlock.dat
file should be placed in your \Sherlock directory.

Unzip frotzd02.zip to your Infocom directory

Create a file called Sherlock.bat file in your Sherlock directory which
contains this entry:

  ..\frotz sherlock.dat

You can safely delete all files in the Sherlock directory EXCEPT:
  Sherlock.dat
  Sherlock.bat
  Sound directory and it's contents.

Ensure you have your soundblaster environment properly set in your
autoexec.bat as described in the Frotz Readme.txt. Frotz has a large 
variety of additional options so there is alot of good stuff there.

You should now be able to play Sherlock with sounds by executing the 
Sherlock.bat file
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lurking Horror :: missing sound support.

The ZIP archive of Lurking Horror sounds (lhsound.zip) comes with
"Masterpieces" but is  "hidden" in the Lurking/data directory. Unzip this
file to your Lurking/data directory.

Make a directory named Lurking/sound and copy all Lurkinxx.dat files to 
this directory.

Referring to the instructions in the readme.txt extracted from lhsound.zip,
update your lurking.dat file to release 221. The resultant lurking.dat
file should be placed in your \Lurking directory.


If you don't already have it, download 'frotzd02.zip' as above and Unzip 
it to your Infocom directory.

Create a file named Lurking.bat file in your Lurking directory which
contains this entry:
 
  ..\frotz lurking.dat

You can safely delete all files in the Lurking directory EXCEPT:
  Lurking.bat
  Lurking.dat
  Sound directory and it's contents

Ensure you have your soundblaster environment properly set in your
autoexec.bat as described in the Frotz Readme.txt. Frotz has a large 
variety of additional options so there is alot of good stuff there.

You should now be able to play Lurking Horror with sounds by executing
the Lurking.bat file
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





From d91tan@csd.uu.se Mon Aug 19 09:00:14 CED 1996
Article: 16432 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: d91tan@csd.uu.se (Torbj|rn Andersson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Does ANYONE Like Mazes in IF?
Date: 18 Aug 1996 22:12:46 +0200
Organization: Computing Science Dep., University of Uppsala, Sweden.
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In-reply-to: "Michael C. Martin"'s message of Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:41:06 -0700
X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1

mmartin@seanet.com (Michael C. Marton) wrote:

> One thing I've noticed is that EVERYONE seems to hate the use of mazes
> in interactive fiction.  I have yet to see anyone post who actually
> enjoys them.  Does ANYONE think mazes in IF games are a good idea, and

It depends a lot on the maze. Unless you plan to do something
clever with it, and unless there is some understandable reason
for it to be there, I wouldn't put one in a game (as if I'd
ever get one written :-).

However, some people have managed to do quite clever things
with mazes, such as the translucent rooms in Enchanter, the
glass maze in Sorcerer, or, to include something a bit more
recent, the garden maze in Curses. These mazes, I didn't mind
at all.

Of course, I've seen clever mazes that were quite tedious to
solve, such as the catacombs in Leather Goddesses of Phobos,
or the mazes in Deep Space Drifter. I guess the moral is to
keep the maze small, regardless of how clever it may be.

> if not, why did everyone keep throwing mazes into the older games
> (haven't seen much of this in recent IF)!

I'm speculating here ... feel free to add your own theories.

Tradition, perhaps. After all, Mazes have been part of the
genre since the very beginning.

A maze (by any name) can be a cheap way of extending a game's
geography without wasting memory (an important issue on older
computers). Or creativity for that matter; any fool can make
a maze. Also, if memory serves me, the number of rooms used
to be a selling point back in the bad maybe-not-so-old days.

As you point out, mazes are less frequent in newer games
(though to be fair, there are quite a few older games that
are completely maze-free). Computers have become better --
it's possible to make a game cover a large area without
making every room identical. Since the days of Adventure
and Zork, the games have become a lot more plot-oriented;
everything in a game is expected to be there for a reason,
regardless of whether or not there is a use for it. Lots of
reasons, really.

Also, I suspect that a sizable part of the people who play
this sort of games today are the same as those who used to
play the maze-laden games of, say, 10 or 15 years ago, i.e.
the audience might be a bit more mature these days. Young
computer users of today are probably more likely to play
games such as Doom, and what is Doom if not a maze? :-)

Enough rambling from me for today ...

     _
Torbjorn


From ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu Tue Aug 20 13:47:22 CED 1996
Article: 16456 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Christopher E. Forman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Good AGT Games [was: BAD ... (on r.a.i-f.)]
Date: 19 Aug 1996 02:04:26 GMT
Organization: Village of Windhall
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: >I suspect most of us have shied away from these adventures, but something
: >worthwhile must have come out of all of those contests.

I believe there are a great many AGT games that can be called worthwhile, but
they're held back by three things:

1) That damn repeat-the-whole-#$&%ing-room-description-every-time-you-move-
   in-an-invalid-direction "feature"!  AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!  If it were
   not for this, I would actually LIKE AGT!

2) The lack of a "restart" command.  I mean, come on, the system was written
   in the late 80s, for chrissake!  "Restart" should have been a firmly
   established necessity in I-F years ago.

3) Disallowing common phrasings consisting of more than two words.  You can't
   say "TURN OFF LAMP", you must "EXTINGUISH LAMP" -- and this is in the
   port of "Adventure", for crying out loud!  This was done by the very
   authors of AGT.  If they can't make effective use of the parser, how can
   we reasonably expect others to?

AGT also makes it too easy for authors to create games with minimal thought
and/or effort, which tends to give us a higher percentage of truly abysmal
games than any other system.

--
C.E. Forman                                      ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Classic I-F FS/FT in Ye Olde Infocomme Shoppe!  (Mail me for current stock.)
Read XYZZYnews at http://www.interport.net/~eileen/design/xyzzynews.html
Vote I-F in 1996!  Visit http://www.xs4all.nl/~jojo/pcgames.html for info!
"Circle of Armageddon", Vol. 2 of "The Windhall Chronicles" arrives Feb 1997!



From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Tue Aug 20 14:17:45 CED 1996
Article: 16460 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Avalon
Date: 19 Aug 1996 08:37:45 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 31
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References: <4v28j1$7bb@shell1.aimnet.com> <MPLANET.32170f88klo989693@news.nexusprime.org> <4v8erq$f3g@agate.berkeley.edu> <DwDL1p.KFn@canon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu

In article <DwDL1p.KFn@canon.co.uk>, Neil Bowers <neilb@canon.co.uk> wrote:
: -- 
: 	"There are over 40 other creatures in the game.  More than half of
: them are well-developed, some to an unprecedented level.  They answer your
: questions, talk to each other, learn things, and have goals of their own."
: 	A quote about _Avalon_, an all-text adventure due in the future.

>Maybe it should be called Microsoft Avalon, or Avalon 97 (is that too hopeful?)

97 is about right.  I mean, if I aim for 2097, that gives me over a
century to finish it.  Surely even I can write a game in a century.
Seriously, most of the stuff in the .sig above already works.  it's just a
matter of getting off my butt and doing that last month or so worth of
code.  As usual, I am too cowardly to set a release date.

>I voted for Avalon on the weekly games charts!

It occurs to me that the backlash of deflated expectations after Avalon's
release is going to be an awe-inspiring sight.  Happily, I'll have fled
the country by that stage and changed my name to something obscure and
foreign.  And hopefully one or two people will even enjoy the game.

Anyways, back to loafing around.

	Kevin "Maybe I'll aim for October 9th.....3617 AD." Wilson

-- 
	"There are over 40 other creatures in the game.  More than half of
them are well-developed, some to an unprecedented level.  They answer your
questions, talk to each other, learn things, and have goals of their own."
	A quote about _Avalon_, an all-text adventure due in the future.


From ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu Tue Aug 20 16:10:37 CED 1996
Article: 16398 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Christopher E. Forman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Announcing the MST3K1 Silver Screen Edition!!!
Date: 16 Aug 1996 03:06:51 GMT
Organization: Village of Windhall
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                        It's NEW!!  (Well, sort of.)

                It's FUN!!  (Entirely a matter of opinion.)

                                 It's the...

                                  ________
                                /          \
                              /    Mystery   \
                             |     Science    |             Low-budget
                             |     Theater    |      <----- ten-second
                              \     3000     /              ASCII art.
                                \__________/

                                   MST3K1

            S I L V E R    S C R E E N    E D I T I O N  ! ! ! (TM)


That's right, fans of the original "Detective" MiSTing -- MST3K1 is back, and
BETTER THAN EVER!!!  And this week only, we're offering MST3K1 to you for the
low-low price of ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!  That's right, we're GIVING IT AWAY!!!
I tell you, an offer like this is just TOO GOOD TO PASS UP!!!  It's so good
we have to PRINT HALF OUR WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS JUST TO HAVE A CHANCE OF
PROPERLY CONVEYING THE EXCITEMENT IN THE AIR!!!

"So what?" you're asking.  "I've played MST3K1 already."

Well, you might have played MST3K1, but until now you HAVEN'T HEARD THE WHOLE
STORY!!!  This is an all-new release with ABSOLUTELY NO NEW JOKES ADDED!!!
But THAT'S NOT ALL!!!  The MST3K1 Silver Screen Edition (TM) also includes:

*    A whole bunch of stuff about the making of the original MST3K1 that
     NO ONE IN HIS OR HER RIGHT MIND WOULD EVER WANT TO WASTE TIME
     READING!!!

*    A couple of old UseNet posts about "Detective" that I thought were
     funny enough to include, but about which everyone else probably
     DOESN'T EVEN GIVE A DAMN!!!

*    An excruciatingly in-depth look at the not-quite-making of MST3K2
     (my planned follow-up to MST3K1), including the original introduction
     I'd planned to use, and explanations of some of the jokes that were
     SO PITIFULLY UNFUNNY I COULDN'T BEAR TO UNLEASH THEM ON AN UNSUSPECTING
     POPULACE!!!

*    The MST3K1 Silver Screen Edition (TM) SOURCE CODE!!!  Unsatisfied with
     my MiSTing?  Now you can add your very own clever comments about
     "Detective" RIGHT IN THE COMFORT OF YOUR OWN HOME!!!  The MST3K1
     Silver Screen Edition (TM) source code will provide you with... er...
     MINUTES!!! of entertainment.

*    And BEST OF ALL!!!, an exclusive interview with the man behind the
     original "Detective", MR. MATT BARRINGER HIMSELF!!!


DON'T MISS OUT!!!  The MST3K1 Silver Screen Edition (TM) is going to be
THE I-F EVENT OF THE DECADE!!!  (Since "Avalon" won't be released until 2007.)

But don't take MY word for it.  After all, I'm the one who wrote it, so it's
only natural that I'd praise it to no end.  Here's what other I-Fers have
said about the original MST3K1:


     "...a lot of it was completely meaningless to me, especially the
     introduction and the endgame, and I probably wouldn't play another
     similar game."

                   -- Gareth Rees, author of "Christminster"
                      SPAG #8



     "...the only game aspects are those of `Detective', which is a very
     very bad game."

                   -- Magnus Olsson, author of "Uncle Zebulon's Will"
                      SPAG #7


     "...you might not get much out of it...you'll probably want to give
     this one a miss..."

                  -- Carl Muckenhoupt
                     "Baf's Guide to the I-F Archive"


     "...the game may be initially confusing to players unfamiliar with
     the original TV show."

                   -- Eileen Mullin, editor of XYZZYnews
                      XYZZYnews #5



     "PLOT:        Trivial                 ATMOSPHERE:  Demented
      WRITING:     Pathetic                PUZZLES:     None
      CHARACTERS:  Cardboard               DIFFICULTY:  None at all"

                   -- Graeme Cree, guy I stole the idea from
                      SPAG #7



     "Obviously inspired by Graeme Cree's review from SPAG #5..."

                   -- Palmer Davis, SPAG #7



     "Oh, and I'm going to kill you."

                   -- Andrew C. Plotkin, author of "So Far",
                      in an e-mail conversation of which
                      the less said, the better.



But don't take THEIR words for it either.  Go get the MST3K1 Silver Screen
Edition (TM) this very instant and SEE FOR YOURSELF!!!


Go now.


Aww, c'mon, PLEEEEEEEASE???


The MST3K1 Silver Screen Edition (TM) is a registered trademark of C.E.
Forman Enterprises, Incorporated, a big power-hungry money-grubbing
corporate conglomerate just waiting to suck up the hard-earned cash of
anyone who dares use the title "MST3K1 Silver Screen Edition (TM)" in public
without adding the little (TM) thing on the end.

All references to the MST3K1 Silver Screen Edition (TM) are the property of
C.E. Forman Enterprises, Incorporated, a big power-hungry money-grubbing...
aww, we've been through this already.

The MST3K1 Silver Screen Edition (TM) is available at ftp.gmd.de, the
universe's largest I-F archive.  The MST3K1 Silver Screen Edition (TM) is
distributed as freeware and thus without warranty.  Contrary to its name,
the MST3K1 Silver Screen Edition (TM) has absolutely nothing to do with
silver screens, nor is it associated with anything having a silver hue, or
remotely resembling a screen of any sort, nor does it accurately depict any
type of edition.  The MST3K1 Silver Screen Edition (TM) is for use as
computer software only, and should not be taken internally.  The MST3K1
Silver Screen Edition (TM) has been shown to cause cancer in laboratory rats.
The MST3K1 Silver Screen Edition (TM) makes an excellent topic for a long,
stupid paragraph like this one.



--
C.E. Forman                                      ceforma@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Classic I-F FS/FT in Ye Olde Infocomme Shoppe!  (Mail me for current stock.)
Read XYZZYnews at http://www.interport.net/~eileen/design/xyzzynews.html
Vote I-F in 1996!  Visit http://www.xs4all.nl/~jojo/pcgames.html for info!
"Circle of Armageddon", Vol. 2 of "The Windhall Chronicles" arrives Feb 1997!



From i9717029@wsunix.wsu.edu Wed Aug 21 15:53:59 CED 1996
Article: 16477 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Matthew Murray <i9717029@wsunix.wsu.edu>
Subject: Favorite Infocom Moment
Sender: news@serval.net.wsu.edu (News)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.92.960819112128.31475A-100000@unicorn.it.wsu.edu>
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	Just out of curiosity, what are some of everyone's favorite
Infocom moments?  This can be anything--a point in a game, something
included in the box, or anything else remotely related.  Since I think
Infocom has so many (and other game companies have so few), I think it
would be great to see what everyone thinks is so special about Infocom.  A
few of mine:

(1) The black Infocom poster from 1984.  "A human never stands so tall as
when stooping to help a small computer."  A great, true statement, and a
great poster (hanging on my wall to this day).

(2) The epilogue of A Mind Forever Voyaging.  Sorry, I'm not typing any of
it here.  If you don't know what it is, you'll have to play the game.
Needless to say, it's great--one of the best endings in computer gaming
history.

(3) The back of the Suspended box: "...And you would not awake, so they
promised, until your 500 years had elapsed--barring, of course, the most
dire emergency.  Then, and only then, you would be awakened to save your
planet by strategically manipulating six robots, each of whom perceives
the world differently.  But such a catastrophe, you have been assured,
could not possibly occur.  Good morning."  Classic Infocom humor.

	So, what does anyone else think?

================================================================================
    Matthew A. Murray - mmurray@wsu.edu - http://www.wsu.edu:8000/~i9717029
================================================================================
The Church of Scientology is attempting to suppress free speech on the Internet.
  For more information, and details on how you can protect your rights, visit:

             http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/scientology/home.html
================================================================================



From owls@best.com Wed Aug 21 15:54:37 CED 1996
Article: 16478 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!news.ecrc.de!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!tezcat!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nap.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!owls.vip.best.com!user
From: owls@best.com (J. I. Drasner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Favorite Infocom Moment
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:11:50 -0800
Organization: The Trinity Guardian
Lines: 33
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Excellent question!

The roller coaster and log flume descriptions from Sorcerer. My stomach
actually did a couple of loops while reading the superb description...and
I just loved that this wonderful bit of prose led to absolutely nothing!
It was just there for background. 

The end of Trinity. Talk about your stomach doing loops...actually mine
just sank.

The fate of the castle in Zork Zero (spoilers withheld for those who
haven't gotten there) -- beautiful.

All of the "sample transcripts". I remember every time I'd get a new
Infocom game (after the grey boxes were instituted...yes, I had that great
brown folder for Deadline), the very first thing I'd do was open it up,
bypass all the goodies, and go straight for the sample transcript.

Joey

****************************************************
American Gothic fanatic or just a tourist in Trinity?
Read The Trinity Guardian: http://www.best.com/~owls/AG/
****************************************************
Guildenstern: He's -- melancholy.
Player: Melancholy?
Rosencrantz: Mad.
Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
Cheshire Cat: Oh, you can't help that, we're all mad here.
(From "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern in Wonderland")
****************************************************
Johanna "Joey" Drasner: owls@best.com (San Francisco)
****************************************************


From rglasser@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 21 15:54:48 CED 1996
Article: 16495 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: rglasser@ix.netcom.com(Russell Wain Glasser)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Favorite Infocom Moment
Date: 20 Aug 1996 04:20:37 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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>         Just out of curiosity, what are some of everyone's favorite
> Infocom moments?  This can be anything--a point in a game, something
> included in the box, or anything else remotely related.  Since I
think
> Infocom has so many (and other game companies have so few), I think
it
> would be great to see what everyone thinks is so special about
Infocom.

    One of my favorite moments in getting ANY new Infocom game was
reading through the sample transcript in the package, I guess because
they could afford to be so much more silly and illogical than they
would in a real game.
    I loved the moment in A Mind Forever Voyaging when, having finished
wandering through the nightmarish 2071, I returned to the present and
checked the simulation controller, only to be told that there was now a
simulation available in 2081.  I think my exact words were, "OH MY GOD,
THERE'S MORE???  I don't want to see this..."
    I definitely loved the time travel scenario in Sorcerer.  I had to
think about it a few times before I figured out what had happened. 
(The end of Legend's Timequest, which was of course basically the same
puzzle rehashed, was also terrific.)
    Oh yeah, and also I liked all of Trent's / Tiffany's surprising
resurrections in Leather Goddesses, and the last eight moves of the
game were a major crackup.


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Aug 21 15:55:57 CED 1996
Article: 16475 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Mazes!
Message-ID: <erkyrathDwF4pH.LvB@netcom.com>
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Sender: erkyrath@netcom4.netcom.com

> <Spellbreaker spoilers follow...>

> Bob Reeves wrote:
> >
> > While I'm here I ought to complain about my least favorite puzzle in an
> > Infocom game--how to get to the Outcropping in Spellbreaker.  I had to
> > look at the hintbook for that one, because while I do belong to the "try
> > everything" school of playing, it had never occurred to me to drop the
> > gold box, which is necessary to solve the puzzle.  There are only two
> > reasons to drop anything in an Infocom game:  1. it's useless or you're
> > done with it and 2. you're carrying too many things.  Now in
> > Spellbreaker, 1. the gold box is useful for identifying cubes, so you
> > want to hang onto it and 2. you can keep an almost unlimited number of
> > items in the zipper.  So why would you ever drop the box?  Has anyone
> > else ever thought along these lines?  Am I just repeating a tired
> > criticism?  If so, sorry. :)

I disagree strongly with your reasoning. The statement "There are only two
reasons to drop anything in an Infocom game..." is simply false. A player 
who believes that has fallen into an assumption, and the whole *point* of 
puzzle-situation games is to force you to break your assumptions. I think 
this is a terrific assumption to twist.

I also think it was done badly in Spellbreaker. I agree with the 
following: 

Kory Heath (kheath@mail.1connect.com) wrote:
> My guess is that a good percentage of players have solved the game
> without having any problem with this puzzle at all, simply
> because they were lucky enough to drop the box for some reason
> and then stumble on the connection between the box and those
> "blocked" exits.  You pretty much have to figure this out by
> accident; there's no prior indication that the box has anything
> to do with the exits.  In fact, even in hindsight the
> connection looks pretty contrived.  Why would the exits from
> these elemental rooms, which apparently represent the
> magical foundations of the entire universe, teleport you to this
> mundane little gold box?

(Note this is *not* the same argument as Bob Reeves' statement above.) 

Also note that the gold box isn't really mundane; it is the only object 
in the game which has a specific connection with the cubes, so the 
reasoning is half-assed, not totally un-assed. However, I expect very few 
people figured it out by pure accident. I needed a hint.

Were I programming that situation, I would at least have a greater 
variety of messages when you try to go through the exits. One message 
when the box is tuned wrong; a different one (something Escher-like) if 
the box is tuned right but you're holding it. And it wouldn't hurt if the 
first message was something about being blocked by a half-tangible golden 
wall.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From jswitzer@aimnet.com Thu Aug 22 17:50:52 MET DST 1996
Article: 16538 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jswitzer@aimnet.com (John Switzer)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Favorite Infocom Moment
Date: 20 Aug 1996 09:19:45 -0700
Organization: Aimnet Corporation
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4vcoj1$dsn@shell1.aimnet.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.960819112128.31475A-100000@unicorn.it.wsu.edu> <svenl2u945.fsf@tuna2.Berkeley.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: shell1.aimnet.com

In article <svenl2u945.fsf@tuna2.Berkeley.EDU>,
Rusty Wright  <rusty@tuna2.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Every moment with Floyd was memorable.

Also when you try to zifmia (summon) the Implementers in 
Enchanter. You suddenly see the two programmers appear in
the sky and they say something like "what the heck is this?",
"I don't know, must be a bug," "here, I'll fix it."

Speaking of Enchanter, it looks like Infocom or Activision
edited the hints booklet that's part of Infocom Masterpieces
a bit. There's one question in there about whether Enchanter
is Zork IV. The first set of answers imply definitely not,
and then the next question is "will there be a sequel to 
Enchanter?"

In the original hint book, the answer was "of course, Zork V."
In the revised version, this has become "Sorceror," which is
accurate, but not as funny as the original.
-- 
John Switzer           | Finding an apparent paradox, whether in matters
                       | of faith or science, simply means some of your
jswitzer@aimnet.com    | underlying assumptions are flawed.
	*** Access the Congressional Record at http://thomas.loc.gov ***


From gt5048a@acmex.gatech.edu Thu Aug 22 17:51:15 MET DST 1996
Article: 16528 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: gt5048a@acmex.gatech.edu (Jon A. Preston)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Favorite Infocom Moment
Date: 20 Aug 1996 13:40:49 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
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: reading through the sample transcript in the package, I guess because
: they could afford to be so much more silly and illogical than they
: would in a real game.

They were pretty funny!

My favorite was when I first bought Zork1 and played it.  I had only
played King's Quest before that, and I assumed that all games had pretty
pictures (I was 12 years old!).  So I was pretty upset when I was playing
and no graphics.  Then I discovered the trap door and thoght to myself,
"of course - that was just an intro, this is the real game".  

> D

....

No graphics, but looking back, it was the best thing that could have
happened.  It was months later and many clues (I had to buy the clue book)
before I completed the game.  

And I'm very happy that Zork (or the other Infocom IFs) did not have graphics!

jP

--
----------------- Jon A. Preston  (gt5048a@acme.gatech.edu) -----------------
 "If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit." - John 15:5


From IO20444@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Thu Aug 29 09:45:48 CED 1996
Article: 16725 of rec.games.int-fiction
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Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:43:16 EDT
From: Daphne B <IO20444@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Message-ID: <96241.164316IO20444@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: How good are you folks at these Infocom games
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blahedo@Shamino.quincy.edu (Don Blaheta)
wrote thusly, on  27 Aug 1996 20:14:45 GMT:

>By the same token, one of the *worst* feelings, for which I get even
>more pissed off at authors than for reading the hints for a "stupid"
>solution, is having an epiphanal experience like Andrew describes,
>trying it, and finding it doesn't work. ;)

I just want to say, in this context, that I had a dream about how to
get the one point in SoFar.  I dreamt that on top of the snowy cliff,
I yodeled
> YODEL
and was instantly transported to a grassy, sunlit mountaintop.

   You see here a goat.

(quite possibly the goat from Lost New York, I decided when I woke up)

Perhaps I should also add that I did NOT try this upon waking,
so perhaps it really works.  :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Daphne Brinkerhoff       : Penny for your thoughts, my dear...
io20444@maine.maine.edu  :     -- Marillion


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Aug 29 09:46:16 CED 1996
Article: 16731 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Late-night IF sessions
Message-ID: <erkyrathDwvBtA.7vv@netcom.com>
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Daphne B (IO20444@MAINE.MAINE.EDU) wrote:
> I just want to say, in this context, that I had a dream about how to
> get the one point in SoFar.  I dreamt that on top of the snowy cliff,
> I yodeled
> > YODEL
> and was instantly transported to a grassy, sunlit mountaintop.

>    You see here a goat.

> (quite possibly the goat from Lost New York, I decided when I woke up)

> Perhaps I should also add that I did NOT try this upon waking,
> so perhaps it really works.  

Next version. That's terrific.

> :)

Thanks for dreaming about my game. 

Heh. I remember the time that I figured out how to get the last treasure
in Zork 1. Carry the glass bottle into the small passages around the
Mirror Room, and the iridium vapor condenses inside, plating the bottle... 

It really made sense until I woke up.

Anyone else?

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From vuorinen@mopo.cc.lut.fi Fri Aug 30 10:41:25 CED 1996
Article: 16764 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: vuorinen@mopo.cc.lut.fi (Mikko Vuorinen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Late-night IF sessions
Date: 29 Aug 1996 13:59:43 +0300
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erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) writes:

>Thanks for dreaming about my game. 

>Heh. I remember the time that I figured out how to get the last treasure
>in Zork 1. Carry the glass bottle into the small passages around the
>Mirror Room, and the iridium vapor condenses inside, plating the bottle... 

>It really made sense until I woke up.

>Anyone else?

I've dreamed about Christminster twice. The first time I remember I kept 
looking up stuff in various books. The second dream was much more 
interesting, and it included en egg, a sewer grating on the roof and 
myself hitting a man with a stick. I can't remember the details, but I 
enjoyed it very much. Oh, and there was a ship too.

But then, about two weeks ago I dreamed that I was playing a game set in 
a theatre. I remember getting up and starting to explore. There were many 
locked doors, and I knew that they all were red herrings and I couldn't 
unlock them in the game. But then I had an interesting though: what if I 
typed "rezrov door"? It worked! I could open every single door and 
explore the areas you're not supposed to be able to enter. I had such fun 
entering the toilets and various rooms. I had to escape from the janitor 
several times. Then I went outside, and naturally I could enter any door 
just by rezroving it. The rest I can't remember, but anyway that was my 
dream of the year.

-- 
  ))))      ((((     ********************************
 ))  OO   `oo'(((    *   E-mail:  vuorinen@lut.fi   *   "Yes."
 6   (_)   (  (((    *   IRC:     Dilbon            *   - William Shakespeare
 `____c    8__/(((   ********************************


From aultman@koala.scott.net Mon Sep  2 10:17:32 CED 1996
Article: 16815 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: aultman@koala.scott.net
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Favorite Infocom Moment
Date: 25 Aug 1996 22:15:47 -0500
Organization: Scott Network Services, Inc.
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In article <4vndu7$vo3@data.csw.net>, Glen Smith <ksmith@CSWNET.COM> wrote:
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.92.960819112128.31475A-100000@unicorn.it.wsu.edu>, 
>i9717029@wsunix.wsu.edu says...
>>
>>        Just out of curiosity, what are some of everyone's favorite
>>Infocom moments?  This can be anything--a point in a game, something
>>included in the box, or anything else remotely related.  Since I think
>>Infocom has so many (and other game companies have so few), I think it
>>would be great to see what everyone thinks is so special about Infocom.  
>
>

So I've already posted on this once, but I have another one I thought of.

C64 players will know this one. I don't know about other platforms.

Situation: You've been stuck on a puzzle for a while, trying different
  things to no avail.

Action: You have a new idea of something to try and type it in.

Response: The machine pauses a seecond, then HITS THE FLOPPY DRIVE!
   You KNOW you've done something right when the 1541 fires up, even
   before you read the result, because the alternative (you die) has
   that distinct shuddering sound. Success and failure have different
   sounds.

Then there is that pleasant surprise when success occasionally makes a
sound that makes you THINK you have died, but you really didn't.

I really miss that.

I have a whole philosophy of why IF on a slower machine like the C64
was more enjoyable than the quick response I get from playing on a PC,
but that is for a different thread at a different time.

That is all,

Joe



From ennead@teleport.com Fri Sep  6 12:45:22 CED 1996
Article: 16936 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: ennead@teleport.com (Ennead)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Late-night IF session
Date: 4 Sep 1996 21:12:41 GMT
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
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: Stephen Granade wrote:
: > 
: > It's interesting seeing how many people have dreamed of solutions to
: > Infocom puzzles.  I remember being in the throes of HHGTTG and wondering
: > what the teeninsy writing on the breadboard was.  Later that night I
: > dreamed that I had taken the tea substitute and put a drop of it on
: > the writing, magnifying it to the point of readability.
: > 
: > Stephen


Possible Z0 Spoiler...


















	While seriously stuck on the blueprint/hardhat puzzle in Zork 0, I
had a dream about "The Dream of Rhonabwy," which is a minor branch of the
Mabinogion.

	It was a somewhat recursive dream, of course, as the Welsh story
is itself a dream.  In it, Rhonabwy comes across Arthur and Owain, playing
chess with one another.  There is a battle going on in the background,
which mimics the conflict on the chess board.  Ravens keep attacking
people, and whenever Arthur or Owein ask the other to call off the ravens,
the response is always a sly, "It is your move."

	Anyway, I woke up the next morning, wondering why on earth I
should be dreaming the Dream of Rhonabwy.  (I'm not a Welsh scholar or
anything like that, and it had been _years_ since I'd read the
Mabinogion -- so if I've misremembered the story, I hope that any genuine 
scholars of Welsh myth out there will forgive me.)  For some reason, the
dream was just *haunting* me.  I couldn't get it out of my head.  It had
that nagging, "I'm trying to tell you something, idiot" feel to it that
significant dreams often do have.

	Then I put together the images of "chessboard," "knights," and
(most importantly) BIRDS... 

	And I ran to the computer, screaming at my housemate to get off of
it and let me on, NOW, and solved the puzzle.

	It was very weird indeed, and when I explained it to my
housemates, they all looked at me funny.


						-- Sarah


From msadams@pcii.net Fri Sep  6 12:45:43 CED 1996
Article: 16949 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: msadams@pcii.net (Scott Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: The Return of Scott Adams
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 00:23:53 GMT
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illusory@execpc.com (Colm McCarthy) wrote:


>>My question is: Why SORCERER OF CLAYMORGUE CASTLE ? - Don't get me wrong,
>>this was my first Scott Adams game (back on the old C64) and I thought it
>>was very good, even if I found it devilishly difficult. But I can now play
>>it on my Amiga and PC under both ScottFree and Frotz (I used Scott2Zip to
>>covert the data file to Inform format) and also by using both my Spectrum
>>and C64 emulators, again on both Amiga and PC. So why do we need another
>>version of the same story. Please write something new Scott.

Actually what you are playing are my old 2 word to a sentence games.
My new release will be full text. But then most people end up playing
using two words anyway! But what the heck.

>Because many people have not played Sorceror, which is one of Adams'
>best games.  And again, it's the author's own business.  Perhaps he's
>easing himself back into writing...it's been a long, long time, after
>all (too long if you ask me).  I look forward to new Adams games too,
>but Sorceror will more than suffice for now.

Thanks for the compliments. Yes I'm going to give it a try again. I
hope people aren't too dissappointed. But time will tell.

>Christ, with the grief Adams is getting over this (and I assume full
>responsibility for this.  Please kill me now) it's a wonder that he's
>even bothering at all.

>Please take your thumbs out of your arses, people.

Hey no problem, really. Anyway to further confuse the issue I've
decided on releasing "Return to Pirated Island" first. Call me fickle!
:>

Scott Adams (Not Dilbert, Adventure!) 
msadams@pcii.net
http://users.mwci.net/~msadams/index.htm

Scott Adams (Not Dilbert, Adventure!) 
msadams@pcii.net
http://users.mwci.net/~msadams/index.htm




From kinder@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk Thu Sep 12 13:59:41 CED 1996
Article: 17101 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: kinder@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk (David Kinder)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Level 9 Interpreter released
Date: 10 Sep 1996 11:08:52 GMT
Organization: Oxford University
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Nulldogma (nulldogma@aol.com) wrote:
: Can't say as that I'm overwhelmed by any of the games I've tried yet,
: though. Does anyone have recommendations for their favorites?

Sacrilege! :-)

The Level 9 games are, I think, somewhat like the Scott Adams games in that
they're more fun for those of us who used to play them in the 1980s. If you
come to them cold, then you'll find them rather terse compared to Infocom and
the modern-day games around here. Level 9 also had a habit of putting a nasty
puzzle in at the start (Who thought the opening puzzle in Return to Eden was
fair?).

On the other hand, a lot of their games are extremely well thought out and
great fun (IMHO). There's a lot more to them than a Scott Adams game (no flames
if you disagree :-), yet they didn't use *much* more memory (usually about 32K
for the game data). Snowball is a good one to start with, though without the
packaging you might need the odd hint to get you going.

Now, who wants to write a Magnetic Scrolls interpreter? :-) :-)

David



From richard@manor.york.ac.uk Thu Sep 12 17:42:49 CED 1996
Article: 17105 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: rgc2@york.ac.uk (Richard G Clegg)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Level 9 Interpreter released
Date: 11 Sep 1996 11:25:28 GMT
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David Kinder (kinder@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk) wrote:

: The Level 9 games are, I think, somewhat like the Scott Adams games in that
: they're more fun for those of us who used to play them in the 1980s. If you
: come to them cold, then you'll find them rather terse compared to Infocom and
: the modern-day games around here. Level 9 also had a habit of putting a nasty
: puzzle in at the start (Who thought the opening puzzle in Return to Eden was
: fair?).

  The whole Silicon Dreams Trilogy was magnificent.  Alas Return to
Eden was the one I didn't finish.  Then, when I came back to it years
later I couldn't remember how to do the openning puzzle....  In fact
as soon as I get the L9 interpreter up and running on my unix box I'll
have another go at it...  it certainly was a bitch tho'  I can remember
spending about 5 hours in the same 5 or 6 locations cursing "I could solve
this when I was 16 for godsakes"

--
Richard G. Clegg      There ain't no getting round getting round
Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York.
email: richard@manor.york.ac.uk             Eschew Obfustication
www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html



From 72630.304@CompuServe.COM Wed Sep 18 10:36:23 CED 1996
Article: 17252 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Graeme Cree <72630.304@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: To the author of MST3K1
Date: 18 Sep 1996 04:22:40 GMT
Organization: CompuServe, Inc. (1-800-689-0736)
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Message-ID: <51nteg$6kq$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com>

     Yes, I reviewed Electrabot in SPAG several issues back.  It's pretty
bad, but not nearly as bad as Detective.
     As far as difficulty goes, it is very similar to Detective, in that you
must follow a preset path, and automatically win when you get to the end, if
you avoid the rooms of instant death along the way.  Unlike Detective, it 
has some actual puzzles, although these are strictly limited to figuring out
what weapons will kill the monsters you meet along the way.  One or two of
these can actually be reasoned out (salt kills slug, for example), but most
are completely randomised.  
     It might make a decent MiSTing, but it isn't as bad as Detective.  It
hasn't got some of the whacked out dialogue of Detective (i.e. 
"You are surprised, but used to it." or "You can't make me talk cuz it don't
matter to me.")  Also, with a name like Woody Hunt, I'd be willing to bet that
the author was around 12 or 13, and the writing seems to bear that out.  
     Bottom line, it could very well make a good MST episode, but it's kind 
of borderline.


From avrom@Turing.Stanford.EDU Sat Sep 21 01:10:23 CED 1996
Article: 17301 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: avrom@Turing.Stanford.EDU (Avrom Faderman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: So Far question
Date: 19 Sep 1996 01:03:05 -0700
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Thanks to those that helped on this.  The nudges I got were just what
I needed to solve the puzzle and eventually finish the game.

This was, I thought, a phenomenal game.  The author is due very hearty
congratulations, on prose style, appearance of world-size (the game
contains enough interesting and well-thought out "red herring" objects
and locations to give the feel of a world much bigger than it is), and
plotting.

One of the people who responded to me actually didn't at first
understand how I was getting through [dank,dark]--it turns out I
was doing it the wrong way, that is, a way that makes it impossible to
win the game.  I thought my solution was kind of neat, although wrong,
so I'm going to include a spoiler for it below (although, I guess,
it's not really a spoiler for the game, since if you solve the puzzle
this way you won't be able to win).  Below that, I'm going to include
a couple of comments and questions about the endgame, which I know was
a matter for some speculation here a couple months back.  There will
be no puzzle spoilers in that, but some possible plot spoilers, so
those who don't want to know how the game ends should skip that part.

But first, in the tradition of Infocom's "Have you tried..." InvisiClues,
<spoiler, of sorts, for [dank, dark]>

























Have you ever tried the following tack to get rid of the chord in
[dank, dark]?

Lead the chord to an out-of-the-way place.  Turn on a light source.
Make sure you leave the room while it is lit, and never return to it
when it's dark.  The chord can only latch back onto you if you're in a
dark room with it.

Of course, to solve any other of the puzzles in [dank, dark], you'll
need to be in dark rooms.  This is fine--just leave the light source
in another room whenever you need to solve a puzzle.

Of course, you can't take the light source out of [dank, dark]--the
exit won't be visible as long as you have it.  As you'll need the
light source later in the game, this isn't the right way to defeat the
chord.  (That, of course, would be another spoiler, and a more serious
one.)

And now,
<plot spoilers for the endgame>

























One thing I remember from a few months ago, although of course it made
no sense to me then as I hadn't played the game, and so I've likely
forgotten a lot of details of the discussion, was some debate as to
whether the black-haired woman at the end was Aessa.  The main reason
offered for answering the question "no" was that Aessa had copper
hair.  This is convincing enough, but I think there are more important
reasons for assuming she's not Aessa.

1)  The game is, after all, "an interactive catharsis."  A game that
ends with you abandoning a relationship that's clearly going nowhere
is a catharsis.  A game that ends with you continuing to chase after
it is not.  It ends in a situation too similar to its beginning.

2)  Consider the game's differing ways of fleshing out "yes" and "no"
answers at the end.

"Yes"--"How can I deny you?  There is nothing to forgive."
"No"--"How can I ever forgive you?  There is nothing to forgive."

"There is nothing to forgive" occurs in both versions.  So I think the
_force_ of it must be different.

In the first version, you forgive Aessa, claiming that there was
"nothing to forgive," i.e., she HADN'T DESTROYED anything.  You
presumably try to take her back, and "All is loosed and undone"--that
is, the entire game is undone.  Nothing has happened.  Nothing has
been learned. 

In the second, you refuse to forgive Aessa, claiming that there was
"nothing to forgive," i.e., she hadn't destroyed ANYTHING (note the
change of emphasis).  You realize that there was never anything WITH
Aessa, finally manage to accept this, and (and here's where the
black-haired woman comes in) try to move on.  That's why this counts
as winning;  the catharsis is complete.

So close, and yet... the meeting was just an appearance.  Sometimes
lunar conjunctions happen;  sometimes they don't, even if they seem
like they're supposed to.  And then the moons drift away again.

Of course, this isn't what happened in "Rito and Imita."  But that
was just a play.  And Rito would have lost the game.

OK, so much for my attempts to be deep.  One question remains:

If you _do_ forgive Aessa (assuming I'm correct that it's Aessa you're
forgiving), one of the things described is the sculpture in the park
collapsing:  columns "finally" bending towards one another;  wires
going slack.  What do people think this is supposed to mean?
Particularly the "finally" part?

	-Avrom



From mol@marvin.df.lth.se Thu Sep 26 23:06:04 CED 1996
Article: 17460 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!mol
From: mol@marvin.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Need Help with Dunjin (Big Surprise)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 21:05:17 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <52er6d$ma9@news.lth.se>
References: <dseybert-2609960911120001@pit-pa1-06.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: marvin.df.lth.se

In article <dseybert-2609960911120001@pit-pa1-06.ix.netcom.com>,
Your Name <dseybert@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Well, over the last month I've made considerable progress in Dunjin (this
>is one of those games that, for no reason I can determine, keep me playing
>them despite a high frustration level). But now I'm good and truly stuck
>at several points. 
>
>1) What's with the painting rooms? I've examined all the paintings,
>visited them in order, tried taking them; all with little or no results. 
>I suspect the rooms have something to do with the magic bean but I'll be
>danged it I can figure out what it is.  

What you want from the painting rooms is a piece of information. Have
you read Tom's diary yet?

>2) The well. I've jumped in, read the magic word, got the stuff in the
>well and used the genie to get out. But later I discover that I'll need
>the genie to escape the dragon. What am I doing wrong?

There is one more method of getting out, but I suspect that you
haven't got enough information yet to find it. (Note: it has nothing to 
do with the pictures :-)).

>3) How do I get past the dwarf in the dwarf mine. I've discovered that
>"Grubbdrub" spoken backwards has quite an effect on the lad but as far as
>his name goes...

Again, you need more information. One important piece of info is only
revealed if you escape the well in the correct way. Another has to do
with - no, I won't say it , it will be too easy... :-)

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se)


From maga@vetbio.unizh.ch Fri Sep 27 14:32:52 CED 1996
Article: 17471 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!swidir.switch.ch!scsing.switch.ch!rzunews.unizh.ch!NewsWatcher!user
From: maga@vetbio.unizh.ch (Giovanni Maga)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Need Help with Dunjin (Big Surprise)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:41:21 -0500
Organization: University of Zurich Irchel- Biochemistry
Lines: 33
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References: <dseybert-2609960911120001@pit-pa1-06.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.60.120.11

In article <dseybert-2609960911120001@pit-pa1-06.ix.netcom.com>,
dseybert@popd.ix.netcom.com (Your Name) wrote:


> I suspect the rooms have something to do with the magic bean but I'll be
> danged it I can figure out what it is.  

They just tell you that there IS a magic bean and what it does...now,
where could you use your bean? A bit of greenthumb and you'll get to a
place you couldn't before...

 
> 2) The well. I've jumped in, read the magic word, got the stuff in the
> well and used the genie to get out. But later I discover that I'll need
> the genie to escape the dragon. What am I doing wrong?

I can tell you that you have first to plant that bean in the right place,
then you'll see...

> 
> 3) How do I get past the dwarf in the dwarf mine. I've discovered that
> "Grubbdrub" spoken backwards has quite an effect on the lad but as far as
> his name goes...

Have you been at the end of the mining caves? Have you read about what
that dwarf DOES NOT like? Now, you need a couple of items to disturb him
and THEN to use the magic word...what these two objects are will become
obvious after:
-you'll see the message on the wall of the last cave
-you'll plant that bean
(you see...most of your troubles come from that damned bean...better go
and find it and then use it in the proper place!).
Happy Adventuring, Giovanni.


From timbuktu@wpi.edu Sat Sep 28 10:33:07 CED 1996
Article: 17495 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: George Caswell <timbuktu@adamant.res.wpi.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Planetfall Update Again
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 01:30:09 -0400
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 81
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References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.960926114203.25717B-100000@adamant.res.wpi.edu> <52eilo$h5r@koala.scott.net> <Pine.LNX.3.95.960927010821.26858E-100000@adamant.res.wpi.edu> <52gpk2$hh8@kodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM>
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On 27 Sep 1996, Matthew Daly wrote:

> timbuktu@wpi.edu writes:
> > 
> >   I've said in the past that Infocom is probably Activision's only
> >adventure gaming 'heritage'...  but I've gotten a bit tired of them taking
> >old games and making completely non-contiguous sequels.  
> 
> I think that Infocom did that to itself more than Activision has
> so far.  Beyond Zork, Zork Zero, heck even Stationfall were 
> derivative works trying to "cash in" on a legacy series or work
> with no real hook to tie it in.  
> 
   Not derivative works, bona-fide sequels.  Zork is a special case, not
being contiguous in the first place..  but I can't really completely
disagree with you about the last two Infocom Zorks, except that they were
in the same style as the originals, at least.  Stationfall was a sequel,
IMHO a good one, if a bit confusing.  One of the biggest problems in the
Activision sequels, I think, is a lack of flexibility in what you can do.
(LGOP2 and RTZ had other basic problems, too, like LGOP2's need for you to
be somewhere after a certain set of puzzles have been solved if you want
the story to progress...) 

> >Face it, today's
> >graphic adventure is a completely different genre than text adventure--
> >sequelizing the old text adventures into graphic games makes (IMHO implied
> >throughout post) the game poor, because it's trying to be something that
> >can't work within its genre, or makes a good game which, because it was
> >made to be a good graphic game, is nothing like its 'prequels'.  
> 
> I don't see this as much as you do, I guess.  Graphic games are
> potentially weaker than well-written text adventures because pasting 
> an image on the screen takes away the power of the imagination,
> but to be frank I felt more like I was "in" Zork Nemesis than
> Zork I, where I can't even keep the map straight in my mind.
> 
   That, and, since everything you can do has to be rendered onscreen,
there are fewer possibilities of what you can do in the game.  The user
can never do the unexpected.

> Honestly, the Planetfall that I'd really like to see in graphics
> mode is the ORIGINAL Planetfall, because I think that would clear
> up so many of the questions that we are asking ourselves here.
> If the story of a text adventure were placed into a GUI, would
> it be as excellent?  If the inventory management were done as

   Current GUI's don't implement the same amount of stuff as a good text
game.  And translating a text game, IMHO, would be suicide for the graphic
game.  Graphic games have their strengths, and they're definately
different than those of text games.  Trying to implement a game in one
format in another would most likely create a terrible game.  Which is what
I've been trying to say--  you -can- make a good graphic game, just don't
try to believe it has too much in common with a text adventure you might
associate it with.. 

> well as it is in text (currently not done yet, IMO), then I think
> it might even be greater!
> 
   I tend to believe playing catch-up with text adventures is the worst
possible move for people making a graphic game.  Good graphic games can be
made, but the genres are so different from each other that what makes a
good game in either is not what makes a good game in the other.

   Which is why I think Activision's Planetfall is a bad idea.

> >Quake, with a robot sidekick, and less guns, in this case.
> 
> Nah, it's Pacman with a less regular map and more diverse ghosts
> and powerups. :-)
> 
   Oh, don't start that again.  I say it's Quake because the engine is
probably similar to Quake's.

....T...I...M...B...U...K...T...U... ____________________________________
.________________ _/>_ _______......[George Caswell, CS '99. 4 more info ]
<___ ___________// __/<___   /......[    http://www.wpi.edu/~timbuktu    ]
...//.<>._____..<_  >./ ____/.......[ Member LnL+SOMA, sometimes artist, ]
..//./>./    /.__/ /./ <___________.[writer, builder. Sysadmin of adamant]
.//.</.</</</.<_ _/.<_____________/.[____________________________________]
</.............</...................



From timbuktu@wpi.edu Mon Sep 30 12:43:42 CED 1996
Article: 17551 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!bigboote.WPI.EDU!adamant.res.wpi.edu!timbuktu
From: George Caswell <timbuktu@adamant.res.wpi.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Leather Goddesses 2 ??
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 03:41:12 -0400
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.960930032640.2935H-100000@adamant.res.wpi.edu>
References: <324F3614.4369@iserv.net>
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On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Paul Harker wrote:

> I've heard occasional mention of a sequel to Leather Goddesses of Phobos 
> (referred to as LGOP2) but don't remember the title. I did play the 
> original, which I now have again on my Masterpieces CD. But I've never
> heard anything about the sequel. Was it a text adventure? Was it any
> good?
> Is it still available, and if so where?

   No, No, and No.  If you've played thru the original LGOP you -have-
heard about LGOP2--  it's mentioned right at the end.  It's called Leather
Goddesses of Phobos II:  Gas pump girls meet the pulsating
inconvenience from Planet X.  I've heard it was a planned and cancelled
project at Infocom..  I don't know about that.  Activision -did- produce a
game they called LGOP2, done by Meretzky...  (I bought it recently for $2.
The guy who sold it to me can now get that damn bicycling paperboy off his
ass) it was done in 256-color VGA, graphics pretty good actually, but no
animation, poor interface, bad story and a lot of 'puzzles' based on the
tedium of figuring out where you're supposed to go.  (Especially after
you've done everything you need to do-  you need to meet up with another
person to talk about what you've found...  not as though there's any cue
that you're supposed to seek them out at that exact time, they just appear
in that location at a certain point, and you need to go there once they
do.  And there's another part where you have to wait and do absolutely
nothing, just literally wait in real time while a spaceship travels to
another planet...  The movement controls were somewhat like RTZ.  It was
full-talkie on disk (15MB total) with extremely small dialogue.  There's
no way to lose, and puzzles are obtuse at times, never terribly difficult,
really.
   And, of course, there's the sex.  In the original LGOP the sex could
almost make sense in context.  In LGOP2 you can basically do anyone of the
opposite sex, anywhere, with just a few exceptions... strangers, enemies,
miscellaneous extraneous characters, etc.  (As I recall, in LGOP you could
get some after, or for, certain puzzles...  talk about positive
re-inforcement...  <g>)  

....T...I...M...B...U...K...T...U... ____________________________________
.________________ _/>_ _______......[George Caswell, CS '99. 4 more info ]
<___ ___________// __/<___   /......[    http://www.wpi.edu/~timbuktu    ]
...//.<>._____..<_  >./ ____/.......[ Member LnL+SOMA, sometimes artist, ]
..//./>./    /.__/ /./ <___________.[writer, builder. Sysadmin of adamant]
.//.</.</</</.<_ _/.<_____________/.[____________________________________]
</.............</...................



From daly@PPD.Kodak.COM Thu Oct  3 14:07:38 CED 1996
Article: 17602 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!mn6.swip.net!solace!eru.mt.luth.se!news.algonet.se!news.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.charm.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!news.kodak.com!newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM!daly
From: daly@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Planetfall Update Again
Date: 30 Sep 1996 17:58:54 GMT
Organization: Eastman Kodak Company
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <52p1ou$38b@kodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.960927010821.26858E-100000@adamant.res.wpi.edu> <52gpk2$hh8@kodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM> <Pine.LNX.3.95.960928010625.28756C-100000@adamant.res.wpi.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: titan_gw.kodak.com

timbuktu@wpi.edu writes:
>On 27 Sep 1996, Matthew Daly wrote:
>
>   Not derivative works, bona-fide sequels.  Zork is a special case, not
>being contiguous in the first place..  but I can't really completely
>disagree with you about the last two Infocom Zorks, except that they were
>in the same style as the originals, at least.  

I'll need a definition of "style", especially pertaining to BZ.
I don't get any sense that it ties back to the original Z1-3.
Stodgy interface, no visualization, no humor, random combat?
I'll go out on a very thin, unpopular limb and claim that RTZ
fit the "classic Zork" motif better than BZ did!  (We all have
our own views of what makes a game a Zork game, I'm sure.)

>Stationfall was a sequel,
>IMHO a good one, if a bit confusing.  One of the biggest problems in the
>Activision sequels, I think, is a lack of flexibility in what you can do.
>(LGOP2 and RTZ had other basic problems, too, like LGOP2's need for you to
>be somewhere after a certain set of puzzles have been solved if you want
>the story to progress...) 

Never found LGOP2 ... no loss from what I hear.  I don't remember
RTZ, and it doesn't run on my Penty. =(

Activision's loss was in the lack of flexibility in what you could
TRY to do ... for the most part, the solutions to Infocom games
didn't require bizarre verbs at all, at least not for the most
part.  

>> Honestly, the Planetfall that I'd really like to see in graphics
>> mode is the ORIGINAL Planetfall, because I think that would clear
>> up so many of the questions that we are asking ourselves here.
>> If the story of a text adventure were placed into a GUI, would
>> it be as excellent?  If the inventory management were done as
>
>   Current GUI's don't implement the same amount of stuff as a good text
>game.  And translating a text game, IMHO, would be suicide for the graphic
>game.  Graphic games have their strengths, and they're definately
>different than those of text games.  Trying to implement a game in one
>format in another would most likely create a terrible game.  Which is what
>I've been trying to say--  you -can- make a good graphic game, just don't
>try to believe it has too much in common with a text adventure you might
>associate it with.. 

I'll check Planetfall again, but at the moment, I'm only recalling
spinning dials, putting fromitz boards into systems, and other things
like that -- nothing that couldn't be done in a GUI.  You can't imagine
wild unorthodox verbs to try on objects, but PFall wasn't that
sort of game anyway.

-Matthew
--
Matthew Daly             I don't buy everything I read ... I haven't
daly@ppd.kodak.com       even read everything I've bought.

My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, of course.


From rwredr@earthlink.net Mon Oct 14 10:03:18 CED 1996
Article: 17904 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!swidir.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!nntp.earthlink.net!usenet
From: Raymond Rowe <rwredr@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: "take it" in Zork II
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 01:39:23 -0400
Organization: Earthlink Network, Inc.
Lines: 27
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Dean Thomas Sebastian Carrano wrote:
> 
> _Next Generation_ magazine recently came out with an issue that listed
> the top 100 videogames of all time.  Trinity was #100, A Mind Forever
> Voyaging was #66, the Zork series was #38, and The Lurking Horror
> (described as "the best adventure game of all time") was #24.  A weird
> list; Super Mario 64, which virtually no U.S. consumer had ever played at
> the time the magazine came out, was ranked #1.  Anyway, under "memorable
> moments" in the Zork series, it says "using 'take it' in Zork II to win
> with only one treasure".  I checked the bug list, and this wasn't there;
> anyone know how this works?  TIA.
> 
> Dean Carrano - dcarrano@wesleyan.edu


Give a treasure to the demon and then type "take it" and you will have 
the treasure back in your invintory. You can keep giving the same 
treasure to the demon over and over again until you win the game. 

The black sphere counts as a treasure in the game and you can type "take 
it" after putting it on the pentagram and give it to the demon. This way 
you can even win with no treasures. If you give the demon the black 
sphere plus all the real treasures, you can win the game with 402 out of 
400 points. 

This bug worked in the first release of the Apple ][ version of Zork 2. 
It might have been fixed in later versions.


From jbarlow@ipass.net Wed Oct 16 09:59:35 CED 1996
Article: 18000 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jbarlow@ipass.net (Joe Barlow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Infidel  (July 1984 article, Computer Games magazine)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 02:00:04 GMT
Organization: IPass.net
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82


        {While thumbing through some old computer magazines, I came
across a column called "One on One" in the magazine "Computer Games"
(published in the early 80s).  This column usually reviewed two games
of a similar genre and gave an objective comparison of the two.  The
following is from the July/August 1984 issue of the magazine.}


INFIDEL (Infocom) vs SANDS OF EGYPT (Datasoft)
Reviewed by Michael Blanchet
Typed in by Joe Barlow

        How different can two games about a search for lost Egyptian
pyramids be?  Very.  One is rewarding, the other frustrating.  One is
engrossing, the other dehumanizing and rude.  In a word, INFIDEL is
fun, and SANDS OF EGYPT isn't.
        Despite the fact that INFIDEL is all-text, there's no lack of
graphics.  By providing text descriptions for your interpretation,
Infocom lets _you_ supply the pictures.  Your mind isn't limited by
the graphics capabilities of your computer.  This leads to a vivid
game that's enjoyable whether you solve it or not.
        In the game's opening scene, you're an archeologist who awakes
and finds that disgruntled workers have deserted you in the middle of
the Sahara: "The stillness seems to enhance the eerie quality of the
desert, the feeling of being truly alone...."  The prose is
descriptive, often funny, and realistic enough to pass for a pulp
novel.  The game's parser (which interprets the commands you type in)
is enormous, with a vocabulary of over 600 words compared to SANDS'
100.  They include adjectives and other parts of speech, not just
nouns and verbs.
        A navigation box helps you get your bearings while searching
for the pyramid.  If you wander too far into the desert, you'll
witness some hilarious hallucinations, brought on by heat stroke.
Inside the tomb, you'll be confronted with perplexing puzzles that are
typical of adventure games.  But INFIDEL offers a new kind of clue:
Egyptian hieroglyphics, in the form of characters like #, ! and
others.  You have to decipher most of them (a partial translation left
by a previous explorer gets you started) in order to make real
progress in the game.  The aforementioned sense of solitude is
accentuated inside the pyramid, because you're all alone in this game,
unlike others from Infocom.  There are no characters like PLANETFALL's
Floyd or ZORK's Thief to interact with.
        The packaging bursts with witty and covertly helpful support
materials.  You'll get a tongue-in-cheek instruction booklet (cleverly
presented as an adventurer's magazine), various maps, and an unmailed
letter whose contents belie the serious nature of your situation.
        In SANDS, you're lost, and I mean lost in every sense of the
word: up the Nile without a paddle.  The documentation tells little
more than how to load the game.  The section called "Strategy" carries
on with the usual nauseating, contrived preamble about how and why you
are here.
        The "here" here is also the desert.  Animated graphics show
sand swirling across the desert in the top half of the screen, while
text below reads "You are lost in the desert... you are thirsty."
Move in any direction and you're treated to the same bleak picture.
Move 30 times in the same direction and you might stumble across a
shovel, but otherwise SANDS doesn't offer the variety of Infidel's
desert.
        Growing desperate, I consulted the instruction booklet, this
time under the heading "Hints."  Hint #1: "If you see something
interesting in the picture or read something intriguing in the text,
you can always GO there." Yes, _you_ might find something interesting,
but the computer won't always agree with you.  I resent it when a
computer does the looking and judging for me.  Hint #2 wasn't helpful
either, telling me to type "Help."  The game then countered with a
cryptic clue: "Danger lurks at every turn."  Thanks for reminding me.
        Compared to INFIDEL, SANDS is obnoxious.  The command cursor,
for example, is followed by "WELL?"  It's as if an unspoken voice is
prodding you to "Get a move on, dummy!"  According to the plot, you're
no dummy, but Lord Charles Buckingham III.  A character of such lofty
credentials would have been more at home in INFIDEL.  Here he's a
bumbling idiot.
        SANDS is not without merit.  The animated graphics outclass
those generated by most adventures of this type.  But even animated
graphics don't compare to INFIDEL's prose, and the better choice is
obvious in this case.

        {As a footnote, in the same issue, another ONE ON ONE compared
AZTEC and the original CASTLE WOLFENSTEIN, giving them both rave
reviews.}

        In the same issue, listed under the TOP TEN SOFTWARE SELLERS
for that month, Zork I was rated at #2 and Deadline was at #10.  The
same issue also contained the 1984 SOFTWARE HALL OF FAME.  Some items
of interest from that section:  Planetfall was voted Honorable Mention
for Game of the Year, and it also won the Outstanding All-Text
Adventure category (Enchanter and Suspended both received honorable
mention in that category.)  Penguin's The Quest was voted best graphic
adventure.  And just for the record, Pitfall II: Lost Caverns was
voted Best Action game.

        (Ah, that brings back memories....)



Joe Barlow
jbarlow@ipass.net
"Zorkers do it under the rug..."




From baf@max.tiac.net Wed Oct 16 10:00:04 CED 1996
Article: 17991 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!news.ibm.net.il!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!max.tiac.net!baf
From: baf@max.tiac.net (Carl Muckenhoupt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Recent IF...
Date: 15 Oct 96 21:12:29 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
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notphil@aol.com (NotPhil) writes:

>Ben Fierce <sfierce@op.net> wrote:

>> [ . . . ] what is Baf's guide?

>It's a collection of capsule reviews of games on the IF-archive.
>http://www.tiac.net/users/baf/if-guide.html  It looks like the ratings are
>based mainly on the programming language the author used, but it's still
>very useful.

Well, in a way, the ratings *are* based partly on the programming language
the author used.  That is, the parser and the general look-and-feel are a
large factor in determining what rating I give it, and these are largely
invariant for a given language.  But the correlation (which I find alarmingly
strong) is also a matter of history.

Adventure games have generally gotten better over time, partly due to better 
technology, partly due to the lessons the years have taught us about design.
In the late 1980's, the typical amateur text game pulled off a BBS rated
what I now label as three stars.  And, in the staggering majority of cases,
it was written with AGT.  More recently, a game must be four-star material
to receive serious attention.  And very few new games are written in
anything other than TADS and Inform these days.  As our standards have
changed, so has the dominant language.

-- 
Carl Muckenhoupt              | Text Adventures are not dead!
baf@tiac.net                  | Read rec.[arts|games].int-fiction to see
http://www.tiac.net/users/baf | what you're missing!


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Oct 17 10:22:54 CED 1996
Article: 18059 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Look vs examine vs search
Message-ID: <erkyrathDzC1u9.4Cz@netcom.com>
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Claudia M. Gohr (cgohr@post.its.mcw.edu) wrote:
> I have been playing IF for a while now and this thought just occured to me,
> since when do players need to search everything?  It used to be that when
> entering a room, one could look around to survey the scene and then examine
> particular objects and the significance of the object was obvious.  Lately,
> though, a simple examine will just not do.  Now you have to search the
> object in order to determine its' significance. 

Well, which games do you mean?

The Inform library applies subtle psychological leverage: "search" is 
equivalent for "look in" for containers / supporters, and prints "You 
find nothing of interest" otherwise. (I may have missed some cases, but 
that's the idea.)

I think this is fine. "search" should denote looking inside things, or
through things, or out of things. ("look through" also maps to "search",
so it's reasonable that "look through window" and "look through keyhole"
are different from just "examine window" and "examine keyhole." But maybe
for the window they'd be the same after all. I have a certain idea of what
"examination" means; "x window" means looking through the window as well
as at it. But "x keyhole" is iffy. It depends very much on the scene. Is
the player already thinking of peering through keyholes, or should it be a
moment of revelation when he thinks of doing so?)

> I don't know about the rest
> of you but when I think of 'search', I picture myself lookin for something
> in particular, ie. searching a house for a weapon used to commit a crime.  I
> expect when I examine an object that the hidden compartment would be made
> visible and if I don't see it, it's not there, I don't expect to have to
> search the item as well.  What do the rest of you think?

If the object is *not* a container -- I mean not *obviously* a container 
-- then I agree. "examine" and "search" should do the same thing; both 
should reveal the hidden button, or compartment, or whatever. (If it's a 
compartment, then we can revert to the "look in" meaning of search, once 
it's open.)

For a pile of debris, I expect "search" and "examine" to do the same 
thing. 

Now if you're in a time-critical situation, that's different. (Recall 
Deadline, where searching a room could take several minutes.) You could 
point that out by having the default "search" message be "You spend a few 
minutes looking over X..." And of course if you do it during a battle, 
you die.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Oct 22 10:41:33 CED 1996
Article: 18291 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Look vs examine vs search
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Brad O`Donnell (s7m6@romulus.sun.csd.unb.ca) wrote:
>   Hmmm... How badly would people complain if the verb "search" did 
>  something like the following: (borrowing from Sean Givan a bit)
> [ SearchSub;
>    < Examine Noun >;
>    < LookIn Noun >;
>    < LookUnder Noun >;
> ];

I (as an author) would complain very loudly indeed, and I don't like it 
much as a player either.

Automating actions? No! That's not what I want. If my players are typing 
commands automatically, because trying everything is easier than thinking 
about what they wants to do next, then I have failed as an author. Failed 
in what I'm trying to do. I want every single action the game character 
performs to happen because the player thought, "I want to do this. I want 
to look under this bush. I want to walk over to the bush, get down on my 
hands and knees, lift up some branches, and poke around in the dirt near 
the roots."

As the author, I have to do two things to facilitate this. First, I have 
to ensure that the player can easily communicate this thought to the 
game. We have a mutually-agreed-on language for this purpose; it's 
fuzzily defined, but I think the majority of us would agree that "LOOK 
UNDER BUSH" is a valid (though not the only valid) way of translating 
this thought. Whereas "GET DOWN ON HANDS AND KNEES" is not worth trying.

Second, I must try to make sure that the player doesn't perform the 
action by *accident*. Otherwise the immersion of that mini-scene is gone, 
poof. This is where the balancing game starts. If the player types 
"EXAMINE BUSH", did he mean "get down on hands and knees and poke around 
in the dirt", or "peer closely at a leaf, paying particular attention to 
the texture and color"? What about "SEARCH BUSH"? It's questionable. My
decision has much to do with how much emotional impact I want in the 
scene, finding this thing under a bush. Because I *know* I will guess 
wrong for some players, either way. On the one hand, there will be 
the frustration of players who thought they *did* look under the bush 
when they typed "X BUSH". On the other hand, there will be the sogginess 
of players who discovered the thing under the bush by accident, when they 
never thought of looking down there at all, but only were curious what 
kind of bush it was. *That's* the choice I must make as an author. Which 
failure is less damaging in this particular case?

This is why I would not implement your suggestion, you see? It aids the 
game at the expense of what I'm trying to induce in the player. Nobody 
would use such a verb if they wanted to look at the leaves, or look 
around the roots, or look among the branches; they would use it because 
it's easier than paying attention.

> 				Who wishes that someone else was
> 				interested in being able to type 
> 				"pat head + rub tummy" in a game 
> 				and have it mean something.

I'm interested. I believe there was such a thing in Bureaucracy, right? 
"Turn handle 1 and handle 2" was different from "turn handle 1. turn 
handle 2."

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From someguy@someplace.com Fri Oct 25 10:00:33 CED 1996
Article: 18395 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: someguy@someplace.com
Subject: How intiuitive should a puzzle be?
Message-ID: <326FD46D.6952@someplace.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 20:41:17 +0000
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Ims till working on designing puzzles for my game, even though I
cant compile it, and I want to know if this would be considered a 
fair puzzle.  You see, you have no clues to the nature of the puzzle
within the game itself, but the nature of the game is a clue to the 
puzzle.  Confused? <g>  Read on, youll understand.


The armory
  Yeah right.  Its basically a big space full of empty weapons racks.
It was supposed to be filled wiht all the weapons of terror Triax
took from his mighty opponents- but since Triax always gets the snot
beaten out of him by any race more advanced than o, say humans, this
place is more or less empty.

  One rack near the door catches your eye by appearing to not be
empty.

>EXAMINE RACK
  My god, there are two guns here, securely locked in the case.
  Below each one of the guns, there is a neatly printed label.

>EXAMINE GUN
  Which gun do you mean, the left gun, or the right gun?

>LEFT GUN
   The left gun looks like your basic raygun.  There's a printed
   label on the case below it that says "Acme Disintegrator pistol"

>GET LEFT GUN
   Both guns are securely locked in their case, to which Tirax has
   the key.

>EXAMINE RIGHT GUN
  The right gun looks like your basic raygun.  There's a printed
  label on the case below it that says "Kill-o-zap pistol"

 Suddenly, there is an <bzzzzst-click> and the ships intercom hums
  into life. "Greetings human.  My sensors show you are on my ship.
  I shall be coming to collect you and your head shortly.. not
  necessarily in that order."

>i
  You have in your possesion
   A razor blade
   <snip>
   A label maker

> SCRAPE LEFT LABEL
  (with the razor blade)
  The left label falls to pieces when you scrape it off.

> SCRAPE RIGHT LABEL
   (with the razor)
  The right label falls to pieces when you scrape it off.

> MAKE KILL-O-ZAP LABEL WITH LABEL MAKER
  You print out a label reading "Kill-o-zap pistol"

> MAKE ACME LABEL WITH LABEL MAKER
  You print out a label reading "Acme disintegrator pistol"

> PUT ACME LABEL UNDER RIGHT GUN
  You affix the label under the right gun.

> PUT KILL-O-ZAP label under left gun.
   You affix the label under the lfet gun.

   Suddenly, the door wooshes open and in strides Triax the teribble.
Well, allright hes not so terrible- more like a big green snowman.
But he's still between you and the door.
   He unlocks the case and grabs a pistol and points it at you.
"Say Goodbye Earthling.. be prepared to spend the next millenium in
my trophy room".

> GET PISTOL
  You quickly snatch up the remaining pistol.

  Triax fires his pistol, and the look of suprise on his face when
it disentgrates is truly spectacular.

Still with me? K. Good. heres my question.  Technically, there is
NOTHING in the game to this point that indicates you should switch
the labels.  Is it allright to assume that becuase it is an adventure
game, the player will try and do everything he can?  Or should I
try and work in a warning that the labels must be switched.

Oh, and on the technical side, how difficult will implementing the
label maker be?  Not that I can(kicks stupid puter with no memory)
but Im curious

Chidder



From nkg@vcn.bc.ca Tue Oct 29 15:28:46 CET 1996
Article: 18496 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!mn6.swip.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!bowl.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!freenet.vancouver.bc.ca!nkg
From: nkg@vcn.bc.ca (Neil K. Guy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Genres: Restated
Date: 28 Oct 1996 04:14:49 GMT
Organization: Vancouver CommunityNet
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Ross Raszewski (rraszews@skipjack.bluecrab.org) wrote:

: It's like a foreign film (For those for whom this term may be
: misleading, I speak of the "idelized" independant film, where people sit
: around and sigh over the futility of life.  Critics love these.  Very
: few people watch them.) [...]

 Yeah, I know. Those damned foreigners... make those rotten idealized 
independent films. Sick bunch, you ask me. I bet you they eat weird food 
that nobody else eats too.

: [...]  The
: puzzle shoudl be a _part_ of the story, not a metaphor for it. [...]

 Hm. I'm still not too sure what you're upset about. If you don't like 
some of the more experimental games then don't play them. There are 
plenty of less introspective games out there. (what Graham Nelson might 
call games that are more crossword than narrative)

 The last couple years has seen quite a resurgence of interest in the 
textual i-f genre. Some authors seem interested in following the early 
Infocom puzzle style. Others are more interested in prose (though hardly 
prosaic) experiments; trying to do something nobody has tried before. 
Some games offer a lot of freedom of action (relatively speaking - in an 
absolute sense the freedom is quite illusory of course) whereas others 
are very linear. I'm still not sure why you feel that puzzles must not be 
a metaphor for the story, other than the fact that you don't seem to like 
the idea.

 - Neil K. Guy

--
        the Vancouver CommunityNet   *   http://www.vcn.bc.ca/
              (formerly the Vancouver Regional FreeNet)


From jbarlow@ipass.net Tue Nov  5 09:41:35 CET 1996
Article: 18609 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jbarlow@ipass.net (Joe Barlow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Review of Perdition's Flames
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 23:43:39 GMT
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        Anyone who has been reading this newsgroup for a while knows
that a  couple of exciting events have happened in the world of I-F
recently: 
   1) TADS has been released as freeware, and
   2) This year's I-F competition is underway at last!
        Between the excitement of these two events, the freeware
release of Mike Roberts' wonderful adventure Perdition's Flames has
been largely ignored.  I reviewed the commercial version of the game
for the 'zine INTELLIGENT GAMER back in March 1994, and gave it one of
the highest ratings I have ever given any product before or since.
        For the benefit of those folks who have not yet downloaded the
game, I am "reprinting" an updated version of the review here.  Even
now, two and a half years after I first encountered it, this game
remains one of my very favorite adventures.
        A couple of things about the review: please remember that it
was written in 1994, before I knew anything about TADS.  I touted a
couple of the features in PF as being very unique, such as the ability
to dump a transcript of the game to a text file.  Of course, that's a
standard feature of TADS and Inform games, but I didn't know it at the
time.  Also, at the time I reviewed it, the game was still commercial.
Obviously, the comments about the game's copy-protection and all of
the game's "included goodies" don't apply to the freeware version.  I
am leaving them in the review, however, because the final rating the
game received was due in part to its extensive Infocom-like packaging.
Even without it, though, this game is well worth a look, especially
for FREE.  Check it out on ftp.gmd.de or your favorite mirror site!


-=-=-= Begin Review =-=-=-

PERDITION'S FLAMES: Go to Hell and stay there
Reviewed by Joe Barlow  (jbarlow@ipass.net)

   "I'm too young to die...."        
        
        It has been said that man's greatest journey is the one he
makes at death, and with good reason.  People have always been
fascinated by what lies beyond our "mortal" world, and the book and
film market have been quick to capitalize on this interest.  Even the
computer gaming industry has explored the concept, much to the delight
and surprise of many gamers.  More than one recent game has allowed
players to explore the afterlife, including Sierra's King's Quest 6:
Heir Today Gone Tomorrow, which offered would-be adventurers the
chance to see the Realm of the Dead, complete with eerie background
music and frightening graphics.  Now, California-based publisher High
Energy Software has taken a look at the afterlife (with tongue firmly
in-cheek,) and death will never be the same again.  Let's face it: any
game which opens with the  message "*** You have died ***" can't be
all bad!  Quite the contrary, in fact: Perdition's Flames is a
marvelous adventure game, and the best way I've yet found to explore
Hell without leaving the comfort of my own home.
        As the game begins, the player's soul is drifting down a river
on a yacht, along with several other newly deceased people.  The
player is free to wander around the ship, have a few drinks at the
bar, chat with the crew, or just enjoy the scenery.  This opening
sequence is a fantastic way of familiarizing yourself with the "feel"
of the game.  Wander around and enjoy the atmosphere.  Get used to
being dead.  You'll find out that it's not terribly different from the
life you're used to.  (Hmmmm. I wonder if that's significant.)
        After a short while, the ship will arrive at a dock leading to
the Hell mainland.  Once you leave the ship, you'll find yourself in
the merry land of Hell, which is quite a bit different than most of us
have been led to believe.  If the player wishes, he or she may attend
a welcoming seminar, during which various other new arrivals will ask
some hilarious "newbie" questions, and receive answers from the Hell
Welcoming Committee.
        From the seminar, the player learns that Hell has decided to
update its image.  Gone is the "Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter" sign
that used to hang atop the main gate.  Gone is the eternity of
damnation and suffering that every church preacher in the history of
the world has shouted and sweated about in his sermons.  Now, Hell is
just like any other nice place to live, with shopping malls, suburbs,
and a Department of Motor Vehicles.  (Somehow,  we all knew that Hell
would have one of these, didn't we?)
        What if a soul is uncomfortable in Hell?  No problem!  People
are able to freely go back and forth between Heaven and Hell, staying
as long as they like in either place.  Transportation to and from
Heaven is accomplished via an enormous elevator in the middle of town,
provided one has a ticket.
       
       
   Just think of it as Sim-Hell...
       
       Perdition's Flames (PF) features incredibly detailed
descriptions of rooms and objects.  Its text-only interface recalls
the greatness of Infocom (a software publisher from the late
1970s-late 1980s who wrote many text-only adventure games), without
resorting to some of the shortcomings that were typical of even this
mighty software giant.  For starters, PF is "100% Certified
Maze-Free!"  For folks like me who still occasionally wake up 
screaming in the middle of the night because of Zork III's Royal
Puzzle, this is a heaven-sent (no pun intended) gift.  True questers
will also be relieved to learn that it's quite impossible to get
yourself in a position from which it's no longer possible to win.
This was my only real gripe with Infocom's games: all too often, if
you didn't do something trivial way back at the beginning of the game,
you were unable to solve a puzzle much later in your quest.  (The
cheese sandwich puzzle from Hitchhiker's Guide comes to mind.)
       
       
   Hell on Wheels
       
       Moving around Hell is easy: the player simply types in which
way he or she wants to go: "Go north," for example.  More complicated
sentences are also allowed: the player may type something along the
lines of "Go north.  Open the door then take the shiny gold coin."
Players can keep track of the items they are carrying with the
standard "inventory" command.
	 One of the more unique features PF has that many other games do not
is the ability to dump a transcript of the game in progress to a text
file.  Infocom's classics allowed transcripts to be dumped to a
printer, so the tradeoff is a fair one.  Even some of Infocom's more
obscure commands like VERBOSE (turn on long descriptions) are present
(and welcome) in PF.  All in all, this game is something I wouldn't be
surprised to find on a hypothetical Lost Treasures of Infocom Volume
Three.


   Is it hot in here, or is it just me?

        What makes PF stand out above the countless other text games
currently on the market is its wonderful sense of humor.  The game
makes some truly awful puns, pokes fun at everyone's notion of what
Hell is "supposed" to be, and keeps you looking forward to coming back
to Hell every time you have to leave the computer.  If the player
should find a pitchfork in a barn, for example, the game mocks: "Now
if you only had horns and a tail, you'd own this place!"  During your
welcoming seminar, the player discovers that it is unwise to try and
sue anyone in Hell because the Hell Judicial System is based on the
one in the United States, and it will take an eternity (literally) for
cases to come to trial.  And hearing the woman in front of you
answer questions in the Celestial Security Office (in the style of
Douglas Adams' Bureaucracy) will make you laugh out loud.
        PF was written using TADS (Text Adventure Development System),
a programming tool also published by High Energy.  TADS allows users
to write games that are of Infocom quality, and, if PF is any
indication, they ain't just whistling "Dixie" with this claim.


   "I may be going to Hell in a bucket, baby...
    but at least I'm enjoying the ride." - Grateful Dead

        PF's elaborate packaging is another way in which the folks at
High Energy Software have summoned the ghost of Infocom.  PF comes
with a handsome map, a detailed, well-written manual, a hint book, a
reference card, and "The Official Tourist Guide to Hell," an
illustrated, side-splitting pamphlet that contains the game's
copy-protection, in addition to many amusing items of interest.
        Let's talk about the quality of the game's prose.  Although 
comparisons with Infocom are unavoidable when reviewing text
adventures, the prose of PF is elegant, often funny and immensely
enjoyable, equaling (and in some cases, even surpassing) many of
Infocom's works.  (It easily beats out the Zork Trilogy, for instance,
and is on par with Deadline or even A Mind Forever Voyaging in terms
of the quality, if not intensity, of its writing.)
        I loved the non-linear nature of the game.  Although by
neccessity certain puzzles have to be solved before other puzzles can
be reached, the game is tremendously flexible.  You truly feel like
you are PLAYING the game, rather than being sent to Location A to get
Object B to take to Location C to exchange it for Object D, etc.
(Indeed, this is largely neccessary, since the game's goal is not
revealed to you until quite late in the adventure.)
        Finally, I enjoyed the difficult *BUT STILL LOGICAL* nature of
many of the puzzles.  While many Infocom games had brain-twisting
challenges, the solutions were occasionally not very logical at all
(I'm thinking particularly of the two Douglas Adams games here).
There are two great head-scratchers that particularly stand out in
Perdition's Flames: the Haunted House/Ring puzzle and the Lion-Headed
Statue puzzle.  These are two of the best puzzles I have ever seen in
ANY interactive-fiction game, in both implementation and originality.
Both of these obstacles were *very* difficult to solve, but in the end
the solutions made sense, and I felt a sense of accomplishment at
having figured them out.
        System requirements for the game are tough to reveal: the
review copy INTELLIGENT GAMER received from Michael Roberts (the
author of the game) didn't list them, but they seem to be just about
as minimal as you could expect.  The program uses a swap file to run
on machines with small amounts of memory, and a hard drive is
recommended.  The program ran equally well on my 286/12 and my 486/50.
        Pricing: Perdition's Flames is available directly from High
Energy software only.  Don't look for it in "Electronics Boutique,"
although this magnificent product is good enough to be there.  The
cost is $25.00, plus shipping and handling.  Please contact High
Energy Software if you wish to order.  Don't forget to specify which
product you're ordering!
        RATING: 9.5 out of 10.  Perdition's Flames is an incredibly 
entertaining game with an original premise, and would be a bargain at
twice the price.  Fans of text adventure games will not want to miss
this one.  If, however, you don't think you'll be able to see past its
lack of graphics, you should probably look elsewhere.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Joe Barlow  (jbarlow@ipass.net)
"Zorkers do it under the rug..."



From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 13 09:53:38 CET 1996
Article: 18774 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Are text adventures *really* better?
Date: 12 Nov 1996 19:58:20 GMT
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Xref: news.lth.se comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure:141129 rec.games.int-fiction:18774


Ah, this old thread. :)  Brings back memories.

I'm not really sure why I go for text adventures so much.  It's an
undeniable fact that I do: I'm the organizer of a yearly text adventure
competition, the editor of a text adventure magazine (plaintext only), and
I've been writing my first full-sized game, Avalon, for three years.  It
is, of course, a text adventure.  But, I'll take a shot at explaining my
reasons.

Part of the joy I would say arises from being able to get involved
directly in text adventures.  I can easily write my own.  I don't need 4
artists, a producer, and 38 well-known actors to produce a great game.  I
need myself, my computer, and spare time.  Betatesters are optional, but
recommended.  Plus, even though I am going for some fairly nice packaging,
it's still an investment under $1000.  I don't think there are many
graphical games that can boast that kind of shoestring budget without
being a rehashed clone of an earlier game.

Another aspect to text adventures is the writing.  I love to read.  I've
read thousands of books.  I've read more books than I've seen paintings
(not counting book covers, of course.) and so I know more about good
reading than good painting.  I really know so little about painting that I
wouldn't know the work of a master if it bit me on the bottom.

Another great thing in text adventures is the degree of control you have.
It's not practical to produce a large number of actions in a graphical
game.  Animation takes too much time.  However, I can simply type in a
paragraph or two describing what happens when you try something
outlandish.

A facet that has been true in my experience, but may not ring true in
yours, is this: Text adventure authors are easier to contact and more
likely to take your comments and criticisms to heart.  Graphical games are
aiming for the lowest common denominator.  They are market driven.  If
there is a trend you don't like, tough noogies.  Someone has spent money
determining that you (or at least more than half of their audience) wants
this trend.  Doom, Street Fighter 2, the move from parsers to point 'n
click, the move to less interactive graphical games (even further beyond
what I already mentioned).  These are trends in the market that I really
despised.  Oh yes, and real-time strategy games.  Ooh, there's a wad of
fun.  I've written in about these things, but they're not gonna change.
Why?  Because my money doesn't mean a thing to them.  Because there are
more people who want these things.  My comments and desires get lost at a
big company.

Text adventures are written by hobbyists nowadays.  If you send a comment
to a hobbyist, you are pretty darn certain to get a reply, or at least
results from your comments.  I like having some control over where my
hobby is heading.  Plus, having dealt with most every current text
adventure author, I can tell you that they're all pretty nice folks.
(Except me.  I'm a terror.)

Now, if you happen to prefer kick-ass graphics to a solid plot, that's
fine.  I'm not going to argue which is better.  I WILL argue that text
adventures have better plots though.  I will also argue that most of the
best characterizations ever done in a computer game were from text
adventures.  These things mean more to me than pictures.  Pictures are
icing, to be added after you have some idea of where your game is going.
They are not the cake itself, deserving to have a storyline catering to
them.  Once graphical games understand this, I may start buying them.
Judging by the reviews and comments I have seen, maybe 3 games have
figured it out so far. 

This brings me to one last comment: cost.  Text adventures all cost less
than $25 (many are free, most at least shareware.)  You can entertain
yourself for just as long, on 1/4 the money.
(My game will likely be $20-25, demoware.  But, as I said, I'm a terror.
Almost any text adventure author you point to is nicer than me.  Besides,
I've been writing for 3 years, have nice packaging, and the game is pretty
huge.)
-- 
<~~ftp.gmd.de:/if-archive/competition96/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~>
<         Join in the 1996 Interactive Fiction Competition.         |  ~~\  >
< The Deadline is NOVEMBER 30th, 1996 to submit your votes.         | /~\|  >
<______________________________________whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu_|_\__/__>


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Nov 14 14:53:00 CET 1996
Article: 18821 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: WANTED: Your thoughts on fantasy I-F
Message-ID: <erkyrathE0tID2.EJM@netcom.com>
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Matthew Amster-Burton (mamster@u.washington.edu) wrote:

> This has just made me think of another questions.  How many works of
> IF can we collectively think of that have no fantasy elements at all?
> That is, no sci-fi, no magic, nothing that couldn't actually happen
> (farfetched is okay).  Let's see...there's Deadline (haven't played
> the other Infocom detective games, so I don't know about those).
> What's everyone's prognosis for such "mundane" works?  Does the medium
> fare well without magic?

I read practically nothing without magic (or sci-fi) elements. This 
doesn't mean I'm morally opposed to them, and I've enjoyed the few that I 
was inspired to read (by some other factor.) (There's a famous case of 
one of Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Bar" stories which had absolutely 
no SF or fantasy elements at all. One of the best ones in the series, 
which is otherwise heavily SF.) 

The other Infocom detective games were also real-world.

_Seastalker_ may or may not count as SF for you. There's nothing 
particularly advanced about its tech... well, maybe the monster does it 
for you. :)

About certain competition entries this year, we speak not. Last year, 
weren't "The Big One" and "Tube Trouble" real-world? It's been a while.

--Z



-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From mol@marvin.df.lth.se Thu Nov 14 14:53:09 CET 1996
Article: 18822 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!mol
From: mol@marvin.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WANTED: Your thoughts on fantasy I-F
Date: 14 Nov 1996 13:09:10 GMT
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In article <560udf$cfd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
C.E. Forman <ceforman@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>After reading some of the recent threads about "stale" I-F genres - pulp
>sci-fi, time travel, and particularly fantasy - I'm a bit concerned about
>the acceptance of "Circle of Armageddon", the next major effort by myself
>and co-author Jeff Cassidy.

Yes, people are complaining about "stale genres", but I think it's a
dangerous conclusion to say that this is the fault of the genres. 

There is a lot of stereotyped "epic fantasy" out there, but the
problem with it is not that it's stereotyped *fantasy*, but that it's
*stereotyped*. Of course, there are some genres that have pretty
restrictive conventions, but fantasy is not one of them. Those people
condemning the entire fantasy genre because they can't stand another
bad imitation fo Tolkien are commiting the crime of throwing out the
baby with the bathwater; their penalty is, of course, that they miss a
lot of good (and original!) stuff that just happens to have some
fantasy elements.

In the case of I-F, it seems that the days when people judged a game
solely by its puzzles are gone. In I-F, plot used to be just an excuse
to throw a lot of neat puzzles at the player - and what is simpler in
that case than more or less slavishly following some precedent? Not so
anymore. 

So, my advice would be: if you want a fantasy setting, go for it. Just
avoid the cliches.

>     2) "Circle" will combine the traditional (some might substitute the
>        adjective "generic") fantasy elements such as Tolkien characters
>        - elves, dwarves, gnomes - and D&D scenarios (though there is
>        NO monster-slaying this time around); journeying; casting spells
>        (though not directly from scrolls - "Circle" will have a truly
>        unique yet uncomplicated magic system); and collection of a
>        series of useful (i.e. non-useless) magical artifacts to pace
>        the plot.

As long as the player doesn't too often get the feeling of having done
this before, this could be absolutely great. 

>  But in addition to the standard fantasy-quest stuff,
>        "Circle" will rise above the average LOtR clone through the use
>        of factual details of medieval life and customs, and a good deal
>        of political intrigue mixed into the plot.

Sounds promising. The factual medieval life could be a refreshing
contrast to all the rehashed pseudo-medieval fantays settings out
there.  However, it could also clash with the fantasy themes: if the
world is too realistic, magic, goblins and D&D scenarios may seem out
of place... 

>Now, given what I've just told you, could you please let me know:
>
>  1) What are your thoughts on traditional fantasy (i.e. straight
>     D&D/Tolkien clones) versus researched/"real" fantasy (i.e. "Curses",
>     "The Once and Future King", etc.)?  Do traditional fantasy games
>     always appear tired and cliched to you, or can their unoriginality
>     be downplayed by high entertainment value, coupled with solid
>     puzzles, plot, and characters?  (In other words, do you throw out
>     the whole game simply because of a generic fantasy setting?)

In addition to what I've said above: any game that relies heavily on
genre conventions run a _risk_ of appearing tired and cliched. WHether
they actually do depends on how much the author has been able to
provide in addition to the genre conventions. Solid characters are a
good example of such an addition. Genre conventions can act as a
substitute for creativity - which is bad - or they can just provide a
starting point for something new. 

In the case of I-F, "artistic" issues can *always* be downplayed by
entertainment value, or so it seems. Look at the first two chapters of
"Time" (which is as far as I've got): extremely cliched "mad
scientist" and cyberpunk stuff, coupled with rather lacklustre
writing, and yet people seem to *love* it as a game. 


>  2) Would you even download and try a game like "Circle", as I've
>     described it?  Would you discuss it on rec.games.int-fiction if
>     it were substantial enough to merit discussion?

Yes to both questions.

>  3) If you got sufficient enjoyment out of the game, and felt that it
>     matched or exceeded the level of quality I've described above,
>     would you consider registering it?  (I am NOT soliciting
>     registrations.  Answering "yes" does not obligate you in any way
>     to register.  I simply want to get an idea of the demand for this
>     type of game.)

It's very doubtful. Not because I'm a cheapskate, but beacuse of the
incredible hassle involved in handling overseas payments of small
amounts. Or do you perhaps accept credit cards? 

>  4) Any other thoughts you have on this matter?  (But please don't
>     feed me the "do what YOU want, not what everyone else wants" line.
>     If no one else is interested, I doubt we'll even bother.)


I'd just like to stress, once again, that the days when it was enoguh
to throw together a bunch of neat puzzles in a generic fantasy or
sci-fi setting are over. However, based on what I've seen of PTF (not
too much; I haven't had time to play more than the first few moves), I
don't think there's any risk of that. 

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se)


From straight@email.unc.edu Fri Nov 15 10:22:41 CET 1996
Article: 18833 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Michael Straight <straight@email.unc.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WANTED: Your thoughts on fantasy I-F
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:36:12 -0500
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
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On 14 Nov 1996, Magnus Olsson wrote:

> In article <560udf$cfd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> C.E. Forman <ceforman@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >  But in addition to the standard fantasy-quest stuff,
> >        "Circle" will rise above the average LOtR clone through the use
> >        of factual details of medieval life and customs, and a good deal
> >        of political intrigue mixed into the plot.
> 
> Sounds promising. The factual medieval life could be a refreshing
> contrast to all the rehashed pseudo-medieval fantays settings out
> there.  However, it could also clash with the fantasy themes: if the
> world is too realistic, magic, goblins and D&D scenarios may seem out
> of place... 

Let me offer a balancing suggestion.  I think one characteristic of some
of the best fanatasy is that it begins in a convincingly mundane setting
against which the wonders actually seem wonderful.  Tolkein's epic begins
in the Shire and takes a long time to get to the wonders of Lorien.. 

To take an example from IF, I think that what makes the fantasy elements
in Curses work so well is the contrast with the very realistic and
well-described Meldrew house. 

So I would encourage you to consider making the medieval setting as
realistic and down-to-earth as possible so that magic and elves seem like
magical wonders rather than cliche and everyday.

I'd also echo Magnus's comments that good writing, humor, and fun
situations can cover a multitude of sins.

Michael Straight is at 170 points in Curses.
FLEOEVDETYHOEUPROEONREWMEILECSOFMOERSGTIRVAENRGEEARDSTVHIESBIITBTLHEEPSRIACYK
Ethical	Mirth Gas/"I'm chaste alright."/Magic Hitler Hats/"Hath	grace limits?"
"Irate Clam Thighs!"/Chili Hamster Tag/The Gilt	Charisma/"I gather this calm."



From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 17 14:12:08 CET 1996
Article: 18894 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Wrenches
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:11:52 +0000 (GMT)
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In article <E0voyn.Dz@ladle.demon.co.uk>, John Hartnup
<URL:mailto:slim@ladle.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Matthew Amster-Burton (mamster@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> : John Hartnup <slim@ladle.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> : >it's corny gags ("it's a wrench, but you take it")
> 
> : Hey, what the heck does this refer to?  I remember wondering that
when
> : playing Curses, and you just jogged my memory.
> 
> I don't think it's a reference, so much as a cheap pun...

"Cheap", huh.  I spent hours crafting that one:

  > get wrench
  It's a wrench, but you take it.

...and the one about the "Harrison bird whistle" (but unless
you follow British contemporary music...), and the one
comparing Aunt Jemima to Sylvia Plath (but unless, etc.,
etc.,...)

Actually my cheapest shot, I think, is the moment in Jigsaw
where one of the passengers aboard the Titanic remarks that
"worse things happen at sea".  Not really, no.

-- 
Graham Nelson  |  graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United
Kingdom



From Twist@cris.com Sun Nov 17 21:24:31 CET 1996
Article: 18926 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Twist@cris.com (Twist)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: WANTED: Your thoughts on fantasy I-F
Date: 17 Nov 1996 17:38:36 GMT
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Lines: 42
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NNTP-Posting-Host: mariner.cris.com

nulldogma@aol.com writes:

>From my own experience, I'd guess that the medium fares okay, but the
>implementer doesn't. When designing puzzles, it's just too tempting to
>throw in a Frobozz Magic Whatever lying around, just to make life simpler.

The Magic Ring problem. If a character has the all-powerfull Magic Ring,
where is the suspense of the story? If you're Tolkien you make the ring
evil so using it will corrupt the user. If you're Donaldson you make the
user a snivelling idiot ( :-) here come the Donaldson fans after me...).
If you're a bad author you let the Ring take control of your story...

>other than time travel, is essentially reality-based), I breathed a great
>big sigh of relief that I could use "magic" elements, and just call them
>advanced technology.

See, I would have exactly the opposite reaction. "Ah hell, this sounds 
like I'm just waving a wand and making it happen". Too me that's a BAD
thing, because the reader might feel cheated. All depends on what you do I
guess.

>will not have any SF or fantasy to it. And it is *hard* to write, or at
>least to write well. What I wouldn't give for a good tachyon beam
>generator...

A tachyon beam generator isn't a Magic Ring. Tachyons exist in scientific
theory and therefore have a reference point in many readers minds. Even
the effects of a Tachyon beam can be postulated from existing theory (look
ma, a steller core doesn't slow it down!). A far fetched example would be
playing a tachyon beam over a person and have them grow younger. Although
astoundingly improbable (nature despises anybody who attemps to reverse
entropy, and She'll deal with you shortly) it does have that tiniest piece
of plausibility to readers, since many have heard that a "tachyon could
arrive before it was sent" or some such tripe.

On the other hand if Gandalf shakes his staff and somebody grows younger,
there's no basis for the reader to understand the action. The Emperor has
no clothes, and the reader (consciously or unconciously) knows that you,
the writer, simply made it up. Suspension of disbelief takes a hit and
maybe goes down for the count. 

-Rich


From ldaly@cs.bu.edu Thu Nov 21 09:54:27 CET 1996
Article: 19039 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: ldaly@cs.bu.edu (Art Gecko)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Competition] - "In The End"... Is it really I-F?
Date: 20 Nov 1996 19:37:27 GMT
Organization: The House of Erotic Massage
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[Added spoiler space, although I'm not sure this entry really needs
it.]





























mraymond@bu.edu penned:

>    After playing "In The End", one of the Inform games in the 96 Interactive
> Fiction Competition, I can't say I care for it. While the author
> claims that it is a revolutionary, "puzzleless" form of interactive
> fiction, it isn't actually that interactive. The entire story is
> centered around suicide, and it would appear that suicide is the
> only real way to end the game. (The game is, as far as I can tell,
> unwinnable.) It's more like a static short story ported to
> Inform. 

> Am I the only one who feels this way about the story?

A story can certainly be interactive without containing puzzles.
Events that occur in one part of the game need to influence events
later, just like in real life.  I got a strong sense of importance in
most of my actions in "Mind Forever Voyaging", for example, although
most of them centered around, "If you go here too frequently, you
die." 

I didn't get this sense at all from "In the End."  It didn't seem to
matter whether I drove the girl home, or bought the magazine, or
talked to the bartender - the only differences in the ending I could
find were whether or not I sat in the chair. 

Maybe I didn't understand the point of many of these sub-sections
(this could be the fault of either myself as the player, or the
author).  Maybe I didn't explore the game thoroughly enough.  If the
point was to make the player feel as futile and hopeless as the
main character, then I guess it succeeded.  I simply ran out of things
to do.

On the other hand, I though Tapestry did a much better job of an
essentially puzzleless "game" in which the player could formulate a
plan of action, execute it, and experience the consequences.  In fact,
that seemed to be pretty much the whole purpose of the game.

--Liza


--
"how did i get here?                                         gecko@retina.net
 why was it my turn to be abused?                                MSTie #69957
 where the hell does this lead to?            http://fovea.retina.net/~gecko/
 why am i writing this?" - web comment            



From straight@email.unc.edu Thu Nov 21 09:56:28 CET 1996
Article: 19015 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Michael Straight <straight@email.unc.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Competition] - "In The End"... Is it really I-F?
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:08:24 -0500
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Lines: 69
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Let's have some spoiler space here folks...
















On 20 Nov 1996 mraymond@bu.edu wrote:

>    After playing "In The End", one of the Inform games in the 96 Interactive
> Fiction Competition, I can't say I care for it. While the author claims that it
> is a revolutionary, "puzzleless" form of interactive fiction, it isn't actually that
> interactive. The entire story is centered around suicide, and it would appear
> that suicide is the only real way to end the game. (The game is, as far as I
> can tell, unwinnable.) It's more like a static short story ported to Inform.
> 
>    Am I the only one who feels this way about the story?

While I didn't really care for ITE, it interested me enough to play around
with it some and the lack of puzzles made it possible for me to experience
most of the "game" fairly quickly.  I think what is interesting about ITE
and what separates it from a "static short story" is the attempt to force
the "reader" into the protagonist's shoes.  You might get some of the same
effect by writing a short story in the second person, but ITE forces you
to either leave the woman in the rain or take her home and stand on the
doorstep, wondering if there is any possibility of a further relationship.
You pick up the magazine and read the dumb article about the "Face of
God," (although the story decides how you feel about it, as I'll discuss
below).  You have to "make the decision" to kill yourself, and you decide
where you'll do it.

Where I think ITE fails is that it wants the reader to play the role of
someone who kills himself, but doesn't give the reader enough information
and background to go on.  There are some attempts at creating depressing
situations - taking the girl home and feeling left alone, sitting in a
lonely bar, driving in the rain, reading a stupid attempt to find meaning
in life (something of a straw man, I thought), but I didn't think they
were sufficient.  I don't know about other people, but when I offer a
woman a ride home and she doesn't invite me in for some romance or
whatever, my first thought isn't to go home and kill myself.  In fact, I
don't think I ever would have thought to do that in the game if I hadn't
read the walkthrough.

Perhaps if the beginning had had a lot more description of the character
so that the player would have more of an idea of what kind or role he was
supposed to play, some indication of how the depressing events did or
didn't resonate with the protagonist's past, I would have gotten more in
character.  As it was, the protagonist's outburst at the stupid magazine
article came out of nowhere and seemed forced on me.

As someone who sees suicide as morally offensive, this could have been a
chance to force me into someone else's shoes and help me see another side
of the issue, but there just wasn't enough characterization to go on.

Michael Straight will be interested to see comparisons between ITE & Tapestry.
FLEOEVDETYHOEUPROEONREWMEILECSOFMOERSGTIRVAENRGEEARDSTVHIESBIITBTLHEEPSRIACYK
Ethical	Mirth Gas/"I'm chaste alright."/Magic Hitler Hats/"Hath	grace limits?"
"Irate Clam Thighs!"/Chili Hamster Tag/The Gilt	Charisma/"I gather this calm."



From RDQW@music.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU Thu Nov 21 09:58:26 CET 1996
Article: 18945 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Bruce Alan Greenwood <RDQW@music.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Query
Date: 15 NOV 96 16:15:21 -1100
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Has anyone ever created a kind of "anti-zork", where the purpose of
the player is to clean up a dungeon by restoring all the treasures
to their various positions, bring monsters back to life(with the
aid of the ubiquitous orange dust, of course) and - and stuff?  If so,
then I won't bother writing "Unzork" as my first IF creation.

Please respond, or I'll think that nobody likes me... :(

---
Bruce Greenwood
You find yourself in a field west of a white house.  An open mailbox
is here.  And what's more, the bastard has run off with the pamphlet.



From kinder@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk Thu Nov 21 12:40:24 MET 1996
Article: 19045 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: kinder@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk (David Kinder)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Competition] - "In The End"... Is it really I-F?
Date: 21 Nov 1996 10:53:44 GMT
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Art Gecko (ldaly@cs.bu.edu) wrote:

: I didn't get this sense at all from "In the End."  It didn't seem to
: matter whether I drove the girl home, or bought the magazine, or
: talked to the bartender - the only differences in the ending I could
: find were whether or not I sat in the chair. 

Since this thread seems to have been against "In the End" so far, I
thought I ought to stand up for what is my second favourite game in the
competition. (Although I haven't played all the games yet.) All the
scenes work well at creating a consistent atmosphere of futility,
especially the bit with Alice (or whatever her name was). On the other
hand, perhaps this scene works best because it isn't quite puzzle-less
I-F: The structure of a puzzle is there (Talk to Alice, get her to invite
you in, etc.) except that you can't win. I played this scene again and
again trying to learn something new, and that made the atmosphere very
strong. (Oddly enough, I was reminded of "A Change in the Weather" -
getting the player to keep having to redo a section of a game can work
if you're a good enough game writer.)

: On the other hand, I though Tapestry did a much better job of an
: essentially puzzleless "game"

By comparison I found Tapestry a bit dull, in that it wasn't at all hard
to guess how the other two endings went after playing one. The old
chestnut of being able to replay your life but being unable to really make
things better is a bit trite, too. But that's wandering off topic...

David



From ceforman@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Fri Nov 22 16:52:38 CET 1996
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From: "C.E. Forman" <ceforman@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: [CONTEST]  Here's what I thought...  [O-Z]
Date: 22 Nov 1996 00:53:01 GMT
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[CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS ARTICLE]


[ MORE SPOILER SPACE ]



















"Of Forms Unknown"
------------------
An attempt to continue the "expressive" I-F tradition of "So Far" - that
is, an interactive Bergman film that dwells on exploration, shifting
between various areas representing human thoughts and feelings, and old-
fashioned puzzle-solving, with little or no genuine plot to tie the
experiences together.

I'm not sure I like this new trend.  To give credit, "So Far" is a very
imaginative, ground-breaking new style of I-F, but the derivativeness of
"Forms" shows (the author himself admits this).  I fear that a glut of
this type of game will quickly make it tiresome and unpopular, much like
having too many "hunt-the-treasures-and-store-them-somewhere" games.

The writing is good, but painfully derivative while lacking much of the
depth of "So Far". The puzzles in "Forms" are thoroughly motivationless,
and they didn't hold my interest as well as Andrew Plotkin's work did.
(Even with Plotkin's work, I felt I was forcing myself through a few
parts of it.  I guess I'm just not crazy about this type of game.)  I
was able to figure out most of the early puzzles, but the later ones
required delving into the built-in hints to find out, for instance, the
right place to dig.  The final puzzle exhibits inexcusably frustrating
parsing, made more difficult by the fact that the hints are in error -
you must turn the _device_, not the wheel, but the hints say the
wheel.  (I played the original uploaded version, not the revised one
that appeared a few days after the deadline, so maybe this is fixed.)

Enjoyable at first, but tiresome toward the end.

My score: 6

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Phlegm"
--------
Ever wanted to see "Space Aliens Laughed at My Cardigan" on the
Z-machine?  Here it is.  Enjoy.

The scary part is that the author seems to know what he (she? it? none
of the above?) is doing -- the writing is for the most part gramatically
correct and game is not as buggy as "Cardigan", with the exception of
some screwed-up directions and incomplete direction lists, which almost
appear to be intentional.

It's every bit as incongruous as the great Andre M. Boyle's work,
though.  One minute you're in Ancient Mayan Ruins, the next at the End
of the World.  Add a series of blatant, gratuitous rip-offs (the needle
in the haystack from "Nord and Bert", the llama food and Restaurant at
the End of the Universe from Douglas Adams' works) that don't fit in at
all, and some thoroughly motivationless, illogical puzzles -- I'm
guessing that NO ONE figured out how to use Leo the lemming to scare
away the moose worshippers, right? -- and you've got a great contender
for absolute rock-bottom last place.

Perhaps "Phlegm" was intended as a satire of the likes of "Cardigan" and
"Detective"?  If so, it ultimately fails because there is no discernable
difference between the parody and the parodied.  Good for a number of
cheap laughs (particularly Leo), but unlike "Kissing the Buddha's Feet",
few of them are genuine.  The title itself is also misleading - I found
no phlegm anywhere in the game.  The author must have forseen all these
problems.  His/her/its/whatever's name is left off the credits.  Wise
choice, friend.

My score: 3

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Piece of Mind"
---------------
Now here's a real dilemma.

First, let me congratulate the author on a number of things:

        1) The switching of tense - from first-person past in the
           introduction, to first-person present in the main framework,
           to an omnipresent third-person tense for a sub-"plot" - is a
           very ambitious hack of the Inform grammar.
        2) I thought it was quite imaginative the way you divided one
          "room" into six different "locations".  A neat map twist.
        3) The "Outer Files" parody.  ROTFL!  Glad to see a fellow X-
           Phile writing I-F.  The truth is out there.  Trust no one.
        4) I was delighted to see the words of evil Professor Elvin
           Atombender of Epyx's "Impossible Mission" pop up.  Even ten
           years after the fact, I can _still_ hear that digitized voice
           perfectly, and it never fails to give me a nostalgic shiver.
           That was a GREAT game!  (And companies today think crap like
           "Phantasmagoria" can hold a candle.  Hmmph.)

Now some (hopefully) constructive criticism:

        1) Typos.  Particularly in the revised default grammar messages.
           Lots of missing periods, misspelled words, missing line-
           feeds, etc.  Double-check these the next time around.
        2) Try to give your entry a little more plot and consistency.
           This year we've seen a lot of entries - "Phlegm", "Rippled
           Flesh", and "Of Forms Unknown" come immediately to mind -
           where plots have been thrown out completely in exchange for
           wandering from one situation to the next.  These get old
           after awhile.  The drawn-into-a-book subgame is not as
           polished as the T.S. Eliot scene in "Curses", and most of
           the rest feels like excerpts from someone's private life
           that I'd rather not know a lot about.  Most of the
           situations make no sense, even under the guise of drug-
           induced hallucination.

My score: 4

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Promoted!"
-----------
The biggest drawback to this entry is its interpreter, which runs only
under OS/2.  I sincerely hope that this isn't detrimental to its vote
count, because it's a lot of fun, and deserves more attention than the
(relatively) small OS/2 crowd can give it.

Essentially, "Promoted!" is a zany satire of life in the corporate
world, with a well-established mythos and lots of in-jokes that non-
office players probably won't get much out of.  The biggest plus is
that the setting is not just a bunch of inside jokes based solely on
DeSanto's place of employment.  Anyone who's worked in a maze of twisty
little cubicles (all alike) will be able to relate to the situations
presented here.  DeSanto's take on corporate culture is amusing and well
thought out, and he has a good grasp of what REALLY goes on in an
office, though it's not quite up to the level of Scott Adams (and when I
say Scott Adams here, I am of course referring to the "Dilbert" Scott
Adams, not the SCOTT ADAMS Scott Adams).

On the other hand, some of the puzzles could be improved.  There's lots
of death without warning, a bit too much in a game without "UNDO", and
some very text-adventurish situations.  The colored tape puzzle, for
example, felt exactly like something that didn't quite make it into a
"Zork" game.  The disguise puzzles, on the other hand, are neat, and
quiz the player on the details of the world DeSanto has built.

I also encountered some difficulty with Rexx-Adventure itself.  It's a
neat engine, a snap to grasp, but a bit buggy.  Before I'd finished
"Promoted!", I'd crashed the engine multiple times, receiving VX-REXX
errors when I clicked among the lists a bit too fast, or when I tried
to exceed my inventory's capacity.  Future bug fixes should eliminate
this.  One advantage to the interface is the fact that its obviation of
guess-the-verb paves the way for some obscure puzzles that wouldn't be
acceptable with typed commands (i.e. "STRIP WIRES").  Here's hoping
Rexx-Adventure sees ports to more systems.

My score: 6

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Punkirita Quest One: Liquid"
-----------------------------
Hooboy.

I tried to like this one (I really did!), but even after finishing it I
felt I had virtually no grasp of the world the author was attempting to
create.  It's fantasy, of course, but aside from the introduction, there
is virtually no text to help players learn more about the world around
them.  Most rooms are empty and useless, and many of them have obscure
pop-culture jokes that appear hopelessly out of place.

The major puzzles are quite illogical, and there's really no way of
figuring them out without the walkthrough, as there are no characters to
talk to or ancient tomes to consult.  The writing is unfortunately quite
atrocious, with every kind of spelling, grammar, punctuation, and
capitalization error imaginable, which makes it a chore to read.

The author seems reluctant to add new verbs to the grammar: Help
screens, footnotes, and some attempts at background information are
stored in a separate text file.  (Then again, I did the same thing with
MST3K1 last year, so I guess I'm not fit to cast the first stone here.)

Perhaps this game might have turned out better in a longer format.  It
seems the author had a lot more to put into this game, but was daunted
by the two-hour limit.  I hope he's not overly discouraged by my
criticism here.  Hopefully the next release will feature better world-
building and the use of a spell-checker.

My score: 1

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Ralph"
-------
"Ralph" was short (3 puzzles), not too difficult, and fun.  I found this
one to be very cute, and it just oozes with charm (I smiled at
Christopher Robin and Blamant the Teddy, felt a certain sadness at
seeing Ralph's unkind owners, and laughed out loud at the fate of poor
Benny the Fluff Duck).

The writing is good, but sometimes seems geared toward a human's manner
of thinking rather than a dog's.  The glass sheet puzzle, for instance,
seemed slightly out of place in a game about a dog.  Further, the
descriptions of some objects lend a distinct air of anthropomorphism,
rather than a pure dog's-eye view of the world.  Would a dog really
think of a sheet of glass, or a man's pipe, with the same words as a
human?

A different approach to vocabulary (perhaps adopting Richard Adams'
technique of an animal language as seen in "Watership Down") might have
made me feel a bit more like a real dog, but there are still plenty of
doggy situations and doggy verbs to investigate.

"Ralph" may not be "top dog" this year, but I wouldn't be surprised if
it's one of the competition's most fondly remembered entries.  (Benny
the Fluff Duck, we hardly knew ye.)

My score: 6

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Reverberations"
----------------
Say what you want, but I LIKED this one!  The plot - pizza guy gets
caught up in battle with mafia and causes earthquake threatening to
destroy city while simultaneously building friendship with cute female
lawyer - has the look and feel of one of those really bad "Up All Night"
movies they show on Fridays and Saturdays on the USA network.  At 11:00
and 10:00, respectively.  Not that I actually WATCH those awful things.
Well, not usually.  Oh, okay, you caught me!  Happy?!

The puzzles in "Reverberations" are full of very text-adventure-like
situations, and the room descriptions consist largely of lists of exits,
but the rest of the text is just plain fun, and the answerable
rhetorical questions and southern-California dictionary provided with
the game provide many a laugh.  A couple of minor bugs (some of the
"amusing" commands don't seem to work properly), but nothing major to
gripe at.

A really fun way to kill half an hour or so.

My score: 6

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Rippled Flesh"
---------------
Another horror story that doesn't succeed at being creepy, although it
comes close once or twice if you let your imagination fill in the gaps
that the less-than-convincing text leaves.

There are a lot of puzzles that require guessing the author's manner of
thinking, and, though a couple were kind of neat, the game has the same
feel of "Punkirita", by the same author, with lots of incongruous ideas
slapped together, peppered with pop-culture references that don't seem
to fit.  (To the author: The first "Alien" movie was good, too.  It's
only the third one that sucked.  And the fourth, if they make it.)

The text file with the game explains that the author didn't know how to
implement some features, so I have a brief word for potential authors:
Don't be afraid to post requests for help on rec.arts.int-fiction.  We
were all new to Inform at some point.  (Even Graham Nelson, sort of.)

Finally, let me just urge players to stick with this game to the end.
Please, PLEASE don't deprive yourselves of the attempt at an explanation
for everything that happened during the course of the game.  It's a
major (unintentional) hoot, and I loved it so much I gave the game an
extra point!

Also, if you don't mind my asking: What's the DEAL with disco this year?
Both "Rippled Flesh" and "Phlegm" make use of it.  Is disco, as those
annoying music commercials claim, really "back and hotter than ever"?

 My score: 4

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Sir Ramic Hobbs and the Oriental Walk (Wok?)"
----------------------------------------------
First off, will someone please tell me whether the last word of this
game's title is "walk" or "wok"?  The game says "walk", the filenames
say "wok".  Also, is it "Sir Ramic Hobbs" or "Sir Ramric Hobbs"?  The
other game starring this character says "Sir Ramric".  I'm bumfuzzled.

Having never played the other Sir Ramic (Ramric?) Hobbs game, "Sir Ramic
Hobbs and the High-Level Gorilla", I can't comment on how this game
stacks up to its predecessor.  I can say, however, that it explores both
extremes of enjoyability.  The ability to shapeshift into different
animals was a lot of fun, and brought back fond memories of Infocom's
"Arthur".  It's funny, with clever object descriptions and commentary by
the game's parser, which assumes the persona of a wizard who follows you
about.  His comments are frequently witty taunting, but it's done good-
naturedly, unlike "Stalker".  This is much more entertaining than the
nameless, faceless entity that most adventure game parsers never rise
above (though "Lost New York" does come close).  The method of travel
(via armchair) is amusing.  Also, it's impossible to make the game
unsolvable.

My score was dragged down, however, by a great deal of typical AGT fare:
Incongruities, a lack of apparent plot until the very end, obscure
puzzles, a maze where one wasn't necessary, odd results when the author
didn't anticipate something (entering the library when invisible, for
instance, still gets you stopped by the librarian), and of course the
almanac puzzle.  Ohhhh, do not even get me STARTED on the almanac
puzzle.  After nearly an hour of wandering about, squinting in vain at
the teeny tiny letters on my screen, trying to deduce a compass
direction from them, then finding I'd made a wrong turn when I followed
the directions I DID find... blur-r-r-r-gh!

Half good, half bad, which means...

My score: 5

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Small World"
-------------
I'm not sure how fit I am to comment on this one, as I didn't finish it
completely.  Treat my opinion as worthless if you think it appropriate.

"Small World" is a nicely-programmed little work (at the outset anyway),
with an imaginative map layout and some nice features like the "sack
object" (its first appearance in a TADS game, if I'm not mistaken), a
"warning mode" like PTF's, and the direct elimination of a great many
useless verbs, which ends up saving a great deal of wasted typing
(programmers take note).

It also has a cute scoring system (earning percentages of a single
coveted point), one of the most amusing NPCs of the entire competition
(the devil), and some theological issues that got me thinking.

Now for the bad part.  After my getting about 18% of the point, plot
advancement abruptly ground to a screeching halt, reducing the
remainder of my playing experience to the following:

"Okay, the hint system tells me that I'm making progress simply by
moving around.  Wandering around... yep, wandering around... no visible
progress...
        >HINT
Still says that moving around makes progress... Hoooooo-KAYyyyyy...
wandering around some more... la de da de dee... still no visible
progress... doot de doot, hmm hmm hmm... nope, not yet... maybe if I
wander around in a slightly different manner?... huh-uh, no change...
noon, afternoon, twilight, evening, midnight, gloaming, dawn...
aaaaaaand back again... dawn, gloaming, midnight, evening, twilight,
afternoon, noon... still wandering around... I must be making a LOT of
progress now... Damn, time's up."

My score: 5

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Stargazer"
-----------
The author admits that this is a prologue for a much longer game, and
as that it succeeds perfectly, with easy puzzles to set up Ali for his
quest, and a limited area to explore at the outset.  The layout (a
village with townspeople to interact with) reminded me of my own "Path
to Fortune".

Some clever, obscure name references, if you can find them (Keraptis,
for instance, is the name of a winged beast from the "Pirates of Dark
Water" cartoon serial of a few years back).  All in all, though, it's
pretty standard fantasy stuff, remaining relatively enjoyable without
breaking any new ground (or trying to, for that matter).  But given the
current opinions toward D&D-based fantasy I-F, perhaps it's for the
best that the game in its entirety was never finished.

My score: 5

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Tapestry"
----------
This is the first one I played (if that makes a difference).

I loved the writing in "Tapestry", particularly the purgatorial prologue
scenes.  Vivid and absorbing, the prose makes you feel, which is rare
for I-F.  The author of this game seems to have put the most effort into
his writing of any of the Inform entries, as indicated by the fact that
it's both the longest Inform entry and one of the shortest actual games.

The depth comes from the "fiction" aspect, not the "interactive" aspect.
All the interactive scenes are short and small and offer relatively
little room for experimentation, since the major choices you must make
are limited to one of two paths.  Still, I'm a sucker for multiple
endings.

Most surprising to me: Neither of the paths is decidedly "better" than
the other.  Doing what the web-weavers say changes nothing, but gives
Timothy an impression of strength and willingness to accept what has
been done.  Doing what Morningstar says is right always ends in someone
else's tragedy.  Yet the insightful, non-judgmental epilogue makes
either choice feel proper in the grand scheme of events, adding depth to
the otherwise simplistic plot.

All in all, a nicely polished entry, with imaginative characters, and a
story that could do with perhaps a bit more overall interactivity.
Daniel Ravipinto is either a new author to watch closely, or a
pseudonym, and if he's the latter I'm dying to know his true identity.

My score: 8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Wearing the Claw"
------------------
Last but not least.

I'm torn with this one.  Using the changing hand as a marker for the
player's progress is very imaginitive, but this doesn't quite mask the
game's overall linearity.  Still, there are enough red herrings to keep
it from being immediately apparent, and there is a nice re-use of
puzzles, building on the previous challenges, particularly with the
enchanted coat.

The author comments that the claw was inspired by the desire to create a
game without a scoring system, as he feels scores make I-F feel too much
like a game rather than a story.  I'm not sure I agree entirely with the
author's intentions here.  I personally use the score as a means of
reassuring myself that I haven't just botched the game entirely (though
of course it's not 100% effective).  The truth is, nearly every game 've
seen to date has an optimum ending, the "real" ending to the game tht
closes the story as the author sees best.  Scoring is the easiest ofa
very few ways to let the player know when that ending has been reachd.
If a game is designed in such a way as to allow plotting without scoe,
that's wonderful, but otherwise I don't think I-F should be penalize
for failing to comply with this standard.  A lot of games use the
scoring system effectively, even artistically.

I sort of got off track there, didn't I?  Well, it'll give us something
more to debate.  Overall, "Wearing the Claw" is a nice
middle-of-the-road entry.

My score: 6

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's see... 15 of the entries I rated 6 or higher, so it seems the
overall quality of entries is improving... 26 entries total, but I don't
see 5 by female authors, so it doesn't look like the free "Circle"
registrations will be awarded.  (Good thing too, because it looks like
we're putting the project on hold.)

Well, that's enough for one night.  I'm outta here.  ('Bout time, huh?)

--
C.E. Forman                                    ceforman@worldnet.att.net
Read XYZZYnews at http://www.interport.net/~eileen/design/xyzzynews.html
Vote I-F in 1996!  Visit http://www.xs4all.nl/~jojo/index.html for info!
"Circle of Armageddon", Vol. 2 of "The Windhall Chronicles" -- ?????????
Classic I-F FS/T in Ye Olde Infocomme Shoppe!  (Mail for current stock.)




From ceforman@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Sat Nov 23 01:23:12 CET 1996
Article: 19103 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: "C.E. Forman" <ceforman@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: [CONTEST]  Here's what I think...
Date: 22 Nov 1996 00:48:03 GMT
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ATTENTION!

This post contains short discussions and evaluations of each and every
one of the 1996 I-F competition entries.  If you haven't played them
all, you might want to save this post and come back to it later.  These
are not in-depth analyses, but brief recordings of what I was thinking
after I'd finished each one.  Further commentary will undoubtedly follow
as more players begin posting.

Keep in mind that these reviews are only my opinions, and should not be
construed as being factual in any way. My scores do NOT represent the
order in which the games will ultimately be placed.  If you disagree
with me, post your own opinions.  That's the whole point.  I've tried
unsuccessfully to elicit e-mail discussion with several people, but
they didn't respond, so I'm posting here to recruit people who will.

If you're one of those people who don't want to discuss the entries
until the votes are in, I'd advise against reading any further.  If
you're only reading this to find out which games I think are the best,
I ask you to please give them all a fair play.  I have played all the
entries as much as possible, and have spent the necessary two hours (and
no more) on the ones that have the depth to merit such playing time.

My ratings are based on an even combination of technical and artistic
quality, and I tried my best to avoid basing an opinion on the genre and
general subject matter.  Bugs impacted my scores slightly, but not
overly significantly, provided that the rest of the work was solid.  No
scores were impacted at all by the authoring system used, but I did
detract points for failure to comply with ease-of-use features that are
generally considered mandatory today.

This year's entries vary greatly in subject matter, technical
difficulty, artistic ability, and overall quality, but I'm very pleased
to see so many of them.  Even the authors whose games I rate with low
scores deserve a round of applause simply for entering.  Congratulations
to everyone!

That said, here's what I thought...







[ SPOILER SPACE ]









------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Aayela"
--------
Ah, Magnus Olsson is sneaky, using an attention-getting device similar
yet opposite to the one used by the (dull) AGT game "Zanfar".  "Zanfar"
has a name that places it last in an alphabetic directory listing, so
that it's the last title a player sees, thus making it remain fresh in
his/her mind.  Magnus' tactic is the opposite.  He gives his game a name
that places it FIRST, in the hopes of grabbing the advantage from
players who go through all the entries in alphabetical order, thus
leaving no prior work for players to compare his entry to.  Well, it
didn't work on me!  I saw through your little plot, Magnus, and I made
it a point to play "Aayela" DEAD LAST, so that I could effectively
compare it to EVERYTHING!!  AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

*Ahem.*  Well.

"Aayela" is set in the land of Vyhl, visited by your character at the
end of Magnus' 1995 entry "Uncle Zebulon's Will".  That said, I guess I
expected a more obvious continuation of "Zebulon", in the shoes of the
same character, uncovering more of the same mystical land while perhaps
getting a chance to meet my eccentric uncle Zeb.  Instead I found myself
assuming the role of another young (expendable) unknown set off to seek
out the standard adventure-game McGuffin, in this case the Stone of
Aayela.

As in "Zebulon", Magnus' writing shines.  (Does so, Gareth!)  Like the
vanished Zebulon with whom a rapport was forged in "Aayela"'s prequel,
the imprisoned spirit of Aayela guides the player forward and develops
into a part of him.  This is paced nicely, with the unique setting of
total darkness for much of the quest.

Unfortunately, this mars the realism created by the rest of the
writing.  The room text is sometimes no more than standard cave
descriptions preceded by the words "It's completely dark."  The
protagonist's sense of direction must be uncanny, to allow him to
navigate with no light by which to see his compass.  There's no threat
of danger, either, until the very end, after which I was left with a
feeling of, "You mean that's IT?!"

I liked "Aayela", don't get me wrong.  I simply didn't find it as clever
as Magnus' previous work, particularly when compared with so many other
outstanding entries this year.

My score: 6

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Alien Abduction?"
------------------
It's hard to believe that this is the very first serious game about
aliens.  Oh, there have been the pulp sci-fi offerings ("LGOP", for
instance), and the typical plot-forming UFO abduction (as seen in
"Waystation", "Plague Planet", and "Lost"), but I can't recall ever
seeing a work of I-F that deals with the anomaly from a standpoint that
does justice to the phenomenon.

Overall, the story is quite linear, with a number of plot points
slightly less than intuitive.  The quality of prose fluctuates.  Most
disappointing is the interior of the ship, which offers simply a bland
description of how you're in a place you never expected to be, leaving
few details for the imagination to work with.  Other bits, such as the
click of an automaton's eyes and the ripping of a wire from your neck,
never failed to make my skin crawl.  Puzzles range from subtle (the
conversations with NPCs, which allow the aliens to adjust their illusion
of your world) to blatantly gratuitous (the colored shapes aboard the
ship, and the crystal duck in the woods) and a number of tasks which
never quite escape the "give <x> to <y>" feel.  Most are enjoyable
regardless.

Particularly enjoyable is the fact that the ending leaves you uncertain
as to what really happened, hence the question mark in the game's title.
Was it really an alien encounter?  Or might you have really lost your
mind?  Which seems more probable?  Also, it's truly creepy how the
aliens use your thoughts to build and expand the artificial reality
they've trapped you in.  I congratulate the author for this inventive
work of I-F.

And I'll congratulate myself as well.  I got through this whole review
without even once mentioning "The X-Files."  Oop- DAMN!!

My score: 7

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Curse of Eldor"
--------------------
A for-the-most-part nice old-style adventure game with the vastness
and anachronistic amalgamation of magic and technology.  The atmosphere
is very Zorkish, as are the puzzles.  There's a balloon, a dragon, a
retired grue, a magic potion, an eating cycle (not a problem once you
find out where the food is), some guesswork puzzles, one suicide puzzle
(Is it my imagination, or is there a lot of suicide among this year's
entries - "Eldor", "In The End", "Rippled Flesh", "Delusions"?), some
clever bits, a dash of guess-the-verb, and an overall quest for curse-
breaking artifacts that in the end really amounts to a simplified
treasure hunt.  A fine example of this type of adventure, though it
offers nothing we haven't seen before.

The game engine, however, could use some work.  Ambiguous verb
resolution (that is, the ability to fill in the missing command
information) doesn't work at all, there's no "UNDO", no "AGAIN", no
command recall, not even "VERBOSE" (for me, the most annoying of all).
"Eldor" has some rather glaring bugs as well.  Trying to take the amulet
from the dragon is a fatal move, but restarting completes the command
successfully, eliminating a large string of puzzles.  "SAVE" and
"RESTORE" also gave me some problems, placing me in a room with all the
takeable objects only to kill me off one turn later.  This made me
reluctant to play through on my own, and eventually I resorted to the
walkthrough.

A major detriment is the fact that, even ignoring the "RESTORE" flaws,
the game is still thoroughly impossible without the walkthrough, unless
you're a darn good guesser.  Four or five locations contain items or
characters that aren't even mentioned!  In the very first room, for
instance, a historian is waiting with a note for you, but there's no
indication whatsoever of his presence!  This, along with the crystal in
the locked chest, the thief in the dungeon, the goblin in the sewers
below town, all make the game a pain to finish, especially since one has
to restart the game (because of the "RESTORE" bug) each time the
walkthrough is consulted.

My score: 5
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Delusions"
-----------
One of the competition's weirdest, and easily the most genuinely
frightening game since "A Mind Forever Voyaging".  Discovering your true
nature is very creepy and for the most part well-paced, though it bogs
down a lot in the endgame.  Characters are imaginative but (except for
Morrodox) underdeveloped.  Clever, bizarre, philosophical, and full of
the theory of reality vs. unreality vs. virtual reality.  A layered
plot, delving into the nature of I-F itself sometimes, and tons of
hidden references to other games.  Some similarities to "Alien
Abduction?" (the implants, the idea of being trapped in a simulation of
the world you know), but both entries are strong enough and different
enough to stand on their own.

Some truly hilarious bits: the Jeopardy show and some of the things you
find in the basement are destined for the list of truly great I-F
moments, and the graphical Windows-like interface is the best computer
puzzle since "CosmoServe".  The game's one fatal aspect (and the only
thing that keeps me from rating it a 9) is what appears to be a bug that
keeps Dr. Shimada from talking to you during the endgame, thus making
the game unwinnable.  If you encounter this fault, starting over and
playing through again fixed it for me (though I can't explain why).

Aside from this technical anomaly, its only downside is the fact that I
think the author tried to cram way too much into a two-hour game (and
even calling it a two-hour game is a big stretch).  Still, it holds
together pretty well, and merits a replay or two.

Who wrote this anyway?  And can anyone tell me why I can only seem to
get 49 out of 50 points?

My score: 8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Don't Be Late"
---------------
This is the first ALAN game by someone other than the authors (that
I've heard of, anyway).  It's a quickie, with a neat bit of self-
reference at the end.  The ALAN system has some irritations (the
acceptance of the verb "TAKE", but not of "GET", for instance), but
you'll finish it in perhaps 15 minutes anyway.  There's nothing
inherently wrong with it, it's just really short and really simplistic.
I'd give a higher score if it were a bit more substantial.

Hmm.  Not much else to say.

My score: 3

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Fear"
------
An imaginative exercise in using memories and symbolic puzzle-solving
to overcome your fears of heights, sounds, spiders, and the dark.  The
puzzles are, for the most part, refreshingly unique, and difficult.  You
really have to envision the scenes in your mind to win.  In particular,
the 4-octave chord was very ingenious.  These puzzles are HARD, though,
and I ended up sneaking a peek at most of their hints in order to finish
the game within two hours.

Unlike "House of the Stalker" and "Rippled Flesh", "Fear" presents a
more psychological, self-confrontational horror, also seen in "Shades of
Gray" and this year's entries "Tapestry" and "Delusions".  "Fear" isn't
quite as gripping as any of these, but it's a creepy, paranoid game with
an ending that leaves just enough to the imagination to keep the player
slightly ill at ease.

My score: 7

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"House of the Stalker"
----------------------
After seeing the title, and considering that Halloween was just around
the corner at the time, I had really high hopes for this one.
Unfortunately, there is a great deal of clumsy phrasing, and the author
seems to be unable to decide what style to go with.  A sort of snide,
smart-alecky, and sometimes downright insulting personality pervades the
text, and yet occasionally the game tries to convey a feeling of
melancholy in your character's life.  The plot is corny, suggesting a
parody, but I never felt quite certain about the author's intent.

The two styles are often contradictory (in one sentence you're told how
much you miss your children, in another the game sighs about how "those
dumb kids never made their bed"), which mars the attempt at personality.
The atmosphere never feels particularly creepy, as in "Theatre", mainly
because the game constantly jokes about the psycho who's probably
downstairs right now waiting to kill you.  The puzzles deal primarily
with doing the right thing to the stalker at the right time, which means
there's a lot of "guess what I'm thinking" to wade through.

Particularly irritating is the fact that, when you try to kill the
stalker before spraying him, tying him up, etc., you get the customary
"Violence isn't the answer" message.  (So what IS?  "Please Mr.
Soulless Psychotic Flesh-Rending Organ-Devouring Killer, can't we just
learn to co-exist"?)  The stalker himself, I theorize, must have been
that guy from the music store in "Detective", since he vanishes as soon
as you kill him.

"Stalker" feels a lot like one of those AGT games where the author
didn't implement everything necessary to make the game flow smoothly,
and indeed a number of glaring signs suggests that this author didn't
completely have a grasp of Inform.  These include impossible verb
resolutions, the reference to "a electric screwdriver", and several bits
lifted directly from other Inform games - the instructions from Inform's
port of "Adventureland", the compass rose from the Inform Programming
Page, and the games "Robots" and "Freefall" (though I guess that was the
point with the last two).  Decreasing the score after using the hint
system is a clever idea, but unfortunately this effect can be bypassed
with the "UNDO" command.

I don't mean to sound overly harsh, but I think this one could have
been, and should have been, a LOT scarier (even if done as a parody).

My score: 3

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In The End"
------------
The author calls this the first attempt at puzzle-less I-F, though this
is debatable (and has been debated).  Does it succeed?  I'd have to say
not quite.  But it tries very hard.

I think what some people overlook is the fact that, as puzzle-less I-F
is so inherently different than I-F with puzzles, two different sets of
default messages are needed.  Why should you be told "You find nothing
interesting" in a game when you're not even SUPPOSED to be searching for
hidden goodies?  Another response is definitely needed here, as well as
with other verbs.

Further, a couple of guess-the-syntax problems crept up while I was
playing - inside the car, "LET WOMAN IN" works, but "OPEN THE PASSENGER
DOOR" or "ROLL DOWN THE WINDOW" fail.  Trying to figure out the proper
syntax constitutes a puzzle, in my opinion (and a rather annoying puzzle
at that).  This breaks both the realism and the flowing of the plot, and
hence it doesn't quite appear puzzle-less.

Even the final move ("KILL ME") wasn't easy to deduce.  The funeral was
certainly depressing, and I'd had some real disappointments (with Annie,
in the convenience store, etc.), but I certainly wasn't contemplating
suicide, and the author didn't make me feel the need or desire to.
Again, I had to guess at his intentions to figure out how to advance the
plot, which makes this seem like a puzzle.

One thing I did like was the imaginative method of navigating from place
to place.  A compass-less game is not a unique thing in I-F, but it's
not easy to do, and I applaud the effort there.  All things considered,
this was an interesting experiment, but, even ignoring the guessing
puzzles, it was also very short, and didn't quite convince me of the
feasibility of larger puzzle-less I-F games.  Maybe I'll give it a whirl
myself, though.

"A" for effort, "C+" for results.

My score: 6

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Kissing the Buddha's Feet"
---------------------------
An instant classic.  Your goal is to help roommate John study and
finally pass that psych class after 12 long semesters.  John's friends
have a different agenda, though, so you must get rid of them and any
other distractions around the house.

Every single character is hilarious, from the unresponsive Carl to the
eternally drunk Bob, and even your own character exhibits a compulsive
cleanliness that rivals Howard Hughes.  My personal fave: Evan, the god
of thoroughly useless trivia, who follows you around, constantly
spouting drivel on anything that strikes his fancy - a pet parrot he
once had, the origin of the game's curious title, speculations about
what the world would be like if it were like a text adventure, error
messages to improperly phrased commands, and so much more.  The
characters offer a wide variety of optional interactivity to fill the
two-hour time allotment, and there's even a trivia game that provides
some side-splitting references to other text adventures.

The setting, though collegiate, is nonetheless unique.  By focusing on
the personalities of John's friends, and interlacing them with some
extremely imaginative puzzles, "Kissing" avoids the pitfalls and cliches
of the college I-F genre and makes for genuine entertainment.  This game
is bust-a-gut funny and very well-implemented, making it my personal
choice for first place.  Many of this year's entries are very strong in
one area, but flawed in others - "Tapestry" occasionally feels too much
like hyperfiction, "Delusions" is buggy, "In the End" didn't offer me
enough story, - but this game excels in all areas.  Truly fantastic.  I
can't remember the last time I laughed so hard.

Wait a minute... I guess I can.  It was when I played the last game by
this author.  (Yes, I correctly guessed who wrote this, but at Kevin
Wilson's request I'll keep quiet for the moment.)

My score: 9

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Land Beyond the Picket Fence"
----------------------------------
Here's an interesting twist on fantasy games.  Rather than making you,
the protagonist, a denizen of a fantasy world, "Fence" casts you as an
outsider from the "real" world, and sends you into the fantasy to
accomplish a goal and escape.  To me, this lends more appeal to the
atmosphere and makes the adventure decidedly charming.
The world itself is far more Carroll than Tolkien, and the difference
shines through (though there's nothing inherently wrong with traditional
I-F fantasy as it currently stands).  The perfect length, nice prose, a
couple of clever puzzles, and a surprisingly good parser and DOS-based
game engine.  It doesn't break any new ground, and it's not "Uncle
Zebulon's Will", but it carries the same spirit and it made me want to
visit the land beyond the picket fence again soon.

My score: 6

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Lists and Lists"
-----------------
So THIS is what Andrew Plotkin meant when he announced that his entry
this year wouldn't be interactive fiction.

He wasn't kidding.  Aside from the genie who (sort of) guides you
through, there is little prose, not much interaction with an artificial
world, and even less storytelling.  Players expecting another "Change
in the Weather" or "So Far" are bound to be disappointed.  Instead, the
bulk of this "game" is a stripped-down interpreter for Scheme, a
streamlined derivative of LISP.

This makes for an intereating use of the Z-Machine, and a nice
complement to the likes of "Robots", "Z-Life", and Andrew's own
"Freefall", but it's really more for programmers, or persons at least
interested in the subject.  I've heard from non-programmers who didn't
get much out of it, some of whom became hopelessly confused.

This is not to fault Plotkin's skills as a writer.  Indeed, he has a
knack for making this sort of thing fun for players possessing the
natural aptitude for it.  (Even "Inhumane", his attempt at I-F as a
14-year-old, as its moments.)  Although "Lists" barely scratches the
surface of Scheme's capabilities, I was surprised by how much
functionality was crammed into such a small program, particularly with
the ease-of-use features.  Even if you complete all of the sample
exercises within the two-hour time limit, there's plenty more to come
back and investigate afterwards.  I'm dying to see the Inform source
code for this.

Now if only Activision would give us Infocom's ZIL compiler and docs
(ZIL being the LISP-like language used by Infocom's programmers), I
might have a real-world application for this, and a motivation to learn
more about the subjects presented here.

My score: 6 or 7, I can't decide. (Somebody help me out. (No, not YOU,
          Plotkin.))

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Maiden of the Moonlight"
-------------------------
A haunted mansion story whose plot is revealed through object
descriptions as well as room text - sort of "Theatre" meets "Uncle
Zebulon's Will" with a dash of "Curses".  Some genuine atmosphere and a
good deal of backstory despite the fact that some room descriptions are
simply lists of exits.  It's a pity I didn't get to this one until after
Halloween.

Simple but clever puzzles, with the only annoyance being the very,
VERY forced method of getting the perfume bottle over the fence.  (Was
this necessary?)  I liked having to piece together solutions from the
writings, books, and room descriptions, though there's the occasional
guesswork.  Unfortunately, there seems to be some sort of problem with
saved games.  Two or three times, the game would hang when I tried to
restore, and the save file became corrupt.  As the two-hour limit
approached, I used the walkthrough to see the game in its entirety.

My score: 6

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Meteor, the Stone and a Long Glass of Sherbet"
---------------------------------------------------
This one's sort of "Zork", "Enchanter", and "Christminster", but sort of
not.  I can't really decide for sure what to call it.  Even the author
doesn't seem to be certain about what type of game this is supposed to
be.  It's identified in the byline as "The Interactive Memoirs of a
Diplomat", but aside from the opening procession and the very end,
there's little to connect the game to this description.  In between, the
game is a jumble of unmotivated treasure-hunting, applied spellcasting,
and spelunking.

Not that this is necessarily bad.  All things considered, it's a pretty
solid historical-based fantasy, though the author's visions (as seen in
the hints) will undoubtedly be lost on many players.  "Zork" and
"Enchanter" are mixed nicely into the plot, but "Sherbet" still suffers
from the problems inherent in Infocom's spell-casting games.  I know
I've said this before, but having to memorize spells before casting them
is a pain.  It was great in the 1980s, but like mazes, it's worn out its
welcome.  If anyone else is planning on a game of this type, please
consider a system of casting magic straight from the book or scroll.

The spells themselves are sometimes derived from the "Enchanter" trilogy
- "gloth" and "azzev" ("vezza" backwards) show up - but "frotz" is
replaced by "chiaro", which took a bit of getting used to.  There is lso
one very annoying parsing problem: Typing "X SPELL BOOK" instead prits
out an ambiguity-resolution query, asking which spell you mean, whil
"READ SPELL BOOK" lists your entire repertoire of magic. Trivial,
admittedly, but it turned up a lot.

The writing, however, is well-polshed and flowing, with no grammatical
errors and few typos.  In fact, the prose is SO good that I forgot about
most of the above imperfections until the game was finished, when I
found myself feeling a bit empty.  I guess after seeing the opening I
expected too much political intrigue, but instead received a dungeon
crawl.  It IS a very entertaining one, but strangely devoid of Zorkish
elements, aside from the white house and adventurer.  (Where are the
grues?  The elvish sword?  The Flatheads?  "Hello Sailor"?)
 
Speaking of finishing the game, that took the full two hours, because
this is a hard one with a lot of experimental guesswork required.  I
doubt it would be possible in two hours without the hints.  I'm still a
point short of the full score, with no idea how to get it.  Anyone?

My score: 7

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"My First Stupid Game"
----------------------
A word of advice: Play this game sometime when you really have to pee.
As one speaking from experience, I can say that it adds a LOT.

That said, it's an absurd little game with simplistic puzzles - locks,
darkness, feeding animals, searching things - and a warped sense of
humor which I found strangely appealing.  Artistic it most certainly is
not, nor is it anything more than a smattering of I-F situations with
the most bare-bones plot attached.  (In what other form of writing would
an author even _think_ of hiding a BEAR in a secret room behind
someone's Sammy Haggar poster?)

It's nice to see that the alt.tv.barney.die.die.die folks are still
alive and kicking.  Also, I liked the fact that the final puzzle was
optional.  But... did I really have to tear up the picture of Barney
AFTER I did my business all over it?  Eww.

Here's hoping the author's SECOND stupid game will be a bit less...
well, stupid.

My score: 3



[CONTINUED IN NEXT ARTICLE]

--
C.E. Forman                                    ceforman@worldnet.att.net
Read XYZZYnews at http://www.interport.net/~eileen/design/xyzzynews.html
Vote I-F in 1996!  Visit http://www.xs4all.nl/~jojo/index.html for info!
"Circle of Armageddon", Vol. 2 of "The Windhall Chronicles" -- ?????????
Classic I-F FS/T in Ye Olde Infocomme Shoppe!  (Mail for current stock.)




From nulldogma@aol.com Sat Nov 23 16:03:45 CET 1996
Article: 19110 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!mr.net!news.idt.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: nulldogma@aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: [CONTEST] And what I think...
Date: 22 Nov 1996 16:58:50 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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X-Admin: news@aol.com

Well, since C.E. Forman has opened the floodgates, I might as well post my
remarks on each game -- though they're nowhere near as in-depth as his
reviews. (I didn't even have time to play all the entries, much less write
full reviews of them all...)

I've tried to avoid outright spoilers for those who haven't finished all
the games, but PLEASE: DO NOT READ THIS UNTIL YOU'VE FINALIZED YOUR OWN
VOTES. The following are my opinions, and mine alone, and should not
influence anyone else's votes.

Speaking of which, a note on my own scoring: I made an early decision to
vote on a curve, with the best game getting a 10, the worst a 1. (This
will, heh heh heh, maximize my voting power.) Since I liked a handful of
games so much better than the bulk of them, this made for some pretty
skewed scores towards the bottom of the scale. A quick translation would
be:

10: Couldn't get enough of it
7-8: Liked it a whole lot
4-5: Major flaws, but had plenty to redeem it 
3: Tolerable, but had to struggle to keep playing
1-2: Back to beta-testing

And finally, I voted entirely according to my tastes. If I came across an
entry that I absolutely loathed, but thought others might like okay, I
still gave it a 1. Let those other people give it a high score, and cancel
me out.

So, on to my votes (in alphabetical order):









[REMEMBER: DON'T READ BEYOND HERE UNLESS YOU'VE ALREADY VOTED]














7 Aayela
Really easy (I never even thought about consulting the walkthrough), but
entertaining enough. And even though I've grown to hate this sword &
sorcery-style genre, the story and writing here were good enough that I
didn't mind. 

2 Alien Abduction
Oy. What kind of aliens test your intelligence by asking you to play a
game of Mastermind? Add in nonsensical puzzles (don't talk to me about
that damn duck), rooms that don't list all their exits, and a dozen easy
ways to unknowingly get the game into a winnable state, and the hackneyed
plot becomes the least of this game's problems.

3 Beyond the Picket Fence
Nothing much bad to say about this game, but nothing much to say for it,
either. Might make a nice first game for a beginning player.

X Delusions
Started this one, decided it needed more attention than I had to give,
then never had time to get back to it. (But given my scoring scheme, my
not voting on a game could be to its advantage...)

X Don't Be Late
Never was able to get the Alan runtime successfully downloaded.

X Eldor
Unplayable on my Mac, even under SoftWindows.

4 Fear
Well-written and engaging, but the puzzles are impossible (including
another gratuitous logic-game adaptation) and poorly implemented (you
can't UNTIE the string, you can only UNRAVEL it). Another one where I
couldn't have managed anything without the hints.

1 House of the Stalker
Leaving aside the questions of the moral implications of the story, and of
that infernal trapdoor, whatever sense of terror the author was trying to
impart to me ("nobody in their right mind would go down there without some
sort of weapon") were shattered when I was able to walk straight down the
stairs and rattle around the ground floor of my house without any
difficulty. 

4 In the End
A nice idea, but it fails. Maybe if there were a bit more area to explore
(or a bit more depth to the conversations you can carry on), but as-is
it's just an unfinished short story in I-F form. (Unlike a lot of people,
I figured out the "solution" on my own, but that many players were
confused illustrates the difficulty of pulling off I-F where the only
"puzzle" is understanding a philosophical point.)

8 Kissing the Buddha's Feet
Didn't get too far in this (though I plan to go back to it), but enjoyed
it a lot anyway -- if there were a "best NPCs" prize, it'd win it hands
down. Had the wacky feel of a Jacob Weinstein game, though I have no idea
whether Jacob was in fact the author.

3 Lists and Lists
If I wanted to learn LISP, this would get a 10. I don't want to learn
LISP.

X Maiden of the Moonlight
Another one that I just never got around to playing enough for a vote.

X My First Stupid Game
Unplayable on my Mac, even under SoftWindows.

2 Of Forms Unknown
I want to like this game. Really, I do. But between the bugs and the (yes,
again) incomprehensible puzzles (does Graham's bill of rights say anything
about the right to be able to understand puzzles' solutions at least
*after* you've solved them?), this is the highest score I can manage.
(Also, Chris -- possibly unknowingly -- stole my down jacket puzzle from
MacWesleyan. Bad Chris.)

X Phlegm
First the name scared me. Then the llama feed did. I'll get back to this
one eventually.

X Piece of Mind
Sorry, but first-person past tense was just too jarring for me.

X Promoted!
Unplayable on my Mac.

1 Punkirita Quest One Liquid
He wanted to finish last, and from the little I played of this game, he's
well deserving of it.

5 Ralph
Another example of a great idea with terrible puzzles. I loved wandering
around as Ralph, but of the three tasks I needed to perform, only one made
any sense, even after I looked them up in the hints.

2 Reverberations
It's not as bad as Detective. Really it isn't. But it's damned close. I
was charmed a bit by this city of corrupt politicians and strangely
privatized district attorneys, where an empty pizza box gets you
admittance anywhere and there's always an earthquake just around the
corner. But charm only goes so far, in this case a "2".

1 Rippled Flesh
See Punkirita.

X Sir Ramic Hobbs and the Oriental Wok
This *would* run under SoftWindows, but what little I saw of it didn't
justify running SoftWindows just to play it. (Not much would.)

4 Small World
Nice fantastical world (sort of like being The Little Prince with a
devilish version of the genie from Aladdin as your sidekick), but what on
earth (or wherever) is going on? Gave up early and played this one
straight through with the hints, as it was clear none of the puzzles were
even slightly comprehensible, except after the fact. (The final puzzle, in
fact, may be the most unfair since Dave Baggett's "+=3".)

X Stargazer
Yet another game that didn't get my requisite two hours.

1 Tapestry
Can you say *heavy-handed*? By the end of the prologue (at least I think
it eventually ended), I was ready to kill that stupid angel, myself, and
the author. (Hey, maybe if this game were combined with In The End...) I
should probably give it some points for being well implemented, but I
don't have to, and so I won't.

10 The Meteor, the Stone, and a Long Glass of Sherbet
The standout of this year's competition. Outstanding writing, incredible
depth for a relatively short game, puzzles that were puzzling but
sensible, a nice blend of author-controlled story and player-controlled
action. Not really deserving of a perfect score (there are a few
guess-the-verb implementation problems), but this game is so much more
*fun* than all the others that it had to get the maximum. 

4 Wearing the Claw
Yet another game where I kept giving up and resorting to the hints in
order to get the story to progress. It's a nice story (though again, I'm
sick to death of the genre), but I still couldn't figure out what I was
supposed to be doing three-quarters of the time. Better-integrated puzzles
would make this a 6 or 7.



Neil
---------------------------------------------------------
Neil deMause                            neild@echonyc.com
                  http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/neild.html
---------------------------------------------------------


From spidell@ix.netcom.com Thu Nov 28 10:49:23 MET 1996
Article: 19155 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: "Tom Spidell" <spidell@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Ballyhoo comments
Date: 26 Nov 1996 05:45:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Nov 25 11:45:32 PM CST 1996
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155

I've been playing Infocom's Ballyhoo, and something struck me as
interesting.  At one point, Ballyhoo refers to an "Eddie Murphy contest." 
Later, it refers to "New Coke" and later again to "Old Coke".

What struck me as odd about these passages is that they all dated Ballyhoo
as a mid-eighties game.  Of course, Ballyhoo IS a mid-eighties game, but I
don't recall any other Infocom games referencing the time in which they
were written quite so explicitly.  In fact, that's one of the things
Infocom did best: immerse you in an alternate time as well as place.

My question: Can anyone recall other passages in Infocom games that
similarly date the time the program was written?

Tom Spidell
spidell@ix.netcom.com



From c128user@GTI.Net Thu Nov 28 10:49:50 MET 1996
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From: "Glenn P.," <c128user@GTI.Net>
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Subject: Re: Ballyhoo comments
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On 26-Nov-1996, Tom Spidell wrote:

> ...Can anyone recall other passages in Infocom games that... date
> the time the program was written?

Yes, try "Hitchhiker's Guide...". In your (Arthur Dent's) bedroom at
the beginning of the game (after getting rid of your hangover) enter
the command: PHONE HOME.

The response, if I recall, is: "Who do you think you are, E.T.?" THAT
pretty much dates THAT, wouldn't you say???   ;)

--_____           "...We'll die if we have to, but not one second *earlier*
 {~._.~}      than we have to. Everyone has to die someday; there's no
 _( Y )_      escaping that, but *quitting* isn't compulsory."
(:_~*~_:)                         -- "Lucky Starr And The Oceans Of Venus",
 (_)-(_)      "Glenn P.,"                       ...By: Isaac Asimov (1954).
--------- <c128user@GTI.Net>



From sgranade@grumpy.phy.duke.edu Mon Dec  2 13:01:08 MET 1996
Article: 19166 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: sgranade@grumpy.phy.duke.edu (Stephen Granade)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: [CONTEST] First impressions, Pt 2
Date: 26 Nov 1996 16:04:02 GMT
Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA
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A continuation of the first message.  More spoiler space to come.
























Stargazer: Time worn plot--you're a young guy out to save the village.   
The characters are very two-dimensional.  A tiny game.  Might make a good  
introductory piece of IF, but needs polishing.

Beyond the Picket Fence: Cute game.  Escapist fantasy.  Nothing  
remarkable, but I like the home-brew program.

Aayela: Another fantasy.  Neat bit with the darkness.  Does the game exist  
for any reason other than to experiment with how darkness is handled in  
IF?

The House of the Stalker: Horror, in more ways than one.  "he has...raped  
and killed 8 women, and two men."?!?  As Arlo Guthrie said,  
"Father-rapers! Right there on the bench!"  The Huh-meter's needle is  
permanently bent.  This is becoming an exercise of "guess the verb."

Maiden of the Moonlight: Scottish fantasy.  A few too many locked door  
puzzles.  Why "cut grass" but not "search grass?"  Bad bugs are plaguing  
it--I know I have to make the Maiden appear in the attic, but she won't.

Promoted!: The point&click interface gets old after a while, since I type  
much faster than I use a mouse.  The puzzles are revealed by the list of  
verb possibilities given for each object.  Nice sendup of corporate life.

Reverberations: Slangy.  Some inconsistencies and missing scenery.  Why  
doesn't Jill care when I tell her about the thug?  And why doesn't this  
game know "down?"  Shades of "Detective."

Alien Abduction: Some jarring responses, such as telling me I have to get  
_out_ of the stump rather than off it before moving.  Hey, the aliens play  
Mastermind!  Another bit of evidence that all aliens care about is getting  
us to play abstract puzzle games.

Stephen

--
  Stephen Granade                | "It takes character to withstand the
  sgranade@phy.duke.edu          |  rigors of indolence."
  Duke University, Physics Dept  |    -- from _The Madness of King George_


From giner@xp.psych.nyu.edu Mon Dec  2 13:01:13 MET 1996
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From: Roger Giner-Sorolla <giner@xp.psych.nyu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Contest Capsules [SPOILERS ETC.]
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:54:35 -0500
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All right, all right, here are my takes on the contest entries.  Don't 
read the reviews unless you've sent in your votes, etc., or your eyeballs 
will turn into gooseberries.

==============================


  Well folks, here are my ratings and highly opinionated capsule reviews 
of those 1996 IF competition games that I could play on the Mac.  
  The rating system, 3 P's and 2 I's, reflects my own priorities for the 
contest, including a "last lousy point" for substantial innovation in the 
field.
"Prose" (3 pts) is for writing competence and style; "Plot" (2 pts) is 
for how satisfying the story aspects of the game are; "Puzzles" (2 pts) 
is for the quality and originality of the ways in which obstacles are 
vanquished and situations are investigated; "Interactivity" (2 pts) 
refers to how well the game handles alternate puzzle solutions, 
reasonable non-solution actions, and general curiosity about the 
environment; "Innovation" (1 pt) rewards departures from the typical 
forms, conventions, or subject matter of existing IF games. 

 1:#
 2:#
 3:##
 4:##
 5:###
 6:###
 7:####
 8:##
 9:###
10:#

  As this distribution of ratings shows, I liked this year's crop of 
games.  Given the large number of them, the best were better than last 
year's, but the worst were much, much worse.  My three runners-up 
included two entries embodying a fiction, rather than game, approach to 
IF; but the third was a well-done slapstick game I had lots of fun 
playing, and my favorite turned out to be a work that combined game 
elements and serious fiction writing exceptionally well.  As for the 
shoddy ones, I gave a booby-prize extra point to the two that amused me most.

  In the order I played them in, then, here they are.

================================================================================

The Meteor, The Stone and a Long Glass of Sherbet
In two words: Zork Tradition
Playing time: 2 hrs.
Finished? Nowhere near, even using hints.
Prose(3):3 Plot(2):1.5 Puzzles(2):1.5 Interactivity(2):1.5 Innovation(1):0
Score: 7.5 (8)
Comments: Very well-written and droll Zork Universe caper, with several 
twists on the originals.  Puzzles are good, but should admit more 
alternate syntax and solutions (ex.: throw sherbet works but not pour; 
you can't stand on the trunk to reach that out-of-the-way object).  More 
exploration- than plot-driven.

Lists
In two words: Very Educational
Playing time: 45 min.
Finished? Nope.
Prose(3):2.5 Plot(2):0 Puzzles(2):2 Interactivity(2):1 Innovation(1):1
Score: 6.5 (7)
Comments: An innovative use of Inform to teach another programming 
language, Scheme.  The "puzzles" (problems) are very well-done, at least 
the first two that I got through, and the implementation of Scheme is a 
tour de force.  It would have been better if the puzzles had been made 
into more of a story, though; and if it had been more of a progressive 
tutorial, instead of throwing the whole manual at you and giving you 
exercises.

In The End
In two words: Puzzleless, Depressing
Playing time: 2 hrs.
Finished? I think, but finishing isn't the point.
Prose(3):3 Plot(2):1 "Puzzles"(2):2 Interactivity(2):2 Innovation(1):1
Score: 9
Comments: Very innovative interactive story that avoids the pitfalls of 
"tree fiction."  No puzzles per se; curiosity is a sufficient motivator 
to keep playing and re-playing.  Lots of other adventure-game conventions 
dumped for the sake of realism.  Excellent writing and characterization, 
but the plot is a bit of an existentialist cop-out.

Aayela
In two words: Standalone Endgame
Playing time: 30 minutes, no hints.
Finished? Yes.
Prose(3):2 Plot(2):1 Puzzles(2):0.5 Interactivity(2):1.5 Innovation(1):0
Score: 5
Comments: A scenario with great moral and emotional implications that 
really should be the end of a much longer game, instead pops up at the 
end of an easy, engaging dungeon crawl in the dark.  Climax without 
crescendo, in a standard fantasy-quest setting.

Moon Maiden
In two words: Gothic Haunting
Playing time: 2 hours, several hints.
Finished? Almost.
Prose(3):2.5 Plot(2):1.5 Puzzles(2):1.5 Interactivity(2):1 Innovation(1):0
Score: 6.5 (7)
Comments: Furniture-heavy haunted-house adventure in auld Scotland, with 
many familiar gothic elements.  Puzzle types also familiar to long-time 
adventurers, but varied.  Some puzzles are picky solution-wise, and some 
surprises are "cruel" and unclued.  Nice use of time, magic, moonlight.

Alien Abduction
In two words: Twilight Zone
Playing time: 1 hour, extensive use of hints.
Finished? Yes.
Prose(3):2.5 Plot(2):1.5 Puzzles(2):0.5 Interactivity(2):1 Innovation(1):0
Score: 5.5 (6)
Comments: Abducted by pesky aliens and forced to solve their puzzles, you 
must find how to defeat them and escape. Story is strong, perhaps too 
strong -- much of what you have to do requires guessing the author's 
intent or using odd syntax, and the contraption puzzles just make no 
sense.  Several bugs, decent Appalachian setting, unsatisfying surprise 
ending.

Liquid
In two words: Oh Dear
Playing time: 15 minutes, solution used.
Finished? Yes.
Prose(3):0.5 Plot(2):0.5 Puzzles(2):0 Interactivity(2):0.5 Innovation(1):0
Score: 1.5 + 1 = 2.5 (3)
Unintentionally bizarre fantasy. Puzzles: two, both unfair, one very 
easy.  Lots of features that don't really make sense; prose that aims 
high but collapses in a mess of spelling, grammar, usage, typing and 
syntax errors.  One bonus point awarded for being enjoyably flawed.  
Quote: "As the water attempts its cruel defication of your body, it meats 
its enemy."

Kissing the Buddha's Feet
In two words: Collegiate Fun
Playing time: 1 hour, with some help from solution.
Finished? Yes.
Prose(3):3 Plot(2):1.5 Puzzles(2):2 Interactivity(2):2 Innovation(1):0
Score: 8.5 (9)
Slapstick scramble: silence distractions and eject annoying guests from 
your off-campus apartment so roomie can study.  Very humorous writing, 
situations, and snappy interpreter comebacks.  Puzzles are clever and 
comically frustrating.  Many Easter eggs, including full-fledged trivia 
game.  Mentions "mimesis."  One minor gripe: a couple of obvious 
solutions to the TV cord are ignored.

Phlegm
In two words: Excruciatingly Silly
Playing time: 30 minutes, hints needed
Finished? Yes.
Prose(3):2 Plot(2):0 Puzzles(2):0.5 Interactivity(2):0.5 Innovation(2):0
Score: 3
Absurdist, goofball adventure.  Are the puzzles unfair or just arbitrary 
and bizarre? Well, some clues are given, but they require a very peculiar 
mindset indeed.  Didn't have much fun playing this, in spite of the gonzo 
atmosphere.

Stargazer
In two words: Simple Prelude
Playing time: 20 minutes, no hints
Finished? Yes.
Prose(3):2 Plot(2):1  Puzzles(2):1 Interactivity(2):1 Innovation(2):0
Score: 5
Prelude to a fantasy quest: collect what you need in and around town to 
start adventuring.  Puzzles are very easy and pat; Windhall-like village 
could be better fleshed out interactively.  Good intro to IF for kids, 
perhaps.

Wearing the Claw
In two words: Fantasy Quest
Playing time: 45 minutes, no hints
Finished? Yes.
Prose(3):2 Plot(2):1.5  Puzzles(2):1 Interactivity(2):1 Innovation(2):0
Score: 5.5 (6)
Surprisingly easy save-the-village fantasy game, but with decent plot and 
theme.  Interesting curse, lots and lots of red herrings, a few simple 
puzzles (though not the most logical, sometimes).  

Don't Be Late
In two words: That's It?
Playing time: 15 minutes, no hints
Finished? Yes.
Prose(3):2 Plot(2):1.5 Puzzles(2):0 Interactivity(2):0 Innovation: 0.5
Score: 4
Cute everyday-life game with mildly inventive twist ending.  Extremely 
short, puzzles are much too common-sense, race against time isn't even 
close.  Annoying ALAN parser.

Rippled Flesh
In two words: Barringer Lives!
Playing time: A near eternity
Finished? Yes, but nowhere near maximum score.
Prose(3):0.5 Plot(2):0 Puzzles(2):0 Interactivity(2):0 Innovation: 0
Score: 0.5 (1)
Pointless horror-house crawl with no visible puzzles: just a series of 
intractable features that have a hard time even fitting in the 
stream-of-consciousness "plot".  Writing is overblown and studded with 
malapropisms.  Not as manageable or amusing as "Liquid," so no bonus 
point, sorry.

Reverberations
In two words: Comical Caper
Playing time: 45 minutes
Finished? Yes
Prose(3):2.5 Plot(2):2 Puzzles(2):1.5 Interactivity(2):1.5 Innovation: 0
Score: 7.5 (8)
Lighthearted tall tale pitting California pizza boy against the mob.  
Snappy tone, madcap plot and simple but satisfying puzzles all complement 
each other very nicely.  With a few bugs removed, would make excellent 
introduction to IF for teens and adults.

Delusions
In two words: The Winner
Playing time: 2 hours, several hints
Finished? No
Prose(3):3 Plot(2):2 Puzzles(2):2 Interactivity(2):2 Innovation: 1
Score: 10
Extremely well-written, complex, and strongly implemented IF about future 
virtual reality experiments.  Many innovative and amusing features: 
game-within-game, "Suspended"-like sensory mucking, hilarious TV show 
parody.  Difficult but fair, emphasizing problem- rather than 
puzzle-solving in a well-stocked laboratory environment.

(Note: Playing this beyond two hours, I was less impressed with some of 
the endgame puzzles, and the finicky, buggy nature of the 'finding 
self-awareness' bit. Still at least a 9, though.)

Fear
In Two Words: Puzzle Parade
Playing time: 2 hours, one hint
Finished? Yes, just barely.
Prose(3): 2.5 Plot(2):1 Puzzles(2):2 Interactivity(2): 1.5 Innovation:0
Score: 7
Trapped at home with phobias; overcoming them depends on "Curses"-style 
daydreams containing puzzles that are well thought out and implemented, 
if only tangentially related to the plot.  Not an amazing game, but solid 
and satisfying.

Of Forms Unknown
In Two Words: Machine Shop
Playing time: 1 1/2 hours, some hints
Finished? Yes.
Prose(3): 2.5 Plot(2):0 Puzzles(2):1 Interactivity(2):1 Innovation:0
Score: 4.5 (5)
Travel through various lonely dimensions, solving mechanical conundrums.  
Admittedly inspired by "So Far"; has some of the original's sense of 
place, but lacks its variety and thematic structure.  Some puzzles are 
not well visualized, with seemingly arbitrary solutions and finicky syntax.

Piece of Mind
In Two Words: First Person
Playing time: 1 hour, lots of hints needed
Finished? No; aggravation plus incomplete walkthru
Prose(3): 1.5 Plot(2):0 Puzzles(2):0.5 Interactivity(2):1 Innovation:0.5
Score: 3.5 (4)
Off-the-cuff game inspired by author's apartment.  Experiments with 
first-person narrative, but sticks too close to the author's perspective 
and whims.  Capricious puzzles and changes of scene; many bugs, spelling 
mistakes, and annoying /011 inserts.

Ralph
In Two Words: Dog's Life
Playing time: 30 minutes, one hint
Finished? Yes
Prose(3): 2.5 Plot(2):0.5 Puzzles(2):1 Interactivity(2):1 Innovation:0.5
Score: 5.5 (6)
You're a dog, find the bone you buried somewhere in the back yard.  Good 
implementation of canine protagonist, two decent puzzles, but an 
unsatisfying, capricious end to the game.

House of the Stalker
In Two Words: Sadist's Delight
Playing time: 30 minutes, hints necessary
Finished? Yes
Prose(3): 1 Plot(2):0 Puzzles(2):0 Interactivity(2):0 Innovation:0
Score: 1 + 1 = 2
How NOT to design a game: filled with inscrutable guess-the-verb and 
read-author's-mind situations, one wrong move and you die.  Borrowed 
compass-rose and computer-game gimmicks do not compensate for flat 
writing and basic unscariness.  The *real* fun is finding all the 
continuity gaps in the story; hence, bonus point. Quote: "Welcome to the 
house of the stalker, little one!"

Tapestry
In Two Words: Moral Dilemmas
Playing time: 1 hour, no hints
Finished? Yes
Prose(3):2.5 Plot(2):2 "Puzzles"(2):2 Interactivity(2):1.5 Innovation:1
Score: 9
Afterlife scenario revisiting three crucial life decisions, with sundry 
supernatural figures urging different actions.  Very interesting moral 
points made through multiple endings.  Intelligently written, with some 
typos; stretches of non-interactive prose drag on at times, but 
interactive segments handled well, with just enough challenge in figuring 
out actions to give the illusion of being there.  

Small World
In Two Words: Lilliputian Whimsy
Playing time: 2 hours, several hints
Finished? Yes
Prose(3):2.5 Plot(2):1 Puzzles(2):1 Interactivity(2):1.5 Innovation:0.5
Score: 6.5 (7)
Trapped like the Little Prince on an eight-foot-wide planet, you must 
solve silly puzzles of cosmic proportions to get it turning again.  
Captivating setting with very interesting situations, but many 
sudden-death endings; some carry rather clumsy warnings, others do not.  
Puzzles are amusing but often not well explained.

Roger Giner-Sorolla          University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA
rsg3x@virginia.edu           Dept. of Psychology (Social)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Please, your Majesty," said the Knave, "I didn't write it, and they can't
prove I did: there's no name signed at the end."
"If you didn't sign it," said the King, "that only makes the matter worse.
You /must/ have meant some mischief, or else you'd have signed your name
like an honest man."   --  Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland



From crosby@nordsieck.cs.colorado.edu Tue Dec  3 21:58:42 CET 1996
Article: 19261 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: crosby@nordsieck.cs.colorado.edu (Matthew Crosby)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Contest reviews
Date: 3 Dec 1996 15:57:36 GMT
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So, there have all these wonderfully detailed reviews posted.  This
isn't like that.  Rather, these are the notes I wrote down after 2 hours
had stopped.  I basically wrote down what was on my mind.  Now that I have
gone and finished/replayed many of these, I disagree with some of these
reviews, but I thought it would be interesting for people to see how the
two hour thing affects opinion.

Games are roughly in least->most favourite order.

---

My First Game  

This makes detective seem like a good game.  Truly terrible; lousy
to no writing, lousy to no puzzles, what was the point?  It may
have been satire, intending to emulate a game written by a 9 year
old.  If so, I missed it.

Rippled Flesh 
 
Amateurish.  Not quite as bad as First, but amateurish.  Little coherency,
poor prose, variable puzzles, sillynes, too many useles locations, no 
tightness.  Boring.
 
Liquid 
 
Slightly better then Rippled Flesh (or, god forbid, First), but still
amateurish.  A bit more coherent, slightly better puzzles, full of
spelling and grammar errors, lousy prose, non-existent story line.

Stalker
 
An ok game, but not great.  Prose is a bit iffy, lots of bugs.  Some
puzzle are interesting.  Story very ho-gum, killer a cardboard
cutout.  Nothing terribly wrong with it, and certainly a respectable 
effort (not a Detective), but not really one of the better ones.
 
In The End 
 
What?  I mean, Huh? 
Ok.  I can see what this person is trying to achieve.  There is a nice
build up.  The prose is good, though not wonderful.  Points for achieving
a reasonable, coherent, atmosphere.  Points for trying to be creative.  
Sadly, I don't think this was quite pulled off.  The ending really falls
flat on its face for me.  Confession:  I had to look at the walkthrough
to see what needed doing at the end.

I felt like this led nowhere.  That was probably the idea, but I _like_ 
eg, Camus, but this just left me feeling, well, empty.

I must say, though, that given the infant nature of the F in IF, I think
this was a very interesting attempt, I have definately learned from it
for my future attempts at F oriented IF, but unfortunately I feel
that overall this did not succeed.  Points for being by far the most 
experimental IF in the contest, however.  In fact, I would go so far
as to saying that this probably should be considered a seminal work
as we try to expand the field, and of all the entries that I want to
discuss, I want to discuss this.
 
dbl 
 
This game was over almost before I started.   Short puzzles, not much to
do.  On the bright side, I loved the gimmick at the end.  Alan seems
a little primitive as parsers go.  Prose competent but not wonderful,
puzzles basic but functional.  This would be a really excellent 
beginners intro to IF, now I think about it.

Aayela  
 
A somewhat short, formulistic fantasy.  Postive points are the interesting
twist added by having to survive in the dark.  Also fairly well written with
reasonable prose.  Negative is that this feels like it lacks a lot
of substance.

Lists
 
Hey, what can I say.  Scheme has always been a favourite language of
mine.  "Oh wow" points, but I can't really judge this as a game.
 
Stargazer 
 
Not bad as a prologue (which is, after all its intended purpose), but really 
needs a lot more fleshing out as a real game.  Still, there is a certain
some interesting ideas to it.   Ok prose, not terribly interesting puzzles,
story could be very interesting or it could be standard fantasy stuff.

Sir Ramic Hobbs and the Oriental Walk

Some nice ideas, including the animal thing.  I BEG the author to
ditch AGT; the limitations really showed therough here.
Downside was I found some of the puzzles a pain to solve correctly,
a number that don't make sense.

Phlegm

Attempt at sillyness.  Succeeded sometimes, failed sometimes.
Left me a little flat, to be honest, but as you can see from the briefness
of the description I am pressed for time and a little sick of IF as
I write this, so I am probably being unfair to the author.

Alien Abduction 

Fascinating story, some interesting puzzles, but a number that don't
make a lot of sense.  I like the dubious nature of reality, but are
finding the puzzles a little frustrating sometimes.

Ralph 
 
Simple, but a nice gimmick that works well.   From a puzzle point of
view, however, I thought it was just a little arbitrary.  Still, given
how few possabilities there are it isn't impossible.  A little short, all
in all, but I probably wouldn't want it longer.  This is one of those
games that are just fun to play.  Quite reasonable prose, lots of
tounge in cheek humor.
 
Reverberations
 
Fun.  A nice vignette of Southern Californian life.  Yet another simple
one that had some interesting ideas and made me chuckle.  Didn't quite
get the "surfer dude" feeling, the satirical aspect could have been
stronger, but nevertheless a very nice idea fairly well executed.
Felt a little "thin" in spots, however.

Kissing the Buddhas Feet  

Very fun game.  Excellent characters, great puzzles.  Lots of nice
gimmics.  The downside was that there are a pile of items needed that
I find myself unable to see.  Perhaps there are places I should have
searched and missed, but as it was I found myself typing "take foo"
a lot based on the hints, when I had no clue foo was there, and even
afterwords trying to find foo.
By far the best NPCs in the contest.

Maiden  
 
Nice, well thought out game with good puzzles, consistent atmosphere and
reasonable prose.  The interesting thing about this is, this is a game
that in my mind requires undo (which, happily, tads has).  There are
just too many nasty time critical puzzles, where you have to get the
timing right, otherwise.  

The Meteor, The Stone and a Long Glass of Sherbet

The most traditional game of the lot.
I like it, BUT it felt too...traditional.

Perhaps part of the problem is that, well, I'll confess.  
I'm a heretic.  Quendor has always seemed very patched together to
me, and hasn't worked very well as a world.  (Ok, the world of 
Enchanter/Sorcerer/Spellbreaker did, but Zork * didn't).
And that feeling carries over into this game.  I got the same feeling here.
I'm not saying that this is not a good game.  I thought it was an
excellent game, with nice puzzles, nice writing, etc.  I just thought that 
some of the more createive games were more interesting.

Tapestry  

Neil Gaimon writes IF!  Or, more accurately, someone who is obviously
a big Neil Gaimon fan.  Not, of course, set directly in Gaimon's
worlds, but everything from the depiction of Lucifer to the atmosphere shows 
it.

Nothing wrong with that, of course.  This is F oriented IF done
_right_.  Very tight, nice prose.  

Piece of Mind.

Fascinating, use of second person.  Puzzles are a little...strange.
Somewhat twisted and interesting.  I do not have an idea of where this
is going.

Delusions

Fascinating.  I am not generally fond of Cyber-whaetver (perhaps because I
work with computers so much), but I am liking this.  Puzzles are interesting
but difficult.

Smallwld 
 
My favourite.  Creative, interesting, superb puzzles, wonderfully tounge in 
cheek, I loved playing this.  Loads of fun.  It is a little frustrating
in parts, and I confess to having consulted the hints.   But brilliant.
(Can you tell I liked this game?)

-- 
Matthew Crosby                                         crosby@cs.colorado.edu
Disclaimer:  It was in another country, and besides, the wench is dead.


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Dec  3 23:15:29 MET 1996
Article: 19252 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Zarf's comments on the contest games (SPOILERS)
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This is a very irregular set of comments.

First, it's very widely spread out. I played several games in the first
weekend, with an initial burst of enthusiasm immediately moderating to
sustained critical interest. Then I tapered off (having other projects on
my mind) and played one every few days for pretty much the whole rest of
the voting period. So these reviews (or whatever they are) do *not* all
come from a level playing field. Sorry. Nothing I can do about that.

Second, I tend to focus a lot more on what I don't like than on what I do
like. This probably comes across as harsh criticism. I don't want *anybody*
to get angry or discouraged. I'm trying to point out things that could be
fixed, that's all -- because I have an abiding interest in there being a
*lot of good IF out there*. Ok?

I am including the score I gave to each game. I include it at the bottom of
each review. This is mostly because I wrote each review immediately after
playing each game, but I didn't assign scores until I'd played and
commented on all the games. If the scores don't always seem to line up with
the comments, it's because the comments sometimes go off talking about what
could have been improved, or about some feature which I found interesting
to discuss. Whereas the scores are just about whether I enjoyed the work.

I generally tried to avoid spoilers, but there *are some*.

Off we go.

(Reviews in the order I played them, with my own entry last.)

---------------------- 
* Tapestry

Well, I'm stunned. This is the first game I chose to play, and I chose it
purely on the basis of the title -- oh, a symbolic game, I thought. I'm in
the mood for one of those.

Did I just get incredibly lucky or are they *all* like this? I know mine
isn't -- I wasn't even trying -- but I didn't pull this off when I *was*
trying (last year.)

Ok, I should get more specific. The name "Tim Hunter" is pulled from DC
Comics, of course, unless there's an older folk source I don't know about.
The story is original, though. The story is great. Stories. No, story. This
is one story shown in three orthogonal mirrors. That's use of the IF format
at its finest.

Flow of the action was tightly controlled without feeling confining to the
player. (Except in a couple of places -- I'm thinking of the points where
you try to do an action not consistent with your chosen Path. But that
*has* to be abrupt, because that's the conceit of the story -- that your
actions are constrained to this consistency.) Pay particular attention to
the confrontations with the Wraith, in the Clotho path. My first reaction
was, great, another guess-the-right-thing-to-type puzzle. But that *works*.
It evokes the feeling of panic and pressure, stumbling towards the right
thing to say -- and note that, really, you can't screw up. Random guessing
works, and the resulting storyline reads fine.

The dream scene. I love well-done dream scenes. Looking-glass logic. This
is it. Again, you could call it a guess-the-action puzzle; but in fact
you're guided cleanly through the scene, without much feeling of
manipulation. The author's careful use of detail is a big factor here.
Important things are mentioned; unimportant things are passed over, in a
way that makes it clear they are unimportant (but without leaving the
reader feeling like there was a gap.) This is true of the entire game, not
just the dream scene.

Had to resort to hints once (getting Sarah to go to sleep.)

Involvement: It took me three tries to move my hands to the keyboard to
type one particular command. You know which one. I don't think I can give
the author higher praise than that.

[Note: This was written after playing the first, erroneous upload of
Tapestry (serial number 960911). I haven't gone through the second upload
yet.]

Rating: 10

---------------------- 
* Stargazer

A reasonable depiction of the prologue of a story, though not hugely
distinctive. Rather badly marred by bugs. (In one place, I picked up what
was supposed to be a non-portable rock, causing a puzzle to go badly wrong.
In another, the eloquent farewell speech of Garthan was immediately
followed by a random "Hello" message from him.) The author is clearly
trying to pull in a background for your character, religion and friends and
so on, but I wasn't convinced. I felt like I was doing things for no
reason.

Rating: 2

---------------------- 
* Aayela

A very simple story piece, but wonderfully descriptive. A great incarnation
of the "It is dark" problem; the fact is, you can do quite a lot in pitch
darkness -- but you never forget that you're blind. This comes across just
fine in the game.

The leitmotif is music. (Uh, sorry. :-) The scene of acting within the
context of music works well. I know I'm not being very articulate here, but
what can I say? The author tried to do something small very well, and
succeeded. Maybe "set-piece" is the phrase I'm looking for, but I don't
mean it pejoratively.

(BTW: I suspect the author was smirking when he had your character start
out with a sword which gets lost, a brass lantern which burns out, and a
"rezrov" scroll which gets used up on the first move.)

Rating: 7

---------------------- 
* Punkirita Quest One: Liquid

Can't say I'm very impressed -- or rather, I *am* impressed by the writing,
but probably not the way the author intended. Ok, I'll be honest: "The Eye
of Argon" comes to mind. But leaving that aside...

The story is a short magical sequence, reasonably clever. (The gimmick was
stored in the walkthough file for some reason; it should have been visible
in an introduction or "about" command.) The timing is a little strange. You
have to use the right command at the right time; early doesn't work, or
give any indication that it will work later.

Rating: 1

---------------------- 
* Small World

Average implementation, gorgeous concept. And concept is more important in
my book. I was thoroughly delighted by everything I saw. Angels and devils
and tiny little people! Heh. And the scoring system. Heh heh.
Fire-retardant pants!

Unfortunately, it's easier to complain than to praise, so here's what
annoyed me. The very strict action constraints, mostly. I spent a lot of
time typing a command, getting a warning, trooping around to where I could
perform the action, and typing it again. But this didn't annoy me a *lot*
because it *was* such a small world. Every mistake is fatal, pretty much,
but that's why the warning system was there. (I can't imagine playing the
game without it. There are places where "examine" is a fatal mistake.)

Not all the actions made a whole lot of sense; I relied on the hints a lot.
But I was usually pretty satisfied once I read the hints. There were a
couple more verbs that should have worked, but this can be fixed in future
releases.

I liked the tight focus: one or two objects per room, and most standard
verbs explicitly disabled. It kept things in perspective, so to speak. You
are large; most of what's around you is too small to notice.

Rating: 9

---------------------- 
* Phlegm

Aggressively normal in implementation, but the author was obviously
interested in one thing: farce. He got it. CLONG! An approach to reality so
close as to leave me slightly cross-eyed. Especially the first time Leo
spoke. Some of the game is "merely" silly -- in the best sense of the word
-- and some is inspired lunacy. I knew what the elephant was for as soon as
I laid eyes on it.

A few design problems -- I had verb troubles with the haystack, for
example. Nothing unfixable.

Rating: 8

---------------------- 
* Wearing the Claw

Nice idea for a theme and story, but kind of hard to follow. I, uh, never
did find that carving that's supposed to explain what the coat does. That
probably didn't help.

The author seemed to be too eager to explain things. The whole illusion
motif got spelled out before I really had a chance to recognize it. Or
maybe I wouldn't have recognized it before I won, but that's more because
the game is so small than any deficit in the writing. The three tests went
by too quickly to really differentiate the magic in the game from its
surroundings. Did that make sense? Probably not; it's two in the morning.
Basically, I'm saying that the fortress would have felt better if it were
filled out with the same amount of care and detail that went into the
village and beach.

Another thing that left me somewhat adrift was the switches between
illusion and reality. There was no message that led me to believe that
anything had changed. Maybe the author intended that effect, the world
changing without any sensation of change -- it's certainly a disorienting
effect when it really happens to you. But it's hard to convey in IF. For
example, at one point I did something that affected my perceptions, without
realizing it. Then I typed a command which (of course) didn't work. So I
scrolled the text window up to see what I'd done wrong. If I'd typed "look"
I would have seen the difference, but I had no reason *not* to scroll up
instead. Some kind of message about changed perceptions would have fixed
all that. Even a simple "Something changes." (The hints are very explicit
on this subject, which leads me to believe that other people got confused
too.)

Oh, and it would have been cool if there had been another layer of
deception. Just my personal story-telling preference. Plots with only one
stratum are too common.

Rating: 5

---------------------- 
* The Meteor, The Stone And A Long Glass Of Sherbet

I was pretty darn pleased with this one. It goes to show that you can be
original without being experimental -- and please don't take that as a
criticism. I read plenty of non-experimental genre fiction.

Sherbet's setting is particularly clever, a world clearly descended from
ancient Quendor, but advanced beyond the age of Magic to a baroque
Ruritanian scenario. (This comes across very nicely in your character's
reactions to various levels of technology.) The plot brings you into a
corner of the old world, though, so it becomes a lot more familiar as you
progress. Now that I come to think about it, this is even more clever than
it seems; a game written in the style of the Infocom fantasy titles,
without either ignoring the issue of the similarity *or* being explicitly
set in that era.

The writing and level of description were fine. The interaction wasn't so
good -- a lot of missing synonyms, some of which were confusing in their
missingness. (I found myself checking the hints a lot, often to find that I
*had* thought of the correct solution but had been unable to phrase it
right. On the plus side, this kind of flaw is easily fixed.) In a few
places, though, the required actions were too convoluted for my tastes. And
in one spot at the end, I reached a total dead-end because of something I
forgot to do earlier; there was no obvious way to tell what I'd forgotten.

The scenario is a little strangely presented, too. Your character has a
"secret mission" which you-the-player are not aware of. You have to infer
it from hints in the game. It's not hard to figure out, especially by
virtue of where the plot takes you. But it's the kind of thing I don't like
in a game.

On the whole, though, I liked Sherbet. Engaging plot, a nicely-sketched
antagonist. Fun.

Rating: 7

---------------------- 
* Ralph

Short, nice idea, and well-focussed, if not tremendously exciting. It does
what it sets out to do -- it makes you think like a dog. (Or rather, it
makes you *behave* like a dog. As the author says, it's an awfully smart
dog.)

Extra points for the way the dog regards the annoying kid.

On the other hand, I did not in fact solve the puzzle. (On the third hand
-- hind paw, I guess -- I should have thought of the action that I missed.
Oh well.)

Rating: 5

---------------------- 
* Of Forms Unknown

I feel like I should just post the author's intro here, without commentary.
But that wouldn't get the point across. In brief:

"Originally, it began as a game trying to emulate SO FAR: psychological,
allegorical, with a non-traditional plot. However, time constraints [...]
didn't allow time enough for me to do what I wanted with the plot."

Yeah, pretty much. I felt somewhat queasy at being imitated, all the way
through this game. I was only somewhat relieved to read the above note
(when I finished) and discover that at least the author did it
deliberately.

Perhaps I am jaundiced, because I know exactly what I was intending with
_So Far_ (and "Weather"), so I know what went into them. Unfortunately, not
much seems to have gone into "Forms", in spite of an apparently allegorical
cast to the ending. But this wasn't backed up by anything in the game. Did
I miss anything? I can only judge from what I saw, so I must judge it not
very good.

Three puzzles, more or less. The first seemed to be a cut-down version of a
more interesting plan (I was expecting the dials to do more than they did.)
The second was very arbitrary, with an object breaking for no apparent
reason to keep the plot in line. Hmph. The third (final) puzzle was
reasonable.

(Also there's this acknowledgement to "my girlfriend, Nicole Maxwell..."
Well, no wonder! You have to have years of pent-up misery to write
something like _So Far_. Drop that gink, Nicky, it'll be the biggest favor
you ever did him. Now, I'm always free for dinner; drop by the DC area, we
can eat Indian food and talk about the future of interactive literature...)

(Seriously: I think the lesson here is, take whatever time the work needs.
Not everything needs to be entered in the competition. (I came up with the
greatest idea for a game, on Sunday, Oct. 20th... Haven't decided if I'm
going to write it.))

(If you *do* decide you must make a particular deadline, don't sacrifice
quality for speed. Just work more. Sleep less. Food is unnecessary.
Homework is unnecessary. Relationships are... uh, never mind.)

Rating: 3

---------------------- 
* In The End

Is it well written? Yes, it is extremely well written. We will now spend
the rest of this article talking about the "gimmick" (the author's choice
of word.)

I don't think I liked it (the gimmick, I mean.) Maybe this has more to do
with the way I write IF than the way I play it. I like to thread story and
motivation into the results the player gets to his actions. In this game (I
will not lay aside the word, mostly out of stubbornness) -- in this game,
there are no results. So I don't feel any motivation. It may sound dumb,
but I didn't even think of typing "kill me" until I read the walkthrough. I
wanted to go talk to someone, go to sleep, go wake up the girl and get into
her pants. I couldn't do any of that, so I sat in the chair and typed
"wait" until I got bored and read the walkthrough. Was that (part of) what
you, the author, intended? If not, then the game didn't work for me. It did
not communicate the story to me fully.

Next time, leave in "save" and "restore". *Yes*, I *know* you took them out
for a reason. I don't think it was sufficient reason. I got tired of going
through the beginning moves, and this happened before I thought I had seen
everything. So I got out TXD and dumped out all the game text and read
that. (As it happened, I had seen most of the story paths by then.) Are you
disappointed in me? Fortunately, my goal isn't to impress you.

Leaving out "save" and "restore" made the game too boring to experiment
with as much as I usually do. I don't mean the effect was a total failure;
it set an atmosphere in which things mattered -- especially dealing with
Annie -- random experimentation was obviously discouraged because I was
dealing with a human being, here. But by the same token, I didn't get as
much out the program as you put into it. Maybe that part *was* what you
intended. I don't know.

I shall briefly break ranks and compare "In The End" to "Tapestry", the
other entry I have played (thus far) whose storytelling truly impressed me.
"Tapestry" was a little more cliched, a little less interesting, a little
less well-told. But I liked it more. Of course, it's hard to separate my
reaction to "End"'s gimmick from my reaction to "End"'s miserable
depressing awful theme. I suspect the themes have more to do with my
ratings than the gimmicks -- because "Tapestry" was also, in a sense,
puzzle-less. It did have complicated actions which were hard to accomplish,
but not any harder than getting Annie to like you. On the other hand,
"Tapestry" did require player involvement in more places, and gave more
feedback and more positive reinforcement when I got through each "puzzle".
I think it comes down to motivation again, and (as the "About" text notes)
"End"'s theme precludes motivation in any event.

But I still give "Tapestry" a higher score. There. That's the bottom line.

PS: I think you should have left the walkthrough out. Anyone who complained
should get an aggrieved look. Let 'em change their vote if they thought you
acted wrongly.

Rating: 6

---------------------- 
* Alien Abduction?

A good story; unfortunately, totally undermined by implementation flaws.
It's possible to bypass important parts of the plot. (This is not
deliberate, as far as I can tell from the walkthrough.) Most puzzles
require a precise syntax, no synonyms, and it's often somewhat non-standard
IF syntax. Room descriptions, while well-written, refer to objects that
aren't actually implemented.

Programming aside, the game is nicely designed (although I think I've had
enough Mastermind now, thank you very much.) The scenario makes sense, with
a touch of looking-glass logic. There's a certain tendency to tell the
player how to react, rather than evoking the effect through prose, but only
in a few places.

Rating: 5

---------------------- 
* The Maiden of the Moonlight

Ghosts in a dark Scottish manor. I like it. The atmosphere is almost
perfect -- very monochromatic, grey and black; my only complaint is that it
wasn't really very scary. Just quiet.

The puzzles fit very smoothly. I didn't get all of them without hints, but
I've gotten rather lazy after, what, fourteen games played now. I'm
resorting to hints faster than I should. I didn't find any solutions that
were actually illogical, although some of the actions were pretty obscure.
Not obscure in what you're supposed to do; they made perfect sense in terms
of the situation. I mean obscure in that I was never inspired to think of
them, or think that the goals they accomplished were important. (Is that
too obscure? Uh, getting the rug was the biggest example. That and finding
the crypt key. Here's a better way to put it: the useful items didn't stand
out from the scenery very well. Because, I hasten to add, the scenery was
so nicely detailed.)

(Come to think of it, all my complaints are that "Maiden" is too
well-written and well-designed! Gonna have to up my rating or something.)

The finale is very tight on timing, but I'd have to be pretty hypocritical
to complain about that.

I like the title effect. The author gives the same information elsewhere in
the game, as a nudge, but I'd already gotten it by then.

Oh, it's after midnight now. Halloween has started. Good timing.

Rating: 8

---------------------- 
* Delusions

It is clear that a tremendous amount of thought, talent, and effort went
into Delusions. So why did I hate it?

Good question. Let me think.

I think, quite honestly, that there's too much *there*. The focus falls
apart; it tries to do everything at once. This thing is *huge*, I should
start off by saying that. It's the first game that I was unable to finish
in two hours -- and that's two hours *with* the all the hints. I started
reading hints early, and rapidly degenerated into total reliance on them.
Eventually I got stuck trying to sharpen the pencil, I realized it was
three in the morning, and I thought, wait, haven't I spent two hours
already? Oh, thank god. I have an excuse to stop playing.

Let me back up. Technically, Delusions is very, very good. I had a very
solid feeling for the environment, the various characters moving around,
the machines I could interact with. It had, in fact, the offhand richness
of detail that I associate with the better Infocom work. The music in the
ocean, I loved it.

And then the plot started, and my god, there is *all this plot*. There's
the fish plot, and the you-learning-about-yourself plot, and the evil
computer program plot, and the using-the-GUI gimmick, and the
using-the-simulation gimmick, and the repeating universe head surgery plot,
and then then unlocking-your-door plot, and then the plot after that, and
that's where I gave up, because I had long since lost track of why I
actually cared about any of this. Any one of these, or perhaps two, would
have been an engaging competition entry. All of them together left me
feeling like, like, I don't know what.

Let me give an example. The GUI computer. It's a cute idea. It could have
been developed on its own, and been interesting. In Delusions, however, it
was a distraction from the plot it was part of. It took too much time and
effort for me to deal with, when I was already trying to understand the
rules of the repeating-universe scenario.

The repeating-universe gag. It's a cute idea. It could have been developed
on its own. But there was too much else going on, and I couldn't figure out
what was important and what was background. It just all felt kludgy. (A
head gizmo *and* drugs? How am I supposed to sort this out? I have to do X,
and then Y and X together, and then... I forget. And the sensory thing
certainly didn't seem to have enough information available; at one point I
turned off touch, passed out, and woke up with my back tingling from the
cold metal or some such thing. It would have taken extensive
experimentation for me to figure out how to solve that section, and
experimentation was a *pain in the ass* because you have to juggle the
stupid GUI computer *and* the drugs-and-alarm-clock gimmick, every time you
try another combination... no. no. no. That was when I started reading the
hints *before* trying to solve puzzles on my own.)

The learning-about-yourself plot. This is a great idea. It could have been
developed on its own. In Delusions, it was completely swamped. I didn't
follow up on any of it, or realize that progress was being made towards a
goal, because there was this other thing to do and suddenly an evil lunatic
has me tied up and is screaming nonsense at me! I think it was supposed to
be profound nonsense, but I wanted to slap the lunatic upside the head
(preferably with a crowbar) and tell him to get a grip, for chrissake.

The traitor-in-the-lab plot. By the time it started, I didn't care. Did it
tie into any of the other plots? Don't ask me; I never sharpened the
pencil.

I am now trying to count how many Critical Moments there are in Delusions.
I think I encountered three; presumably there would be a fourth at the end.
What? Sally Callahan on a binge couldn't stay interested through that many
climaxes.

Too many stories. Edit. Make it a trilogy. Or pace it out so that only one
or two things are happening at a time; then it would be a full-length game,
but a focussed full-length game. Or just chop the hell out of it.
*Something*.

[Footnote, several weeks later: Email discussions have brought up the point
that I'm a fine one to complain about complex interlocked puzzles, after "A
Change in the Weather". I reply, yeah, bite me. If the *plot* held
together, I'd be motivated to play with all the gizmos. And say what you
like, but the endgame of "Weather" was (1) focussed down to a single plot
idea and a single puzzle, and (2) very short, especially if you got it
wrong and had to try again. Twice as much does not mean better.]

Rating: 4

---------------------- 
* Reverberations

A brief and somewhat lunatic action caper. The world is rather
thinly-described for my taste, and the implementation could use more
synonyms, but the story comes across very well.

(Ok, it's a short review. It was a pretty short game.)

(Well, one more comment: I have now played enough of the puzzle where you
have to repeat your command several times to convince the parser to do it.
Ok?)

Rating: 5

---------------------- 
* Fear

Oh, oh, oh, what do I think? A good plan, but the execution didn't work for
me. Damn.

I was always behind in picking up where I was supposed to be, in the plot.
The pacing was off. I picked up the book, and was away facing one set of
fears before I knew that I was troubled with them. Then I solved that phase
of the game, and was back, and discovered the arriving police, which
explained why I was trying to face these fears in the first place. You see?
Solutions before problems.

The writing, in detail, was fine. (The one thing I *did* know was that I
was embroiled in a nightmare. That fact pushed in on me from all
directions, and it was very satisfyingly claustrophobic.)

Then there's the puzzles. Way too disconnected for me. I didn't get the
idea of the dark puzzle at all, not without reading the hints; then I was
thinking, oy, no wonder the author stuck all this cruft onto the statues --
there's no elegant way to communicate the point of this puzzle. The duck
puzzle was atmospheric, but a totally different atmosphere from the main
game. Ditto for the crystal dome. (I didn't stumble on "listen to crystal",
either, but at that point I'd gotten somewhat impatient.)

I've always been a heavily puzzle-based author, of course, but this game
might actually have worked best without any puzzles in the flashback
scenarios at all. Or at least much more straightforward ones. Just scenes
*dealing* with the three subjects would have been as effective, without
distracting from the plot. As an example -- the dark scenario, but without
the statues. I liked the beginning of it; you're crawling around, doing
things in the dark. (Although I played "Aayela" before "Fear", and I think
that did a better job of the dark thing.)

Rating: 4

---------------------- 
* A Piece of Mind

This may be, I kid not, the most clever entry I've played yet. There's a
lot of very subtle stuff going on -- starting with the use of
first-person-past-tense in the introduction, switching to
first-person-present-tense in the main story, did you notice that? The
author is going in and paying serious attention to the relationship between
the player and the protagonist, and the nature of the simulated game world
in front of you. This is the same sort of territory that "Delusions"
covers, but "Piece" worked a hell of a lot better for me.

Some of this is the bantering tone of the writing. This is a great
demonstration of the potential of first-person IF; the protagonist comes
through beautifully as a personality in his own right. Game text as spoken
dialog, rather than exposition. (I don't know whether the game's weak
spelling and grammar are deliberate or just the author's mistakes; I don't
care, either. Spelling should be fixed eventually, but the slang and run-on
sentences should be left as they are, you hear me?)

The storyline alternates being compelling and comic, and just when you
think the question of your position as player has been swept under the rug,
whammo. The ending doesn't shy away from, well, anything. (Assuming I have
reached the ending. The author blithely ignored the requirement to include
complete spoilers -- his walkthrough cuts off at the very last scene -- a
decision I can only applaud at this point. "This point" meaning that I'm
staring at the final screen, totally uncertain as to whether I've done it
right. As the author obviously intended. As opposed to other contest
entries, where authors submitted to having the "right" answers blazoned on
their shirt sleeves. Foo on that. And you were wondering why my entry was a
non-game which had no story to give away...?)

Well. I guess I should find some bad things to say. One spot of
"guess-the-verb", not too hard to fix. A few more scenery objects that
could have been implemented. A couple of bugs, a lot of spelling errors. A
*whole* lot of places where the author forgot to put a backslash between
lines of text.

On the author hand (I really meant to type "other hand" there, but I'll
leave it the way it is!) there are all the guitar hints, which the author
claims he really did improvise on the spot. That's worth a bonus point by
itself.

PS: Played a little more; found a different ending. That's cool. I had
tried the correct action, I think, but that synonym didn't work -- add it
to the bug list. Mmm. Maybe.

Rating: 9

---------------------- 
* Kissing the Buddha's Feet

I kiss *somebody's* feet. This is short and perfect. (Well, not *perfect*
per se; there are several little syntax annoyances, and there seems to be
no way to see the skateboard unless you know it's there. And too much
looking under, inside, and behind things. But this is fixable.)

The six characters are very snappily presented. They're not deep
characters, but this is not a deep game; it's silly and the personalities
are on the right level for that. Not stereotypes, mind you.

(Six characters, one of which is you, I should add. Didn't I comment on an
earlier game saying that it was a good argument for first-person writing
for characterization? This one is a good argument for second-person writing
for characterization.)

The atmosphere is frenetic, which is of course the point of the story.
People constantly wandering around doing things. *Annoying* things. Heh.
Which is of course the point of *your* character.

Lots of terribly cute side comments.

You know, I just realized that this is "a college game". I hate college
games. I didn't make the connection until well after I'd finished. Am I
inconsistent? All the time, yes, but not in this instance. This game
doesn't use any of the overused tropes of the college IF cliche (exploring,
re-creation of real locations, in-jokes over-explained.)

Not difficult; I figured out all the puzzles quickly, except for finding
the skateboard. Mmm, and getting the TV off.

Rating: 9

---------------------- 
* Rippled Flesh

Ok, I give up. This is the game that I don't bother to finish, even with
the walkthrough.

Strangely, there *were* things I liked. It was a nightmare. Things didn't
make sense. Weird things appearing in empty rooms. Random fragments of
horror coming and going through the story like, well, nothing in
particular.

The author's unique genius for constructing sentences is as evident as it
was in "Liquid".

Rating: 2

---------------------- 
* Stalker

This is the last game I have the resources to play. I got stuck, looked
through the hints, and the game called me a cheater.

My patience, I discovered, had ended with the previous game. I turned this
one off and didn't bother to play through to the end.

Rating: none given.

---------------------- 
* Lists And Lists

Ok, I get this space to explain myself -- a luxury I rarely allow myself,
so listen up.

It was a joke, ok? A *one-line* joke.

"Yeah, I implemented Lisp for the Z-machine". There are probably only a few
hundred people on the *planet* who have an inkling of why that is a silly
thing to do. And most of you are reading this now. It probably ranks as one
of the most obscure in-jokes of all time. (The fact that I had to write a
whole Lisp manual to make the joke work makes it funnier, I hope, although
actually it probably just makes me look more pig-headed.)

But I didn't write Lists hoping to win. Recently (today is Oct. 26) I've
seen a few people saying that Lists was the best contest entry they've
played to date. What? Jesus Flippin' Mohawk Christ! It's not *fun*, don't
you get it? It's not *fiction*, ok? It's *schoolwork*! The manual is the
most interesting *part* of it and that's not even *interactive*!

As I wrote Lists -- the work of three whole days, plus extra to do the
manual -- I had this repeated vision of someone saying, "Lisp for the
Z-machine! Ha! Ha! That Zarf, what a clever guy! Three out of ten." And
then going on to a real game.

That's what I *hope* you all said. If Lists gets as high as third place,
I'm going to sulk.

But I promised to explain myself. Actually, this was partially inspired by
Dave Baggett's musings, many months ago, that he wanted to write IF in Lisp
(or Scheme.) "Whoa," I thought, "I bet I can do a Lisp engine which I can
play under my extremely terrific MaxZip interface! That'd be cool." So I
whipped it out.

The obvious next step is a "dump" facility, that lets you write the program
structures you've created out into a file. Preferably an Inform 6 link
module, so that you can link them back into a game file you're writing.
Easy enough to do -- then you can have a game partially written in Inform
and partially in Scheme, with the Scheme controlling as much of the game as
you need it to. Or, of course, an pure-Scheme IF system. Although frankly
the memory limits are pretty painful.

For added fun, recall that Muddle, Infocom's design language, was
Lisp-like. If one had the source for it, one could undoubtedly port it to
my engine, and run it on the Z-machine. Wrap your head around that...

Oh well. By the time you see this, I'll know how well I did. But you can
see what *I* scored myself as.

[Postscript: It's a few days later, and I've gotten email that started "Are
you kidding?" Thank god someone noticed.]

Rating: 2

----------------------

Scoreboard:

10 Tapestry
9 Small World
9 Piece of Mind
9 Kissing the Buddha's Feet
8 Phlegm
8 Maiden of the Moonlight
7 The Meteor, the Stone, and a Long Glass of Sherbet
7 Aayela
6 In the End
5 Alien Abduction
5 Ralph
5 Reverberations
5 Wearing the Claw
4 Delusions
4 Fear
3 Of Forms Unknown
2 Lists and Lists
2 Stargazer
2 Rippled Flesh
1 Punkirita Quest One: Liquid

-------------------------------

--Z


-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From darin@connectnet1.connectnet.com Wed Dec  4 21:43:45 MET 1996
Article: 19289 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: darin@connectnet1.connectnet.com (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure,rec.arts.int-fiction,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.video.classic
Subject: Re: Dungeon, the original Zork:I neeed Help!
Date: 4 Dec 1996 19:26:01 GMT
Lines: 36
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References: <849637929.28107@dejanews.com> <slrn5a9np5.kj4.darin@connectnet1.connectnet.com> <5833eo$1du@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
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>I have the old Zorks on a "Treasures of Infocom" CD.  Just what is
>Dungeon, and how does it relate to the Zorks?

In short, before there was Zork I, II, and III, there was Zork.  It
was a big game, and ran on mini computers.  However, when
Infocom went to build it on small home computers, it was too big, so
they trimmed it down and made Zork I.  Zork II and III were made from
some of the stuff trimmed out and new puzzles.

Dungeon was the original Zork, Zork being a name change of the
executable if I recall.  Ie, the game didn't have a "name", but the
file name was "zork" or "dungeon" at various times.  But most people,
when referring to Dungeon, really mean the version that split off from
Zork by being ported to Fortran (and thus could run on lots of
computers and was widely distributed).  Dungeon/Zork was the second
adventure game (that history remembers anyway), and was inspired by
the original Adventure; but they did a lot more with it, having a nice
language to use.

In short, it's as close to the original Zork as you're going to find,
unless you know where the original MDL code is.  It does have puzzles
not in the original, as well as bug fixes and other changes.  Dungeon
is copyrighted freeware, unlike the Zorks.

Hmm, as far as RPG's go (just to stay in topic), it did have a limited
form of combat.  It wasn't really necessary, but since D&D (boo hiss)
was popular and really the only example of RPG anyone had ever seen,
it was decided that adding combat, with stats and all, would make the
game more popular.  Turns out, almost no one realized there were
stats, and it was way more complicated than it needed to be, and it
was one of the less popular features of the game.

-- 
Darin Johnson
darin@connectnet.com



From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Sun Dec  8 22:32:56 MET 1996
Article: 19381 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Jigsaw prologue frustrating? (Was Re: Zarf's comments on the contest games (SPOILERS))
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 20:47:15 +0000 (GMT)
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In article <cleofax-0612960731060001@noho-us113.javanet.com>, Russ Bryan
<URL:mailto:cleofax@javanet.com> wrote:
> 
> In article <32A4AA2B.41682018@post.rwth-aachen.de>, Linards Ticmanis
> <Linards.Ticmanis@post.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
> 
> > It's okay if a scene is a real hard one, if the game has a lot of clever
> > responses to all the crap you might try. A positive example is the first
> > scene of Christminster. The first scene in Jigsaw, however, can be
> > pretty frustrating as it's not nearly as responsive.

> .... On the other hand, I might not spend much time on the hallway which
> leads to the room(s) where the climax is found.  I can imagine that Graham
> considered the first scene of Jigsaw a bridge to take the player from the
> first move to the first meeting with Black.  The first meeting with Black
> is filled with detail.

I have one excuse, which is that Jigsaw was perhaps the last game
written under the constraint of not exceeding 256K in story file
size.  (Well, I released it in both a .z5 and .z8 version, but at
the time there were hardly any .z8-capable interpreters.)  I was
seriously hacking away at frills in some scenes.  Though this may
not have worsened the game.

In some ways, prologues can be trickier than usual because the
player knows that the answer must be nearby, that it can't be
a matter of something he should have done earlier, and so on.

Experiment shows that some players go straight for the solution
of the prologue, and play through it in about 10 minutes.  Others
get seriously stuck, and I never quite found why.

I might also add that the prologue to "Christminster", though it
is one of the best puzzles in the entire canon, is also variably
difficult.  It took me absolutely ages (I was the play-tester,
or one of them!).

Excuses, excuses.  One other point I might make in comparison
between "Jigsaw" and "Christminster": the prologue of "Jigsaw"
lays down markers for the game ahead.  I think it's slightly
more contiguous with the middle game, as a result.  But it also
contains more loose ends, whereas when the "Christminster"
prologue is over, one knows for certain that one has completed
every detail of it.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From adam@yuma.Princeton.EDU Mon Dec  9 15:27:16 MET 1996
Article: 19360 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: adam@yuma.Princeton.EDU (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: The Classic Puzzles
Date: 7 Dec 1996 16:36:05 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
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In article <58akhk$j2c@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
STANTON FINLEY <mordacai@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>    There are certain puzzles which, for the deviousness, humour,
>brilliance or plain unsolvability, have become famous (or infamous) to
>most players of IF.  Perhaps two of the most mentioned "Classic"
>puzzles are the Babel Fish dispenser from Hitchhikers Guide and the
>baseball maze from Zork III.  Anyone else want to comment on their
>favourite legendary games, or maybe make some observations regarding
>what make's a truly classic puzzle?

You misspelled Zork II.

My favorite has to be the time-travel loop in _Sorceror_, which is a truly
evil puzzle, yet without the arbitrariness of the Diamond Maze (although I
had all the pieces to the Diamond Maze; I just never asked myself why a
left-handed pitcher was a southpaw).

The Enigma machine in _Jigsaw_ is brilliant, but, IMHO, too hard.  Yeah, I
know it's an easy version of a _real_ Enigma, but...

There's a big difference, of course, between hard but satisfying puzzles
and hard-because-they-feel-arbitrary puzzles.  F'r instance, the
time-travel versus the Diamond Maze.

Zork III Spoiler ahead.


The Royal Puzzle is a nice set-piece.  If you wander around it carefully
you can pretty easily figure out a solution, but if you just start shoving
walls, you're screwed.  The Zork III time machine is also a lovely
set-piece puzzle.  All the clues are there (well, except maybe the ability
to hide things under the seat; that should have been made clearer in the
machine description or something).

Just-plain-annoying puzzles include finding something to eat initially in
Planetfall--an utterly gratuitous puzzle, serving no purpose but to keep
you from exploring early on, the reversing mirror maze of Sorceror (I mean,
"fweep" was really cute and all, but the scope of the maze and its
reversability were just a bit much), and, most horrendously, the Hop Clap
Kweepa of LGOP.

So I guess my read is, "Mazes Bad."  Mazes which try to be clever are
usually worse (well, the Royal Puzzle is a notable exception).

Adam
-- 
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | adam@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928


From chidder@fred.aurora.edu Tue Dec 10 10:40:02 MET 1996
Article: 19456 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: chidder@fred.aurora.edu
Subject: Re: Part II of Zebulon
Message-ID: <32AC52E1.49B3@fred.aurora.edu>
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 12:56:49 -0500
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S
P
O
I
L
E
R
 
S
P
A
C
E

G
H
O
S
T


> >I've found my way into the tower, and I've collected everything I could
> >find around the house. I figure I've got to get moonlight (or silver) to
> >shine on the little gold ball I find in the orrery (device), but there's
> >no moon out the window that I can look at, and no silver to be found
> >anywhere.
> >
> >Here's my inventory (as accurately as I can remember it):
> >red and green lenses, teak box, green bottle, lead coin, flask of acid,
> >scroll, letter, scrap of paper, book, brass plate, magic wand, carrot.
> >
> >That's all I can think of. Any mild hints are appreciated.
> >
> >--
> >djr={gridby, dart, axoq}

15. Have you opened every cupboard, etc in the house?
14. Most items come in 2's, or threes
13. 3 lenses, two bottles, for example
12. But remember, you can only take 1 thing with you!
11. Maybe theres a way to cheat. . .
10. Try putting things in one of the bottles. . .
09.  . . . and see where they go.
08. By the way, the gold ball can be moved. . .
07. Now, have you seen anything that might hold the lenses?
06. Something with lens sockets?
05. Or eye sockets?
04. Thats an interesting wand you have there. . .
03.  . . . tried pointing it at other things?
02. Maybe you could get something better to eat then that dried up carrot.
01. If you get really stuck, use the fortunetellers friend- its in plain 
      view.

Chidder



From d91tan@minsk.docs.uu.se Tue Dec 10 10:40:36 MET 1996
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From: Torbj|rn Andersson <d91tan@minsk.docs.uu.se>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Search for 70's MnFrn txt adven
Date: 09 Dec 1996 21:44:08 +0100
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John_Tempest@msn.com (John Tempest) wrote:

> In the mid 70's, I vaguely remember logging in to either to an IBM or
> Burroughs time-sharing system, and playing a text adventure through
> the tty terminal. It wasn't Colossal Caves or Dungeon (the original
> of Zork) as far as I know. It has plenty of descriptive text and a
> reasonably good parser. Start location was near a crossroads; taking
> one of the roads (west?) was a house with several rooms, a bit
> further west (?) was a large tree with a hole in it which you could
> enter and get underground. I didn't get very far with it due to the
> incessant streams of people coming in and asking how long are you
> going to be (with obvious implication that they had real official
> work to carry out on this sole terminal!).

Parts of your description sounds almost like the original MUD by
Richard Bartle and Roy Trubshaw (which started at a "Narrow road
between lands", had a house and, if memory serves me, cutting
down a tree would reveal a secret underground passage).

It doesn't fit with the time frame, though, as it didn't appear
until early 1980, as far as I know.

> If anyone has any clues as to what this text adventure was called, or
> can provide some possible net archives (source or converted PC code),
> I would be very grateful.

As far as I know, it's not available for download.

The actual game consisted of a game specification written in MUDDL
(MUD definition language), and a program written in BCLP (except
for some small parts written in some flavour of assembly language)
to interpret the database.

I have had the opportunity to look around in the game (it used to
run at an old computer here at school, which was shut down a few
years ago), and even to look at the actual source code and database,
but I am in no position to distribute any of it.

I can tell you, however, that parts of it almost made "A Change in
the Weather" look like a difficult, but still quite nice and
forgiving little game. :-)

Last thing I heard (which, admittedly was a few years ago), the game
was still running as a commercial on-line game under CompuServe, and
I've heard about a successor (called MUD2) also being run as a
commercial on-line game in some places, but I don't know where.

     _
Torbjorn


From lpsmith@rice.edu Tue Dec 10 10:40:47 MET 1996
Article: 19438 of rec.games.int-fiction
From: lpsmith@rice.edu (Lucian Paul Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Contest Musings
Date: 9 Dec 1996 21:29:33 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Lines: 386
Message-ID: <58i0bt$lvg@listserv.rice.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ural.owlnet.rice.edu
Keywords: Contest, IF competition, review
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Well, jumping on the bandwagon, here's my reviews of the contest 
entries.  They're much shorter than some of the other reviews that have 
been posted here, but hopefully they will provide some sort of alternate 
opinion as grist for the mill.

Incidentally, re-reading my reviews, I was very glad for the moratorium 
on contest discussion before the deadline.  It's amazing how quickly and 
easily my opinion could be wavered by a dissenting one.

One final disclaimer:  kudos to all the authors for your effort!  Even if 
I didn't like your entry, it doesn't mean it wasn't worth it!  Keep the 
IF coming!


-Lucian "Lucian" Smith
-----------------------
aayela     Aayela, an Interactive Vision by Magnus Olsson (TADS)
           Release 1.1 / 961015

This was a very nice game.  Short on length, long on good ideas, short
on puzzles, but long on atmosphere.  Although I felt I was whisked off
on one of the endings (the 'bad ending') too quickly, and a little
extremely, the 'good ending' was great.  I enjoyed this game a lot.

aayela rating:  8/9
-----------------------
abduct     Alien Abduction?  An Interactive Fiction Story by Charles Gerlach
           (TADS)

Wow.  This is an excellent story, well told, and VERY CREEPY!  I almost
went insane myself with that constant 'Click'!  Yikes!  A couple small
bugs, but insignificant, and easily correctable.  Spooky the whole way
through.

abduct rating: 10
-----------------------
claw       Wearing the Claw, an Interactive Fantasy by Paul O'Brian (Inform)
           Release 2 / Serial number 961003

Fairly linear, almost-standard quest game, whose best points are the
interesting scoring system, and the attempt to integrate the puzzles
into the plot.  Still, there were some strange puzzles (like type 's'
three times before it lets you go that way).  It did flow OK, and had an
interesting plot twist halfway through.  Still, it wasn't all that
involving.  Some formatting bugs that made some text unreachable.

claw rating: 5
-----------------------
dbl        Don't Be Late!  An Interactive Snippet by Grew Ewing (Alan)

'Snippet' is right!  This is an amazingly short game with a moderately
frustrating parser.  It has one clever gimmick at the end, and some
moderately entertaining prose.  Overall, not very involving, although
almost short enough to compensate--still not very worthwhile.

dbl rating:  2
-----------------------
delusns    Delusions, an Interactive Self-Discovery (Inform)
           Release 2 / Serial number 961021

This was a pretty good game.  The atmosphere was good, and the
unfolding of the story worked well.  Unfortunately, many of the puzzles
were drastically unfair.  'Examine things in the correct order' does
_not_ make for a good puzzle in my book.  I feel that a better
implementation of this idea to advance the plot was in order.  There
seemed to be many times when I had the right idea, but had no clue as
to the implementation, the GUI computer being a prime example of this.
The intrusion of the various "Author's Note:"s were also distracting,
and did not really contribute to the story.  Perhaps this could have
been better implememted in a 'Footnote' type manner.  Incidentally, the
'Jeopardy' show was one of the funniest bits of IF that I have seen in
a long time.  Overall, this was a very good story rendered somewhat
impotent by some design flaws.  Fortunately, to a great extent, this
could be fixed in future releases.

delusns rating:  7
-----------------------
fear       Fear, an Interactive Nightmare (Inform)
           Release 1 / Serial number 961012

Interesting premise that almost manages to pull it off.  However, the
intense atmosphere that was created at the beginning did not carry
through the rest of the piece.  The endgame almost managed to pull that
back together, but overall, the center sections simply were too
disparate from each other and from the beginning and end to form a
cohesive whole.  Still, it was a valiant attempt, and some of the
puzzles were clever.  The integration of the puzzle sections with the
rest of the game was clever, but, unlike 'Curses', a pastiche didn't
work as well in this game as it did there.

fear rating:  7
-----------------------
first      My First Stupid Game, by Dan McPherson (AGT)
           AGT runtime for DOS included

I'll give it this:  it has an apt title.  It's sheer banality gave it a
healthy dose of humor, and, to be fair, it was probably intentional. 
Still, it was quite juvenile.  The best part of the game was the 
walkthrough provided with it--probably the funniest part.

first rating:  3
-----------------------
forms      Of Forms Unknown, an Interactive Excursion by Chris Markwyn (Inform)
           Release 2 / Serial number 961021

If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, Andrew Plotkin should
feel flattered.  A self-acknowledged imitation of 'So Far', it conveys
some of the same feeling of the original.  At the author's admission,
much of the plot was not included due to time constraints, and so what
was left was just the puzzles.  There weren't that many of those here,
either, one I really enjoyed, one bad one, one that had a lot of
potential that it didn't quite live up to, and the rest were average to
middling.  The hints were readily available, though.  Overall, I felt
that the unimportant details of 'So Far' were imitated more than the
ones which made it such a good game.  'Forms' shows a lot of potential,
though.

forms rating:  7
-----------------------
intheend   In the End, by Joe Mason (Inform)
           Release 1 / Serial number 961010

Hmmmmm.  There were interesting things about this game.  There was a lot
of one-time text, but it sort of worked.  The demands it made on the
reader were considerable, but,... I dunno.  The inability to 'save' was
obnoxious!  I doubt that I found everything, but it was gruelling to
try.

intheend rating:  6
-----------------------
jacl       The Curse of Eldor, an Adventure by Stuart Allen (J.A.C.L.)
           Release 3; J.A.C.L. engine for DOS and Linux included

I'm not sure if I should rate this game, since much of it was rendered
inaccessable by bugs.  The main bug in my system was not being able to
'save' and 'restore'!  Or, rather, I could restore, but not to the
place I had saved.  Instead, it would put me in the room " with every
item in the game. (Yes, " was the name of the room, as listed on the
status bar.)  The game was also slow as blazes, taking at least three
minutes to load up on my 386. For the part of the game I was able to
play, there were some mildly interesting puzzles.  However, the main
character had a severe case of kleptomania!  You had to steal all sorts
of items from people's homes, which seemed a bit odd.  It also suffered
>from  the 'defeat the baddie to get the McGuffin' sydrome.  I muchly
disliked the starvation rule, also.

jacl rating:  3
-----------------------
kissing    Kissing the Buddha's Feet, an Interactive Cramming (TADS)
           Version 1.00

Very nicely put-together game.  All the puzzles are very logical, and
fit in with the story seamlessly.  Well-behaved characters that have a
wide range of automatic activities, cleverly implemented.  Many puzzles
involve interaction with characters on a personal level, which was nice.
Good range of puzzles in small setting.

kissing rating:  9
-----------------------
liquid     Punkirita Quest One: Liquid, a Viking's Funeral by Rybread Celsius
           (Inform)
           Release 1 / Serial number 960927

Well, this is the second game by the author, and I must say it's a darn
sight better than his first.  The author has constructed an interesting
fantasy world, and it was fun to explore.  The final downfall was that
there simply wasn't enough to do that advanced the plot, and that the
things that _did_ advance the plot were either simplistic or unintuitive
(or both!).  This definitely showed promise, though, at least as soon as
he either learns how to spell, or gets better beta-testers.

liquid rating:  3
-----------------------
lists      Lists and Lists, an Interactive Tutorial by Andrew Plotkin (Inform)
           Release 3 / Serial number 960823

Well, this gets the prize for most unique.  I wanted to finish this
'game', I really did,...but I just couldn't bring myself to do it.  As
interesting as the concept was, the motivation just wasn't there.  I
guess that's where this entry broke down--unless there was external
motivation to go through it, it provided none for the player.  The
analogy would be a game with a bunch of random puzzles strung together
with absolutely no plot.  The puzzles might be very creative--but
without a motivation for the main character, it ultimately fails in the
telling.  While this would be a good supplement for a Lisp class, it
ultimately fails as I-F.

lists rating:  4
-----------------------
maiden     Maiden of the Moonlight, by Brian P. Dean (TADS)
           Release 1.1b

This is an excellent, intriguing game.  The prose is unobtrusive, but
evocative, and does an excellent job of showing and not telling.  A
couple bugs, but nothing blocking gameplay.  The genre was an excellent
choice, and, in retrospect, it's surprising that no games (to my
knowledge) have been set here before.  The puzzles flow logically from
the story, and are well thought-out.  Many puzzles re-use objects, which
is also a plus.

maiden rating:  10
-----------------------
phlegm     Phlegm, an Interactive Interactive by Adjacent Drooler (Inform)
           Release 1 / Serial number 961014

This was a fun little game, even if I didn't understand the title. 
Silliness abounds, and is quite humorous.  The puzzles aren't
exceedingly difficult, and the hints were good enough to me so that I
was able to be nudged towards a couple hints without being told straight
out.

phlegm rating:  8
-----------------------
picket     The Land beyond the Picket Fence, by Martin Oehm
           (stand-alone DOS program)
           Version 1.0

A nice story.  The puzzles are worked in to the story well, and the goal
(to get a girl's yo-yo back) is very pleasant.  Nice characterization of
the protagonist with very few words--it fit nicely.  The parser for this
game was very well done, and I would be intrigued to find out where it
came from.  If it was written by the author, I will be that much more
impressed.  Overall, a good, solid game.

picket rating:  7
-----------------------
piece      Piece of Mind, an Interactive Short Story by Giles Boutel (Inform)
           Release 1 / Serial number 961015

Hmmmm.  This was an interesting game, with an interesting premise.  Most
of it was quite humorous, if a little haphazard.  I'm not sure if the
meta-point of the game was conveyed all that well, or convincingly, in
the end-game.  Mostly it was just strange.  The puzzles were decent, for
the most part, and much of it was fun.  There was some formatting
problems that occurred (presumably) because the author didn't take into
consideration different playing window sizes.

piece rating:  6
-----------------------
promoted   Promoted!  By Mike DeSanto (REXX Adventure - OS/2 only)
           You have to fetch the current beta version of REXX Adventure from
           Mike's ftp site; it may not be distributed otherwise.

This was a silly game that was fun to play.  It probably had my favorite
level of puzzles in it--none were too illogical (well, okay, _one_ was
illogical (the colored tapes) but the rest were great), and it was fun
discovering the internal crazed logic of the 'Dilbert'-like corporation.
I will say that I found the system (REXX Adventure) very unique, but
leaving a bit to be desired, in terms of atmosphere.  However, it is
probably ideal for puzzle-based games.  (For those who don't know, a
constant list of objects is provided, and once you select an object, a
list of all possible verbs associated with that object are then
provided, all in different windows.)  At any rate, this was a fun game.

promoted rating:  8
-----------------------
ralph      Ralph, an Interactive Sniffing by Miron Schmidt (Inform)
           Release 2 / Serial number 961005

A very short, enjoyable game.  Lighthearted, and fun to play.  The
puzzles were a bit tough for me, for whatever reason--of course, I
probably cheated a bit too quickly.

ralph rating:  6
-----------------------
reverb     Reverberations, a Hectic Voltairian Adventure by Russell Glasser
           (Inform)
           Release 1 / Serial number 961015

This game was a riot.  Pretty campy, but doesn't take itself too
seriously.  Illogical plot twists that are funny all the same.  One of
the best exchanges, that had me LOL was:

Street, by Pizza Parlor
You stand in the heart of San Doppleton's main drag, the business district.  The
street goes east and west.  The sidewalk runs by a pizza parlor, with a sewer
vent nearby. 

>enter vent 
What do you think you are, a Ninja Turtle?

>yes
Well, I've got news for you, Donatello.  The sewer vent it just too small for
you to fit inside.

Very funny and enjoyable.

reverb rating:  9
-----------------------
ripflesh   Rippled Flesh, an Interactive Goosing by Rybread Celsius (Inform)
           Release 1 / Serial number 960914

Juvenile.  Illogical.  Bizarre.  Frustrating.  Play this one through
with the hint file at hand, if at all.  There's some potential here,
but, as the author says, this is his first game, and it shows.  It would
'prolly' be better to wait to play his next one (although, as of this
writing, I haven't played the other one by this author--kind of a
frightening prospect)

ripflesh rating:  2
-----------------------
sherbet    The Meteor, the Stone and a Long Glass of Sherbet:
           The Interactive Memoirs of a Diplomat, by Angela M. Horns (Inform)
           Release 1 / Serial number 960928

This was a very fun game, and a 'tribute' to the old Zorks and
Enchanters.  At first, I wasn't sure about that, since the style seemed
to be completely different.  I'm sure the game would not have suffered
without the old Zork references,...but then again, I'm not sure they
needed to be taken out either.  It was nice to find places where you
_thought_ you knew what was going on, or how a puzzle was going to work,
only to find that it was set up differently.  There were one or two
brilliant puzzles, several good ones, and the rest were decent.  This
was a fun game to play, with a compelling setting and plot.

sherbet rating:  9
-----------------------
smallwld   Small World, Interactive Fiction by Andrew D. Pontious (TADS)
           Release 1.0

This is a light-hearted game, with an interesting setting.  Several
funny jokes, some clever puzzles, some easy puzzles, and one or two
"read the author's mind" puzzles, but the hint system (usually) worked
fine.  I didn't connect with the protagonist as much as I might have;
the characterization that was there was nice, and was mentioned several
times, but didn't seem to have much to do with solving the puzzles.  The
ending 'moral' was a bit stretched for my taste.  Still, a good game
overall.

smallwld rating:  6
-----------------------
stalker    The House of the Stalker (gamma 0.9), by Jason Clayton White (Inform)
           release 1 / Serial number 960930

This game started off promising, but collapsed in the end.  There was
very nice set-up, some back history of the main character that wasn't
strictly relevant to the plot, but was very nice detail, and an okay
puzzle or two.  Then the stalker showed up and ruined the effect.  The
fact that he was 'inanimate' and 'static' probably contributed to this. 
The parser was rude (on purpose, granted) but was still annoying.  There
were bugs, too, that hindered gameplay.  Ultimately, there was a lot of
potential here that was unrealized.

stalker rating:  5
-----------------------
stargaze   Stargazer: Prologue, an Adventure in Outfitting by Jonathan Fry
           (Inform)
           Release 1 / Serial number 961015

Something about the opening room in this game made me think, "Oh, no,
another hackneyed old quest game."  I quickly lost that attitude as I
progressed.  This game, true, seems to be set in some mideval fantasy
land.  But hints of detail are given throughout gameplay in a
Planetfallesque manner about the history of the planet which is
certainly unique and presumably well thought-out.  Simple puzzles that
flow easily from game-play make this a good introduction to a game I was
genuinely disappointed I wasn't going to be able to play when I reached
the end.

stargaze rating:  9
-----------------------
tapestry   Tapestry, an Interactive Destiny by Daniel Ravipinto (Inform)
           Release 1 / Serial number 961010

Excellent.  Very thought-provoking, and although there are many times
when it is impossible to do anything constructive, the prose flows
fairly well, and interest is kept.  The few turns that pass between the
other character's monologues are probably for the best, since they allow
some experimentation, and examination of the surroundings.  All the
puzzles flow very naturally from the story, with the possible exception
of the moon one.  The use of the adaptive hint system here is likewise
excellent.

tapestry rating:  10
-----------------------
wok        Sir Ramic Hobbs and the Oriental Wok, by Gil Williamson (AGT)
           Version 1.1s; AGT runtime for DOS included

This was a very funny game.  Slightly campy, but still fun.  Some good
puzzles, some not-so-good puzzles, and a couple what-was-he-thinking?
puzzles.  Very good characterization of the protagonist, with a neat
'gimmick' of having an invisible wizard companion berating you the
entire time.  At little hackneyed, but decent.

wok rating:  7



From adam@yuma.Princeton.EDU Tue Dec 10 10:41:28 MET 1996
Article: 19448 of rec.games.int-fiction
From: adam@yuma.Princeton.EDU (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: The Classic Puzzles
Date: 9 Dec 1996 15:03:52 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
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References: <58akhk$j2c@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <58et3m$k8m@cc.tut.fi> <cleofax-0912961943270001@noho-us110.javanet.com>
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In article <cleofax-0912961943270001@noho-us110.javanet.com>,
Russ Bryan <cleofax@javanet.com> wrote:
>Agreement with Christminster, but if you enjoyed The Bank of Zork, perhaps
>you could take a moment to explain it to me.  It seemed to me like your
>basic trial and error puzzle -- no logical being could look at all the
>elements and say "Oh, so that's how I'm going to solve it ..."

It's a state machine.  Where you emerge from the is determined by
the direction from which you last entered the room with the curtain.

Spoiler for Zork II


You can't leave that room with treasures, but you can leave the viewing
room with treasures.  So you have to load up on the bills and portrait,
drop them in the curtain room, leave and reenter from the east or west,
then snag the treasures and enter the curtain.

Adam
-- 
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | adam@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928


From erkyrath@netcom.com Fri Dec 13 09:34:49 MET 1996
Article: 19527 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!erkyrath
From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Cyclops puzzle in Zork I: How does one solve it?
Message-ID: <erkyrathE2Bqr2.F35@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Yeechang Lee (ylee@columbia.edu) wrote:
> ObInteractiveFiction: Yes, I'm one of the many who only "solved" the
> cyclops puzzle in Zork I through a walkthrough's help.  Can someone
> explain where the clue to the solution is found in the game itself?
> Or is it truly meant to be an unfathomable riddle?

(SPOILERS, yeah, for Zork 1.)

Speak you of the solution of giving the cyclops a sandwich, or saying 
"Odysseus"?

The sandwich seems to be just "feed the monster, maybe it'll help."

Saying "Odysseus" is hinted all over the place, if you know the Odyssey. 
First of all, Odysseus (or Ulysses, both names work) is a famous hero who 
defeated a cyclops -- *the* cyclops, in fact. If you have heard of a 
cyclops, you know the story of how Odysseus killed one. Or else you've 
just read the D&D monster manual, and should educate yourself better. :)

Furthermore, the prayer book in the temple *is* the story of the Odyssey, 
just to remind you. 

And finally, of course, the first letters of the poem in the prayer book 
spell out "ODYSSEUS". (Less obvious on the 40-column Apple screen that I 
played on, since the poem lines get split, but it's still visible. I 
think the alternate half-lines are indented.)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From byzantium@tuna.net Sun Dec 15 08:48:16 MET 1996
Article: 19570 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Andrew D. Pontious <byzantium@tuna.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Walk-Through for Small World
Date: 14 Dec 1996 17:08:15 GMT
Organization: Small World Preservation Society
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X-XXDate: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 17:12:44 GMT

I was asked by someone for a walk-through for Small World, and I've heard
here about other people having problems with the hints, so for your
enjoyment, I hereby include a walk-through. The commands have been tested
on my computer, but if you find anything that doesn't work, let me know.
Also, there's a more English-like description before each section telling
you what you're doing and a little bit about why.
I may post this on the archive.

[Spoiler Space]















(Note: The sun-defined regions can be gone to by merely typing their name
or the first two letters of their name. Also note some commands in the
walkthrough are incomplete or abbreviated: the game will fill in the
proper items for you. This is meant to be quick and dirty, with the least
amount of typing necessary.) 

GETTING RID OF DEVIL
(Take satellite from midnight--unlike other objects in gravity unsafe
zones, the satellite is stabilized by its thrusters so you can take it
the first time. In evening, scoop the ice cream from the top of the
mountain with the satellite. Go to twilight to begin the devil summoning.
Then go back to dawn so you're in a gravity-safe place. Wait for the
devil to appear, then give him the scoop, which he'll eat and which will
send him back to hell. Take everything, and for fun, read the contract.) 

mi
take satell
w
scoop ice
w
n
da
z
give ice
take all

GOING TO SUN
(Prepare yourself for morning by taking off the boots--otherwise the
lagoon water will be spoiled--and emptying the canteen. Then, in morning,
fill the canteen with the lagoon water. Go to noon--leaving on your
socks, which are needed to protect you from the sandworm, but leaving off
your boots, which prevent you from feeling the depressions where you'll
pour the water--and pour out the water to make the desert bloom so the
dust will stop and you can jump up. Go to evening to wash out your socks,
then put on the pants and the socks and boots so you're prepared for the
heat of the sun.) 

open pack
drop boots
open canteen
drink gatorade
e
fill
e
pour
w
w
take socks
w
wash socks
e
wear pants and socks and boots
n
no
u

THE SOLAR SYSTEM
(Go to the ring planet and walk on the loose ring. Go back to the small
world to pick it up in dawn and wear it. Then go to the gas giant, where
you'll float using the ring and breathe in some gas. Go to the green
planet, get tied down, and breathe out the gas to scatter the little
men--some of whom get caught in your clothes. Open the chest, then wave
and point the wand to break its protection. Take the magic pipe--though
the other items are fun to play with, too.) 

e
walk on ring
u
n
da
take ring
wear it
n
no
u
s
breathe in
u
take wand
sw
breathe out
open chest
wave wand
point it at chest
take pipe
u
u
n
da

OPENING DOOR TO HOLE IN WORLD
(Look at the commotion through the magnifying glass; the little green men
will indirectly trigger the end of the temptation and open heaven for
you. Go to the south pole and look at the stars. Go to dawn again and
tell Pete the word the stars give you. Then go to afternoon and use the
combination Pete gave you to open the door there.) 

x commotion with glass
s
x stars {remember the word they give you} da
say "{word from stars}" {remember combination Pete gives you} n
af
turn lock to {first number}. turn lock to {second number}.turn lock to
{third number} open door

GETTING THE WORLD TURNING AGAIN
(In the hole in the world, you want to fiddle with the magic pipe until
its ends match the ends leading from the motor to the north pole, and
then figure out a way to connect the magic pipe. The trick is that one
press of the swirled button changes the *one* end. But two presses in
succession change the *other* end. So change the other end *first* by
pressing the swirled button twice as many times as needed, then change
the one end by alternating the solid and swirled buttons, so only the one
end is changed and the other end stays how you've already set it.
Finally, the only way to attach both ends is to find out where the magic
pipe changes shape from a sine-wave shape to a straight line. All other
changes don't make the ends fit smoothly. Keep pressing the solid button
until you've figured out the sequence. Once you know the sequence, change
the magic pipe to the sine wave shape, attach *one* end, and then press
the solid button. Voila! Done. Go back up to the surface and turn the
key.) 

d
push swirled.g.g.g.g.g
push solid.push swirled
push solid.push swirled
push solid.push swirled
push solid.push swirled
push solid.push swirled
push solid.push swirled
push solid.g.g.g.g
attach blue to blue
push solid
u
n
turn key


From tbarrie@cycor.ca Wed Dec 18 09:50:20 MET 1996
Article: 19626 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: tbarrie@cycor.ca (Trevor Barrie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Cyclops puzzle in Zork I: How does one solve it?
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 22:37:14 GMT
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erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:

(Spoilers for Zork I.)























>> >First of all, Odysseus (or Ulysses, both names work) is a famous hero who 
>> >defeated a cyclops -- *the* cyclops, in fact. 
>
>> No, *a* cyclops. Polyphemus was quite explicitly a member of a whole race of
>> cyclopes. Or did you just mean that this was the same one as in Zork I? (Was
>> that one blind? I don't recall.)
>
>No, no, I'm sorry. I didn't mean there was only one cyclops in the 
>Odyssey (although for some reason I thought so -- look, I'm a geek, I 
>haven't read it since junior high school). I meant that the Odysseus 
>story is the only mention of cyclopes in our fictional storehouse. 

Ah. You're probably right there.

>It's not like, say, dragons -- there are dragon legends from all over the 
>place, not obviously connected. Well, maybe in Homer's time there were 
>cyclops legends all over the place, but all of them have been lost except 
>one. Unless some historian knows otherwise.

There probably were - in the Cyclops scene, he doesn't seem to explicitly
state anything about it (they) being one-eyed or of giant stature, which
implies to me that his audience already knew what a Cyclops is.

Also, I've heard that "cyclopean" masonry is so-called because some people
of antiquity thought they were built by the cyclopes, but that could folk
etymology; I haven't seen it in a dictionary.

>> Eh. D&D or not, in my experience most people will know that a cyclops is a
>> one-eyed monster; few of them are familiar with the Odyssey.
>
>That's exactly my point. All of them learned it from some source which 
>traces back to the Odyssey.
>
>> >Furthermore, the prayer book in the temple *is* the story of the Odyssey, 
>> >just to remind you. 
>
>> Maybe I'm not being metaphorical enough, but I don't see how Odysseus'
>> problems were caused by him going around saying unto others "Hello
>> sailor".:)
>
>Not *him* specifically, but all the events apply. His ship was thrown 
>upon the rocks, he poked out someone's eye with a sharp stick... and unto 
>the land of the dead he eventually went.

I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. So was that Odysseus in Zork
III?:)



From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Dec 19 12:54:25 MET 1996
Article: 19657 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Zork Nemesis: deserving of the name?
Message-ID: <erkyrathE2MrII.481@netcom.com>
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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 22:23:05 GMT
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Paul S Winalski (winalski@zko.dec.com) wrote:
> Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> > 
> > It has nothing to do with Zork. There are a lot of Zork references, which
> > have nothing to do with the background *or* the story, so you're best off
> > ignoring them.

> Well, actually both Return to Zork and Zork:Nemesis do fit into
> the Zork mythological background, after a fashion.  Both are
> set in the scientific era, after the end of the age of
> enchanters.  Return to Zork occurs well after that event,
> and the connection to the Zork mythology is pretty lame.  They
> did a bit of a better job with Zork:Nemesis, which is set
> right in the time of turmoil when the power of the enchanters
> is breaking.  The story line of Zork:Nemesis in fact deals
> directly with alchemy, considered heresy by the Council of
> Enchanters.  Z:N is both a better-designed game than RTZ and
> also better integrated into the overall Zork mythology.

Nope, I don't buy it. (About mythology.) The mythology of alchemy is
entirely new; it doesn't fit in with anything in the Infocom games; nor
does it feel like it *evolved* from that scenario. It's entirely new laws
of physics here. They *say* that the Enchanters considered alchemy 
heresy, but that's a cheat -- they'd have to either find support for that 
dynamic in the old games, or put in something in the new game which 
*showed* how the old system was failing. But there was no trace of the 
old world. ZN is entirely self-contained.

The terrain doesn't make me think it's in the same world. The social
structures don't either.  There just isn't any connection. 

Compare "Frobozz Magic Support" and "Spiritwrak" and "...Sherbet", all of 
which do a far better job (in different ways) of fitting into the Zork 
universe. And note that "Sherbet" takes place centuries later, with only 
the faintest traces of ancient Quendor visible -- but they're there. 
"Spiritwrak" also plays with the idea of evolution of the scenes seen in 
the old games. The central magical structure of "FMS" is entirely new, 
but it's in the Infocom spirit. So I'm not advocating stagnation here.

And (I repeat for the record) I thought "ZN" was a very well-designed 
game, and its mythology was terrific. It just should have been called 
"Nemesis".

--Z



-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From daly@PPD.Kodak.COM Mon Dec 30 12:41:35 MET 1996
Article: 19715 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: daly@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Zork Nemesis: deserving of the name? (RELEVANT TO THE GROUP!)
Date: 20 Dec 1996 13:46:44 GMT
Organization: Eastman Kodak Company
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Reply-To: daly@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly)
NNTP-Posting-Host: titan.ppd.kodak.com

In article <32B8653A.4822@zko.dec.com> winalski@zko.dec.com writes:
>Andrew Plotkin wrote:
>> 
>> It has nothing to do with Zork. There are a lot of Zork references, which
>> have nothing to do with the background *or* the story, so you're best off
>> ignoring them.
>
>Well, actually both Return to Zork and Zork:Nemesis do fit into
>the Zork mythological background, after a fashion.  Both are
>set in the scientific era, after the end of the age of
>enchanters.  Return to Zork occurs well after that event,
>and the connection to the Zork mythology is pretty lame.  They
>did a bit of a better job with Zork:Nemesis, which is set
>right in the time of turmoil when the power of the enchanters
>is breaking.  The story line of Zork:Nemesis in fact deals
>directly with alchemy, considered heresy by the Council of
>Enchanters.  

Actually, no.  Here's a quick one-question quiz: Where does ZN
fall into the GUE series?  Answer after a ^L...


According to the ZN journal, the game starts on 29 Mage 948.  And,
according to the Encyclopedia Frobozzica, this is the year that
management of the GUE was turned over to the second Dungeon Master
(i.e. the year that Zork I-III took place).  So, not only does
Zork: Nemesis take place during the Age of Magic, it takes place
before any of the games in the Enchanter Trilogy.  Why, Belboz
hadn't even taken over as head of the Enchanter's Guild!

Here's as much of the breakdown as I know: 

Zork Zero:                 883 (prolog in 789)
Zork I, II, III, Nemesis:  948
Enchanter:                 952
Sorcerer:                  957
Beyond Zork, Spellbreaker: 966

The main action of Wishbringer took place sometime within the tenth
century, but it is not further specified.  I don't know about the dates
for RTZ or any of the second-generation games.

Perhaps the fact that you succeeded in forging the metals in ZN while
the alchemists couldn't is that they did their work under the reign
of the first Dungeon Master, while you are working under the second.
And maybe all the alchemy woke up Krill and Jearr, setting the stage
for the later works.  But maybe I'm thinking about this more than
the Activision people did. :-) :-)

>Z:N is both a better-designed game than RTZ and
>also better integrated into the overall Zork mythology.

I'll second that.  At the same time it's a "Myst" game and not really
a "Zork" game.

-Matthew
--
Matthew Daly             I don't buy everything I read ... I haven't
daly@ppd.kodak.com       even read everything I've bought.

My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, of course.


From adcarnev@unix.amherst.edu Mon Dec 30 12:42:43 MET 1996
Article: 19773 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: adcarnev@unix.amherst.edu (David Brinkley)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Zork Nemesis: deserving of the name? (RELEVANT TO THE GROUP!)
Date: 29 Dec 1996 05:38:52 GMT
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Matthew T. Russotto (russotto@wanda.vf.pond.com) wrote:
: In article <5991su$ee3@kodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM>,
: Matthew Daly <daly@PPD.Kodak.COM> wrote:
: }These are a couple of different questions:
: }
: }Does ZN have the "Zork atmosphere" that the original GUE games have?
: }You'd have to see that for yourself -- the glory of the GUE games is
: }that each player grasped that "atmosphere" on their own.  Personally,
: }I thought that it was much more so than RTZ.  In fact, I think that
: }Zork II had been done in multimedia it could have looked a lot like
: }ZN.

: Zork I, II, and III all had a different atmosphere, IMO.  Particularly
: III and I weren't similar.

Agreed. Now that I've played through four and a half of the nine ZN tasks,
I must say that I don't agree with everyone who says that ZN has nothing
to do with the other nine games in the Zorkian universe. Yes, they turned
Zork history in on itself to accomodate the Alchemy storyline, and perhaps
the motivation for making another game with the word "Zork" in its title
was to tap the built-in Zork audience, but they didn't make any changes
or veer from Zork mythology to any more of an extent than Beyond Zork did,
or Enchanter, or Zork II, for that matter. The nifty thing about the Zork
series is that each game built on to the preexisting structure, not
disturbing the foundations, but adding new little balconies and cupolas.
(Possibly excepting RTZ, which seemed to siphon a few key names and places
and leave nothing in behind.) ZN does it very classily, in a well-designed,
*fun* (albeit Myst-derived) manner which, in my opinion, thoroughly absolves
Activision of the travesty that was RTZ.

: RTZ and ZN were very different in that they were populated.

Uh... what do you call the "lean and hungry gentleman?"

--
toon		           "Goofy-ass white boy." -- random New Haven resident
adcarnev@unix.amherst.edu                     http://www.amherst.edu/~adcarnev


From tnaran@van-as-07a10.direct.ca Wed Jan  8 12:24:01 MET 1997
Article: 19934 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: tnaran@van-as-07a10.direct.ca (Travers Naran)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Programing
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 97 14:22:11
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References: <19970106222300.RAA08453@ladder01.news.aol.com> <19970106.D1660.1560D@van-52-0219.direct.ca> <5atjmh$cmb@news.lth.se>
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Magnus Olsson (mol@marvin.df.lth.se) pontificated:
> In article <19970106.D1660.1560D@van-52-0219.direct.ca>,
> Travers Naran <tnaran@van-52-0219.direct.ca> wrote:
> >DrGong1 (drgong1@aol.com) pontificated:
> >> I would like to program Some int-fiction Games, BUT the only language I
> >> can 
> >> program is BASIC, any lang. I should look at?
> >
> >There is a FAQ about writing interactive-fiction games, but I would
> >recommend thinking about what you want to write.  BASIC is fine (I've
> >done some fairly complicated parsers in it), but you might feel more
> >comfortable with TADS or Inform (although from personal experience,
> >Inform has a strong C/Pascal programming bent).

	<< deleted excellent analysis of AdvLangs vs. general-purpose
	langs >>

> Note: I don't think the perfect adventure writing language has been
> invented yet, and the existing ones can certainly be improved. But
> they are still better than Basic. 

I think that you've stated exactly what I wanted to say.  Since the
original poster is strongly familiar with BASIC, I figured he might
find doing some of the more regular chores easier with BASIC, but as
you said (and I tried to say), the Adventure Language systems out
there provide a really good library to save you a lot of work.  And
Once over the Learning Hump, you're home free!

Travers Naran -- Still trying to get a push up that Inform hill.

(P.S. When will someone port Inform 6.5 to the Amiga?? :-) )



From sandifer@crmse.sdsu.edu Wed Jan  8 12:24:25 MET 1997
Article: 19935 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: sandifer@crmse.sdsu.edu (cody sandifer)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Programing
Date: 8 Jan 1997 03:23:31 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
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In article <5aubj6$s5e@wnnews1.netlink.net.nz>, Stephen Griffiths
<stevgrif@moc.govt.nz> wrote:

> tnaran@van-52-0219.direct.ca (Travers Naran) wrote:
> >DrGong1 (drgong1@aol.com) pontificated:
> >> I would like to program Some int-fiction Games, BUT the only language I
> >> can program is BASIC, any lang. I should look at?
> >
> >There is a FAQ about writing interactive-fiction games, but I would
> >recommend thinking about what you want to write.  BASIC is fine (I've
> >done some fairly complicated parsers in it), but you might feel more
> >comfortable with TADS or Inform (although from personal experience,
> >Inform has a strong C/Pascal programming bent).
> >
> >Inform has the advantage that any computer with a Z-Code interpreter
> >can run your game; the downside is there is a steep learning curve for
> >writing something other than the most basic of games.
> 
> Both Inform and TADS have a C-like look and feel to them and have a pretty 
> steep learning curve.  I'd think a beginner who has only used Basic might 
> prefer to look at Alan or AGT.

Just thought I'd throw in an opinion, for any future programmers.

I can't comment on Inform, but I was able to program a game in TADS (156K
so far, including NPCs, daemons, etc.) without having had a programming
course in 10 years.  My only background is a year of basic (on the Apple
IIe!) and a semester of Pascal.  With TADS (and Inform, I suspect) you
have:  a) tons of sample code to analyze, dissect, and steal, if
necessary, and b) a well-written manual. With sufficient advance planning,
you should be able to turn out a decent game in less than a month.  Don't
expect to get much sleep, though.

Give it a try!

Cody Sandifer


From erkyrath@netcom.com Fri Jan 10 09:21:48 MET 1997
Article: 19985 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Is everyone either Newbie or Expert?  Is there an in-between?
Message-ID: <erkyrathE3rAKB.DrA@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:38:34 GMT
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Sender: erkyrath@netcom.netcom.com

> In article <JnW$IOAh59zyEwb$@amster.demon.co.uk>, Bob Adams
> <amster@amster.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >But for some really impressive pre-puberty-we-know-everything-and-are-
> >never-wrong egotism, take a look at re.arts.int-fiction. Asbestos
> >overalls essential.

Strangely, you're the only one who complains about this...

I can only conclude that you're a NAZI SYMPATHIZER who couldn't CARRY a 
LOGICAL ARGUMENT in a STONE BUCKET.

*And* you metabolize on Sundays.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From ian@io.com Fri Jan 10 12:54:48 MET 1997
Article: 19992 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: ian@io.com (Xiphias Gladius)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Stopping by Frobozz Magic Support on a Snowy evening (help needed)
Date: 9 Jan 1997 23:34:45 -0600
Organization: Illuminati Online
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dseybert@popd.ix.netcom.com (Dave Seybert) writes:

>Whose woods these are I think I know,
>Once here, frustration seems to grow.
>The tourist gives his head a shake,
>And says I'm making a mistake.
>I've seen the arrow and the moss,
>But still I'm stuck and at a loss.
>So please, if you should have a clue,
>I sure would like to hear from you.

See the tourist, see the trees.
See the moss wave in the breeze.
See the sun shine in the sky,
See some footprints bye and bye.
For a hint, close to a cheat --
The "x all" command is rather neat.
In every place there is a clue.
Find it!  "x all"'s the best way to.
But beware -- this has a fearsome sound --
One clue must be all turned around!
And further -- when the tourist moves,
Fey and chang'ed the forest proves!
So "x all" first, then "x" again,
And soon you will be right as rain.

	- Ian


From dgilbert@bu.edu Sat Jan 11 16:22:27 MET 1997
Article: 20028 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: dgilbert@bu.edu (David Gilbert)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: The ultimate in instant death
Date: 11 Jan 1997 14:05:15 GMT
Organization: Boston University
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Matthew Amster-Burton (mamster@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: I was just playing a game that I had fond memories of--Tass Times in
: Tonetown.  I remember it for lines like, "Ennio sniffs the air like a
: young puppersnapper."

: What I didn't remember was that you can blunder into things like this.
: I hadn't encountered any "Snarl" before this point:

: "Snarl stands up and says, 'You're not from around here.'  Then he
: captures you and tortures you to death."  There's a picture of a
: dragon head.

: See?  We have come a long way.

: Matthew


Snarl would say "I hate tourists!" As far as I remember, there was a subtle
 clue that something was wrong.  As you wondered around, people would look at
you and scoff "Tourist!"  A slight clue, nothing that would tell you that
you'd get killed if you didn't get rid of your tourist-status.

The place I couldn't stand was the marsh et all. You'd get killed if you went
to far in the wrong direction.  Though I remember playing the game on an APPLE
IIGS and the ominous Jaws music always freaked me out.

  Only from the warped mind of,

  David L. Gilbert


From jmacb@medusa.u-net.com Mon Jan 13 22:27:54 MET 1997
Article: 20089 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jmacb@medusa.u-net.com (Jim MacBrayne)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Spellbreaker
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:01:14 GMT
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I've been replaying Spellbreaker for nostalgic reasons recently, and
it reminded me of what must have been the ultimate cheat - to crib
>from  the author's notes!

At the time I was playing it originally, there was a snippet in a
television program about Infocom, and on this there was an interview
with Dave Lebling. I recorded it, and indeed still have it to this
day.

In this interview he was described his experiences in the programming
of Spellbreaker, and I suddenly realised that on a sheet of paper
lying behind him on his desk there was a table layout of all the cubes
together with their names and where they were to be found. Some of the
details were difficult to make out, but by stopping the tape over and
over again I was able eventually to make out the entire table.

So here you have it - what Dave Lebling himself called the cubes . . .


#  |  Type  |      In               |      From      |    Using
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1  | Earth   | Belwit Square  |  --------------   | Lesoch
2  | Water  | Ogre cave       | Earth/Fire  | Throck
3  | Air        | Idol mouth       | Earth         | Malyon, Espnis
4  | Fire      | Grues' pillar      | Dark          | Snavig
5  | Dark    | Other rock       | Mind          | lava fragment
6  | Mind    | Maze 1            | Change     | comp.rose, Rezrov
7  | Light    | Grouper nest   | Water         | Snavig
8  | Life      | Roc nest         | Air/Water   | Carpet
9  | Death  | Prison              | Water/Air   | Tinsot
10| Change| Pipe middle     | Water         | Liskon
11| Magic  | volc outcrop    | Fire             | Blorple

There was also a map of the compass rose maze, and this went something
like this . . .


------------------------------------------------------
| /             \|                |                  |
|       1        |        2      |        3        |
| \             /|                |                  |
------------------------------------------------------
|                 |                |                  |
|        4       |        5      |         6       |
|                 |                |                  |
------------------------------------------------------
|                 |                | /              \|
|        7       |       8       |         9       |
|                 |                | \              /|
------------------------------------------------------

There was an indication that the "MIND" cube was in room 1, and that
you entered at room 9. Lines were drawn from room 9 to room 8, then to
room 6, and to room 2. Using this map made the puzzle simple to
understand, but I gather that many people found it fiendish.

Jim

PS You'll notice that the Soft" cube is missing from the list. I can't
think why this must be.



From svanegmo@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca Thu Jan 16 11:59:38 MET 1997
Article: 20162 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: svanegmo@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Stephen van Egmond)
Subject: Re: Definitive guide to Interactive Fiction
Sender: news@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (news spool owner)
Message-ID: <E42xt8.I22@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:34:19 GMT
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Adam Dawes  <adam@darkside.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Has anyone ever thought about constructing a definitive list of every single
>piece of interactive-fiction ever written?

> GIVE JOB TO ADAM

Adam, confident that he is doing a wondrous service for the world at 
large, leaps into his computer chair and starts typing.

A few hours later, Adam comes back asking about what Interactive Fiction 
*really* is, so he can tell if "Leisure Suit" Larry counts.

> TELL ADAM ABOUT REC.ARTS.INT-FICTION

Adam leaps into his chair and makes a post asking what counts as a piece 
of IF.

Three months later, once the thread has stopped being kicked to and fro, 
nobody is any more enlightened.  The most people have been able to agree 
on is "It's a fiction, and it's interactive.  You usually have to type to 
get anything done."

Adam looks confused.

> QUIT

Life doesn't work that way.


>It could stretch right back to the old days, with Adventure on mainframe
>machines, through the 8-bit computers (Spectrum, C64, BBC Micro etc.) through
>the current 16/32 bit machines (Atari ST, PC, Amiga, Macintosh, Archimedes)
>right up to the games being written on the cross-platform systems, such as
>Inform and TADS.

Seriously, this could drag on and on and on.  It also doesn't scale 
well.  If IF is to be taken seriously and succeed in the huge way we all 
wish it would, this would never be practical.  Conversely, I find that 
keeing track of all the IF games ever made reinforces the small-town, 
bunch-of-loons-on-a-rec.arts-newsgroup mentality.

The Adventure Game History (Ekman's) does a nice job of cataloguing the 
major influences on modern IF, and if-archive/games seems to cover just 
about everything else.

>The document could list the games categorised by platform or programming system
>(for the cross-platform games), and give details such as the author/publisher,
>brief description of the game, etc.
>
>I think this would be particularly useful to a lot of people, especially those
>seeking old games that they played many years ago and would like to play again
>with an emulator.

It would be pointless to tell people about the game unless it were stored 
somewere, and the if-archive does just that.

/Steve


From Linards.Ticmanis@post.rwth-aachen.de Thu Jan 16 17:10:14 CET 1997
Article: 20167 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Linards Ticmanis <Linards.Ticmanis@post.rwth-aachen.de>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Infocom's Shogun.  Where can I find it!
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:54:20 +0100
Organization: RWTH Aachen, Germany
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <32DE411C.23C93E64@post.rwth-aachen.de>
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Edward Franks wrote:
> 
> My glass typewriter shows Linards Ticmanis saying...
> [Snip]
> > > Actually, the Amiga floppy format was a bit odd so that it is probably
> > > not possible to read it on a non-Amiga drive,
> >
> > The problem is simply that the PC's floppy controller doesn't allow
> > access to the raw disk data and is not programmable. That's also the
> > reason you can't read C64 disks in PC 5.25" drives.
> 
>         In isn't just that.  Even if you had access to the raw disk PC
> disks are encoded in MFM format and micros like the C64 and Apple II
> use GCR.  Without rare specialty hardware it just can't be done.

Yes it is. Both methods consist of making a current through the head
flow one or the other way when writing, and of interpreting a pattern of
(tiny) inducted voltages that occur when reading (at those points when
the flow was reversed during the writing process.) The only difference
is in the interpretation.

Commodore drives allow access to the signal after just going through an
amplifier and trigger (i.e. as soon as we have a TTL conformant signal).
Therefore the 1571 (C128 drive) and the Amiga drives can read GCR and
MFM, it's just a question of software. The drives have a 6502 processor,
ROM, and, more importantly, RAM of their own, which the user can
transfer program code of his own into if desired, so I guess with some
bit-ironing you could easily get a 1541 (C64) floppy to read MFM (or FM,
or any other self-invented format at that, which some fast loaders and
copy protections did).
The PC drives, on the other hand, are "unintelligent" drives without a
processor of their own (a concept that didn't enter the PC world until
the advent of IDE, i.e. "Integrated drive electronics", hard drives -
The floppy concept basically hasn't changed since the days of the first
PC in 1981)
They deliver raw data to the Floppy controller, (which is very much more
complicated than a hard drive controller nowadays, since the hard drives
have their real controller built in, like Commodore floppy drives did.)
where it gets converted to the block data. The controller is a processor
that uses a microcoded ROM built into the chip to decode the data (which
comes in serially on just one wire btw.) either from FM or MFM format.
There's just no way to get around this on the PC, although the "special
hardware" you mention would have to consist of not more than a straight
attachment of the "raw floppy data" line to the PC's data bus, plus some
selection circuitry that maps it into one bit of some unused I/O port.
Everything else could be done by software.

Am I right ? If not, you can mail me.

Well this stuff really doesn't belong here I fear, but anyway there it
is.


-- 

Linards Ticmanis

<A HREF="mailto:ticmani@reze-1.rz.rwth-aachen.de">
ticmani@reze-1.rz.rwth-aachen.de</A>

<BRIBE> me. I'll leave.


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Thu Jan 16 20:16:19 MET 1997
Article: 20171 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Eric the Unready: Great Game.
Date: 16 Jan 1997 18:32:09 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <5bls79$f3a@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu


Just picked this up at Electronics Boutique two days ago for $2.99 (also
got X-com for 7.99 and Gabriel Knight for 12.99) and just finished it this
morning.  So, it's not too hard a game.  I did, however, bust a gut or two
playing it.  There are an incredible number of little in-jokes scattered
throughout the game, from a great Zork parody to a beautiful Star Trek
parody.

I hope Legend puts out its 8 game adventure pack soon, cause I'm going to
have to get it and play through the rest of their games.  Well, maybe not
the Spellcasting series, but I'm gonna play the rest of em.  Although,
come to think of it, I have 3 of their games in the original packaging
already...nah, I'd still like to have them on CD just in case.  Disks are
so damn messy.

Of course, Gabriel Knight is pretty good so far as well, but thank god for
spoilers, because Sierra is up to a lot of their usual hunt the dot
nonsense, and I'm only on day 2.  Still, I like the fact that the game
actually seems geared towards reasonably intelligent adults.

X-com, well X-com's just a great little evening waster.  Blowing up aliens
in imaginitive ways.  I was very happy to find that I could fire my rocket
launcher through a second story window at a sniper that was killing my
men.  Later, I tried the same thing with a grenade, and was not so happy
when my butterfingers soldier missed the window, bounced it off the wall,
and blew up three of my guys.  Also, the game is a bastard under
Windows95.  It crashes if I sneeze on it.  Still fun though.
-- 
=  SPAG Magazine  = Issues 1-9 at ftp.gmd.de:/if-archive/magazines/SPAG =
=       All       =  Ratings =     Issue 10 coming soon.  It's the      =
=      About      =  Reviews =        1996 I-F Competition Issue.       =
= Text Adventures =   News!  =        Editor: whizzard@pobox.com        =


From rglasser@penning.lanl.gov Sun Jan 19 16:28:08 MET 1997
Article: 20232 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Russell Glasser <rglasser@penning.lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Eric the Unready: Great Game.
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 01:38:44 -0800
Organization: UCSD
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Gerry Kevin Wilson wrote:
> 
> Just picked this up at Electronics Boutique two days ago for $2.99 (also
> got X-com for 7.99 and Gabriel Knight for 12.99) and just finished it this
> morning.  So, it's not too hard a game.  I did, however, bust a gut or two
> playing it.  There are an incredible number of little in-jokes scattered
> throughout the game, from a great Zork parody to a beautiful Star Trek
> parody.
> 
> I hope Legend puts out its 8 game adventure pack soon, cause I'm going to
> have to get it and play through the rest of their games.  Well, maybe not
> the Spellcasting series, but I'm gonna play the rest of em.  Although,
> come to think of it, I have 3 of their games in the original packaging
> already...nah, I'd still like to have them on CD just in case.  Disks are
> so damn messy.

	DO play the Spellcasting Series.  I know, they sound like they're on 
a maturity level with Leisure Suit Larry... well, actually, they are.  But 
they're fine Meretzky-grade writing and they're loads of fun, containing a 
few of the most original puzzles (S101) and innovative game styles (S301) 
that I've seen in interactive fiction.
	Also play TimeQuest at your earliest convenience.  That is on my 
list of all time best adventure games.

> Of course, Gabriel Knight is pretty good so far as well, but thank god for
> spoilers, because Sierra is up to a lot of their usual hunt the dot
> nonsense, and I'm only on day 2.

	It gets worse.  Get used to it.  Later on, Sierra also pulls their 
famous "Click every object on everything in the game" nonsense and their 
"Guess which sequence I'm thinking of and I won't let you progress until you 
guess correctly" nonsense, and of course their "You thought there wasn't 
anything here but you clicked on conversation item 3 a minute ago so now 
something has magically and inexplicably materialized" nonsense.

-- 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.  Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man."
                                -- George Bernard Shaw

Russell can be heckled at
        http://sdcc8.ucsd.edu/~rglasser


From josho@crosslink.net Tue Jan 21 10:13:35 MET 1997
Article: 20305 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Josh Mandel <josho@crosslink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Legend's "Lost Adventures" (was: Eric the Unready: Great Game.)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:29:18 -0500
Organization: Legend Entertainment
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Magnus Olsson wrote:
> 
> In article <5bls79$f3a@agate.berkeley.edu> Gerry Kevin Wilson wrote:
> > I hope Legend puts out its 8 game adventure pack soon, cause I'm going to
> > have to get it and play through the rest of their games.
> 
> Good news: I received my copy of "Lost Adventures" last Friday. It contains
> "Eric the Unready", the "Spellcasting" trilogy, "Gateway" and "Gateway II",
> "Time Quest" and "Companions of Xanth".
> 
> Somewhat confusing, possibly bad news: Along with the CD, there was a
> note saying that it was one of a "limited number" of games "produced
> to fulfill existing orders" (I ordered my copy last July). It sounds
> almost as if Legend had decided not to distribute the "Lost Adventures"
> though the normal channels (but in that case, why bother producing the
> limited series?).
> 
> If anybody from Legend reads this, perhaps he or she could clarify
> things? I've checked out www.legendent.com but it's not quite up to
> date and still talks about a "fall 1996" release date.
> 
> --
> Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
Magnus,

I'll be happy to clear things up. I've worked at Legend for the past two
years and only left the company as of the 1st of the year (the day they
surrendered CALLAHAN'S CROSSTIME SALOON, which is another story, boys
and girls).

Legend cut a deal several years back with Random House, to become part
of their software division (RandomSoft). At first a cooperative silent
partner, RandomSoft began to eat away at Legend's infrastructure and
eventually managed to basically get Legend's marketing department fired.
Randomsoft had the completed Lost Adventures probably about a year ago
and was going to publish it. But they have pretty much lost interest in
the game market.

Meanwhile, Legend went through a rout because RandomSoft didn't want to
invest anymore. We lost our Marketing department. We lost our PR
department. We became a DEVELOPER as opposed to a PUBLISHER; thus, it's
not within Legend's power anymore to publish the Lost Adventures by
itself. Legend has to find a publisher for the game. I believe this is
close to happening, if it hasn't happened already. 

Bob Bates and Mike Verdu are wonderful people who would rather lose
their OWN jobs than let the employees under their care lose THEIR jobs.
But this is a double-edged sword. Legend has been taken advantage of by
RandomSoft, but Legend sticks to its agreements, and they had legally
surrendered publishing rights to RandomSoft...which has been doing
nothing (probably out of sheer disinterest) to publish the collection.

For my part, I designed CALLAHAN'S CROSSTIME SALOON, and Legend cut a
deal with the devil to publish it: Take 2. The people who brought out
BATTLECRUISER 3000. They are doing the same hack job on CALLAHAN'S that
they did on BATTLECRUISER. Take 2 has done precisely one advertisement
for CALLAHAN'S, and it was an advertisement based on the Marketing
Director of Take 2 reading the title of the game and making stuff up
about it. The ad, currently visible in the Feb. issue of PC GAMER, leads
people to believe it's a Western with Aliens. This is utter bullshit;
there are NO Western elements in the game WHATSOEVER, and two aliens --
neither of whom are major characters amid a cast of hundreds.

I am in utter despair. Legend could very easily have taken Callahan's
back from Take 2 when Take 2 reneged on their agreement (the first of
many breaches of contract Take 2 has visited upon Legend), but that
probably would've meant closing Legend's doors and suing Take 2. Ever
the nice guys, Mike and Bob refused to assert their legal rights in
favor of keeping the company alive. 

The way this shakes out is: the game is coming out in rougher shape than
it should because Take 2 doesn't give a single shit. (It's still an
amazingly solid game, actually, and is probably more together than 99
games out of 100, but *I* see the missing animations, missing dialogs
(over 24,000 lines of text and dialog in the game), and other shortcuts
that Take 2 imposed. The game is coming out with virtually no
advertising other than what Legend and I have been able to get from the
magazines by virtue of our good relationships. What advertising there IS
for the sucks so badly that thousands of potential purchasers will
probably stay away if they think the advertisment's art or text actually
reflects the game's content.

Legend is what it's always been: a collection of very talented people.
But Bob and Mike are game designers, not businessmen, and while their
hearts are in the right place, their balls are not. Thus brilliant
products like the LOST ADVENTURES and CALLAHAN'S get shoveled under the
door because Legend's frankly too afraid to go head-to-head with those
forces in the industry that have the money and don't give a shit about
good work.

--Josh Mandel


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 22 09:41:18 MET 1997
Article: 20327 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Legend's "Lost Adventures" (was: Eric the Unready: Great Game.)
Date: 21 Jan 1997 17:01:29 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <5c2sp9$sjc@agate.berkeley.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu


I think I speak for all us text adventure lovers when I say, "Oh $hit."
That whole scenario has a VERY familiar smell to most ex-Infocommies.  It
smells like the end of another excellent gaming company.  Dang, and I even
sent them a resume.

I'd been wondering why I haven't seen anything from Legend since Shannara.
They even missed the Christmas season as far as I can tell, which is never
a good sign.  I hope they get back on their feet, I'd hate to see
Infocom's heir go the way of the Age of Magic.
-- 
	My new email address is: whizzard@pobox.com.
	If that's too long for you, try gkw@pobox.com.


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Jan 22 09:41:24 MET 1997
Article: 20319 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Legend's "Lost Adventures" (was: Eric the Unready: Great Game.)
Message-ID: <erkyrathE4DCnI.8xA@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
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Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:30:53 GMT
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Gerry Kevin Wilson (whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:

> I think I speak for all us text adventure lovers when I say, "Oh $hit."
> That whole scenario has a VERY familiar smell to most ex-Infocommies.  It
> smells like the end of another excellent gaming company.  Dang, and I even
> sent them a resume.

> I'd been wondering why I haven't seen anything from Legend since Shannara.
> They even missed the Christmas season as far as I can tell, which is never
> a good sign.  I hope they get back on their feet, I'd hate to see
> Infocom's heir go the way of the Age of Magic.

Dunno about "Infocom's heir", but I was kind of curious about their 
Callahan's Saloon game, which was supposed to be the next one. I was 
briefly talking to them back in September about being hired to help 
finish it, or something. (I hope I'm not leaking sensitive info here... 
well, it was three months ago.) I never pursued the offer because it was 
IBM programming and I'd had quite enough of that.

(Notice I'm claiming full control here... heh... in fact, for all I know, 
they had no interest in me and the phone interview was just pro forma.)

Anyway, they certainly would have been aiming that for Christmas. Hm.
--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Jan 22 09:41:49 MET 1997
Article: 20340 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Legend's "Lost Adventures" (was: Eric the Unready: Great Game.)
Message-ID: <erkyrathE4E4u7.JzD@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:39:43 GMT
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Sender: erkyrath@netcom20.netcom.com

Josh Mandel (josho@crosslink.net) wrote:
> I'll be happy to clear things up. I've worked at Legend for the past two
> years and only left the company as of the 1st of the year (the day they
> surrendered CALLAHAN'S CROSSTIME SALOON, which is another story, boys
> and girls).

> Legend cut a deal several years back with Random House, to become part
> of their software division (RandomSoft). At first a cooperative silent
> partner, RandomSoft began to eat away at Legend's infrastructure and
> eventually managed to basically get Legend's marketing department fired.
> Randomsoft had the completed Lost Adventures probably about a year ago
> and was going to publish it. But they have pretty much lost interest in
> the game market.

> Meanwhile, Legend went through a rout because RandomSoft didn't want to
> invest anymore. We lost our Marketing department. We lost our PR
> department. We became a DEVELOPER as opposed to a PUBLISHER; thus, it's
> not within Legend's power anymore to publish the Lost Adventures by
> itself. Legend has to find a publisher for the game. I believe this is
> close to happening, if it hasn't happened already. 

Sigh. I am familiar with this particular sensation of being slowly nailed 
to the wall. (Did you hear any horror stories from Magnet refugees while 
you were at Legend? Or maybe Magnet was the place you made fun of when 
things got really bad... I dunno. :)

I am not terribly familiar with recent Legend games, since I've never 
owned an IBM. I did, however, buy the three Spellcasting games just so 
that I could play them on school computers at college. (The power of 
Meretzky's name was such that it got me to *touch* an IBM. A moment of 
silence, please.) They had merit.

And I've just gotten finished saying that Anthony's Xanth books read like 
IF transcripts, in a lot of places. And the Callahan's books live in the 
"important" section of my bookshelf. 

The point of all this is, basically, that in spite of the many times I've
blasphemed at Legend's guts for not doing Mac versions... I want Callahans
and Lost Adventures anyway. When I see them, I'll buy them.

> Bob Bates and Mike Verdu are wonderful people who would rather lose
> their OWN jobs than let the employees under their care lose THEIR jobs.
> But this is a double-edged sword. Legend has been taken advantage of by
> RandomSoft, but Legend sticks to its agreements, and they had legally
> surrendered publishing rights to RandomSoft...which has been doing
> nothing (probably out of sheer disinterest) to publish the collection.

My conclusions from the last two years are: If you have a product you care
about, don't give it to The Industry. Work on it in your basement;  keep
your day job; don't sell stock; and don't sign anything. Assume that the
"mass market" will never hear of it. And, ideally, develop for some
totally unknown niche-market platform, because a high-quality fish can get
noticed in a small pond. In a big pond, the money currents are stronger 
than you are, and they will determine what happens, not your intent.

This is a depressing view, but hey, I write text adventures, so at least 
I take my own advice.

Anybody want to develop games for the BeBox? I've got this idea for a
kick-ass strategy game... 

--Z


-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From josho@crosslink.net Wed Jan 22 11:02:11 MET 1997
Article: 20361 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Josh Mandel <josho@crosslink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Legend's "Lost Adventures" (was: Eric the Unready: Great Game.)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 01:28:10 -0500
Organization: Legend Entertainment
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Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> 
> Josh Mandel (josho@crosslink.net) wrote:
> > I'll be happy to clear things up. I've worked at Legend for the past two
> > years and only left the company as of the 1st of the year (the day they
> > surrendered CALLAHAN'S CROSSTIME SALOON, which is another story, boys
> > and girls).
> 
> > Legend cut a deal several years back with Random House, to become part
> > of their software division (RandomSoft). At first a cooperative silent
> > partner, RandomSoft began to eat away at Legend's infrastructure and
> > eventually managed to basically get Legend's marketing department fired.
> > Randomsoft had the completed Lost Adventures probably about a year ago
> > and was going to publish it. But they have pretty much lost interest in
> > the game market.
> 
> > Meanwhile, Legend went through a rout because RandomSoft didn't want to
> > invest anymore. We lost our Marketing department. We lost our PR
> > department. We became a DEVELOPER as opposed to a PUBLISHER; thus, it's
> > not within Legend's power anymore to publish the Lost Adventures by
> > itself. Legend has to find a publisher for the game. I believe this is
> > close to happening, if it hasn't happened already.
> 
> Sigh. I am familiar with this particular sensation of being slowly nailed
> to the wall. (Did you hear any horror stories from Magnet refugees while
> you were at Legend? Or maybe Magnet was the place you made fun of when
> things got really bad... I dunno. :)
> 
> I am not terribly familiar with recent Legend games, since I've never
> owned an IBM. I did, however, buy the three Spellcasting games just so
> that I could play them on school computers at college. (The power of
> Meretzky's name was such that it got me to *touch* an IBM. A moment of
> silence, please.) They had merit.
> 
> And I've just gotten finished saying that Anthony's Xanth books read like
> IF transcripts, in a lot of places. And the Callahan's books live in the
> "important" section of my bookshelf.
> 
> The point of all this is, basically, that in spite of the many times I've
> blasphemed at Legend's guts for not doing Mac versions... I want Callahans
> and Lost Adventures anyway. When I see them, I'll buy them.
> 
> > Bob Bates and Mike Verdu are wonderful people who would rather lose
> > their OWN jobs than let the employees under their care lose THEIR jobs.
> > But this is a double-edged sword. Legend has been taken advantage of by
> > RandomSoft, but Legend sticks to its agreements, and they had legally
> > surrendered publishing rights to RandomSoft...which has been doing
> > nothing (probably out of sheer disinterest) to publish the collection.
> 
> My conclusions from the last two years are: If you have a product you care
> about, don't give it to The Industry. Work on it in your basement;  keep
> your day job; don't sell stock; and don't sign anything. Assume that the
> "mass market" will never hear of it. And, ideally, develop for some
> totally unknown niche-market platform, because a high-quality fish can get
> noticed in a small pond. In a big pond, the money currents are stronger
> than you are, and they will determine what happens, not your intent.
> 
> This is a depressing view, but hey, I write text adventures, so at least
> I take my own advice.
> 
> Anybody want to develop games for the BeBox? I've got this idea for a
> kick-ass strategy game...
> 
> --Z
> 
> --
> 
> "And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
> borogoves..."
Andrew,

Gotta say that I agree with every cynical statement you make. In fact, I
consider CALLAHAN'S my swan song in the graphic adventure game industry,
at least for the forseeable future. I just can't stand the direction the
industry's taking, or how mediocrity gets the big bucks while the gems
go relatively unrecognized.

Magnet has truly been one of the places we would compare ourselves to
when we needed to feel better. For a time, Ken Rolston of Magnet was
working on SHANNARA 2 for Legend, and his stories were the height of
entertainment for us on those dreary days when we didn't know if the
doors would be open in the morning. Ken was one of the early casualties
that Take 2 caused, and I believe he landed right on his feet at
Bethesda Softworks.

I'm glad to hear you'll pick up CALLAHAN'S, though. I visited Spider
Robinson for the first time several days ago, and the two of us spent
nearly 12 hours straight playing the game and only scratching the
surface. His final reaction was that we had achieved the impossible; he
had thought we were fools for even trying (but since we were fools with
a checkbook, he didn't grouse!)...but that he'd been telling everybody
who'd listen that there was no way we could do it. His final words to me
as I pulled away from his Vancouver digs were, "You done me proud."

Now if I can just convince him to invest in a PC so that he can play the
damn thing when he gets his copies...

--Josh


From jdyer@kitts.u.arizona.edu Thu Jan 23 00:12:18 MET 1997
Article: 20379 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!ncar!noao!math.arizona.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!kitts.u.arizona.edu!jdyer
From: jdyer@kitts.u.arizona.edu (Jason B Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Lost Adventures comment
Date: 22 Jan 1997 19:26:13 GMT
Organization: The University of Arizona
Lines: 16
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NNTP-Posting-Host: kitts.u.arizona.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

(I pushed the wrong button, so Magnus was originally the only
one who got this. Oops.)

I called Legend and asked them about Lost Adventures. They said
it will be published in about 60 days by Mindscape. The version
they are shipping now, sans box, is apparently to satiate those
who have been waiting for a long time.

Mindscape published a game last year, Azrael's Tear, which is actually
quite interesting -- basically three dimensional IF. Not exactly "DOOM
with puzzles, characters, and a plot", but that is the only
description I can think of at the moment. Unfortunately, it went almost
unnoticed by the gaming community.

Jason Dyer
jdyer@u.arizona.edu


From werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at Thu Jan 23 15:38:44 MET 1997
Article: 20388 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at (Werner Punz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Lost Adventures a short review
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:59:15 GMT
Organization: Johannes Kepler University Linz
Lines: 57
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Ok here is the promised review.

Lets start with a strange thing which seems to have an exact
correlation with Mandel's posting. I also received the note  Magnus
Olson did, there was only content but no package so it really seems
that Legend has difficulties to get the thing into the stores and only
fulfills the backorders. (Josh Mandel gave a possible explanation
why).


Just in case you want to know here is the full letter:
>We apologize for the delay in completing your order for The Lost Adventures. 
>We have produced a small quantity of this game to fulfill existing orders. However, 
>we do not have a game box. In place of the game box we are enclosing a coupon
>for one free hint book of your choice.
>We would like to thank you for your patience.

Now to the review

The whole thing comes on one CD and all the necessary stuff (i.e. all
the stuff except the hintbooks of the Gateway Series) comes in a
printed booklet and a rather big printed map.

The games: included are:
Spellcasting 101,201,301,Timequest,Eric the unready, Gateway,
GatewayII, Xanth, and several self running demos.

The quality of the games. I think it's useless to talk about the
quality of the included games, they are all excellent. 
(There is a reason why Gateway I is my favorite game together with
AMFV)
Who ever has played one of those games will admit this too. Except
Xanth they all have a full text parser. Xanth has the newer Legend
interface which can be compared to LucasArts Scumm interface.The games
are all disk versions except GatewayII which is the CD version
(yippieh).

The games are as published the first time. There are no redrawn SVGA
graphics etc... 

Installation:Installation was under Windoze and flawless. The
installer doesn't have a deinstallation program. (Who care you simply
delete it from your HD if you want to get rid of the games) You start
every program either from dos or with the program which is started via
the CD autostart. There are is program group generated for the thing
(Guess I'll do it manually this evening).

If anybody from Legend reads this(and I'm sure they do). This is an
excellent thing. I really hope you'll get out of the current publisher
troubles and can release it to a broader public.

Werner
mailto://werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at
http://witiko.ifs.uni-linz.ac.at/~werpu/
----------------------------------------------
Check out ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/ for something 
which has been forgotten years ago.


From jmontanu@legendent.com Thu Jan 23 15:38:52 MET 1997
Article: 20403 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: "James A. Montanus" <jmontanu@legendent.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Legend's "Lost Adventures"
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:52:46 -0500
Organization: Legend Entertainment Company
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <32E7510E.2952@legendent.com>
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Magnus Olsson wrote:

> Somewhat confusing, possibly bad news: Along with the CD, there was a
> note saying that it was one of a "limited number" of games "produced
> to fulfill existing orders" (I ordered my copy last July). It sounds
> almost as if Legend had decided not to distribute the "Lost Adventures"
> though the normal channels (but in that case, why bother producing the
> limited series?).

This is the scoop. The Lost Adventures exists, we've just had problems 
with our agreement with our distributor. Since we knew the distributor
was unable to publish the game immediately, we decided to do a small
print run, and send copies of The Lost Adventures to those of you
(our loyal fans) who had been waiting.

To repeat, we are planning on normal distribution channels. 

Jim Montanus
Legend Entertainment


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Fri Jan 24 09:55:13 MET 1997
Article: 20424 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!agate!uclink.berkeley.edu!whizzard
From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: ZORK: The Grand Inquisitor
Date: 23 Jan 1997 21:42:55 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <5c8m0v$6sj@agate.berkeley.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu


Well, I just read a Computer Gaming World article on Zork: Grand
Inquisitor, and I think that it sounds pretty good.  The picture of the
white house they show is specifically described as "concept art only"
meaning it's not going to appear in the game.  The plotline (magic
creeping back in after the End of Magic in 996 and one wizard trying to
retain control of all magic through an inquisition) is interesting, if
hard to correlate with the end of Spellbreaker.

I went in for an interview there a week or so ago and they showed me some
stuff from the new Zork that they had set up.  It was really nifty.  The
programming is quite simple, and as long as they have an army of
illusrators, they could easily have all sorts of weird things happen when
you try to use the steak sauce on the spellbook, or whatever.

Anyways guys, it's early yet to be bitching about it.  The magazine
article really doesn't have that much information in it other than Laird
Malamed (whom I met when I was helping on Masterpieces) saying that he
wants to remain true to the Zork series, which is what most folks were
whining about with Z:N.  It is possible to remain true to a setting and
yet still be original.  How else do you think Infocom was able to set so
many games on Quendor?  Activision has been very receptive to our (the
text adventure community) wants and needs lately.  They've supported our
contest, given us free publicity, all sorts of stuff.  I really don't
think it's fair to jump on them before we have some kind of solid info to
go off.  I mean, they're using Inform to create a prototype of the game,
which ought to please even the most rabid Activision hater.  Hopefully
they'll include the text version with the final release.

Obviously I'm a bit biased on the subject, having worked with them and
gotten to know many of the people there a bit.  I was one of the
more vocal Activision bashers back when they were doing stuff like RtZ and
the whole LTOI packaging snafu, but I appreciate effort when I see it.

Anyways, that's enough yammering for one day, I've got to go check me out
a French-English dictionary at the library.
-- 
     Losing the war against dirty laundry...


From darkstar@c2.hinet.net Sun Jan 26 22:58:49 MET 1997
Article: 20450 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: darkstar@c2.hinet.net
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: LGOP2 Unexpected Benefit
Date: 25 Jan 1997 00:07:28 GMT
Organization: DCI HiNet
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X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   "C.E. Forman" <ceforman@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> writes:
>  jswitzer@aimnet.com (John Switzer) wrote:
>  >LGOP2 is a travesty, IMHO, and (also IMHO) Meretsky owes me big time
>  >for wasting my time and money on this piece of trash. Because of LGOP2,
>  >in fact, I won't be buying Planetfall 2 (assuming it's ever released),
>  >unless I hear *a lot* of rave reviews.

Regarding LGOP2, I found one unexpected fallout.  My son was able to play it all the way through on his own when he was just four 
years old, after seeing me get through it only once.  In this sense, it's a good gateway for introducing children to narrative games and 
to something of the ambience of interactive fiction.  Now let me hurry to emphasize before anyone flames, that four-year-olds, at least 
here in Taiwan, are generally illiterate, so expecting them to turn on to the standard all-text cursor would be futile.  But my son found 
the game exciting to plunge all the way through, liked the easter egg structure, and probably went through it twenty times or so over a 
one-year period.  From this perspective, even the game's notoriously slow pace becomes an advantage: time for the kid to ponder 
and ask questions, and time for me to read while he's playing.  It's slow enough to encourage the kid to think, not just spasm his 
thumbs off.

This is an unintended benefit of course, but a cool thing nonetheless.  Alas, there's no non-naughty setting.  Happily, there's nothing 
too unsuitable for kids.

Thomas Mullen
darkstar@hntp2.hinet.net		The bad news about living in Taiwan is you get
					two governments for the price of three.
			  	The good news about living in Taiwan is you 
					don't get as much government as you 
					pay for.




From joe.mason@tabb.com Mon Jan 27 15:07:04 CET 1997
Article: 20470 of rec.games.int-fiction
Distribution: world
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: The White House
From: joe.mason@tabb.com (Joe Mason)
Message-ID: <66.6860.1782@tabb.com>
References: <slrn5ed5rj.bt.katy@ll.aa2ys.ampr.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:20:00 -0500
Organization: Timmins Area BBS (705)268-0801
Lines: 28
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!news.ecrc.de!news.cybernet.dk!news.algonet.se!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!tabb!joe.mason

"Re: Availability Rainbird", declared mulveyr@frontiernet.net  from the 
Vogon ship:

m>I always pictured the outside of it more like my grandparents' house,
m>which was on the big size. I always knew there were more rooms on the
m>inside that we never got to see. (If you revisit Zork I, you'll see
m>that it's described as:

m>  >examine house
m>  The house is a beautiful colonial house which is painted white. It
m>  is clear that the owners must have been extremely wealthy.

You know, I don't think I ever read that.  *How* many times have I 
played Zork, and not thought to look at the house? :-)

m>So I hope Activision *is* watching -- please have pity on us and add 
m>subtitles to every single bit of speech in your next graphic adventure
m>game, with options to toggle speech, music and sound effects
m>separately.

Hear, hear!  Waiting through the speech every time they said the same 
thing was the *worst* part of RTZ - and if you ever have to replay a 
section cause you mess up your saved came, turning off the sound and 
flipping through the subtitles is much less nerve-racking.

Joe

 CMPQwk 1.42 9550 Don't anthropomorphize computers. They hate that.


From adam@yuma.Princeton.EDU Mon Jan 27 15:07:20 CET 1997
Article: 20471 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!solace!nntp.uio.no!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!cbgw1.lucent.com!cnn.Princeton.EDU!yuma.Princeton.EDU!adam
From: adam@yuma.Princeton.EDU (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: The White House
Date: 26 Jan 1997 07:38:31 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 21
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NNTP-Posting-Host: yuma-subnet124.princeton.edu

In article <66.6860.1782@tabb.com>, Joe Mason <joe.mason@tabb.com> wrote:
>m>  >examine house
>m>  The house is a beautiful colonial house which is painted white. It
>m>  is clear that the owners must have been extremely wealthy.
>You know, I don't think I ever read that.  *How* many times have I 
>played Zork, and not thought to look at the house? :-)

How many extremely wealthy homeowners do you know who have a beautiful
colonial house which contains no bedrooms, no bathrooms, no seats of any
sort, but a kitchen, an attic, and a living room?

Puts me in mind of the old Flint Ridge greeting (to bring this back into
the real roots of Adventure): "Howdy.  Ain't much of a house, but we got a
*hell* of a basement."

Adam
-- 
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | adam@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928


From char@infi.net Mon Jan 27 15:07:50 CET 1997
Article: 20491 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: char@infi.net (A. Lufe deTach'd)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: The White House
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:27:29 GMT
Organization: .357 Magnum Opus Productions
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On 26 Jan 97 19:26:00 -500, Richard H. Poser II <rhposer@fair.net>
wrote:
>On 26-Jan-97 19:21:11, darin@connectnet1.connectnet.com
>   (Darin Johnson) wrote the following:
>
>>>How many extremely wealthy homeowners do you know who have a beautiful
>>>colonial house which contains no bedrooms, no bathrooms, no seats of any
>>>sort, but a kitchen, an attic, and a living room?
>
>>How do you know there weren't any?
>
>I think the problem is that alot of people believe that the door with
>gothic lettering which is nailed shut leads to the outside of the house
>
>But, how do we know that it didn't lead to "Entrance Hall" which then has a
>nailed door (The Actual Front Door) and several rooms leading off, including
>possibly a couple bedrooms and even a bathroom....


The gothic lettered door leads down to the Cyclops Room (well, it can,
depending on how you take care of the one-eyed chap).

Perhaps in the GUE, "colonial" actually means "small two-room shack
with an attic and large, roomy basement."

--
Bring me the head of Dave Matthews!


From erkyrath@netcom.com Mon Jan 27 16:35:55 MET 1997
Article: 20498 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Availability Rainbird & Infocom Games
Message-ID: <erkyrathE4I5Hx.DLw@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
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Laird Malamed (lairdo@cltc.com) wrote:
> ..... <clip>

> > 
> > So I hope Activision *is* watching -- please have pity on us and add 
> > subtitles to every single bit of speech in your next graphic adventure
> > game, with options to toggle speech, music and sound effects separately.

> We are currently putting together a Subtitle patch for Zork Nemesis that
> will be available in the next month or so.  It will allow you to toggle
> them on or off from the preference screen. 

How are you dealing with the non-verbal sound puzzles? (At least two that 
I recall. I won't describe them, since you know what I'm talking about 
-- heh -- and there's no need for spoilers.)

> This will be included in Zork
> Grand Inquisitor as well.

By the way, just because I'm ranting and raving about ZGI doesn't mean I 
hate you personally. Think of it as a compliment -- no, really -- 

See, last year, I was very pleased and surprised to find that ZN had a
clever, coherent setting -- not at all imitative of the Zork games, except
for superficial references. I was hoping that you folks would keep the
creativity and tone down, maybe even ditch, the distracting attempts at 
Zorkness. Now I have been disappointed. Thus I say, damn.

I wouldn't have said damn if I hadn't been impressed with the last one.

Footnote: Somewhere in a bygone post Whizzard said something like "You 
can be original in an existing setting." In a sense, this is true. 
However this is not the sense I'm talking about. In the sense I'm talking 
about, that's crap. 

But I've ranted enough and I don't feel like putting what I mean into
words.  If you still don't understand me, play _So Far_ again -- that's
the best argument I've made on the subject. 

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From dtrg@st-andrews.ac.uk Mon Jan 27 22:23:00 MET 1997
Article: 20501 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: dtrg@st-andrews.ac.uk (David Thomas Richard Given)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Pohl's Gateway
Date: 27 Jan 1997 15:54:16 GMT
Organization: University Of St. Andrews, Fife, UK.
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In article <5c848n$n23@wanda.vf.pond.com>,
Matthew T. Russotto <russotto@wanda.vf.pond.com> wrote:
>In article <Pine.A41.3.95.970123085002.163184B-100000@login4.isis.unc.edu>,
>Michael Straight  <straight@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>}I just downloaded this game from the legend site (it's free folks! Go get
>}it --> http://www.legendent.com/gameinfo/lost.html), but after watching
>}the introduction I feel like I've just had some of the plot of the book
>}summarized for me.  Assuming I'm interested in the book, should I
>}read it before playing the game?  Will it spoil some of the surprises of
>}the game?

Not really. It's based on the *idea* of the books, but not the books 
themselves. Quite a lot of has been changed, such as internal politics and 
so on, and the overall plot is quite different. It's a great game, though.

>There's five books, IIRC --
>Gateway
>The Gateway Trip
>Annals of the Heeche
>Heeche Rendezvous
>Beyond the Blue Event Horizon
[...]

...but not in that order. _Gateway_ was first, _Annals_ last, and I can't 
remember about the others.

-- 
------------------- http://www-hons-cs.cs.st-and.ac.uk/~dg --------------------
   If you're up against someone more intelligent than you are, do something
    totally insane and let him think himself to death.  --- Pyanfar Chanur
---------------- Sun-Earther David Daton Given of Lochcarron ------------------


From erkyrath@netcom.com Mon Jan 27 22:23:19 MET 1997
Article: 20503 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's [Spoilers all along the thread]
Message-ID: <erkyrathE4opCv.JtF@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
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MaryMaryK (marymaryk@aol.com) wrote:
> --Well, how do you implemet "Take no tea" then ?

>     You pick up the icon of the tea cup with the "NO" sign just like any
> other item?

I think this really fails to convey the flavor of the original puzzle.

>     Besides, is anyone really looking forward to a HHGG graphics adventure
> that follows a storyline with puzzles /identical/ to the text version's? 
> What fun will that be?

Impossible in other ways too. There is no way to sensibly do the "getting 
out of the dark" set of puzzles. There is no way to do any number of 
other things. 

The interface always influences the design of the game, the puzzles, even 
the writing of the story. You can't just say "Bang, do this as a graphical 
adventure, keeping everything just the same."

Besides, "Hitchhiker's" changed its storyline between the radio series 
and the books, again for the TV series, again for the Infocom game, and 
the record album I heard once was different as well. Why keep it the same 
for a graphical adventure version? :)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From jota@laraby.tiac.net Tue Jan 28 00:07:48 MET 1997
Article: 20504 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jota@laraby.tiac.net (Admiral Jota)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Pohl's Gateway
Date: 27 Jan 97 22:36:59 GMT
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dtrg@st-andrews.ac.uk (David Thomas Richard Given) writes:
>In article <5c848n$n23@wanda.vf.pond.com>,
>Matthew T. Russotto <russotto@wanda.vf.pond.com> wrote:

>>There's five books, IIRC --
>>Gateway
>>The Gateway Trip
>>Annals of the Heeche
>>Heeche Rendezvous
>>Beyond the Blue Event Horizon

>...but not in that order. _Gateway_ was first, _Annals_ last, and I can't 
>remember about the others.

I just started reading them last Saturday (because of this thread, in
fact), so I think I can give the right orfer now:

Gateway
Beyond the Blue Event Horizon
Heechee Rendezvous
Annals of the Heechee
The Gateway Trip

I'm not sure about the whole list, because I've only gotten partway
through _Heechee Redezvous_ so far, but that's the way they're lsited
inside the front cover of _The Gateway Trip_. I just wish that my local
library had a copy of _Annals of the Heechee_ :(

--
                                      /<-= Admiral  Jota =->\
                                    -< <-= jota@tiac.net =-> >-
                                      \<-=- -=  -=-  -= -=->/


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Jan 28 02:02:33 MET 1997
Article: 20507 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: The White House
Message-ID: <erkyrathE4ozAK.D2o@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:13:31 GMT
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Sender: erkyrath@netcom.netcom.com

Darin Johnson (darin@connectnet1.connectnet.com) wrote:
> >>I think the problem is that alot of people believe that the door with
> >>gothic lettering which is nailed shut leads to the outside of the house

> I think the problem is people that assume that if something isn't in
> the description, that it isn't there at all.  The upstairs bedrooms,
> being of no use to the story, would be irrelevant to add to the game.

> I always felt odd when designing buildings in games, because I felt
> obligated to add all the possible rooms, lest some player complain
> that there was no bathroom.  And I felt odd having an exit say in
> essence "there's nothing useful past here".

Well, it's exactly that. There is no reason to think that Zork ever fails
to mention an exit. (There are other, later games where the author can
sensibly ignore exits that are irrelevant to the game. But that's not how
Zork is written. For example, it says things like "You can't go that 
way.")

> >Perhaps in the GUE, "colonial" actually means "small two-room shack
> >with an attic and large, roomy basement."

> Well, "colonial" *does* mean, the style used in a colony.  It's recent
> usage that has turned this into meaning a particular style that
> attempts to mimic the houses of rich people during the late US
> colonial period.  It's about as silly a term as "continental breakfast".
> A real colonial building would likely be distinctly unelegant.

Heh. True. Nonetheless, I bet that Blank&Lebling were thinking of exactly 
that recent usage. And I have no idea how they justified a three-room 
house in that context.

Although I agree with the point that the sealed door in the living room 
is not the front door of the house.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From winalski@zko.dec.com Tue Jan 28 09:32:34 MET 1997
Article: 20511 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Paul S Winalski <winalski@zko.dec.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: The White House
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:14:48 -0500
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
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References: <5cf1ln$qin@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <slrn5ent7l.hb1.darin@connectnet1.connectnet.com> <974.6965T1166T44@fair.net> <3950.6966T39T1545@fair.net> <5cj7ei$ik2@wanda.vf.pond.com>
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Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
> 
> Curiously enough, in some earlier revisions the voice said "Cretin."
> I wonder if people didn't understand "Cretin", or perhaps they didn't
> mind being called a fool but objected to being called a cretin? Or
> maybe Infocom wanted the 1.5 bytes back.

"Cretin" was common MIT hacker jargon at the time (see the Hacker's
Dictionary) and in that context has about the same connotations as
"fool" in normal speech.  Outside of hacker jargon, of course, it's
a pretty rude and insulting term, unless it's being used in its
precise medical meaning of one suffering mental retardation as
a result of adrenal deficiency in early childhood.  It's not an
epithet for use in polite conversation in the normal, non-hacker
world, so Infocom probably cleaned it up for the commercial
release of the Zork games.

My favorite use of the term in Zork was the command KILL CRETIN.
The game would say, "OK, you're dead." and you lost.

--PSW


From MKST21C@prodigy.com Tue Jan 28 09:32:49 MET 1997
Article: 20519 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: MKST21C@prodigy.com (Chris Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: The White House
Date: 28 Jan 1997 07:31:40 GMT
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>Entrance Hall
>This appears to be an entrance hall with open doorways to the north and
>south and a wooden door with strange gothic lettering to the east, 
which
>appears to be nailed shut.
>There are a lot of chairs piled in one corner.

  Good transcript, but you overlooked one thing. The Living Room's door 
with strange gothic lettering leads to a sloping passage down to the 
Cyclops Room. You discover this if you frighten the cyclops by mentioning 
the name of a mythological enemy of a cyclops. 
  So the Entrance Hall shouldn't have the same door to the east of it. 
Other than that, a fine bit of speculative writing about the rooms of the 
white house we never get to see even after playing Zork I 5000 times....

                                       Chris Lang



From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Jan 28 09:33:18 MET 1997
Article: 20507 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: The White House
Message-ID: <erkyrathE4ozAK.D2o@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
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Darin Johnson (darin@connectnet1.connectnet.com) wrote:
> >>I think the problem is that alot of people believe that the door with
> >>gothic lettering which is nailed shut leads to the outside of the house

> I think the problem is people that assume that if something isn't in
> the description, that it isn't there at all.  The upstairs bedrooms,
> being of no use to the story, would be irrelevant to add to the game.

> I always felt odd when designing buildings in games, because I felt
> obligated to add all the possible rooms, lest some player complain
> that there was no bathroom.  And I felt odd having an exit say in
> essence "there's nothing useful past here".

Well, it's exactly that. There is no reason to think that Zork ever fails
to mention an exit. (There are other, later games where the author can
sensibly ignore exits that are irrelevant to the game. But that's not how
Zork is written. For example, it says things like "You can't go that 
way.")

> >Perhaps in the GUE, "colonial" actually means "small two-room shack
> >with an attic and large, roomy basement."

> Well, "colonial" *does* mean, the style used in a colony.  It's recent
> usage that has turned this into meaning a particular style that
> attempts to mimic the houses of rich people during the late US
> colonial period.  It's about as silly a term as "continental breakfast".
> A real colonial building would likely be distinctly unelegant.

Heh. True. Nonetheless, I bet that Blank&Lebling were thinking of exactly 
that recent usage. And I have no idea how they justified a three-room 
house in that context.

Although I agree with the point that the sealed door in the living room 
is not the front door of the house.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From patrickc@Direct.CA Tue Jan 28 12:46:26 MET 1997
Article: 20524 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: patrickc@Direct.CA (Cthulhu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Pohl's Gateway
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 97 23:57:22 GMT
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In article <Pine.A41.3.95.970123085002.163184B-100000@login4.isis.unc.edu>, Michael Straight <straight@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>
>I just downloaded this game from the legend site (it's free folks! Go get
>it --> http://www.legendent.com/gameinfo/lost.html), but after watching
>the introduction I feel like I've just had some of the plot of the book
>summarized for me.  Assuming I'm interested in the book, should I
>read it before playing the game?  Will it spoil some of the surprises of
>the game?

No. You need the book for exactly ONE puzzle in the game (the "buy the guy a 
drink again"). Without knowledge of the book, the puzzle strikes me as grossly
unfair. WITH knowledge of the book, the solution should be pretty obvious.

And BTW, did you noticed that many of the scenes from the intro were covers 
>from  old Omni magazines?


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Jan 29 12:33:48 MET 1997
Article: 20556 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Request for Rylvania
Message-ID: <erkyrathE4qqr8.9Fs@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
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Omar Filmersson (omar.filmersson@stockholm.mail.telia.com) wrote:
> Hello! I hope someone can help me. Quite a long time ago before I was
> connected to internet I ordered the commercial version of The Horror of
> Rylvania (Macintosh version!) from the author, but a relative of his
> returned the payment since it was no longer avaliable. However, the
> intension was that the commercial version would be made freely available
> on the net, but I can still not find it. 

It will be on the GUA CD.

Dave Baggett has not uploaded it to ftp.gmd.de; I believe he was making 
noises about wanting it to be a GUA exclusive, at least for a while. (For 
which I duly thank him. Assuming I didn't misremember or misunderstand him.)

At any rate, the full version cannot be downloaded at this time. I have a 
copy for CD production, but I'm not the one who can decide whether it 
should be on ftp.gmd.de.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From josho@crosslink.net Wed Jan 29 12:47:09 MET 1997
Article: 20552 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Josh Mandel <josho@crosslink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Callahan's Crosstime Saloon demo
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:05:47 -0500
Organization: Legend Entertainment
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There's a playable demo of CALLAHAN'S CROSSTIME SALOON on the CD-ROM
that comes with the current (February) issue of Computer Gaming World.
The demo's sound is more compressed than in the final software, and
there were a few minor bugs in the demo that have been addressed in the
final product, but the demo is still absolutely worth the attention of
everyone on this board, especially those who bemoan the lack of depth,
detail, plot, characterization, and interactivity of today's typical
adventure games.

I bring it to the attention of this board in particular because I truly
believe that you'll find in the game (hell, in the DEMO) what you
haven't seen since the Infocom days...or maybe even IN the Infocom days.
Yes, it's a point-and-click graphic adventure with animation and 3-D
rendered sequences, so in those regards, this is definitely a 90's-era
game. But on the other hand...the number of hot-spots per screen is
astounding. There are locations with 50+ hot spots, and each hot spot
may have as many as 30 individual responses depending on the
circumstances. The number of possible messages in the game in response
to clicking this object on that object, or looking/taking/manipulating
things, or giving/showing things to other characters, or talking to
other characters...it's staggering. I have yet to get an exact count
>from  the Lead Programmer, but the total number of INDIVIDUAL,
SPECIALIZED responses is reliably in excess of 24,000. There were over
12,000 recorded lines of dialog alone. 

The game was designed and written by myself and developed by Legend
Entertainment (Bob Bates, late of Infocom and currently at Legend, was
the design consultant) and Spider Robinson's marvelous CALLAHAN'S
humorous sci-fi books were the basis for the game. It's due out within a
couple of months, although the exact date has yet to be set to my
knowledge. But Infocom lovers like yourselves, and like me...to a great
extent, you're the people I was trying to please. The demo should give
you a taste.

Respectfully,
Josh


From josho@crosslink.net Wed Jan 29 12:48:13 MET 1997
Article: 20559 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Josh Mandel <josho@crosslink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Callahan's Crosstime Saloon demo
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:48:21 -0500
Organization: Legend Entertainment
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Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> 
> Since the Infocom days, we've done everything Infocom did, only backwards
> and in high heels -- I mean freeware. Feel free to pick some more
> meaningful hyperbole. :)
> 
Andrew,

No, you have not done "everything Infocom did," in one crucial regard.
And that one regard is the area where I'm trying to gain ground. 

What Infocom did was make adventure games that were *bestsellers*. They
didn't just put out great adventure games. They put out great adventure
games that everybody had to own. That gave adventure games legitimate
standing in the market. That people all throughout the industry bought
immediately and paid close attention to. That people collected the
packages for, revered, analyzed (and, unfortunately, traded with their
friends).

Commercial adventure games 10 years ago were a viable market. But since
Infocom went away, freeware hasn't stayed the decline of the adventure
game as a viable mass-market product.

Adventure games should be getting MORE popular and BETTER at what they
do; our tools are better, and we have a much LARGER gaming market than
we had 10 years ago. Instead, we have innovators-turned-imitators like
Ken Williams declaring adventure games "dead" (amusingly, just a few
months earlier, Roberta was quoted in the press as saying that she's
always seen herself "as the one who decides where adventure games will
go next"; I guess she decided they should die). 

Legend, being a descendent of Infocom, had enough guts to produce
CALLAHAN'S, a distinctly Infocom-style, Infocom-quality game with 90's
mass-market sensibility. I think this is a great thing; sorry if you
don't share that. And I don't think it calls for defensiveness on the
part of freeware game designers.

I hate the fact that high-quality adventure games have been driven out
of the market. I don't understand the perverse pride some people get out
of having Infocom-style games relegated to an underground phenomenon.
The commercial success of adventure games need NOT take anything away
>from  the independent freeware authors. Freeware allows for a greater
range of subject matter, less censorship, less interference. But now
freeware adventure games are practically all there are. That's downhill
movement.

If your post was intended as a slap in the face, perhaps because I wrote
with excessive pride, or because I didn't give enough credit to freeware
game designers for their efforts, then you succeeded; I feel properly
chastised, and I apologize sincerely. I've played a lot of (and written
a few) freeware adventures, but have never seen any that merge 90's-era
graphics, sound, interface, and production values with Infocom-quality
detail and responsiveness. I see this combination as necessary if
Infocom-quality games are to regain a place of prominence in the market.
And I'd like to think that they do not have to be mutually exclusive
(Legend and I may be proven wrong about this; I pray we don't). But I
absolutely wasn't implying that freeware text adventures don't succeed
in duplicating the quality of Infocom's original efforts.
--Josh


From nulldogma@aol.com Wed Jan 29 16:33:27 MET 1997
Article: 20562 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: nulldogma@aol.com (Nulldogma)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Callahan's Crosstime Saloon demo
Date: 29 Jan 1997 13:58:39 GMT
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Josh Mandel wrote:
> If your post was intended as a slap in the face, perhaps because I wrote
> with excessive pride, or because I didn't give enough credit to freeware
> game designers for their efforts, then you succeeded; I feel properly
> chastised, and I apologize sincerely. I've played a lot of (and written
> a few) freeware adventures, but have never seen any that merge 90's-era
> graphics, sound, interface, and production values with Infocom-quality
> detail and responsiveness. I see this combination as necessary if
> Infocom-quality games are to regain a place of prominence in the market.
> And I'd like to think that they do not have to be mutually exclusive
> (Legend and I may be proven wrong about this; I pray we don't). But I
> absolutely wasn't implying that freeware text adventures don't succeed
> in duplicating the quality of Infocom's original efforts.

Well, if by "see what you haven't seen since Infocom" you meant "see what
Infocom would be doing today if it were still alive," I'll agree
wholeheartedly. 

Okay, maybe not *whole*heartedly, because (and here I share another of
Andrew's gripes) Infocom built its business on supporting a wide range of
platforms, whereas Legend has always been PC-only, yes? So while I'm happy
to hear of a graphic adventure that sounds like it may have the range and
depth of a text game, it doesn't really mean much to me or any of my
fellow millions of Mac users. (Not to mention anyone without a CD-ROM.)

I understand the reasons for this. But you should also understand why a
good chunk of this newsgroup is going to be a bit restrained in its
enthusiasm.

Neil
---------------------------------------------------------
Neil deMause                            neild@echonyc.com
                  http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/neild.html
---------------------------------------------------------


From mol@marvin.df.lth.se Wed Jan 29 22:29:32 CET 1997
Article: 20571 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!mol
From: mol@marvin.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Windhall 2 in Feb?
Date: 29 Jan 1997 21:29:15 GMT
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In article <5clqsf$evq@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net>,
C.E. Forman <ceforman@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>adcarnev@unix.amherst.edu (toon) wrote:
>>According to the Windhall Chronicles vol. 1, the sequel is due in
>>February. Is it on schedule?
>
>It's so *not* on schedule it's not even funny.
>
>You seem to have missed the "fantasy I-F sucks" thread from November-
>December of 1996, but here's a summary:
>
>     People are sick and tired of D&D/Tolkien-based fantasy I-F.
>
>As a result of (1) the negativity of this thread, (2) the nearly
>complete lack of positive feedback on "Path to Fortune", and (3) the
>fact that I've got better, non-fantasy ideas to work on, "Circle of
>Armageddon" has been put off indefinitely.  The entire game's design
>is complete, but virtually no code has been typed, nor will it be
>until fantasy I-F in general makes a comeback.

It's not only not even funny, but a bloody shame. I find it rather
depressing that a small, vociferous group of people should be able to
more-or-less impose a moratorium on an entire genre, just by being so
negative. And do they really believe that the people who write
stereotypical D&D-quest adventures today will become more creative if
they're made to change genres? What will be next - an outrage against 
"stereotypical" cyberpunk adventures? Or mysteries? 

I don't think I'm alone in saying that I have nothing whatsoever
against seeing more games in fantasy settings, as long as they're well
written and original in other aspects than setting. And, on the other
hand, I'm less interested in predictable, "I've seen this before",
follow-all-genre-conventions-to-the-letter works, *regardless* of
genre. 

Rejecting all fantasy because there are a lot of stereotypical works
in the genre is not only throwing out the baby with the bath water,
it's downright closed-minded. 

Of course, there are other reasons for not liking fantasy, and of
course I respect people's personal taste. And if you have good ideas
for other works in a more original setting, by all means go for it.


Oh, BTW, in my case the lack of feedback on "PTF" has nothing to do
with genre; what's made me postpone playing it is the sense of sheer
size and open-endedness - after running around in circles for a while,
wthout really knowing what to do, I decided to save it until I had a
lot of time on my hands. I do intend to play it when that happens.
Which - as things look right now - means sometime in the hazy future.
I'm sorry. 

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)


From mamster@u.washington.edu Thu Jan 30 09:07:39 MET 1997
Article: 20577 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: mamster@u.washington.edu (Matthew Amster-Burton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Windhall 2 in Feb?
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:23:14 GMT
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"C.E. Forman" <ceforman@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>You seem to have missed the "fantasy I-F sucks" thread from November-
>December of 1996

Luckily, it's back!

>     People are sick and tired of D&D/Tolkien-based fantasy I-F.
>
>As a result of (1) the negativity of this thread, (2) the nearly
>complete lack of positive feedback on "Path to Fortune", and (3) the
>fact that I've got better, non-fantasy ideas to work on, "Circle of
>Armageddon" has been put off indefinitely.  The entire game's design
>is complete, but virtually no code has been typed, nor will it be
>until fantasy I-F in general makes a comeback.

This is disappointing.  I think I and a lot of other folks here need
to be more forthcoming with our praise.  I played PTF and enjoyed it
very much (I played mostly with the walkthrough, but I often do that
on large games).  As I recall, the most commonly voiced opinion on
that thread was:  in general, I am sick of fantasy IF, but if a
fantasy game comes along that's funny, original, or otherwise stands
out from the pack, I'll certainly play it.  At least, that's my
opinion.

Matthew


From jdyer@mustique.u.arizona.edu Thu Jan 30 09:07:59 MET 1997
Article: 20579 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jdyer@mustique.u.arizona.edu (Jason B Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Windhall 2 in Feb?
Date: 30 Jan 1997 03:24:45 GMT
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Andrew Plotkin (erkyrath@netcom.com) wrote:
: I'm not sure there really is that much of a backlash against fantasy IF
: per se. Admittedly, there haven't been many long fantasy works since PtF. 
: (Any?) But a bunch of short fantasy works in the competition, one of
: which, y'know, won. 

I do seem to remember _SpiritWrak_ coming after _Path to Fortune_.
Also, just this month _Magic Realms - The Sword of Kasza_ was
silently slipped into the IF archive.  Also, _The Curse of Eldor_
turned out to be a pretty long game (if you avoided the walkthrough).

Now that I'm talking about it, I should mention that something I
felt in Eldor that I hadn't felt in a long time was a sense of expanse.
These days IF minimalism has gotten to the point where all the rooms are
compacted into a neatly unrealistic unit.

You can dislike Delusions all you want. I disliked _So Far_,
after all, and our budding fantasy writer here absolutely detested
Phlegm.

Jason Dyer
jdyer@u.arizona.edu


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Jan 30 10:27:40 MET 1997
Article: 20582 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Callahan's Crosstime Saloon demo
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Josh Mandel (josho@crosslink.net) wrote:

> I bring it to the attention of this board in particular because I truly
> believe that you'll find in the game (hell, in the DEMO) what you 
> haven't seen since the Infocom days...or maybe even IN the Infocom days. 

> Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> > 
> > Since the Infocom days, we've done everything Infocom did, only backwards
> > and in high heels -- I mean freeware. Feel free to pick some more
> > meaningful hyperbole. :)
> > 

> No, you have not done "everything Infocom did," in one crucial regard.
> And that one regard is the area where I'm trying to gain ground. 

> What Infocom did was make adventure games that were *bestsellers*. They
> didn't just put out great adventure games. They put out great adventure
> games that everybody had to own.

You've badly slipped your context. Your original paragraph, the one I was 
responding too, went on to talk about how interaction-rich Callahan's is. 
I took it in that light. Well, we have text games which have more text 
adn more detailed responses than any Infocom game. There is at least an 
argument, though not a consensus, that we've created stories as good, 
prose as well-written, worlds as engaging, characters as well-defined.

None of this has anything to do with popularity in the mass market, and
I did not understand from your post that that was what you were talking 
about.

If you're claiming marketability was the thing you were talking about, 
then yes, recent text adventures haven't done that -- nothing on GMD.DE 
has been a market-creating, bestselling hit. But then Callahan's hasn't 
either. You're now at the phase where you find out if it *will* be.

(And, to be picky, we *have* seen that phenomenon since Infocom -- it was 
Myst. Like the game or hate it, Myst invented a market and I believe it 
*still* hasn't lost popularity in that market.)

> Adventure games should be getting MORE popular and BETTER at what they
> do; our tools are better, and we have a much LARGER gaming market than
> we had 10 years ago.

More money is being pumped into Hollywood than ever before. This does not 
create in me any expectation that movies will be better. Actually, it 
makes me expect that they will be worse. 

(Although I'm going to see the 4-hour cut of Hamlet this weekend. I don't 
mean to imply that *every* movie these days must be bad, or even that 
there are fewer good movies this year than there were ten years ago. But 
the expansion of a market does not mean the expansion of the *good* part 
of the market. Similar comments for adventure games.)

> Legend, being a descendent of Infocom, had enough guts to produce
> CALLAHAN'S, a distinctly Infocom-style, Infocom-quality game with 90's
> mass-market sensibility. I think this is a great thing; sorry if you
> don't share that.

I don't share it because I don't *believe* it yet. I realize what you 
*trying* to do, but you have no call to presume you've accomplished it 
yet. 

Presumption is the heart of advertising. I hate advertising. I didn't take
your post as advertising. I took it as a sincere statement from someone
who has a work he believes in, to newsgroup-readers who are interested.
(Which we are.) It being that, I'm disagreeing with it, as I'd reply to
anyone who said something I disagreed with in an on-topic newsgroup
discussion. 

> And I don't think it calls for defensiveness on the
> part of freeware game designers.

Strangely, that wasn't it at all. Mmm, I want to respond in a different 
order than you've written, so see my last paragraph below.

> I hate the fact that high-quality adventure games have been driven out
> of the market. I don't understand the perverse pride some people get out
> of having Infocom-style games relegated to an underground phenomenon.

I'm afraid of big money. I know I can compete, get my work seen and 
appreciated, in an underground movement. I am very uncertain how I 
would do in the mass market. That's all. (But this has nothing to do with 
my reply to your post.)

> The commercial success of adventure games need NOT take anything away
> from the independent freeware authors.

Agreed.

> Freeware allows for a greater
> range of subject matter, less censorship, less interference. But now
> freeware adventure games are practically all there are. That's downhill
> movement.

Frankly, I disagree. I tend to see the current computer game market as 
having *nothing* to do with the adventure game market of the 80's. It's 
not that the game market expanded hugely and quality adventure games were 
left behind; instead, this entirely *new* market appeared, and adventure 
games never got started in it. (But this, too, has nothing to do with my 
reply. I'm just taking your post one paragraph at a time here.)

> If your post was intended as a slap in the face, perhaps because I wrote
> with excessive pride, or because I didn't give enough credit to freeware
> game designers for their efforts, then you succeeded; I feel properly
> chastised, and I apologize sincerely.

Apology accepted. I did mean to whap you one, verbally, but it was *you*
and about that one statement, not Legend or about Callahan's. (If I
thought you had been pushing an official Legend statement, your message
would have been an advertisement, and therefore a lie from beginning to
end, and therefore unworthy of discussion. I don't think that.)

> I've played a lot of (and written
> a few) freeware adventures, but have never seen any that merge 90's-era
> graphics, sound, interface, and production values with Infocom-quality
> detail and responsiveness. I see this combination as necessary if
> Infocom-quality games are to regain a place of prominence in the market.
> And I'd like to think that they do not have to be mutually exclusive
> (Legend and I may be proven wrong about this; I pray we don't). But I
> absolutely wasn't implying that freeware text adventures don't succeed
> in duplicating the quality of Infocom's original efforts.

I think my big realization for this post is, "Uh, are you talking about
market prominence or quality? You keep flipping back and forth as if they
had something to do with each other!" Because I simply assume these days
that quality is totally orthogonal to the success of any commercial
product. Games, movies, books, operating systems, restaurants. And that's
when I'm in an optimistic mood. (Are you still surprised that I prefer
text adventures as an underground movement?)

(I'm not a big commercial success. I know a lot of brilliant talented
people, all of whom have been making quality things all their lives, and
none of them are big commercial successes. The closest I can think of is
Eric -- have you played Eric's Ultimate Solitaire on the Mac? That's doing
pretty well. But then, the Mac is something of an underground movement
itself at this point.)

When you were originally talking about "something that hasn't been seen
since Infocom", I assumed you were talking about game quality. This is
really kind of a level playing field; you people at Legend are not more or
less likely to design a quality game than I am. (Graphics, sound, and
interface don't come into the equation. Bad graphics can decrease the
quality of a game, but great graphics can't increase it. And there are so
many games out there with great art and a pathetic storyline; art really
is the easy part. I have faith that you haven't screwed up the
graphics/sound/interface in Callahan's.)

(Obviously it's no surprise that the TADS and Inform games out there lack 
graphics and sound. (I've spent a lot of time on interface, but that's a 
different story.) Not putting any in is the easiest way to not screw them 
up. The people using TADS and Inform are the people who have chosen to 
take that route.)

So, game design against game design, I know I've done pretty well; that's 
all I was saying. Which you're not disagreeing with. I hope you've done 
pretty well too. Honest.

In terms of being a success... well, "orthogonal" means that sometimes 
the good stuff *is* a hit. Good luck.

--Z



-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From dseybert@popd.ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 30 14:52:55 MET 1997
Article: 20587 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: dseybert@popd.ix.netcom.com (Dave Seybert)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Windhall 2 in Feb?
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:23:51 -0700
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I've been following this thread with some interest, as I was curious to
see what the overall reaction would be to C.E's cancelling his game
because he felt that fantasy IF was in disfavor.  Reading through his
posts, I feel that this feeling of "I won't work on it because no one will
like it" sets a bad precedent for writers in general.

The truth is, there is always a market for a good story, well told. The
fantasy genre has been holding on pretty well since Homer stated spinning
his tales over the occasional three day epic poem competitions and a quick
perusal of the fantasy sections of your average book superstore shows no
signs that it's going away anytime soon.

It's never been enough to say "I'll write a story in the fantasy genre and
everyone will love it." You have to do sometyhing with it, expand
established themes, give us characters to care about, develop a new and
interesting way of making it all seem fresh.Have the courage to add your
voice to it and see what it sounds like (God, I sound like my old creative
writing teacher!).

A perfect example of this is Wes Craven's new movie "Scream" in the
supposedly "dead" genre of teen/horror/slasher movies. No one expected it
to make very much but Craven found a way of making it all seem fresh again
and now Hollywood is getting ready to flog the maket to death with
slashers movies again (what goes around...)

Personally, I enjoyed Windhaven and looked forward to the sequel. If C. E.
wants to explore other avenues of IF ("Delusions" was pretty good), then
more power to him. If he doesn't want to put the sequel out because he's
afraid no one will like it, then I'm sorry for him. 

In a nutshell:

Rule #1 Nothing is a sure thing. 

Rule #2 A sure thing is only a sure thing in retrospect. Hindsight is
always 20-20.

Regards to all,

Dave Seybert


From nulldogma@aol.com Thu Jan 30 16:18:10 MET 1997
Article: 20589 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: nulldogma@aol.com (Nulldogma)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Windhall 2 in Feb?
Date: 30 Jan 1997 13:49:05 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
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As one of the people who contributed (somewhat) to the "I'm sick of
fantasy" thread last year, let me at least make clear that *I* am only
sick of bad, formulaic fantasy. After all, I loved Sherbet, as it was
beautifully written and the opening sequence put a nice twist on the
genre. The same goes for Aayela, for that matter.

I liked Path to Fortune okay, but most of my dissatisfaction with it was
that it relied on too many typical fantasy elements that I'm sick and
tired of. (Key word: I'm.) If C.E. were to write a sequel that pushed the
boundaries of the genre a bit more, I'd be more likely to play it.

But, again, this is only me. And I'd still rather see C.E. write a fantasy
game for which he has really inspired ideas than a lackluster non-fantasy
game just to meet the perceived demands of the market. You've got to write
what moves you.

Neil
---------------------------------------------------------
Neil deMause                            neild@echonyc.com
                  http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/neild.html
---------------------------------------------------------


From robrachel@aol.com Thu Jan 30 16:57:55 MET 1997
Article: 20590 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: robrachel@aol.com (RobRachel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Windhall 2 in Feb?
Date: 30 Jan 1997 15:17:45 GMT
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Just following the thread here and want to add my thoughts...

I reviewed PtF for XYZZY News (the latest issue, I think) and, although I
can't remember my exact words, I do remember liking it overall. Sure,
there were some stereotypical elements, but I feel CEF (and the co-author
whose name eludes me right now) did start to push the boundaries of those
stereotypes a little. One thing that I found interesting about PtF is that
it was, for lack of a better term, "pure fantasy" more representative of
fantasy found in other media. Most IF fantasy (starting with zork going
through Sherbet) seems to have more of an "Alice In Wonderland" feel to
them than fantasy. You'll have a mailbox, an inflatable raft, swords,
trolls, lanterns, coal mines all jammed together. This isn't a bad thing,
but it is not, IMHO, straight fantasy.

I've always been a fan of the fantasy genre (books, rpg, even movies) and
am always on the prowl for well-done stories that do add something fresh
and new to the mix. Zork and the IF version of fantasy did this for a
while, but now that version is the standard and, in that light, is
becoming stale itself. There *are* plenty of bad fantasy tales out there,
but no more than bad Sci Fi, horror, romance, legal thriller, etc.

I was personally looking forward to the sequel and hope that CEF
reconsiders.


Rob Daviau

Lopez is a lazy man.


From nulldogma@aol.com Sun Feb  2 00:32:02 MET 1997
Article: 20648 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: nulldogma@aol.com (Nulldogma)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Windhall and fantasy IF
Date: 1 Feb 1997 14:58:44 GMT
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(I tried to post this to the proper thread -- really I did -- but AOL ate
my first several attempts, and now it's vanished into some Usenet
netherworld...)

(Anyway:)

C.E. Forman (ceforman@postoffice.worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: nulldogma@aol.com (Nulldogma) wrote:
: >I liked Path to Fortune okay, but most of my dissatisfaction with it
was
: >that it relied on too many typical fantasy elements that I'm sick and
: >tired of. (Key word: I'm.) If C.E. were to write a sequel that pushed 
: >the boundaries of the genre a bit more, I'd be more likely to play it.

: You didn't mention exactly which elements you are tired of.  If you're
: referring to the characters (elves, dwarves, wizards, etc.) then you'd
: no doubt dislike the rest of the Windhall Chronicles, as these races
: are part of the established setting.  This cannot change.

I pretty much agree with what Lucian Smith said -- the elves, etc., were
fairly stereotypical (or "traditional", if you prefer). If your elves had
been, say, griping about the recent influx of trolls from the Western
Provinces who were willing to work long hours at cheap wages and driving
elves to peddling Genuine Elf Wares at roadside stands to make a living --
well, that would've made me sit up and take notice.

But then, as I've said before, I'm not crazy about fantasy in general. I
love Ursula LeGuin to bits, and am rapidly reading all her SF and plain
fiction works, but I'm giving her fantasy a large berth. There's just
something about castles and dragons that gives me flashbacks to being 12
years old and reading too much Anne McCaffrey.

Which is why I've been stressing that you shouldn't be making your game
decisions on *my* tastes. Write what you want, and if it's done well,
people will like it. I promise. Really.

Neil

---------------------------------------------------------
Neil deMause                            neild@echonyc.com
                  http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/neild.html
---------------------------------------------------------


From joe.mason@tabb.com Mon Feb  3 10:29:02 MET 1997
Article: 20690 of rec.games.int-fiction
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Distribution: world
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Windhall 2 in Feb?
From: joe.mason@tabb.com (Joe Mason)
Message-ID: <66.6952.1782@tabb.com>
References: <19970130134900.IAA08974@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 16:32:00 -0500
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"Re: Windhall 2 in Feb?", declared Nulldogma  from the Vogon ship:

N>As one of the people who contributed (somewhat) to the "I'm sick of
N>fantasy" thread last year, let me at least make clear that *I* am only
N>sick of bad, formulaic fantasy. After all, I loved Sherbet, as it was
N>beautifully written and the opening sequence put a nice twist on the
N>genre. The same goes for Aayela, for that matter.

Hear hear!

N>But, again, this is only me. And I'd still rather see C.E. write a
N>game fantasy for which he has really inspired ideas than a lackluster
N>game non-fantasy just to meet the perceived demands of the market.
N>You've got to write what moves you.

Again, hear hear!

Joe

 CMPQwk 1.42 9550 Lando, Lando, he's our man! If he can't do it we'll get Han!


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Feb  4 10:34:12 MET 1997
Article: 20714 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Xyzzy Awards nominees
Message-ID: <erkyrathE52H5t.AsA@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
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XYZZYnews (xyzzynews@aol.com) wrote:
> Without further ado, the nominees (in alphabetical order) are...

...listed below, for reference. I found some things notable.

(First, let me say that although I'm hosting the award ceremony, I'm not 
involved in the awards in any other way. I have no inside information 
about votes or results.)

Of the first five categories (game, writing, story, setting, puzzles), _So 
Far_ and _Lost New York_ show up in all. The other games tend to show up 
repeatedly as well; only "Frobozz Magic Support", "Aayela", "A Night at 
the Computer Center", "Small World" appear in only a single category of 
those five. (All of those are shorter works, which isn't too surprising 
-- short games often focus on a single aspect, and people are willing to 
forgive lacks in other areas for the sake of that one. On the other hand, 
"often" is not "always". "Tapestry" and "Sherbet", both competition 
entries, show up repeatedly.) Er, oops -- "Delusions" is also only in 
there once. I also thought it wasn't a shorter work. I also didn't 
forgive it for much, but I've already ranted on that subject. :-)

The categories I *didn't* consider in that analysis are best NPCs, best 
individual NPC, and best individual puzzle. 

The "individual" categories don't compare well to anything else, since a
game can easily have one individual NPC/puzzle that is much better than
the rest of the game. 

Look at best NPCs, though. _LNY_ is there, but the only other game that 
is mentioned anywhere else is "Small World", and that only in one other 
place. I find this interesting. Is it that we're still bad at writing 
NPCs in general? (So that the best NPCs are just acceptable, whereas bad 
ones stand out and drag the game down?) Or that games which don't try to 
have NPCs are forgiven, because we don't expect good NPCs even in an 
otherwise good game?

(Note that I'm implicitly assuming that the categories are not 
independent -- that flaws in aspect X *do* reduce a game's chance of 
being recognized for aspect Y. Partially this is because of 
the commonalities I noted in my first paragraph. And partially I just 
think it's true; I tend to judge games overall first, and then pick out 
the aspects I particularly liked or disliked.)

Another observation: *all* the best individual NPCs are comic characters. 
They all have exaggerated personalities, and while several are important 
in *puzzles*, only one (Evan) is involved in the *story* of the game at 
all. Storywise, the rest are pure comic relief. You're supposed to laugh 
at them.

All of them are obnoxious (or, at least, they make a lot of snappy 
comments; they don't just speak when spoken too.) 

Much of this is true of the NPC is the games nominated for best NPCs, as 
well. Only _LNY_ is not comedy. (Well, "Wedding" isn't specifically 
comedy, but all the characters are exaggerated and to some extent absurd.)

What conclusion do I draw from all of this? I dunno. Certainly there 
should be more NPC-driven games, simply because it's hard. (Anything I 
can't do, impresses me. :-) But there are memorable characters out there 
already. I think the cartoony ones are drawing an unfair share of 
attention. 

That's all.

> BEST GAME: 
> 	The Light: Shelby's Addendum, by Colm McCarthy
> 	Lost New York, by Neil deMause
> 	The Meteor, the Stone and a Long Glass of Sherbet, 
> 		by Graham Nelson
> 	So Far, by Andrew Plotkin
> 	Time: All Things Come To An End, by Andy Phillips

> BEST WRITING:
> 	Aayela, by Magnus Olsson
> 	Lost New York, by Neil deMause
> 	The Meteor, the Stone and a Long Glass of Sherbet, 
> 		by Graham Nelson
> 	So Far, by Andrew Plotkin
> 	Tapestry, by Daniel Ravipinto

> BEST STORY:
> 	Delusions, by C.E. Forman
> 	Lost New York, by Neil deMause
> 	So Far, by Andrew Plotkin
> 	Tapestry, by Daniel Ravipinto
> 	Time: All Things Come To An End, by Andy Phillips
> 	
> BEST SETTING:
> 	The Light: Shelby's Addendum, by Colm McCarthy
> 	Lost New York, by Neil deMause
> 	A Night at the Computer Center, by Bonni Mierzejewska
> 	Small World, by Andrew Pontious
> 	So Far, by Andrew Plotkin
> 		
> BEST PUZZLES:
> 	Frobozz Magic Support, by Nate Cull
> 	Lost New York, by Neil deMause
> 	The Meteor, the Stone and a Long Glass of Sherbet, 
> 		by Graham Nelson
> 	So Far, by Andrew Plotkin
> 	Time: All Things Come To An End, by Andy Phillips

> BEST NPCS:
> 	Kissing the Buddha's Feet, by Leon Lin
> 	Lost New York, by Neil deMause
> 	Small World, by Andrew Pontious
> 	The Underoos That Ate New York, by Gerry Kevin Wilson 
> 	The Wedding, by Neil J Brown

> BEST INDIVIDUAL PUZZLE:
> 	Cramped, crawling, from So Far
> 	The crystals, from Fear
> 	The elephant, from The Meteor, the Stone 
> 		and a Long Glass of Sherbet
> 	Opening the gate, from So Far
> 	Riding the creature, from So Far

> BEST INDIVIDUAL NPC:
> 	The Burin, from Frobozz Magic Support
> 	Christopher Robin, from Ralph
> 	The Devil, from Small World
> 	Evan, from Kissing the Buddha's Feet
> 	Leo the Lemming, from Phlegm

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From neil@highmount.demon.co.uk Tue Feb  4 11:36:24 MET 1997
Article: 20719 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Neil Brown <neil@highmount.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Xyzzy Awards nominees
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:36:59 +0000
Organization: N/A
Distribution: world
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 <erkyrathE52H5t.AsA@netcom.com>
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In article <erkyrathE52H5t.AsA@netcom.com>, Andrew Plotkin
<erkyrath@netcom.com> writes
>Look at best NPCs, though. _LNY_ is there, but the only other game that 
>is mentioned anywhere else is "Small World", and that only in one other 
>place. I find this interesting. Is it that we're still bad at writing 
>NPCs in general? (So that the best NPCs are just acceptable, whereas bad 
>ones stand out and drag the game down?) Or that games which don't try to 
>have NPCs are forgiven, because we don't expect good NPCs even in an 
>otherwise good game?
>
>(Note that I'm implicitly assuming that the categories are not 
>independent -- that flaws in aspect X *do* reduce a game's chance of 
>being recognized for aspect Y. Partially this is because of 
>the commonalities I noted in my first paragraph. And partially I just 
>think it's true; I tend to judge games overall first, and then pick out 
>the aspects I particularly liked or disliked.)
>
>Another observation: *all* the best individual NPCs are comic characters. 
>They all have exaggerated personalities, and while several are important 
>in *puzzles*, only one (Evan) is involved in the *story* of the game at 
>all. Storywise, the rest are pure comic relief. You're supposed to laugh 
>at them.
>
>All of them are obnoxious (or, at least, they make a lot of snappy 
>comments; they don't just speak when spoken too.) 
>
>Much of this is true of the NPC is the games nominated for best NPCs, as 
>well. Only _LNY_ is not comedy. (Well, "Wedding" isn't specifically 
>comedy, but all the characters are exaggerated and to some extent absurd.)

The characters in Wedding are a bunch of stereotypes who don't really do
much. I suspect it's more to do with the fact that they _are_
stereotypes that they've been (apparently) well received. The ferocious
woman is amusing; the jolly uncle is lovable; the dog is cute. All with
very little effort on my behalf to make them come to life.

I can't comment on the other nominations, however, as I haven't played
them. (TADS games being too awkward to get going on my small machine. I
assume that they're all TADS.) Is there any particular reason why TADS
games (or at least, non-Inform games) are dominating this category?
__________

Neil James Brown


From adam@tucson.princeton.edu Tue Feb  4 11:37:00 MET 1997
Article: 20707 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: adam@tucson.princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Callahan's demo in CGW Feb. Issue
Date: 4 Feb 1997 00:07:57 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tucson.princeton.edu

Callahan's.  Yep, that's it, all right.

I'm very impressed with the bar.  The designers of the game have spent
enough time in the place to know that it's lit about as brightly as your
living room, because people who like to drink in caves are unstable, f'r
instance.  

Whoever does Jake's voice got it very much right.  And though Jake
Stonebender should be a little skinnier, he looks pretty much like Jake.  I
always thought of Josie as a little more zaftig, though.

The one half-scenario you get on the disk is good.  Pretty easy, though,
and a fair amount of "click-the-pixel".  However, since the pixel always
has a caption this isn't too bad.

What I'm mainly impressed by is that the point-and-drool interface isn't
too bad, and, well, the game really *is* about Callahan's and its
inhabitants and not some dumbass marketeer's interpretations based what her
idiot boyfriend told her after reading only the back cover of the books.
I'm touched and pleased to find, for example, Jake making numerous Firesign
Theatre references.  Somebody not only knows the books but understands
Spider's sources.

I'd buy the game just for the soundtrack, of course, since it has Spider
Robinson & co. singing, among other songs, "Telegrapher's Daughter."  But
it looks like it's actually going to be an enjoyable--if easy--game that,
mirabile dictu, does Callahan's proud.

Two thumbs up.

Adam
-- 
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | adam@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928


From werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at Wed Feb  5 09:57:11 MET 1997
Article: 20727 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!03-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!alijku02!news
From: werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at (Werner Punz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Gateway II a review<Spoilers>
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 22:24:06 GMT
Organization: Johannes Kepler University Linz
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99g/32.339

I'm currently playing Gateway II. For all of those unlucky souls who
haven't got their Lost Adventures yet but have played and loved the
first part here is a short review of the second part.

Difficulty level:
The first half is extremely easy but the second part is much harder.
There are several puzzles which are as hard as the infinite situation
puzzles in Gateway 1. Overall the game is as hard as Gateway 1. There
are no illogical puzzles in the game. And every puzzle has some hint
somewhere else in the game. Although several puzzles are myst-ZN like
with some strange machinery to operate. (Not really my favorite kind
of puzzles.)Who said Myst was the first game with graphical machinery
puzzles?

The interface. The same as Gateway 1, the old Legend interface which
can be switched from an Infocom like text only interface to something
with pictures and a word list, just as you prefer it.

Length of the game. IMHO twice as big as Gateway 1. It takes about
20-40 hours to finish it. But the number of rooms you can reach is
always limited to a maximum of about 10-15 at a time. The overall
number of rooms is huge but you won't recognize it. The game itself is
quite linear although you never have the feeling that it's to linear
and you can't do anything except one special thing.



BTW. The game is MS Dos protected mode only but uses the same engine
as GW1 therefore it should run under SoftWindows too. It runs
perfectly under Windoze 95 in a dos box.


The time factor. Almost all of the older Legend games have the time
factor. I.e. a small clock which shows the time of the day. Until
including Gateway 1 several actions were limited to several times of
the day. Either you like it or you hate it. But Gateway II still has
the clock but the actions aren't limited to a special time anymore.
Therefore you are only time dependent in situations where you have to
solve something within for example an hour. But there aren't any
situations anymore (except one) where you have to be somewhere at a
special time to get something. (There is only one situation but you
are warned before, not like GW1).

Overall rating:Excellen Scifi game. Until I played GW2, GW1 together
with AMFV was my favorite Scifi game but now this one is No1 together
with AMFV

The story: One strong point of almost every Legend Game. Equally good
or even a little bit better than GW1, one word, it's simply excellent.



spoilers ahead Don't read further unless you really want to know the
story.
.
.
.
.
.
Spoiler.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
Don't read further unless you really want to spoil yourself!!!!!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Don't tell me I haven't warned you
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

The whole story starts several months - years after part 1 has ended.
You are now a retired and rich Gateway prospector when a strange huge
ship arrives in the solar system. You are hired as an advisor for a
diplomat who should be sent to the ship. But shortly before the
diplomat ship is sent to the artifact a religious terrorist group who
wants to bring purification upon humanity by bringing the Assassins to
earth, takes over the launching site and tries to stop the ship. They
kill everybody so it's up to you to complete the mission. After your
arrival at the strange foreign artifact you suddenly are held as
prisoner there by a hostile computer and you discover that it's some
kind of Heechee probe which gathers biological material. You have to
fight against the hostile computer and disable to and bring the ship
back to earth. After the arrival on earth the terrorists take over the
ship and go on a course intercepting the homeworld of the assassins.
After an unsuccessful attempt of trying to stop the terrorists and
several other adventures you are stuck on the Hechee homeworld where
several things regarding the political system aren't as they should
be. You somehow have to find a way get away from the Heechee system
and stop the terrorists before they can reach the assassins.

That's as far as I am right now and I still have one third of the game
left.




-
Werner

mailto://werpu@inflab.uni-linz.ac.at
http://witiko.ifs.uni-linz.ac.at/~werpu/
----------------------------------------------
Check out ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/ for something 
which has been forgotten years ago.


From pachu@redestb.es Wed Feb  5 10:58:36 MET 1997
Article: 20738 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Francisco Lopez <pachu@redestb.es>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Help with "Time: All things come..."
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 09:47:09 +0100
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In the second chapter (the desert, year 1924) I always die of the
burning sun. I have seen the solution at ftp.gmd.de, but nothing about
that is said on it. What can I do to go to the tents (get the book and
diary) and the return to the cave safely?. Sorry by my bad Engligh and
thank you.


From svanegmo@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca Wed Feb  5 11:02:47 MET 1997
Article: 20737 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: svanegmo@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Stephen van Egmond)
Subject: Re: Xyzzy Awards nominees
Sender: news@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (news spool owner)
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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 03:47:24 GMT
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In article <19970203152000.KAA01324@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
XYZZYnews <xyzzynews@aol.com> wrote:
>	The Meteor, the Stone and a Long Glass of Sherbet, 
>		by Graham Nelson

What is this!  Crediting Graham Nelson for someone else's work!

[stomping around, waving hands]

Why is it that when, FINALLY, we have some excellent releases coming from
women -- Angla M. Horns, the inimitable bonni m., and so on -- the 
rec.*.int-fiction cabal takes it upon themselves to erase that fact from 
existence!

First he communicates on her behalf, and then he wrote the game. 
Suuuuuuuuuuure.   How convenient that it's not peat season: Angela 
doesn't have electricity to correct this matter.

Well, I stand in defiance of this sham!

Watch out, bonni!  You're next!  Soon, everyone will be saying that Gerry
Wilson wrote Night at the Computer Centre.

It's a cabal, I tell you!

        ,,,
       (. .)
+--oOO--(_)--OOo-----+
| Stephen Van Egmond +- svanegmo@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca +--- -   -   -
| Bring your brain.



From mas.supplies@easynet.co.uk Wed Feb  5 19:14:37 MET 1997
Article: 20750 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: mas.supplies@easynet.co.uk (Bill Hoggett)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Legend's "Lost Adventures" (was: Eric the Unready: Great Game.)
Date: 05 Feb 97 12:40:11 +0500
Organization: [posted via] Easynet Group PLC
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On 05-Feb-97 Glen Dahlren wrote:

>To those concerned,

>I just wanted to poke in here and mention that Legend isn't going
>anywhere (at least, we're not going away).

--- Snip snip ---

>I'm not going to go into a lot of detail about Legend's status, but we
>continue to be dedicated to producing top-quality entertainment
>software.  Personally, I'm currently working on a multi-million dollar
>game based on the Wheel of Time series of books by Robert Jordan. I am
>very excited about our current prospects, and moreso about the
>Legend's future.

--- Snip snip ---

I guess the game has a better chance of being a good one because it's
developed by Legend rather than because it is backed by a multi-million
budget. In fact the latter worries me: will the game be developed to
Legend's standards, or will it be controlled by the publisher's
requirements, with quality possibly being sacrificed in favour of maximising
profits.

That last statement in quoted paragraph worries me even more. As an
Amiga-phile I have had it up to the neck with people stating that they
are very excited about the machine's future, shortly before their interest
and commitment to it dissapeared altogether. I'm talking about ESCOM and
VISCorp CEOs here, not simply users who have gone over to Pc's. It all
sounds a bit like a soccer manager getting the dreaded "vote of confidence"
>from  his board - although I guess that last reference won't make much
sense to those outside the UK.  :)

Hope I'm wrong though...


---
Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay)   <mas.supplies@easynet.co.uk>

IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ?



From nulldogma@aol.com Thu Feb  6 09:03:54 MET 1997
Article: 20764 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: nulldogma@aol.com (Nulldogma)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Xyzzy Awards nominees
Date: 5 Feb 1997 19:11:21 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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Stephen Van Egmond wrote:
> In article <19970203152000.KAA01324@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> XYZZYnews <xyzzynews@aol.com> wrote:
> >	The Meteor, the Stone and a Long Glass of Sherbet, 
> >		by Graham Nelson
>
> What is this!  Crediting Graham Nelson for someone else's work!

Ha, ha. Very funny.

"Graham Nelson," as I imagine any frequent reader of r.g.i-f knows, is
merely an anagrammed pseudonym for the illustrious Ms. Horns, and bears no
relation to that other fellow who wrote Inform and Curses and Jigsaw and
numerous other things that are six letters long.

But I suppose the only way we're really going to clear this up is if
Sherbet wins a Xyzzy, and then we can see who exactly comes to the podium
to accept it...

Neil
---------------------------------------------------------
Neil deMause                            neild@echonyc.com
                  http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/neild.html
---------------------------------------------------------


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Thu Feb  6 09:03:56 MET 1997
Article: 20766 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Xyzzy Awards nominees
Date: 5 Feb 1997 17:00:38 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Lines: 31
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In article <E542J1.o5x@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
Stephen van Egmond <svanegmo@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>
>What is this!  Crediting Graham Nelson for someone else's work!

Uh oh, Graham.  Looks like someone's on to us.  We'd better 'silence' his
e-mail account.  Heh.  Heh.  Heh.

[snip]
>
>Well, I stand in defiance of this sham!
>
>Watch out, bonni!  You're next!  Soon, everyone will be saying that Gerry
>Wilson wrote Night at the Computer Centre.
>
>It's a cabal, I tell you!

Sorry Stephen, but you know too much.  *BANG*

>        ,,,
>       (x x)
>+--oOO--(_)--OOo-----+
>| Stephen Van Egmond +- svanegmo@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca +--- -   -   -
>| Nothing to see here, move along folks.
>

Whoa.  Almost posted this to the newsgroup.  Good thing I didn't, or the
cabal would have my membership card for sure.
-- 
	My new email address is: whizzard@pobox.com.
	If that's too long for you, try gkw@pobox.com.


From neild@echonyc.com Thu Feb  6 10:26:56 MET 1997
Article: 20776 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: neild@echonyc.com (Neil deMause)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Legend's "Lost Adventures" (was: Eric the Unready: Great Game.)The whole thing reminds me on
Date: 6 Feb 1997 06:31:21 GMT
Organization: EchoNYC
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GraemeCree (graemecree@aol.com) wrote:
: >The whole thing reminds me on what happened
: > with Infocom when they lost their independence.

:      Oh, but Infocom produced some of their best stuff after the
: Activision sale:  Stationfall, Beyond Zork, Trinity, Leather Goddesses of
: Phobos, et al.  I still think Infocom's demise was due more to the
: invention of the VGA card than Activision.

After the Activision sale, but before the Activision-induced wholesale
layoff of the staff.[1] So far as I know, Infocom's later sales 
weren't flagging, and in any case they were drifting into using some 
graphics. VGA cards notwithstanding, Cornerstone and Activision killed 
Infocom.

Neil

[1] This here is the bad old Infocom-gobbling Activision that I mean, 
of course, not today's happy friendly Activision that gives us free stuff
and puts new I-F on its Masterpieces collection.                      
      



From graemecree@aol.com Thu Feb  6 11:05:38 MET 1997
Article: 20772 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: graemecree@aol.com (GraemeCree)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Leather Godesses of Phobos 2
Date: 5 Feb 1997 19:43:19 GMT
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     The real problem with LGOP2 is not that it's especially bad per se,
but it was such a half-hearted effort.  It's easily Steve Meretzky's worse
game (even including Lane Mastodon vs. the Blubbermen), and it's obvious
that very little work went into it.
     The final result is only a slightly-worse-than-the-average-fare
effort, but we all know that Meretzky is capable of much more, and since
they went to the trouble of touting his name on the box, one would think
that he tried to bring his full talents to bear, rather than just kicking
something out the door in his spare time.


From franklir@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu Thu Feb  6 21:52:51 MET 1997
Article: 20801 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: franklir@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Ryan J Franklin)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I'm new to interactive fiction I need advice!
Date: 6 Feb 1997 19:15:11 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Unix Users Group
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <5ddajv$1eug@news.ccit.arizona.edu>
References: <5dagkd$8uk$1@nnrp1.toronto.ican.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.970206082850.12238A-100000@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA> <5dcs9m$79j@kodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM>
NNTP-Posting-Host: helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu

In article <5dcs9m$79j@kodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM>,
Matthew Daly <daly@PPD.Kodak.COM> wrote:
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970206082850.12238A-100000@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA> Paul Shrimpton <shrimppd@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA> writes:
>>PLANETFALL
>>STATIONFALL
>
>I don't know of any evidence that these games look place in the
>"Zork universe".  
[snip!]
>>There's also the futuristic STARCROSS, but in this game you're from 
>
>... and the only evidence that this game took place in the Zork universe
>is the presence of Grues as the "don't walk around in the dark" kludge.

...which is the same evidence for Planetfall and Stationfall.  Both of 
'em have grues, and both of them (and Suspended, I think) are supposedly 
the same setting as Starcross.

Not that it matters, of course.  The only games which were genuinely 
linked by setting or chronology were the Zorks and Enchanters.  The 
-falls are linked to each other.  Other games might or might not show 
signs of belonging to the same setting (grues and whatnot), but that's a 
bit weak, really, and attributing it to some Master Universal Setting is 
a bit silly when it's obviously just rampant Infocom in-joking.  (You 
could make a case for Infidel and Cutthroats being in the same setting, 
what with the location box and the stuff in the documentation, but then I 
think you'd be needlessly complicating and obscuring the joke.)

>I never liked Witness.  Deadline and Suspect could be played in either
>order.  They're both tough, but I don't think that one is any harder
>than the other.

Yow.  I liked Witness a lot.  Yeah, the solution was a little goofy, but 
so are solutions in most pulp mysteries--a genre which Witness really 
nailed, in my opinion.  The feel of Witness was outstanding, and (like 
the other mysteries) it had some extremely good NPCs.  I had more fun 
with Witness than I did with the other mysteries, but that might be 
because I spent far more time on Witness than I did with the others, just 
wandering around and trying out different things.  I played Deadline and 
Suspect, but I _explored_ Witness.

And Deadline seemed to me to be slightly harder than Suspect, mostly 
because it had more subtle and time-sensitive events than Suspect did.

--
although i liked the duffy of deadline the most of the three
franklir@gas.uug.arizona.edu


From neild@echonyc.com Fri Feb  7 09:39:24 MET 1997
Article: 20825 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: neild@echonyc.com (Neil deMause)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-0; In the beginning...
Date: 6 Feb 1997 23:57:12 GMT
Organization: EchoNYC
Lines: 34
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Edan Harel (edharel@romulus.rutgers.edu) wrote:
: WhirlJack <cinnamon@io.com> writes:

: >This game is a really good game to show just how people think about
: >different things differently. (Hell, it's just a good game; my favorite
: >release of the last while, I would say.)

: Very good, in terms of the interactive part.  And good writing too.  It
: does, IMHO, seem to lack a concrete plot and direction, but still fun.
: I'm gunna enjoy finding new things in it.  I think I rate it higher than
: most of the games I remember playing in the competition (with the
: possible exceptions of Delusions, Fear and Alien Abduction, mainly
: because their strengths were ub their concrete directions and themes.)

Oh, do I love this game. Mostly because of its incredible level of 
detail -- not only does most every item and action seemingly have a 
specific response, but it has a specific *funny* response, or at least a
well-written one. (I truly realized just what the author had done when I 
was trying to spray the pepper spray and left off the "s" by accident,  
and got the response "I only understood you as far as wanting to pray."   
My *typos* it understands!) Mimesis up the wazoo!

Though the author says he's striving for "puzzle-free" I-F, I-0 still 
has plenty of obstacles for the player to overcome, and more plot than 
plenty of other games. It might well have been my favorite if it had been 
entered in the competition.

Okay, gotta go play more now.

Neil

P.S. If you haven't made it to the Taco Junta to hear the conversation by    
the menu board yet, you must.



From glend@worldweb.net Fri Feb  7 12:41:57 MET 1997
Article: 20834 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: glend@worldweb.net (Glen Dahlgren)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Legend's "Lost Adventures" (was: Eric the Unready: Great Game.)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 02:25:26 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <5d8gf9$msl@krypto.zippo.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

To those concerned,

I just wanted to poke in here and mention that Legend isn't going
anywhere (at least, we're not going away).  

Josh's claim that Legend is changing its status from a publisher to a
developer is true, but it is a statement as much about the condition
of the market as the condition of the company.  Publishers take
enormous risks (and get the enormous payoffs if their bets pay off).
If their product sinks (accompanied by a few of its fellows), it could
drag the company along with it. Take a look at Acclaim's current
situation for an example.  It takes a lot of money to fund today's
games--millions of dollars.  There simply aren't small publishers left
with that kind of money to risk anymore.

I'm not going to go into a lot of detail about Legend's status, but we
continue to be dedicated to producing top-quality entertainment
software.  Personally, I'm currently working on a multi-million dollar
game based on the Wheel of Time series of books by Robert Jordan. I am
very excited about our current prospects, and moreso about the
Legend's future.

We've gone through rough times, but so has the industry.  It's not so
much "us vs. the man" here--the godless big business trying to drag
the small developer down.  We've made the changes we had to make in
order to continue doing what we want to do: make great games.  And
that's never going to change.


Glen Dahlgren
Legend Entertainment Company





From mamster@u.washington.edu Sat Feb  8 09:23:44 MET 1997
Article: 20855 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: mamster@u.washington.edu (Matthew Amster-Burton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-0; In the beginning...
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 17:06:54 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <32fb60d8.2160933@news.u.washington.edu>
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rybread@cshore.com (Rybread Celsius) wrote:

>Also the biggest laugh, though slightly dirty, I've ever got from any game at
>any time....

This says something about the author for putting it in, something
about you for trying it, and something about me for following you.  My
response:  I've always thought there was a dearth of terms for female
masturbation, and now I've learned a new one.  My day is complete.
(And at 9:05a, no less!)

Matthew


From cinnamon@io.com Sat Feb  8 09:23:53 MET 1997
Article: 20850 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!solace!mn6.swip.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!news.io.com!not-for-mail
From: WhirlJack <cinnamon@io.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-0; In the beginning...
Date: 7 Feb 1997 21:08:26 GMT
Organization: Illuminati Online
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <5dg5ka$lnt$1@nntp-3.io.com>
References: <32f6a37c.192731@nntp.interaccess.com> <5d8cdm$368@news.bu.edu> <5da1h0$gdt$3@nntp-3.io.com> <5daven$8m0@beast.connix.com> <32fb60d8.2160933@news.u.washington.edu> <5dg27a$lkb$1@nntp-3.io.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com

WhirlJack <cinnamon@io.com> wrote:
> Try it twice, 'cause there's two. ;-)

I didn't think of this one at the time: try 'touch breast'. (Or examining
them, etc.)

-- 

WhirlJack -- cinnamon@io.com -- http://www.io.com/~cinnamon/
Some things are just pictures; they're scenes before your eyes.


From neild@echonyc.com Sat Feb  8 09:23:56 MET 1997
Article: 20852 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: neild@echonyc.com (Neil deMause)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-0; In the beginning...
Date: 7 Feb 1997 23:37:46 GMT
Organization: EchoNYC
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: WhirlJack <cinnamon@io.com> wrote:
: > Try it twice, 'cause there's two. ;-)

I must say, this game certainly knows more words for female body parts 
than any in I-F history (LGOP included). Not to mention creative uses for 
lip balm...

Neil


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Sat Feb  8 09:24:02 MET 1997
Article: 20845 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-0; In the beginning...
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 15:25:43 -0500
Organization: the fictional NOW chapter at Carnegie Mellon University
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Matthew Amster-Burton wrote:
> 
> This says something about the author for putting it in, something
> about you for trying it, and something about me for following you.  My
> response:  I've always thought there was a dearth of terms for female
> masturbation, and now I've learned a new one.

Actually, if you do it again and again (and what's the point if you
don't, right?) you should get three different terms before too long.
I have been encouraged to add more for Release 2 -- which will be out
in a day or two, so if you have any suggestions, send 'em quick.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Durham, NC
 http://www.duke.edu/~adamc


From Mark@antelope.demon.co.uk Sat Feb  8 20:38:59 MET 1997
Article: 20882 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Mark@antelope.demon.co.uk (Mark Green)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Mystery Science Theater 3000 #2 now available at gmd
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 97 04:12:39 GMT
Organization: The Dark Side of the M00se!
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In article <5dbu68$7qg@echo2.echonyc.com>
           neild@echonyc.com "Neil deMause" writes:
> I'd also like to add that while I still prefer MST3K1 (among other things, 
> there's still only one Detective), what I've played of MST3K2 so far has 
> had me giggling mightily. Also, it's got Joel instead of Mike, which 
> gives it bonus points in my book.
> 
> Thanks, Graeme!

  It's a very neat game, but I don't really like the habit of propping up an
IF game with sidefiles (the picture, the bleepy tunes, and the font
reconfigurer). 
  Unlike Detective I actually played the game this is based on.. the only
problem is that it has the exact same problem.  You go through a couple of
the cut-scenes and then get permanently stuck looping between them.  (Also,
I find it very suspicious that the run-file twice runs a program called
SCIFI.EXE which apparantly doesn't do anything apart from wait for a keypress
then clear the screen.  Yet, it's 54k of code with no visible messages, and
hence HIGHLY suspect.  It SCANs ok, but...)

Mg
-- 



From jota@laraby.tiac.net Sun Feb  9 11:34:20 MET 1997
Article: 20888 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jota@laraby.tiac.net (Admiral Jota)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I'm new to interactive fiction I need advice!
Date: 8 Feb 97 02:07:15 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Lines: 41
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Jonathan D Blask <jdblask@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> writes:
>On 7 Feb 1997, Lucian Paul Smith wrote:

>> Actually, I've had a bit of fun speculating on exactly how these games 
>> might take place in the same universe.  As mentioned, grues appear in all 
>> of them.  Double Fannucci is mentioned in Planetfall.  Floyd sings about 
>> the 'Starcrossed Miner', and the library on Resida mentions a past where 
>> robots used to be single-function. 

[...]
>  I personally, think of Planetfall being not too far after Starcross 
>(long enough for the Starcross story to become legendary, yes), so I 
>wouldn't really put the Zorks in between... an interesting idea, but in 
>my mind, I keep the Zorks and the space games separate (ignoring the 
>grues and the double fanucci).
>   And I guess I didn't play Suspended as much as I should have.

Interesting, I always thought of Planetfall as occurring in the Zork
world, far into the Age of Science. It seemed to me that the Stellar
Patrol would probably have been founded by people from the planet where
the Zorks took place (but thousands of years later). I played Planetfall
before Starcross, so I didn't pick up on the ballad until now, but I did
notice the grues and rat-ants in Starcrossed. I would place the
Zorks/Echanter Trilogy/Wishbringer first, then Starcross, then
Planetfall and Staionfall.

I never thought of putting Suspended in the same universe as the others,
but I guess it wouldn't surprise me too much if it were between
Starcrossed and Planetfall. I guess it *would* be possible to place the
games set on Earth into this timeline between the Zorks and Starcross
(because I see Starcrossed as being within a few hundred years from now,
but thousands of years after the Zorks), but I'm not sure if it's safe to
say that all the games which refer to the planet earth occur in the same
timeline :)

Hmm, so maybe the problems faced by Resida and Contra could have been
caused in part by the Leather Goddesses...
--
                                      /<-= Admiral  Jota =->\
                                    -< <-= jota@tiac.net =-> >-
                                      \<-=- -=  -=-  -= -=->/


From fxp4258@flourine.cs.rit.edu Sun Feb  9 16:20:24 MET 1997
Article: 20893 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: fxp4258@flourine.cs.rit.edu (Frank X Pape;951;icsg1;)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: IF World Online
Date: 9 Feb 1997 01:17:30 GMT
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
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Hello everyone!  I'd like to take this wonderful opportunity to
announce the official opening of IF Wold Online web site!  For those
of you who have been visiting the IF Gamer's Home Page at the same
address, you will notice some changes (like the name, for one!)

I would like to provide a resource for Interactive Fiction author
and player alike, where anyone can go for the latest news in the wide
world of IF.  Come check it out!  (at least to make me happy)

http://www.rit.edu/~fxp4258/if/

Frank Pape


From robrachel@aol.com Sun Feb  9 22:35:13 MET 1997
Article: 20914 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: robrachel@aol.com (RobRachel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Played Zork I again for the first time since 1984
Date: 9 Feb 1997 18:41:30 GMT
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I just spent last night replaying Zork I for the first time since 1984 (or
so) and was struck by several things:

1. How easy it is to get the game into an unwinnable state.
2. This game is not meant to be played linearly.
3. How far the medium has come.

(The following comments on those comments contain some spoilers).

I played the game through rather quickly, relying on some of the stuff
Activision sent along (like the maps of the coal mine and maze), to avoid
some boring stretches of mapping. Even having won before and remembering
70% of the puzzles or so, it was amazingly easy to screw things up. To
point: my lantern battery went dead at first. After you *see* the candles,
you have to blow them out or they burn down within 10-20 turns, even if
you don't take them. You can lose stuff in the river. etc.

Also, unlike most games written today, Zork I really isn't meant to be
played start to finish. Rather, you have to poke around in a lot of
different areas over several games, figuring out the puzzles
independently, then go back to the beginning and solve them all in order,
once you have the timing down. And you can carry so few things in this
game that half the time I was dealing with inventory management.

Finally, the game has such a simplistic feel to it that it shows what was
done with the medium both by later Infocom and by people today. The thing
that struck me the most was how quiet everything seemed...

-Rob

Rob Daviau

Lopez is a lazy man.


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Mon Feb 10 10:21:24 CET 1997
Article: 20933 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-0
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 04:02:46 -0500
Organization: the fictional NOW chapter at Carnegie Mellon University
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Adam Dawes wrote:
> 
> Hi Adam!

Hi, uh, Adam.  Hmm.  Usually I refuse to talk to people named Adam
because I get all confused, but I guess I can make an exception.
 
> Just thought I'd say that I'm finding I-0 rather amusing. :)

Thanks!
 
> I've not actually /got/ very far yet, due to having spent more of the
> game running around with no clothes on. But hey, this is what
> interactive fiction is for isn't it? :)

This is what I really wanted to respond to.  When I put the risque
stuff in the game, I figured that maybe 50% of the people playing it
would actually try any of it.  As it's turned out, that figure is
closer to 117%.  Just out of curiosity -- and this is addressed to
anyone who's played I-0 -- how come?  Do you try being naughty in
every game and it just so happened that this one let you?  Was it the
late-night-cable setting of the game that got you thinking along
such lines?  Was it the fact that the inventory lists what Tracy is
wearing, and you figured that it'd only mention it if you were meant
to undress?  Was it because Tracy's female?  Did you try to run around
naked in PLUNDERED HEARTS?  How about ZORK?

Not that there's anything wrong with it -- frankly, I'm pleased to
know that all those responses I coded in are actually being read.  I'm
just curious.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Durham, NC
 http://www.duke.edu/~adamc


From mol@marvin.df.lth.se Mon Feb 10 12:30:52 MET 1997
Article: 20934 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!mol
From: mol@marvin.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-0
Date: 10 Feb 1997 10:00:36 GMT
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In article <32FEE436.15D8@acpub.duke.edu>,
Adam Cadre  <adamc@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>When I put the risque
>stuff in the game, I figured that maybe 50% of the people playing it
>would actually try any of it.  As it's turned out, that figure is
>closer to 117%.

You now have a deeper understanding of human nature.
You score has gone up by 10 points.

>Just out of curiosity -- and this is addressed to
>anyone who's played I-0 -- how come?  Do you try being naughty in
>every game and it just so happened that this one let you?  Was it the
>late-night-cable setting of the game that got you thinking along
>such lines?  Was it the fact that the inventory lists what Tracy is
>wearing, and you figured that it'd only mention it if you were meant
>to undress?  Was it because Tracy's female?  Did you try to run around
>naked in PLUNDERED HEARTS?  How about ZORK?

In my case, Tracy's being female has nothing to do with it. Actually,
"undress" is one of the verbs I try in evry game that mentions
clothes, just like I try to eat everything, take everything, blow
everything up, etc, just to see what kind of responses I get. Sometimes,
rude actions get unanticipated rewards - such as learning about the fate
of poor Benny the Fluff Duck in "Ralph"...

In "I-0", however, I didn't really intend to be naughty at all.
Seriously, honest, cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die, I didn't. I just
thought "Hmm, it's awfully warm here. And the game mentions what I'm
wearing. Perhaps I'll be cooler if I undress." I did expect the game
either to disallow undressing altogether, or to stop at underwear. 

The message I got instead made me think "Oh, it's one of those games,"
and then of course I had to make a point of being naughty :-).

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)


From jota@laraby.tiac.net Mon Feb 10 12:31:55 MET 1997
Article: 20936 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jota@laraby.tiac.net (Admiral Jota)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-0
Date: 10 Feb 97 11:20:57 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
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Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu> writes:

>This is what I really wanted to respond to.  When I put the risque
>stuff in the game, I figured that maybe 50% of the people playing it
>would actually try any of it.  As it's turned out, that figure is
>closer to 117%.  

Heh. I'm not surprised whatsoever. There's a reason that Infocom's Leather
Goddesses of Phobos and Sierra's Leisure Suit Larry series were so
popular.

>Just out of curiosity -- and this is addressed to anyone who's played I-0
>-- how come?  Do you try being naughty in every game and it just so
>happened that this one let you?  Was it the late-night-cable setting of
>the game that got you thinking along such lines?  Was it the fact that
>the inventory lists what Tracy is wearing, and you figured that it'd only
>mention it if you were meant to undress?  

Actually, it's mostly for the last reason. Whenever I see an object, I try
to perform the most obvious actions with it (if those work, I try
performing the least obvious actions). If the I find an article of
clothing, I automatically try it on. I was walking around Zork Zero with
about three or four hats on most of the time. If the character *starts
out* wearing clothing, I automatically try to take it off. As soon as I
got the message 'You're now naked in a parked car, a not uncommon
situation for you.', I made the guess that this was supposed to be the
afore mentioned 'late-night-cable setting', and attempted to test the
theory... and all evidence supported it.

>Was it because Tracy's female? Did you try to run around naked in
>PLUNDERED HEARTS?  How about ZORK? 

Er, well... You see, Plundered Hearts, like I-0, mentioned clothing, and
so you see, well, I...

Ahem, anyway, there wasn't anything to take off in Zork. (And I can safely
say that I didn't feel any urge to run around naked in +=3. So there.)

>Not that there's anything wrong with it -- frankly, I'm pleased to
>know that all those responses I coded in are actually being read.  I'm
>just curious.

OK, I know I can't be the only one out here who got ticked off when the
sun set... (If you know what I'm talking about, you know what I'm talking
about.)

--
                                      /<-= Admiral  Jota =->\
                                    -< <-= jota@tiac.net =-> >-
                                      \<-=- -=  -=-  -= -=->/


From neild@echonyc.com Mon Feb 10 19:47:36 MET 1997
Article: 20946 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: neild@echonyc.com (Neil deMause)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-0
Date: 10 Feb 1997 17:30:50 GMT
Organization: EchoNYC
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Magnus Olsson (mol@marvin.df.lth.se) wrote:

: In my case, Tracy's being female has nothing to do with it. Actually,
: "undress" is one of the verbs I try in evry game that mentions
: clothes, just like I try to eat everything, take everything, blow
: everything up, etc, just to see what kind of responses I get. Sometimes,
: rude actions get unanticipated rewards - such as learning about the fate
: of poor Benny the Fluff Duck in "Ralph"...

: In "I-0", however, I didn't really intend to be naughty at all.
: Seriously, honest, cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die, I didn't. I just
: thought "Hmm, it's awfully warm here. And the game mentions what I'm
: wearing. Perhaps I'll be cooler if I undress." I did expect the game
: either to disallow undressing altogether, or to stop at underwear. 

: The message I got instead made me think "Oh, it's one of those games,"
: and then of course I had to make a point of being naughty :-).

I had a very similar experience -- I noticed that my clothes were 
defined, I noticed that it was hot... And then, once I realize I could 
run around without my clothes on and get reactions from people, I tried 
it in every possible situation. 

Besides, let's face it, there aren't a lot of games out there that let 
you have sex (though I suppose I-0 doesn't actually -- damn that 
sunset...). So people are going to try it. A lot. But at least for me, 
I've also spent an equal or greater amount of time on other futile actions 
(like bumming a cigarette from Fred -- selfish jerk), so I don't think 
people are *just* treating this as "Tracy Does Dorado."

Neil


From jruschme@hiway1.exit109.com Mon Feb 10 19:48:23 MET 1997
Article: 20943 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jruschme@hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-0
Date: 10 Feb 1997 11:03:54 -0500
Organization: Lots o' Little Piles
Lines: 8
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NNTP-Posting-Host: hiway1.exit109.com

In article <32FEE436.15D8@acpub.duke.edu>,
Adam Cadre  <adamc@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>Did you try to run around naked in PLUNDERED HEARTS?  How about ZORK?

Plundered, yes. Though it does tend to get you killed *real* quick.
Zork, no. (Though I did in Planetfall.)

<<<John>>>


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Tue Feb 11 09:41:22 MET 1997
Article: 20983 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-0
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:37:05 -0500
Organization: the fictional NOW chapter at Carnegie Mellon University
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <32FFCD40.32C7@acpub.duke.edu>
References: <855552930.65113.5@darkside.demon.co.uk> <32FEE436.15D8@acpub.duke.edu> <5dnu1b$s11$2@nntp-3.io.com> <5do3q7$gi8@hiway1.exit109.com>
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John Ruschmeyer wrote:
> 
> I mean, here I am, hours late, walking into Thanksgiving dinner naked
> and no one says *anything*?

Umm... after 17 years and 364 days of such antics, they're used to it?

Seriously, though, I could've sworn I fixed that before Release 1.
It's definitely fixed for Release 2... though, since they =are= used
to it, the reaction may be somewhat more minor than you expected.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Durham, NC
 http://www.duke.edu/~adamc


From baf@max.tiac.net Tue Feb 11 09:42:28 MET 1997
Article: 20969 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.0.65.182!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!max.tiac.net!baf
From: baf@max.tiac.net (Carl Muckenhoupt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-0
Date: 10 Feb 97 23:19:14 GMT
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Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu> writes:

>This is what I really wanted to respond to.  When I put the risque
>stuff in the game, I figured that maybe 50% of the people playing it
>would actually try any of it.  As it's turned out, that figure is
>closer to 117%.  Just out of curiosity -- and this is addressed to
>anyone who's played I-0 -- how come?  Do you try being naughty in
>every game and it just so happened that this one let you?  Was it the
>late-night-cable setting of the game that got you thinking along
>such lines?  Was it the fact that the inventory lists what Tracy is
>wearing, and you figured that it'd only mention it if you were meant
>to undress?  Was it because Tracy's female?  Did you try to run around
>naked in PLUNDERED HEARTS?  How about ZORK?

Never underestimate the because-I-can factor.  If there's one thing
people will consistently do in games, it's experiment with the
perceived game mechanics and try to push them to the limit.  Take
the Ultima series.  Everyone, without exception, tries to kill
Lord British at some point.  Why?  Do they all hate authority?  Perhaps,
but the stronger reason is, I think, simply that the game mechanics,
which are heavily combat-oriented, allow you to attempt to kill him.
If they did not, I doubt it would occur to most people that they
had any desire to do so.

Likewise with Tracy.  Now, I won't claim that there are no perverts on
the Internet.  However, the main reason that everyone, without exception,
regardless of gender, sexual orientation, or moral standards, tries
undressing her is simply that the game makes it abundantly clear that we
can.  Furthermore, it actually rewards such experiments by having
characters react - if there's one motivation stronger than "I can",
it's "I can, and something happens if I do."

This last point is, of course, the very heart of IF's appeal.

-- 
Carl Muckenhoupt              | Text Adventures are not dead!
baf@tiac.net                  | Read rec.[arts|games].int-fiction to see
http://www.tiac.net/users/baf | what you're missing!


From jcompton@typhoon.xnet.com Tue Feb 11 09:42:56 MET 1997
Article: 20972 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jcompton@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Strangest medium for IF you've ever seen?
Date: 11 Feb 1997 02:41:53 GMT
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I was just reading through Baf's Guide and found myself wondering what
most unusual or unlikely medium for IF has ever been.

While it's a fairly loose definition of IF, if pressed I would have to say
it was the "Escape from Commodore!" game implemented in the standard Amiga
installer script.  Not very "interactive" since all of your options
consist of choosing from a menu of radio button choices, but novel.
There's even a puzzle of the "bring item X from location A to location B"
variety.

As honorable mention, although it isn't IF, I would have to mention the
Atari 2600 implementation of the classic Star Trek "kill X Klingons in Y
stardates, Captain" game I recently found while combing through 2600
images.  Now THAT'S bizarre.

-- 
Jason Compton                                  jcompton@xnet.com
Editor-in-Chief, Amiga Report Magazine         (847) 741-0689 FAX
AR on Aminet - docs/mags/ar???.lha             WWW - http://www.cucug.org/ar/
Pythagoras with the looking glass...           ...reflects the full moon.



From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Feb 12 10:17:01 MET 1997
Article: 21032 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Award IF references
Message-ID: <erkyrathE5GoMC.4xx@netcom.com>
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Ok, here is the winning entry in the subcontest of "find all the IF 
references in the XYZZYnews award MUD." 

The other entry had fewer references, so this one wins.

On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Admiral Jota wrote:

> Well, here's the list of IF references I found on at the XYZZY awards.
> Even if I didn't find all of them, I'm sure I've 'found' quite a few that
> weren't even there:

Oh, did you ever.

> The mist could possibly be the mist from Adventure, but it's much more
> likely from So Far.

Actually, it's from the original TinyMUD, and was written in summer of 
1989. I don't know what the author was thinking of. Probably he just 
made it up. 
 
> The Antharian marble is from Antharia, which is in/near the GUE.

One point.

> The portaits contain references to four IF languages: Inform, TADS, Hugo,
> and AGT (the ALanians won't be particularly happy with you).

Four more points. (And never mind ADL, ADMS, Advent, Advsys, GAGS, GINAS, 
GTAC, LADS, OASYS... what the hell are these things?)
 
> The portraits also contain references to Angela M Horns (author of
> Sherbet), the Wizard of Frobozz (Zork II), and the player in Infidel
> (dying of thirst).

Two points. The character in the desert is not a reference to any 
existing IF work.

> The basement contains the sandbags from Weather, which are labelled as
> FCD#2 (predecessor to the great FCD#3 of Zork I and Dungeon), and which
> surround the leaky pipe from Curses.

FCD#2 is right, and I must allow the sandbags (I didn't think of them
specifically as the "Weather" sandbags, but they're sandbags.) I don't
remember any leaky pipe in Curses. Oh... got it. But I had forgotten when
I wrote it. Two points, not three. 
 
> The west end of the basement is described in a manor similar to the west
> end of the long, featureless hall in Adventure.

One point.
 
> The hole resembles the holes in LGOP -- except that this hole leads down,
> whereas the LGOP holes didn't lead in any conventional direction.

Uh, no. It's just a normal hole, not a black circle. In fact it's pretty 
much the same as the actual hole leading to the maze in Adventure.
 
> When one tries to take the note, a mention is made of the concept
> of scoring points for acquiring an object: a stadard IF concept.

Yup.
 
> The magic word 'wazzum' is from UU1.

Yup.
 
> The text of the note matches the format of the text in Adventure's Debris
> Room.

Actually, it's copied from UU1, but that is itself a reference to 
Adventure in its format. One point.
 
> The maze is very much like the vending machine maze from Adventure,
> including the differing room descriptions and a Dead End with the actual
> (but non-functioning) vending machine.

Yup. Although you could have mentioned the non-functional vending machine 
in "Frobozz Magic Support".

> The half bathroom is a demi-john, a reference to Curses.

Yes, yes. (Everyone got this, right?)

> Could the void
> also be a reference to Frobozz Magic Support?

No.
 
> If you head north from the auditorium, you meet the janitor from So Far

Yup.

> (although I have no idea what IF the velvet rope is from).

Geez, it's just a velvet rope.
 
> The hedge maze could refer to any number of hedge mazes in IF (Curses, GC,
> etc.).

Here is here we begin to fly off the handle, pal. The entire hedge maze 
was written by me, for the original TinyMUD, sometime in late 1989 or 
early 1990. _So Far_ did not exist. _Curses_ and _Jigsaw_ did not exist. 
Most of the other stuff you cite did not exist. I *still* haven't played 
"My First Stupid Game". Etc.

There is exactly one IF reference in the tarot garden...
 
> The concept of using tarot symbols could refer to either Curses or Shades
> of Gray.
> 
> The cards themselves:
> Key 21: The Globe resembles Small World.
> Key 20: The hourglass resembles a Klein bottle (Trinity). The way the sand
> returns to the top is reminiscent of the recursiveness of Don't Be Late.
> Key 18: The sphere could be one of the spheres in Spiritwrak, or perhaps
> the name of the Key (Moon) is a reference to Jigsaw.
> Key 17: The lichen could be from Zork II (luminescent moss) or So Far
> (cramped, crawling).
> Key 16: The broken tower is from Spiritwrak, and the scaffolding within is
> from the gate towers of So Far.
> Key 14: Perhaps the small stream (flowing from chalice to chalice) is from
> My First Stupid Game?
> Key 13: The man in the three spheres is Tim Hunter, from Tapestry.
> Key 11: The use of coins on scales is from Balances, and the wooden staves
> are almost certainly (featureless) mahogany rods.
> Key 10: I'm told that there are gears like this in Time, and the gears
> could also be from the Enigma machine in Jigsaw.
> Key 9: The brass lamp is obvious. It began in Adventure, was immortalized
> in Dungeon and the Zorks, and has lived in our hearts ever since.

...and this is it. You get one last lousy point.

> Key 8: The topiary is probably from Zork II. The vine could be from So Far
> (where the pods grew), but it's more likely that it's from Gateway: the
> vine is around the neck of a beast, and there are crystals in its eyes.
> The bloom could possibly be a compass rose (from various Zorkish games),
> and perhaps the stones are like Stonehenge (I heard a rumor that part of
> Avalon might take place in Stonehenge).
> Key 7: A wild ride with two beasts? It has So Far written all over it.
> Key 6: The three women and one man remind me of the three Fates and
> Morningstar, from Tapestry.
> Key 4: The image of a sword combined with the concept of kingness make me
> think of Arthur.
> Key 2: This sword also makes me think of Arthur, because of the fact that
> it's embedded in the ground.
> Key 1: The Alpha and Omega are clearly from Trinity. Could the Yin and
> Yang be from One Hand Clapping? Or perhaps the hand itself (y'know, 'one
> hand')? The title of the key (Magician) is possibly a reference to the
> Enchanter trilogy, and the Spellcasting games.
> Key 0: The Fool: The protagonist in all IF! Also, a Fool is a jester, the
> primary NPC of Zork Zero. And there was also a prominant character in
> Simon&Schuster's 'Star Trek: The Promethean Prophecy' who called himself
> 'The Fool'. And perhaps the pedestal *is* occupied: could it be a
> sculpture of an Adventurer in Zork III, who has drunk from the sailor's
> vial?
> 
> Lastly, there's the number of rooms available to the public: 22 Keys in
> the Garden, plus the Garden's entrance, the hallway, the bathroom, the
> foyer, the auditorium, Limbo, and both sides of the basement, plus 12
> rooms in the maze (including the end) equals 42. An obvious reference to
> the Hitchhiker's Guide.

You're weird, Marcie.
 
> Whew. That's everything I found -- although I did get a lot of help by
> talking to several other players about it (especially inky).

[inky being Dan Shiovitz]

You only missed one that I can recall: The welcome message begins 
"A voice booooms out..." Which is, of course, from Adventureland (Scott 
Adams Adventure #1) and several other Adams games.
 
> BTW, if I win, I think I'd like an ASCII drawing of the Thief, from
> Dungeon/Zork I. (That *is* what you meant by an 'ASCII character', isn't
> it?

Uh... sure. Here you go.

|
|
|/\
|\/
|--    /
|\ \  X
|| \\/
|\ |
||_\
|\\\\
| \//
| //\
|/__|\___

The Thief, Leaning Casually Against a Wall, Holding a Sharp Stiletto
* Andrew Plotkin
* (ASCII on canvas)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From d91frera@ida.liu.se Wed Feb 12 14:49:40 MET 1997
Article: 21080 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!solace!news.ifm.liu.se!liuida!d91frera
From: d91frera@ida.liu.se (FReDRiK RaMSBeRG (WILdcARD))
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Strangest medium for IF you've ever seen?
Date: 11 Feb 1997 21:58:30 GMT
Organization: CIS Dept, Linkoping University, Sweden
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baf@max.tiac.net (Carl Muckenhoupt) writes:

>Well, there's always the two games "The Hobbit: The True Story" and
>"MechaGodzilla: The True Story", which are written in MS-DOS batch
>scripts.  The command prompt is simply the DOS shell.  That's strange.

I could correct both Carl's and my own statement here. Mecha Godzilla is
in fact not written in the silly MS-DOS batch language. It is written in an
even sillier language and then compiled to batch-files. The language is a
part of AM, or Adventure Maker, the utmost sillyness in IF authoring systems.
It is so silly that no other games have yet been written in it, and it has not
been released to the public. The compiler was written by Johan Berntsson
in Q-Basic, which is yet to receive any recognition as a language for
writing compilers in. All in all, AM is also a rather unlikely system for
developing IF.

/Fredrik
--
Fredrik Ramsberg, d91frera@und.ida.liu.se, http://www-und.ida.liu.se/~d91frera
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want to make it perfectly clear that I can't say I don't think people who
aren't avoiding using too many negations aren't putting things clearly enough.


From fake-mail@anti-spam.address Thu Feb 13 09:29:58 MET 1997
Article: 21106 of rec.games.int-fiction


From adam@yuma.Princeton.EDU Thu Feb 13 09:30:25 MET 1997
Article: 21128 of rec.games.int-fiction


From adam@yuma.Princeton.EDU Thu Feb 13 09:31:43 MET 1997
Article: 21113 of rec.games.int-fiction


From ceforman@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Thu Feb 13 09:33:30 MET 1997
Article: 21117 of rec.games.int-fiction


From zifnab@rhein-neckar.netsurf.de Thu Feb 13 10:44:02 MET 1997
Article: 21123 of rec.games.int-fiction


From fake-mail@anti-spam.address Thu Feb 13 10:51:15 MET 1997
Article: 21106 of rec.games.int-fiction


From adam@yuma.Princeton.EDU Thu Feb 13 10:51:26 MET 1997
Article: 21129 of rec.games.int-fiction


From neild@echonyc.com Fri Feb 14 09:24:59 MET 1997
Article: 21159 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!solace!nntp.uio.no!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!198.67.15.6!news.echonyc.com!echonyc.com!neild
From: neild@echonyc.com (Neil deMause)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: MST3K2 initial impression
Date: 14 Feb 1997 02:06:47 GMT
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References: <3300efcf.12849101@news.u.washington.edu> <erkyrathE5I8t2.2vK@netcom.com> <fake-mail-ya02408000R1202971419010001@news.direct.ca> <5dtnvl$e0l@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <5dtocu$e7r@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
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Adam J. Thornton (adam@yuma.Princeton.EDU) wrote:
: In article <5dtnvl$e0l@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
: Adam J. Thornton <adam@yuma.Princeton.EDU> wrote:
: >In article <fake-mail-ya02408000R1202971419010001@news.direct.ca>,
: >Neil K. <fake-mail@anti-spam.address> wrote:
: >>And we now have the ability/tools/whatever to create programs
: >>that we dreamt of when we were kids. My game in progress, for instance,
: >>(which unlike previous efforts *will* get finished one day. Really!) has it
: >>origins in ideas I came up with in around 1983-5 or so.
: >Me too.

MacWesleyan (this is probably documented in XYZZYNews somewhere, but 
maybe not) was initially written for notebook-and-dungeonmaster in early 
1989, because I never dreamed that I would ever be able to actually 
program my own I-F.

About two years after that, it was rewritten for WorldBuilder, a Mac 
program that probably makes AppleSoft Basic look like LISP. Most 
attempted actions got the useful response "Huh?"

Shortly before WorldBuilder, I had discovered AGT, printed out the 
manual, and spent several weeks poring over it. Then I discovered that 
it wouldn't compile on the Mac. I filed the manuals away, along with a 
partially-designed game of which exactly one piece would later surface in 
Lost New York. (The abandoned station in the subway, if anyone's interested.)

Finally, nearly six years after first dreaming of writing my own I-F, I 
happened upon TADS, and the rest you know. 

: But what I really wanted to say was, about three years ago, when I was
: simultaneously betatesting UU0 and Avalon, I took a look around.  When I
: was twelve, I couldn't think of anything cooler in the world than to be an
: Infocom beta-tester.

: And here I was, my senior year of college, doing, in essence, just that.  I
: had achieved my boyhood dream.  I was testing high-quality Interactive
: Fiction, after I had survived the dark days of AGT and AdvSys's
: incomprehensibility.  I thought I was going to cry.  It was great.  And
: furthermore, I had the tools to write my own some day.  In a very real
: sense, rec.*.int-fiction let me live out some of my dearest adolescent
: fantasies.  Most of the others have turned out, in the end, to be not what
: they were cracked up to be.  Go figure.

What a beautiful post. And wonderfully cheering.

It's nice to sit back every once in a while and remember just how cool it 
is to be doing what we're doing.

Neil


From s7m6@romulus.sun.csd.unb.ca Tue Feb 18 21:35:21 MET 1997
Article: 21275 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Brad O`Donnell <s7m6@romulus.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Help with Pick Up the Phone Booth...
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:43:51 -0400
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Stephen Granade wrote:
> 
> Hihi,
> 
> I've been working through PUtPBaD, but have become completely stymied.
> 
> SPOILER SPACE


















> 
> With the help of the diary pages and the judicious use of some pods I
> managed to get past the huge metal gate, but since then things have gone
> downhill.  I've found Professor Widderspin's room, but am stuck in it.  I
> suspect the good man would help me out if only I could solve his Enigma
> machine, but it looks horribly tedious to work out.
> 

  Hint: Examine the diary pages much more closely.  That should help you
 out both now, and later...



> To top it off, I was able to slay the displacer beast and make a cloak of
> its skin, but even while wearing the resultant cloak of invisibility I
> can't sneak past the park ranger in the top of the statue, nor am I able
> to lose the pesky devil who keeps following me around, offering me a
> contract to sign.
> 

   I haven't got that far down that *particular* path... So I can't help
you.  
  Although I found a pitchfork in the "Whirlpool Room" which could help.

> None of the bedistors I found are of any use as of yet, and I can't even
> find the navigation box, which I suspect holds the map I need.  Meanwhile
> the method of getting the babel fish eludes me, and all Leo will say is
> "Rosebud."

  The navigation box is exactly where it should be... but you have to
distract
 the navigator with his "favorite thing", which shouldn't be too hard.

  Have you tried a fishing rod?  Once again I refer you to the Whirlpool
Room,
 which you have (probably) not found...

  As for Leo, make use of the player's feminine wiles...

> 
> Can anyone help?
> 

  I hope this does... 

> Thanks,
> 
> Stephen


--
				Brad O'Donnell 
		"A story is a string of moments, held together by memory."


From spatula@underground.error.net Wed Feb 19 15:32:39 MET 1997
Article: 21191 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: spatula@underground.error.net (they got purple; purple's a fruit)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Phone Booth being suppressed?
Date: 14 Feb 1997 22:58:53 GMT
Organization: Pulling Mussels From The Shell
Lines: 37
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And behold, Shaken Angel <jbfink@ogre.lib.muohio.edu> did spake, speaking:
> Jason Compton (jcompton@typhoon.xnet.com) wrote:
> : And why is it, exactly, that I haven't seen Mr. R. Noyes' seminal work
> : Pick Up the Phone Booth and Die discussed in great detail on this
> : newsgroup, nor its title announced far and wide on the gmd archive?  It's
> : not even ON the GMD archive, last time I checked!
> 
> : It's a don't-miss.  http://javanet.com/~spatula is the place.

Well, actually, http://javanet.com/~spatula/booth2.html, but I digress,
which is something I don't do that often.

> 
> Wow!  I actually solved this in UNDER A MINUTE!  Booted up the game,
> picked up the phone booth, died, restarted, did the winning thing (I ain't
> REALLY gonna tell you how to win -- suffice to say it's really easy and
> obvious, when you think about it) and won!  
> 
> That's the quickest time I've ever had for solving IF, beating out the
> three minutes I spent on the excellent Interstate Zero just about a week
> ago.

It still doesn't beat the time it took for me to write it.  Hi.  I'm the
author.  I don't have a very good reason why I never uploaded PUTPBAD or
its sequel demo to GMD, other than I never did it.  I was loath to enter
the first into any competition whatsoever, because I know it'd lose and
probably to Graham Nelson in drag, even.  Anyhow.  

Who was the nice person who uploaded the two to GMD?  I started to do it
and found it had already happened.  Well, thanks.  Wow.

-- 
spatula@error.net, chief engineer (toot toot!) Spatula Labs, error.net/~spatula

   "Pez is cheap; smiles are priceless." - C. L. McCoy
                                                                mstie#43790



From mas.supplies@easynet.co.uk Fri Feb 21 15:46:47 MET 1997
Article: 21327 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: mas.supplies@easynet.co.uk (Bill Hoggett)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Level 9 help (no spoilers)
Date: 20 Feb 97 21:34:55 +0500
Organization: [posted via] Easynet Group PLC
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On 20-Feb-97 Cal wrote:

>Is it possible to get the text of the manuals from Level 9 games
>(particularly  the Time and Magik / Silicon Dreams trilogies) anywhere on the
>web?

>Failing that, are there any spells (apart from Xyzzy) that do anything in the
> Time and Magik games?

I don't think the manuals are anywhere on the Web, but there's not much in the
line of clues in them anyway. The Time and Magik trilogy was initially
released as three stand-alone games and since these were on cassette
tapes, there's not much room for a meaty manual on the inlays <g>

The first game, LORDS OF TIME, doesn't have much to do with spells anyway as
it preceeded the other two by a few years and was never really part of a
trilogy. As for the other two games... hang on while I dig out my originals...


...OK, here's what you need to know. I'll type out the intro stories and post
them to GMD together with any useful instructions in a while.

RED MOON
--------

MAGIK   To cast a spell enter: CAST spell-name optional-target


SPELL           FOCUS           ACTION

BOUNCE          BLACK BALL      Reverse fall
ESCAPE          DULCIMER        Teleport to/from start
EXTINGUISH      FAN             Put out fire
FIND            LAMP            Locate object
MAGIC           MEDALLION       Is object magical ?
RESTORE         none            RESTORE
SAVE            none            SAVE
SHIELD          CLOAK           Ward off attack for a while
SNOOP           PEARL           Look into nearby room
STRONG          SPICES          Become stronger for a while
TREASURE        GLOVES          Is object valuable ?
ZAP             DAGGER          Attack enemy magically

COMBAT  You may need to fight some of the creatures you find in this
adventure. If you do attack something, consider carrying a weapon and wearing
armour first. Magik may help.

SCORING The main aim of the game is to recover the Red Moon Crystal, and you
score points for making progress towards this goal. In addition, you score 50
points for collecting each of 9 treasures which you should find along the way.
Naturally, you should avoid getting killed.

THE PRICE OF MAGIK
------------------

No special instructions here except that you may pull out of combat situations
by returning the way you came (this almost always works <g>).

The object of the game is to know everything (you start off knowing nothing).
There are 18 spells to find and learn but it's up to you to discover what each
does!


The other thing to remember is that some of these games (it depends on where
the datafile originated from) have what was known as "Lenslok" copy
protection. This involved holding a special plastic lens to the screen and
trying to make out what the garbled letters were. I say *trying* advisedly.
Most often this was triggered off by the "SAVE" or "RESTORE" command and
unless you are lucky enough to have a Level 9 interpreter port that supports
pull-down menu operations you may have to play the games in one session. If
the data files originated from a 16-bit machine like the Amiga then it is
unlikely that copy protection will be encountered.



---
Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay)   <mas.supplies@easynet.co.uk>

IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ?



From kinder@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 21 15:58:44 MET 1997
Article: 21334 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: kinder@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk (David Kinder)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Level 9 help (no spoilers)
Date: 21 Feb 1997 13:30:49 GMT
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KSS ("swifty@club-internet.fr"@club-internet.fr) wrote:

: You can also play lvl9 games on a Spectrum emulator (Z80).There is
:  then an easy way to bypass Lenslok : the games first allows you to
:  position correctly your Lenslok with the test message OK.So save your
:  game at this point, and search the save file for "OK".The Lenslok codes
:  will then be saved at the same adress.

Or use the Level9 interpreter. It's "#restore" function bypasses the copy
protection you get on a restore command.

David


From MKST21C@prodigy.com Sun Feb 23 10:00:31 MET 1997
Article: 21382 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: MKST21C@prodigy.com (Chris Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: XYZZY
Date: 23 Feb 1997 02:53:25 GMT
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neild@echonyc.com (Neil deMause) wrote:
>
>David Lebling (david_lebling@avid.com) wrote:
>: Ik-ziz'ee (i.e., "X"-izzy) was the official pronunciation at MIT and
>: Infocom.
>
>You all were weird. :)
>
>Neil

   Indeed. It was their eccentricity that helped give classics like Zork, 
Enchanter, and the other Infocom games their charm. Thanks to Dave 
Lebling and others, adventurers now run the risk of being eaten by grues 
(or like-minded carniverous creatures) if they wander around dark places 
without a light source, rather than fall into a bottomless pit like the 
old days. As well as 'grue', they've also contributed the words 'Frobozz',
 'Frotz', 'Fweep', and several others to the language...(grin).
   Of course, XYZZY and PLUGH were not their invention. They came from 
the original Adventure, which, of course, inspired the original mainframe 
Zork.

                                           Chris Lang



From zifnab@rhein-neckar.netsurf.de Mon Feb 24 17:54:51 MET 1997
Article: 21416 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: zifnab@rhein-neckar.netsurf.de (Heiko Nock)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I'm new to interactive fiction I need advice!
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 00:45:27 +0100
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In article <jota.855813803@laraby.tiac.net>,
jota@laraby.tiac.net (Admiral Jota) wrote:
>zifnab@rhein-neckar.netsurf.de (Heiko Nock) writes:
>[daly@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly) didn't know of any evidence that
>Planetfall or Stationfall took place in the Zork universe.]
>>Have you never wondered why they chose a filthy and decaying castle as a
>>setting for a science fiction game ? 
>Actually, I got the impression that it was a cement/metal structure, like
>many normal Earth buildings.

So ? Cement is the right material for a nice decaying castle, isn't it?

Anyway, i have *PROOF* that the castle in Planetfall is part of
the ZORK universe and i have also *PROOF* that it is on the same planet
where all the other games (Zork Zero to Beyond Zork and Enchanter
to Spellbreaker, etc...) took place.

(melodramatic drum roll)

It is officially mentioned in the Hintbook! I was sure that i had read
that remark sometime ago but i just couldn't find it anymore.
But right now i remembered where i had seen it. It's in the Sorcerer
Hintbook. I quote:

-------------------------------------------------------
How do i enter the West Wing of the ruined castle ?
   - Play Planetfall (tm) instead of Sorcerer.
-------------------------------------------------------

>>Usually one would expect a clean and shiny metal complex. 
>I certainly wouldn't expect anything clean or shiny.

Why not ? Advanced technology would surely produce improved cleaning
machines, dirt-resistant material, etc...

>Really, who would want to live in an all-metal building?

Picture yourself a hundred years ago...If someone had asked you whether
you would like to live in a modern, tall skyscraper or remain in your
comfortable, little house in the country, what would you've said ?

It's hard to believe that you would have preferred the skyscraper, yet
today many people live in such buildings. Time changes...people and the
world....

>>I always took it for granted that the castle in the beginning of
>>Planetfall was supposed to be the older version of the castle in
>>Enchanter. 
>That idea never even entered my mind.The geography in Planetfall didn't
>seem to resemble the geography of Krill's caslte at all, especially the
>underground part.

You're right. I was talking about the wrong game. There's a castle in
sorcerer, too, and that one has the right geography.
The plaque at the planetfall castle entrance even mentions the
right geography. The Kalamontee valley and the gulmaan river.

>[snip]
>>It's not very hard to imagine that an alien artifact that has gathered
>>such a lot of different species from different planets could also have
>>visited Earth before. Most of the artifact's machinery was damaged or
>>failing and that might have affected pieces of machinery that had kept 
>>the artifact from being spotted by human technology in the past.
>I don't really see the connection. Are you saying that the grues and
>rat-ants may have come from Earth?

Yes. Earth, the planet where the Age of Magic ended and the Age of
Science began.

>I find this rather hard to believe, since I don't believe grues and
>rat-ants are native to this planet.

Not to our Earth, no (unfortunately). :) But to the ZORK Earth.
They still existed in the Age of Science where they might have been
picked up for science purposes by an exploring spacecraft, the
Starcross, for example.

Ciao/2, Heiko....


From don@madrigal.clari.net Thu Feb 27 17:36:55 MET 1997
Article: 21466 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: don@madrigal.clari.net (Don Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: XYZZY
Date: 27 Feb 1997 02:53:20 GMT
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Alas, Crowther was responsible for XYZZY and PLUGH.  I think I remember
him saying that he'd generated them at random, but I don't remember how
(or even if) he pronounced them.

For my part, I say "zizzy" and "ploog".  I'm actually rather emphatic
about the latter, since it's supposed to be said in a hollow voice.
I've heard some people pronounce it "plug", "pluh", or even "pluff",
and when I imagine the hollow voice trying to say those I keep thinking
the poor voice is going to break down laughing...  (A hollow laugh,
naturally. :-)

On the other hand, PLOVER was my addition, and since it's keyed to the
name of the bird ("an emerald the size of a plover's egg!") it ought to
be pronounced like the bird.  But -- aha! -- being ignorant on the topic,
I always thought the bird's name was pronounced ploh-ver.  It wasn't
until I saw the discussion here that I thought to look up the word, and
found that both pluh-ver and ploh-ver are accepted, but pluh-ver is
apparently preferred.  Oh well.  But if you pronounce it pluh-ver, don't
blame me if the magic doesn't work!

	-- Don.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
-- Don Woods (don@clari.net)		        ClariNet provides on-line news.
-- http://www.clari.net/~don		        I provide personal opinions.
--


From graemecree@aol.com Sat Mar  1 15:36:09 MET 1997
Article: 21504 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: graemecree@aol.com (GraemeCree)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: XYZZY
Date: 1 Mar 1997 01:48:48 GMT
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>   Of course, XYZZY and PLUGH were not their invention. They came from 
>the original Adventure, which, of course, inspired the original mainframe

>Zork.

     Actually, early versions of Zork I explicitly acknowledged their debt
to Colossal Cave.  If I had my copy of The Ultimate Infocom Collection
handy (a CD-ROM archival backup I made that has every known version of all
the Infocom games) I could even tell you which ones.  Later versions
removed the reference, and it is not present in Version 88 (the one that
Activision distributes these days).


From giner@xp.psych.nyu.edu Tue Mar  4 09:57:19 MET 1997
Article: 21561 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Roger Giner-Sorolla <giner@xp.psych.nyu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: XYZZY
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 19:19:59 -0500
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The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychological
Association, revision IV-Z, defines "xyzzophrenia" as "a neurotic
syndrome common among adventure game commentators, characterized by
obsessional ideation focused upon apparently trivial points of usage."

Xyzzophrenia is often comorbid with other diagnoses, such as antisocial 
flaming disorder and pre-millennial syndrome.


Roger Giner-Sorolla          University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA
rsg3x@virginia.edu           Dept. of Psychology (Social)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Please, your Majesty," said the Knave, "I didn't write it, and they can't
prove I did: there's no name signed at the end."
"If you didn't sign it," said the King, "that only makes the matter worse.
You /must/ have meant some mischief, or else you'd have signed your name
like an honest man."   --  Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland



From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Mar  5 13:56:48 MET 1997
Article: 21587 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Message-ID: <erkyrathE6K1JH.LFw@netcom.com>
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JID (owls@best.com) wrote:
> In article <01bc28bd$d8a5b640$ce054e8c@slip.edvz.uni-linz.ac.at>, "Gunther
> Schmidl" <Gunther.Schmidl@jk.uni-linz.ac.at> wrote:

> >I think the best of Infocom's adventures was Zork: Zero. It's the longest
> >and definitely one of the most hilarious of them all (except HHGTTG and
> >LGOP).

> There's something to be said for that. I think it was really very
> brilliant how they basically took the same plot structure as their very
> first delightful Zork -- treasure hunt! -- and buried it in a massive,
> colorful, complicated plot chock-full of so many things that it simply
> begs to be played at LEAST once more.

Not by me. Complicated plot? It was a treasure hunt. Nothing fit 
together. Spellbreaker was a treasure hunt with some thematic consistency 
-- the elements symmetry. (Plus, the places you got to were pretty darn 
cool.)

Zork Zero had, er, a bunch of stuff. I just didn't care all that much.

> *endgame spoiler*













> 
> I have to say I actually got chills when the castle collapsed in on itself
> to produce the white house.

I thought it was cheesy as hell. An perfect example of tying things 
together *without* a good reason. It didn't resolve anything from Zork I; 
it was just, hey, let's put in a Zork I reference.

Very much the same feeling I had about the Infocom references in Zork 
Nemesis, in fact. (Which only demonstrates that an author can make a mess 
of his own work just as much as an outsider can. When I rant that 
Activision shouldn't be doing Zork sequels, I *don't* mean that if the 
original Infocom had written more Zork sequels, they would *necessarily* 
have been good...)

(What a terrible sentence.)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From foxglove@globalserve.net Thu Mar  6 13:08:29 MET 1997
Article: 21606 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Drone <foxglove@globalserve.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 16:11:57 -0500
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Julian Arnold wrote:
> 
> I don't know of any official (or unofficial) ranking anywhere.
> Obviously this would be much debated and always wrong anyway.  Let's
> look at the reader's scoreboard from SPAG 9:
> 

Seeing the ranking list posted here, it suddenly hit my why it has always 
seemed frustrating to read it. It's the order of it. If the point of the 
exercise is to rank games, then why aren't they ever, you know -- ranked?

Anyway I was annoyed enough when this occurred to me that I shuffled them 
myself:

>  Name                  Avg Sc  Chr  Puz  # Sc  Rlvt Ish       Notes:
>  ====                  ======  ===  ===  ====  ========       ======
> Trinity                 8.8    1.4  1.7    8     1-2    C_INF
> Arthur: Excalibur       8.6    1.8  1.7    1     4      C_INF
> Mind Forever Voyaging   8.5    1.4  0.6    4     5      C_INF
> Bureaucracy             8.3    1.8  1.6    3     5      C_INF
> Sherlock                8.2    1.5  1.6    2     4      C_INF
> Spellbreaker            8.2    1.2  1.8    4     2      C_INF
> Beyond Zork             8.1    1.5  2.0    3     5      C_INF
> Hitchhiker's Guide      8.0    1.6  1.6    5     5      C_INF
> Leather Goddesses       7.8    1.4  1.7    5     4      C_INF
> Plundered Hearts        7.8    1.4  1.3    2     4      C_INF
> Stationfall             7.6    1.6  1.6    5     5      C_INF
> Wishbringer             7.6    1.3  1.3    4     5-6    C_INF
> Planetfall              7.5    1.7  1.6    6     4      C_INF
> Suspended               7.5    1.3  1.2    4     8      C_INF
> Sorceror                7.3    0.6  1.6    5     2      C_INF
> Witness, The            7.2    1.7  1.2    5     1,3,9  C_INF
> Zork 0                  7.1    1.3  2.0    2     x      C_INF
> Lurking Horror, The     7.1    1.4  1.3    5     1,3    C_INF
> Enchanter               7.1    0.9  1.4    5     2      C_INF
> Shogun                  7.1    1.5  0.5    1     4      C_INF
> Ballyhoo                7.0    1.8  1.5    3     4      C_INF
> Deadline                7.0    1.3  1.4    4     x      C_INF
> Starcross               7.0    1.1  1.3    5     1      C_INF
> Infidel                 7.0         1.4    7     1-2    C_INF
> Journey                 6.9    1.3  0.8    1     5      C_INF
> Border Zone             6.7    1.4  1.4    4     4      C_INF
> Cutthroats              6.4    1.4  1.2    5     1      C_INF
> Zork 2                  6.4    0.8  1.5    7     1-2    C_INF
> Suspect                 6.2    1.3  1.2    2     4      C_INF
> Zork 3                  6.1    0.6  1.4    5     1-2    C_INF
> Zork 1                  6.0    0.7  1.5    9     1-2    C_INF
> Moonmist                5.9    1.4  1.3    5     1      C_INF
> Hollywood Hijinx        5.7    1.0  1.5    4     x      C_INF
> Seastalker              5.5    1.1  1.0    4     4      C_INF
> Nord and Bert           4.8    0.5  1.0    2     4      C_INF
> 
> Phew!  Must be bored tonight.
> 

Me too.

Drone.
-- 
"Ah, the drone," says Whistler. "A drone is just an agent for unseen interests. 
An empty vessel. I don't know how it came to be. 'It's barely alive,' was all 
you told me."
--
                                      foxglove@globalserve.net
--


From daly@PPD.Kodak.COM Sat Mar  8 16:07:18 MET 1997
Article: 21648 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: daly@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: 6 Mar 1997 15:17:50 GMT
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In article <19970306022800.VAA22730@ladder01.news.aol.com> graemecree@aol.com (GraemeCree) writes:
>
>     At the risk of sounding stupid, I never understood why your character
>spends the whole game running all over Zork trying to find items to avoid
>the curse of Megaboz, only to find at the end that he's actually made it
>possible for the curse to be fullfilled, and doesn't resent being played
>for a sucker all that time.  True, he was primarily in it for the money,
>and he ends up being rewarded in the end, albiet differently than he
>expected, but it would still make most people feel rather foolish.  

I thought that the curse would result in the destruction of the
kingdom, not just the line of rulers.  I envisioned all of the cities
disappearing, people killed, all of that, which was spared when I
finished the game successfully.

>I mean
>even the parchment that Megaboz "accidentally" says that the curse will be
>stopped rather than fulfilled if the player completes the mission.

To play Devil's Advocate, isn't a fulfilled curse "stopped"?  In the
sense that a curse is a threat of a certain action, the threat is
removed if the action is performed.  Hmmm.

>     Are we supposed to believe that if your character had failed, then
>the curse would have ended, leaving Wurb Flathead still in power and the
>G.U.E. intact?

Was not the G.U.E left intact?  The documentation in Zork 2 indicates 
that the cities were still populated in 948, although the areas that
the Adventurer explores seem to be largely ruins.  Perhaps the
underground sections of the Empire were abandoned, but the G.U.E is
far more extensive than the stuff that Dimwit Flathead added during
his reign.

-Matthew
--
Matthew Daly       I feel that if a person has problems communicating
mwdaly@kodak.com   the very least he can do is to shut up - Tom Lehrer

My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, of course.


From d91frera@ida.liu.se Sun Mar  9 16:59:48 MET 1997
Article: 21704 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: d91frera@ida.liu.se (FReDRiK RaMSBeRG (WILdcARD))
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Playing Infocom games on C64
Date: 7 Mar 1997 14:51:34 GMT
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bg132@torfree.net (Jon Therriault) writes:

>I recently picked up a new/used C64 and had a chance to play a couple of 
>old Infocom favs on it (LGOP, THHGTTG).  What really amused me was how I 
>had forgotten the little clicks made when you were typing, and how much I 
>missed it!  I've played Infocom games on my DOS box (LTOI1) and now I 
>realize what was lacking!

>Who'd have thought those clicks would be so significant?!  Hearing them 
>took me back to when I first played the games, and that made the mood a 
>whole lot more fun.

>Anybody else think it would be nice to have the new interpreters have a 
>"click" option? ;>

Now, this is a good idea! I'm currently in a team developing a game. I had
started the game hundreds of times at various stages, on my Sparc-20
workstation, in a neat 120x60 character window with proportional black
characters on white background, on a 20" screen. As I made a test version,
I used Jzexe to make it an executable with Jzip included. When I launched it,
with 80x25 (can be set to 80x50, but why would I?) crude fixed-width
characters, and the classical light-blue on dark-blue colors, I was amazed at
the effect. For the first time, it seemed like a "real" game, with that
Infocom feeling. However, it was still too fast, so I've switched to playing
Z-files on the Macintosh;) (Yes, I know, there _are_ fast Macintosh's as
well. Mine isn't one of them.). Using Andrew Plotkin's excellent MaxZip, it
took me less than a minute to change the colors and fonts to at least heavily
resemble my good old Commodore 64. Ah, home again...

The next thing would be a C-1541 emulator. Outside emulator, that is. I want
the sound of the spinning disk and the head switching tracks, and of course
the green and red LED's. Then, if an interpreter had support for this device,
which could retail for under $200, they could pretend to be reading from the
disk, wait for a while, spinning the disk if you are about to get a new
response, and print slowly. Also, it could take a minute or two to load the
story. That's the time you need to find the map you've started on, find a
place to put your tea jug where it is at least less likely to spill out over
the keyboard when you hit it, and prepare mentally for playing. What do you
say, Toshiba, can you do it? I wouldn't mind simple, sampled sound.

/Fredrik
--
Fredrik Ramsberg, d91frera@und.ida.liu.se, http://www-und.ida.liu.se/~d91frera
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want to make it perfectly clear that I can't say I don't think people who
aren't avoiding using too many negations aren't putting things clearly enough.


From adam@flagstaff.princeton.edu Sun Mar  9 17:01:05 MET 1997
Article: 21712 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: adam@flagstaff.princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: XYZZY
Date: 7 Mar 1997 16:52:02 GMT
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In article <DON.97Mar7042035@madrigal.clari.net>,
Don Woods <don@madrigal.clari.net> wrote:
>Geez, what's so hard to believe?  I have to exist _somewhere_, don't I? :-)
>But you actually have a friend of mine to thank for mentioning the "xyzzy"
>discussion to me; I don't normally browse this newsgroup.

Well, please stick around.

Do you know if Will Crowther is on line anywhere?  I've been kicking around
an idea for a paper, that goes back to the naming of parts of the Flint
Ridge Cave System by Stephen Bishop, takes a look at the connection efforts
of the Crowthers and others in the 60s and 70s, and then talks about the
influence of technical caving language and culture (e.g. The "room," the
"dome," the "staircase," and the ubiquitous compass) on those parts of
Adventure that aren't a cave simulation and then on text adventures in
general.  My thesis is that much of the flavor of text adventures comes
>from a misreading of terms.  That is, when a caver says, "dome" what he
means is "naturally arched ceiling."  What I, and I suspect most non-caving
people, imagine is a room with finished stone walls and a hemispherical
dome on the top.  It is this cross-pollination that has proved
extraordinarily fruitful in terms of defining the genre and giving a
certain feel to the early dungeon-crawl-find-the-treasures game and then
propagating out to all the other genres of IF that still retain many of the
original conventions.

Which brings me to my question to you: did you read Crowther's descriptions
of "rooms" in Colossal Cave as a caver, or did you have in mind something
like someone familiar with Tolkien but not with caves?  That is, "rooms" as
a product of artifice rather than erosion?

Adam

-- 
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | adam@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928


From erkyrath@netcom.com Sun Mar  9 17:17:18 MET 1997
Article: 21698 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
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Oh, I'll play.

Favorite: Trinity, AMFV, Spellbreaker, Beyond Zork

Least interesting: Hollywood Hijinx

Never bothered to play: Moonmist (On the Apple II, running off a 
5.25" floppy, this was unplayably slow. Never got back to it.)

Most disappointing sequel: Stationfall, Zork Zero

Best story: Ya know, I might just nominate Wishbringer. Trinity was too 
surreal to actually have a plot. AMFV, much as I liked it, was a lecture. :)

And finally.... I never liked Floyd all *that* much. He was ok. But the 
closing scene of Planetfall, from the miniaturizer to the chase scene -- 
that was *great*. 

--Z





-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From n9641343@statler.cc.wwu.edu Sun Mar  9 17:26:25 MET 1997
Article: 21687 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Matthew Murray <n9641343@statler.cc.wwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 09:16:16 -0800
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On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Andrew Plotkin wrote:

> And finally.... I never liked Floyd all *that* much. He was ok. But the 
> closing scene of Planetfall, from the miniaturizer to the chase scene -- 
> that was *great*. 

	Add me to that particular list...  I never really cared for 
Floyd, either.  I think what Steve Meretzky needed to do with him that he 
never really did is integrate him in with the story in a major way.  He 
always seemed extremely superfluous to me.  And, as cute as he was and 
all that, for the most part, he just got in the way, and with the 
relationship between Floyd and the player's character just not being 
built up very much, I never quite got out of him what I felt I was 
supposed to...

===============================================================================
      Matthew Murray - n9641343@cc.wwu.edu - http://www.wwu.edu/~n9641343
===============================================================================
               The script calls for fusing and using our smarts,
                And greatness can come of the sum of our parts.
           From now on, I'm with you--and with you is where I belong!

                        -David Zippel, City of Angels
===============================================================================



From n9641343@statler.cc.wwu.edu Sun Mar  9 17:31:59 MET 1997
Article: 21711 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Matthew Murray <n9641343@statler.cc.wwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:27:21 -0800
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On 9 Mar 1997, Chris Lang wrote:

> Add me to that particular list...  I never really cared for 
> >Floyd, either.  I think what Steve Meretzky needed to do with him that 
> he 
> >never really did is integrate him in with the story in a major way.  He 
> 
> >always seemed extremely superfluous to me.  And, as cute as he was and 
> >all that, for the most part, he just got in the way, and with the 
> >relationship between Floyd and the player's character just not being 
> >built up very much, I never quite got out of him what I felt I was 
> >supposed to...
> 
>      One point you've never specified when you brought this up before: Is 
> it that you don't think the concept of the 'comic sidekick' works in a 
> computer game, or is it that you don't think the concept of Floyd 
> specifically works in a computer game?

	I don't think the character of Floyd works in Planetfall.  First 
of all, he's tragically underused.  If he is going to be a "major" part 
of the game, I would like to see him be a major part of the game.  He is 
only used to solve two or three puzzles, puzzles which could have been 
written with only minor changes to have them be solved by the player, and 
probably would have been stronger.  The best puzzle Floyd is involved in 
is the radiation lab one--I wanted to see more like that.  I wanted to 
see Floyd do stuff that, for reasons of biology, your "human" character 
could not.  I wanted Floyd to be vital to the game, instead of just a 
tag-along, which, for most intents, and purposes, is all he was.  For 
everything he actually did, there were numerous things he didn't do, and 
I don't think three puzzles really justifies the inclusion of Floyd as a 
character in the game.  (Especially since, as a character, he isn't very 
well-developed.)
	If Steve Meretzky had gone further with the character, and actually made 
him a deep "person", truly and utterly saddened by what happened to the 
complex, etc., then I might have liked him better.  As such, I liked him 
much better in Stationfall--he seemed a deeper, richer character in that 
game, but further development still might have maked me feel something 
other than what I felt when the puzzles in that game requires you to kill 
him.  (That should have been a big, spotlit moment, but was relegated to 
almost no importance at all.)  I don't think Steve Meretzky knew exactly 
what to do with Floyd--after all, look what happens if you pick Rex or 
Helen.  (That aspect of Stationfall always really bothered me, too--if 
the only robot the game will let you pick is Floyd, why bother having 
three from which to choose?)

>      Granted, a lot of Floyd's gags get repetitive (repeated several 
> times during one game session randomly), and tend to wear thin with 

	That never really bothered me that much...

> repetition, and granted Floyd more often than not would prefer playing 
> games than just following whatever orders you give him (if you want 

	That never really bothered me either--I considered that part of 
the character.  What I resented is that, for the most part, you never 
needed to use him for much of anything really important at all.

> robots that follow any command you give them whenever possible, try 
> Suspended), but he redeems himself by providing help to the player 
> (though in Planetfall, he's really only absolutely necessary for two or 
> three puzzles; otherwise, you can give an item or two to him to lighten 
> your load), and by providing company, as adventure game quests do tend to 
> be lonely (the Zork trilogy adventurer travels alone, as does the 
> Enchanter trilogy's mage, and Starcross' protagonist). Most tend to think 
> the character of Floyd works, and adds much to the story of Planetfall. 
> Though that is strictly a matter of opinion. 

	I think Floyd could have added a lot to Planetfall, if he had 
been used as a symbol of the dead people that once inhabited Resida.  But 
Floyd had little to do with them.  They built him and programmed him--I 
wanted to see more of them in him.  I wanted Floyd to be a constant 
reminder that the world around me--and him--was essentially dead.  I 
wanted the fact that he was the last inhabitant on the planet played up.  
I wanted Floyd to deal with that.  (Of course, later events in the game 
prove this wrong, but for the most of the game, that is the assumption 
you need to make.)  But, except for occasional, random exerpts, there 
just wasn't much in the way of that in the game.

>    Second question: Do you think Planetfall would have worked better if 
> it had built up a 'lonely' atmosphere like Infidel, and had no one to 
> keep the stranded ensign company?

	I can see it working either way...  If Floyd had been better 
developed, I wouldn't have minded, nor would I have if he had been 
introduced really, really late in the game.  (In that case, though, the 
entire game would need to be substantially restructured.)  But, the game 
could have worked well as a solo game, too, though Infidel is, as you 
say, a prime example of this.  The difference is that that game DOES 
manage to get this across.  Even Stationfall does, to a better degree, 
and, as mentioned, I think Floyd works better in Stationfall.  He has 
more to do, plays a larger role, and just plain isn't in the way so 
much.  But, despite improvements in his character between the two games, 
I still think Steve Meretzky needed to focus and decide on what he wanted 
the character of Floyd to really be about.

===============================================================================
      Matthew Murray - n9641343@cc.wwu.edu - http://www.wwu.edu/~n9641343
===============================================================================
               The script calls for fusing and using our smarts,
                And greatness can come of the sum of our parts.
           From now on, I'm with you--and with you is where I belong!

                        -David Zippel, City of Angels
===============================================================================



From graemecree@aol.com Sun Mar  9 17:47:48 MET 1997
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From: graemecree@aol.com (GraemeCree)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: 8 Mar 1997 23:12:51 GMT
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>I thought that the curse would result in the destruction of the
>kingdom, not just the line of rulers.  I envisioned all of the cities
>disappearing, people killed, all of that, which was spared when I
>finished the game successfully.

     If that were the case, Megaboz would be angry with you at the end,
rather than happy.

>To play Devil's Advocate, isn't a fulfilled curse "stopped"?  In the
>sense that a curse is a threat of a certain action, the threat is
>removed if the action is performed.  Hmmm.

     Yes.  To be precise, the parchment says "halted" rather than stopped,
but you could make the same argument even there.

>Was not the G.U.E left intact?  The documentation in Zork 2 indicates 
>that the cities were still populated in 948, although the areas that
>the Adventurer explores seem to be largely ruins.  Perhaps the
>underground sections of the Empire were abandoned, but the G.U.E is
>far more extensive than the stuff that Dimwit Flathead added during
>his reign.

     To be more precise, the mages tell Dimwit, "We have delayed its [the
curses] effects for 94 years, but after that time, this castle, in fact,
all the eastlands -- will be destroyed."
     At the end of the game, Megaboz says, "The Great Underground Empire
is no more, but Quendor remains.  Quendor referred to both the eastlands
and the westlands.  The westlands are definitely still inhabited after
Zork 0, but the eastlands seem pretty desolate.  Since the underground
portions of the empire were all in the eastlands, it seems like the curse
was fulfilled to a T.
     However, he also says, "As promised by decree, half the wealth of the
kingdom is yours!"
     So, things are a bit confusing.  The destruction of both the castle
and the eastlands were a part of the curse, as was the death of the 12
Flatheads.  But the money was promised to the one who could THWART the
curse and prevent the destruction.  There are a couple of possibilities.
     One could be that by your actions, the eastlands were saved, but the
castle was still destroyed.  There is nothing in the game to suggest this,
but it's possible.  The eastlands still seem to be uninhabited afterwards,
but the westlands and Antharia seem okay.
     There may be a way to tie all this together so that it makes sense,
but in any case, the answer is certainly not obvious, nor is the
difficulty addressed by the game at all.  This takes away from my
enjoyment of the game to a certain extent, although I still liked it quite
a bit.



From cleofax@javanet.com Sun Mar  9 20:57:03 MET 1997
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From: cleofax@javanet.com (Russ Bryan)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:00:09 -0500
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Might as well.

A TRS-80 with Zork I accounted for two years' worth of winter recesses in
eighth grade, so I have to love it because it brought me into the genre and
taught me a little something about patience and a lot about problem
solving.[1]

Suspended was the next game I tackled (Apple ][+), but I didn't get around
to solving it until last year.  I'd really like to see it implemented with
a GUI or at least keyboard shortcuts to choose the robot you're commanding. 
Give each robot its own status window.  Although the concept is wonderful,
the inevitable clumsiness of its interface barely allows Suspended into my
top 10.

Spellbreaker sucked me in like no other text adventure has.  I enjoyed
Enchanter and Sorceror (top 10, each of them, but Enchanter places higher),
but Spellbreaker was creatively more satisfying than any Infocom game I've
played.  If the twelve-cube puzzle hadn't forced me to go to the hints this
would be my favorite game.  Incidentally, I consider the Enchanter series
as a whole to be better than the Zorks.

As much as I enjoyed the Enchanter series, A Mind Forever Voyaging beats
them.  It had a profound impact on my own writing style, and is the reason
why I know a characters' favorite color even if it never gets mentioned in
the story.

Trinity gets the top position, and is always the first game I recommend to
friends wondering why I'm playing a text adventure on a computer that can
display xx,xxx polygons per second.  Trinity was also the first game I
solved without hints, so I guess I've got a soft spot for it.


Zork II, Planetfall and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy all make the list
as well, in that order.

This article will function as a logic problem.  Can you list my ten
favorite games, in order?

 Russ

[1] I'm surprised we haven't dicussed the educational possibilities of text
adventures before, but I feel I learned a lot from Zork I (although Zork II
was the better game).  I plan to encourage my kids to play text adventures
as soon as they can read.


From avrom@Turing.Stanford.EDU Mon Mar 10 12:58:52 MET 1997
Article: 21733 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: avrom@Turing.Stanford.EDU (Avrom Faderman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: 9 Mar 1997 16:33:56 -0800
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In article <33221573.6F1F@acpub.duke.edu>,
Adam Cadre  <adamc@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>Andreas Hoppler wrote:
>> 
>> Favourite Infocom games: Trinity, Lurking Horror, Planetfall
>> Least favorite: AMFV, Suspect
>                  ^^^^(!)
>
>How come you didn't like AMFV?

Everyone but Andreas seems to be putting AMFV in their very top.

I didn't _dislike_ AMFV, but I was disappointed with it, and I'm
inclined to think it's vastly overrated.

What disappointed me about the game was that there was so much hype
about it--it was supposed to be this unbelievably deep work, great
literature on the PC--and it just wasn't.  It was a nicely told,
well-written story.

If I remember correctly, Infocom billed it as "...serious science
fiction...a la '1984.'"  We already _eave_ a _1984_; we don't need
another one.  With the exception of the sentient computer as main
character, which was interesting but oddly unconnected from the feel
of the rest of the story, AMFV as fiction came off as a fairly
formulaic bit of dysutopian fiction, and one that didn't seem to _do_
any of the things that good dysutopian fiction does, at least for me.
I got no new insight about our real society or human nature out of
AMFV.

Maybe this is a pretty high standard to hold a computer game to.  But
AMFV has been treated as more than a computer game, and because of the
relative lack of puzzles, I think it needs to have virtues beyond
those one expects from a computer game to be considered great.

Good, AMFV certainly is.  Infocom's best work?  I don't think so.  My
money's still on Trinity.  By a good margin.  All it's cracked up to
be?  Not in a million years.

-Avrom







From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Mon Mar 10 13:01:12 MET 1997
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: A Mind Forever Voyaging reconsidered
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Avrom Faderman wrote:
> 
> I didn't _dislike_ AMFV, but I was disappointed with it, and I'm
> inclined to think it's vastly overrated.
> 
> What disappointed me about the game was that there was so much hype
> about it--it was supposed to be this unbelievably deep work, great
> literature on the PC--and it just wasn't.  It was a nicely told,
> well-written story.
> 
> If I remember correctly, Infocom billed it as "...serious science
> fiction...a la '1984.'"  We already _eave_ a _1984_; we don't need
> another one.  With the exception of the sentient computer as main
> character, which was interesting but oddly unconnected from the feel
> of the rest of the story, AMFV as fiction came off as a fairly
> formulaic bit of dysutopian fiction, and one that didn't seem to _do_
> any of the things that good dysutopian fiction does, at least for me.
> I got no new insight about our real society or human nature out of
> AMFV.
> 
> Maybe this is a pretty high standard to hold a computer game to.  But
> AMFV has been treated as more than a computer game, and because of the
> relative lack of puzzles, I think it needs to have virtues beyond
> those one expects from a computer game to be considered great.
> 
> Good, AMFV certainly is.  Infocom's best work?  I don't think so.  My
> money's still on Trinity.  By a good margin.  All it's cracked up to
> be?  Not in a million years.

Hmm.

Taking AMFV in the context of dystopian fiction rather than of
interactive fiction, I certainly see your point.  It's no 1984, no
MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE, not even a BRAVE NEW WORLD.  In fact, speaking
as an AMFV advocate, I'd say that if it were a traditional story I
wouldn't like it very much.  I think the key is who's in control of
the "camera," so to speak.  There've been a number of critics of the
medium of film who object to being "told" what to look at -- what you
see on the screen is what the director wants you to see -- and it
occurs to me that the same is true for traditional fiction: what you
read is what the author wants you to read.  It was the =lack= of this
kind of "manipulation," if you want to call it that, that made AMFV
work for me.  If I were reading a story and came across the line,
"Perry nervously walked through the zoo.  He passed a sign that read
'MONKEY TORTURING: 2 PM IN THE PRIMATE CAGE.'" I'd probably groan and
feel I was being lectured to.  But when I played the game and =chose=
to walk through the zoo -- Steve Meretzky didn't force me to go there --
and =chose= to look at the sign -- Steve Meretzky didn't force me to
look at it -- and saw that message, it was quite chilling.  TRINITY,
being much "narrower," made me feel like I was being led by the hand
through the story and thus didn't succeed for me in the same way --
though I still very much enjoyed it.

To condense this rant a little, I guess I'm saying that, for me, the
novelty of the immersive experience more than made up for the lack of
philosophical depth, and the fact that agency was placed in my hands
precluded me from feeling like I was being lectured to (the other
objection to it I've come across.)  As for the lack of puzzles: not
being a puzzle person, this was, for me, not a fault to be made up
for but a genuine asset.  But I realize I'm in the minority on this
one.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Durham, NC
 http://www.duke.edu/~adamc


From mlerner@minerva.cis.yale.edu Mon Mar 10 13:11:32 MET 1997
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From: mlerner@minerva.cis.yale.edu(Marcy)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: 9 Mar 1997 18:46:43 GMT
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I suppose I'm one of those players who prefer to get swept up in a storyline 
- and I find that I tend to have a much easier time solving the puzzles in 
such a game, because it's a cinch to place myself in the situation.  

The best of these games is A Mind Forever Voyaging - the few puzzles barely 
*seemed* like puzzles, because at the point they occurred I knew exactly what 
to do, just because Perry Simm, as a character, was so wonderfully 
constructed.  I even hesitate to call AMFV a game; I think of it as a work of 
fiction, and one of my favorites.

Trinity is another superb game that faithfully creates an eerie and yet 
believable world, and unfolds in a spellbinding manner.  I solved this one 
without any hints, because the narrative enveloped me so completely.

Stationfall also does a very fine job of creating a structure and good 
characters.  I think I can still remember the blueprints of that station!

Then there are games which, if less brilliantly involving, are fun to play if 
you get the joke, if you can insinuate yourself into them - Plundered Hearts 
and Leather Goddesses of Phobos are good examples of this genre.  Oh, and 
Lurking Horror is very cute too.

I suppose it's just me, but Enchanter bored the snot out of me.  The 
detective games drag like no one's business.  Shogun just pissed me off (but 
then I've never read the novel.)



From MKST21C@prodigy.com Mon Mar 10 13:12:08 MET 1997
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From: MKST21C@prodigy.com (Chris Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 00:21:42 GMT
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Most disappointing sequel: Stationfall, Zork Zero
>
>     Really?  What was wrong with Stationfall?  And shirley, er...surely,

>the most disappointing sequel has to be Leather Goddesses of Phobos 2.
>
     I think one of the disappointments with Stationfall is based on the 
misleading ending of Planetfall, which implies that the still-unresolved 
bits such as the helicopter and such would be used in the sequel. Instead,
 the only sequel we get is set in a completely new setting, and of the 
items found, only the paddleball set is used (and only by Floyd, never by 
the player, and never for solving puzzles).
   Stationfall has a much stronger storyline than Planetfall, though the 
character of Plato could have been developed more, and the end game is 
sort of anticlimatic (the dramatic intentions are obvious, but I don't 
think it really works in *interactive* fiction). It's also grimmer than 
Planetfall in many ways, though I'll say no more to avoid spoiling it for 
people. However, all in all, it is a worthy successor despite its 
shortcomings.
   As for Leather Goddesses of Phobos 2, I haven't actually played it, so 
I can't really say much. However, from what I've heard, it's not much 
better than Activision's 'Return to Zork'...

                                           Chris Lang




From don@madrigal.clari.net Mon Mar 10 13:14:31 MET 1997
Article: 21758 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: don@madrigal.clari.net (Don Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: XYZZY
Date: 10 Mar 1997 09:18:43 GMT
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adam@flagstaff.princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton) writes:
> Do you know if Will Crowther is on line anywhere?  I've been kicking around
> an idea for a paper...

I have an address for him, which might be current, but I hesitate to
post it in an open forum without his permission.  I'll forward your
paper topic to him and he can respond if he wishes.

> Which brings me to my question to you: did you read Crowther's descriptions
> of "rooms" in Colossal Cave as a caver, or did you have in mind something
> like someone familiar with Tolkien but not with caves?  That is, "rooms" as
> a product of artifice rather than erosion?

Sort of a cross, I expect.  I certainly didn't think of crafted rooms,
and especially not for things like "domes".  However, not being a caver
myself, I expect that my idea of a "room" is still off the mark.  I
picture it as a large mostly empty area (or volume), where the walls,
floor and ceiling are still rough natural rock, but where the passages
in and out are clearly delineated.  In reality, I assume that "rooms"
simply narrow down into passages and there's no clear dividing line for
when you leave the room and enter the passage.

Of course, the Tolkienesque view isn't entirely out of place, either.
Since there are treasures, and dwarves, and so forth, it makes some
sense to think of at least parts of the cave as being carved by design
instead of by nature.  But my own mental picture is mostly natural,
with perhaps a tendency to think of certain "passages" (e.g. between
the Hall of the Mountain King and Y2) as being carved corridors.

	-- Don.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
-- Don Woods (don@clari.net)		        ClariNet provides on-line news.
-- http://www.clari.net/~don		        I provide personal opinions.
--
-- It is now pitch dark.
-- If you proceed you will likely fall into a pit.


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Mar 11 13:33:47 MET 1997
Article: 21776 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
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Matthew Amster-Burton (mamster@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> owls@best.com (JID) wrote:

> >My mother claims my ability and interest in math increased hugely after I
> >started playing the Zorks. Personally I'm inclined to doubt the former but
> >believe the latter; probably, I just realized that problem-solving could
> >be fun and rewarding, and once I applied it to the real world, whatever
> >ability I already had in math actually gained some use.

> And I would suggest that the former inevitably follows the latter.
> Would anyone argue that interest and achievement constitute a feedback
> loop that can operate as either a negative or positive one?

I wouldn't argue that statement, but I would claim it as nearly axiomatic.

> Let me make this hypothesis, unprovable of course:  playing text games
> greatly improved my troubleshooting skills, which made it easy to get
> computer-related work.  Possible?

Anything's possible. I don't think playing text games did anything for me 
directly, but it spurred a lot of my early practice at programming, 
because I was trying to write text games.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Mar 11 16:30:56 MET 1997
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
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Avrom Faderman (avrom@Turing.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> Everyone but Andreas seems to be putting AMFV in their very top.

> I didn't _dislike_ AMFV, but I was disappointed with it, and I'm
> inclined to think it's vastly overrated.

> What disappointed me about the game was that there was so much hype
> about it--it was supposed to be this unbelievably deep work, great
> literature on the PC--and it just wasn't.  It was a nicely told,
> well-written story.

Well, part of the reason I liked it so much is that it *was* a first. 
You recall I put it in my top list *and* said that it was "a lecture." 
But I'd never considered the possibility that a computer game could make 
a sustained point. And then, on top of that, it made its point using the 
techniques of IF, by letting you explore the scenarios yourself. It 
couldn't have been done before Infocom, and it wasn't done until Infocom 
saw the possibility in the tools from their own repertoire, and made it 
real. That impresses the hell out of me.

In much the same way, I still think Myst is one of the top graphical 
games. Even though I hated the story, and the interface has been imitated 
and improved a dozen ways, and the art has been surpassed many times. 
Originality counts.

(Please don't start listing all the technological lineage of Myst. 
I mean the originality of bringing together all those techniques in that 
way.)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From cdocdo@msn.com Tue Mar 11 18:47:34 MET 1997
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From: "-cdo-" <cdocdo@msn.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure
Subject: Re: infocom masterpieces in UK: good & bad news
Date: 11 Mar 1997 07:00:28 GMT
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Bill Hoggett <hoggett@airtime.co.uk> wrote in article 
> >b) that would cost 30 pounds sterling plus postage - ie 50 dollars! BAD
news.
> 
> >c) really recommended Lost Treasures vol 1 & 2 - which they had in stock
at
> >55 pounds sterling each ie 90 dollars each! GOOD & BAD news I suppose.

CDROMs Online sells all of these at prices more than a bit lower.

$21.99 for the Masterpieces, including shipping anywhere in the world,
including the UK of course.  We do remove the "dictionary sized box",
and send all contents (the jewel-boxed CDROM, an advertisement, and
an erratum sheet for Macintosh) to all orders shipped outside the USA.

$42.99 for either of the Lost Treasure sets, which include books,
maps, etc, and as you would expect, all shipping charges.

http://www.cdromsonline.com/infocom.htm
-cdo-



From lpsmith@rice.edu Wed Mar 12 09:50:40 MET 1997
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From: lpsmith@rice.edu (Lucian Paul Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Floyd (was: Re: Best original Infocom games?)
Date: 11 Mar 1997 22:52:01 GMT
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Matthew Murray (n9641343@statler.cc.wwu.edu) wrote:
: On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Andrew Plotkin wrote:

: > And finally.... I never liked Floyd all *that* much. He was ok. But the 
: > closing scene of Planetfall, from the miniaturizer to the chase scene -- 
: > that was *great*. 

: 	Add me to that particular list...  I never really cared for 
: Floyd, either.

For me, the defining moment in Floyd's existence was at the beginning of 
'Stationfall'.  I played it just after playing 'Planetfall'.  There's a 
robot pool with three robots, one of whom is Floyd.  Just to see what 
would happen, I decided to choose one of the other robots.  I did so, and 
Floyd got all teary,... call me sentimental, but I just could not leave 
the room with that other robot.  I couldn't do it!  I typed 'undo' 
immediately!  I presume that the other robot breaks down or something, 
but I don't think I'll ever be able to play through that game and find out.

-Lucian "Lucian" Smith


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Mar 12 09:51:21 MET 1997
Article: 21795 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
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Samuel DAF Barlow (sb6729@irix.bris.ac.uk) wrote:

> Is it me or is everyone underrating certain games?

Many people are rating certain games low. As to whether it's 
"underrating", well, the majority speaks for itself... :)

> Lurking Horror and Suspect seem to be vastly underpraised...Suspect was
> a marvellously atmospheric game - I spent days just wandering around the
> party; it did the "willing suspension of disbelief" thing really well..

I never liked the IF mysteries much (not as Infocom did them, anyway.) 
Deadline got points for originality, but not the others.

Mind you, I thought it was ok, up until the point where I got stuck for a 
year because I hadn't told the detective about the weather. What, he 
lives in the Batcave and never sees the sky except when he's on duty?

> Hollywood Hijinx was a great game too - not only did it have really
> *funny* *quirky* puzzles, but the atmosphere was done well and
> the game had a really unity about it.

Yeah, it had unity, but I didn't like what was unified.

> 	And why does everyone like STARCROSS - I found this game to be
> very bare and thought the silly MENSA-esque puzzles irritating.

I liked it because the environment was very rich (if not quite realistic) 
and the puzzles were well-integrated. (Really only the first and last 
scenes were "designed" puzzles -- designed by the aliens, I mean. 
Everything else fell out beautifully from physics, their imaginary 
physics, and the rules of life on the artifact.)

Also because the place had a *history* -- that's what I mean by "rich", I 
guess. A lot had gone on there, and more of it was implied than stated 
outright. Tangential puzzles, as it were, which had nothing to do with 
the parser or the game. What happened here?

Also because it was the first SF game I played, and again, originality 
counts. (Not so much originality in this case -- "Gee, let's invent 
science fiction!" -- but it was a nice change from the dungeon crawling.) 

>         # /# ##### /.... .                     . ....\ ##### # \#
>         #/ # #### /...       The One and Only      ...\ #### # /#

Er, I might humbly request that you lose a few inches off the .sig file.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From boutel1g@wcc.govt.nz Thu Mar 13 10:57:53 MET 1997
Article: 21834 of rec.games.int-fiction
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Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Message-ID: <01bc2f1f$ca56a960$09340a0a@SPAWN.wcc.govt.nz>
From: "Giles Boutel" <boutel1g@wcc.govt.nz>
Date: 13 Mar 97 08:57:58 NZST
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Samuel DAF Barlow <sb6729@irix.bris.ac.uk> wrote in article
<Pine.SGI.3.95q.970311131158.12317F-100000@irix.bris.ac.uk>...

> 	And why does everyone like STARCROSS - I found this game to be
> very bare and thought the silly MENSA-esque puzzles irritating.

Hmm, I liked starcross because the learning curve was so satisfying. For
example,the way the discs puzzle integrated itself into other puzzles made
solving them an exercise in lateral thinking. However bare the details are,
I can still remember most of the aliens and locations, despite having
played it over a decade ago. Bare details will often allow the imagination
more freedom. Admittedly the story was a cliche, and the puzzles
improbable, but in terms of puzzle structure, it was one of my favourites.

-Giles


From andreas.hoppler@logon.ch Thu Mar 13 10:58:01 MET 1997
Article: 21833 of rec.games.int-fiction
From: andreas.hoppler@logon.ch (Andreas Hoppler)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:52:18 +0100
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:21833

: _Spellbreaker_ was good, but I've never quite been able to finish it because I can't, even with 
: the aid of the walkthroughs and the Invisiclues, figure out how to solve the damn moving 
: rock/plain puzzle.

Before I'd started playing Spellbreaker, I'd come across a discussion of that 
problem in a book or newspaper (probably, it was Martin Gardner's column in 
Scientific American). I don't think I'd have solved it otherwise.

Quick solution follows:













Go the shortest way to the one 'diagonal' edge and follow it. Then, try to cut off 
the other stone. If you don't go on the diagonal line, you'll always stay at least 
1 away from the other stone.

-- Andreas


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Thu Mar 13 11:11:56 MET 1997
Article: 21829 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:56:39 -0500
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I don't normally use smilies, but I figured I'd better put them in
this time around so I don't sound like I'm scolding anyone.  Apologies
to those who, like me, tend to find smilies annoying.

Adam Dawes wrote:
> 
> I've recently been playing [AMFV], and can't say I'm too impressed
> with it either.
> 
> I spent *hours* and hours mapping the game, only to realise that most
> of the locations are totally superfluous.

Superfluous in what sense?  I mean, technically, all locations in all
IF are superfluous in that you don't have to play the game. :) If you
mean that you don't have to read the church pamphlets or visit the zoo
or go to the airport in order to "win," that's true -- but the point
is to explore the various "superfluous" locations and see how they
change over time and laugh/gasp/whatever.  AMFV doesn't really put much
stock in "winning" or "solving" in the same way a genuine puzzle game
does, which is a big part of why I like it so much.  It was the same
logic that led me to put a "win" verb in "I-0", so that if you're really
hellbent on winning, all you have to do is type "win", and you do.

> Part I took about 3 minutes to solve

There's that "solve" I was talking about.  Oh well -- at least you're
not one of these people that talks about "beating" games. :)

> and (once I'd worked out what on *earth* to do in Part II) this wasn't
> much more work

Ah ha, "work".  Yet another reason I liked AMFV: computer games are
a leisure time activity, and in =my= leisure time, I don't want to
work -- I want to play. :)

> (though I haven't actually been able to enter the 2081 segment yet,
> despite having provided suitable evidence about all the other years,
> the game still won't let me access 2081.. [sigh])
> 
> So unless something severely exciting happens in the last little bit
> of Part II, or in Part III, what is there to the game? Whilst I
> appreciate the scenery and the horrors that slowly dawn on you as the
> game progresses, this still seemed more suited to a story rather than
> a game.

Well, that's why AMFV merits the "interactive fiction" moniker in a
way that, say, SUSPENDED doesn't.  It's all a matter of taste: some
people prefer the challenge of solving puzzles to being drawn into
stories.  These people tend to make more than the $10,000 a year I
make as a grad student in literature. :)

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Durham, NC
 http://www.duke.edu/~adamc


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Mar 13 11:12:08 MET 1997
Article: 21831 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
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Adam Dawes (adam@darkside.demon.co.uk) wrote:

> So unless something severely exciting happens in the last little bit of Part
> II, or in Part III, what is there to the game? Whilst I appreciate the scenery
> and the horrors that slowly dawn on you as the game progresses, this still
> seemed more suited to a story rather than a game.

I consider AMFV a story rather than a game. This is what I like about it.

As I said, the story is conveyed very well by the interactive medium, and 
I don't think it would have worked as well in static fiction. Well, not 
the same way, anyhow.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From n9641343@statler.cc.wwu.edu Thu Mar 13 11:12:31 MET 1997
Article: 21838 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Matthew Murray <n9641343@statler.cc.wwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:30:48 -0800
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On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Andrew Plotkin wrote:

> Adam Dawes (adam@darkside.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> 
> > So unless something severely exciting happens in the last little bit of Part
> > II, or in Part III, what is there to the game? Whilst I appreciate the scenery
> > and the horrors that slowly dawn on you as the game progresses, this still
> > seemed more suited to a story rather than a game.
> 
> I consider AMFV a story rather than a game. This is what I like about it.
> 
> As I said, the story is conveyed very well by the interactive medium, and 
> I don't think it would have worked as well in static fiction. Well, not 
> the same way, anyhow.

	I completely agree--you don't play AMFV the way you would play a 
typical game because you can't.  It wasn't designed that way.  You need 
to have a different mindset.  If you look at all games as, "You do this, 
this, this, then this, then you win with this number of points," then 
AMFV will disappoint and, more than likely, frustrate you.  I was a 
little bit confused the first time I played it because there isn't a 
whole lot of direction to part II and beyond, until I realized that was 
the whole point of the game.  This is a game about exploration as opposed 
to a certain chain of events that must be completed in a specific way.  I 
think that's one reason its replay value is so high--you can play it many 
times (as I have) and do different things each time, exploring different 
things, finding new twists to the events in the game, reading a new 
description for a room you never saw before...  Most of that you can't do 
in most games, even Infocom games.  AMFV really gives you a lot of 
freedom in a lot of respects, and that, in addition to the brilliant 
style and story, was something I really liked.

===============================================================================
      Matthew Murray - n9641343@cc.wwu.edu - http://www.wwu.edu/~n9641343
===============================================================================
               The script calls for fusing and using our smarts,
                And greatness can come of the sum of our parts.
           From now on, I'm with you--and with you is where I belong!

                        -David Zippel, City of Angels
===============================================================================



From n9641343@statler.cc.wwu.edu Thu Mar 13 11:13:02 MET 1997
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From: Matthew Murray <n9641343@statler.cc.wwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:23:49 -0800
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On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Adam Dawes wrote:

> I spent *hours* and hours mapping the game, only to realise that most of the
> locations are totally superfluous. Part I took about 3 minutes to solve and
> (once I'd worked out what on *earth* to do in Part II) this wasn't much more
> work (though I haven't actually been able to enter the 2081 segment yet,
> despite having provided suitable evidence about all the other years, the game
> still won't let me access 2081.. [sigh])

	It's not a question of what evidence you produce, it's a question 
of how much time you spend in each of the various years.  If you stick 
around in 2071 for long enough, the next simulation will be possible.
	And, as for the locations being superfluous, it depends on your 
definition.  While you don't do a whole lot in most of the locations, I 
don't think there was a whole lot of waste in A Mind Forever Voyaging.  
It depends on what you're looking for, I guess.

> So unless something severely exciting happens in the last little bit of Part
> II, or in Part III, what is there to the game? Whilst I appreciate the scenery
> and the horrors that slowly dawn on you as the game progresses, this still
> seemed more suited to a story rather than a game.

	Um...  If all you are getting out of the game is "there's nothing 
to do in part II" or "so many locations are superfluous," then I think 
you're missing the point of the game.  Have you spent a lot of time in 
Library Mode?  Or just exploring the simulations?  There is more to the 
game in part III, and then in what comes after, but if you're not getting 
anything out of what happens in parts I and II, then you probably 
shouldn't even bother.  (Even though I think the end of this game has to 
qualify as one of the best ever.)

===============================================================================
      Matthew Murray - n9641343@cc.wwu.edu - http://www.wwu.edu/~n9641343
===============================================================================
               The script calls for fusing and using our smarts,
                And greatness can come of the sum of our parts.
           From now on, I'm with you--and with you is where I belong!

                        -David Zippel, City of Angels
===============================================================================



From adam@flagstaff.princeton.edu Mon Mar 17 15:41:45 MET 1997
Article: 21913 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: adam@flagstaff.princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Review of "Stiffy".  SPOILERS, OBSCENITY, and a GIANT WASTE OF TIME
Date: 16 Mar 1997 20:13:45 GMT
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Move over, _Space Aliens Laughed at My Cardigan_.  _The Incredibly Erotic
Adventures of Stiffy Makane_ has arrived.

First off, the administrivia.  It's (c) 1997, so it's new.  And it's by
Mark Ryan.  And it was apparently written by Mark when he was in eighth
grade, which explains a lot.  I guess.  What I can't figure out is why Mark
felt compelled to rerelease it.  Apparently--at least, this is my guess--he
ported it from (?) BASIC to AGT.  It's on ftp.gmd.de, currently in
/incoming/if-archive, probably soon in /if-archive/games/pc or something.

Now, I know what you're thinking: a *port*?  *To* AGT?  In *1997*?  Yeah,
well, it does make the game a little bit funnier, as in addition to an
absolutely atrocious game, the player must contend with an absolutely
atrocious parser.

All that aside, there is a certain compelling quality to the game.  I went
to the trouble of finding and bulding Agility so I could dump the game's
text and find the last two actions I was missing.

Now, I know it's not fair to pick on something someone wrote when he was
fourteen.  But I'm pretty confident that my Applesoft BASIC adventures
would stand up to _Stiffy_ pretty well.  This is easily the most amusingly
horrible work of IF I've ever seen.

There is obscenity below this point, so if you're a child, or you have one
reading over your shoulder, you'd probably better quit reading now.
Consider this the voluntary rating system in action.



The premise?  You are Stiffy Makane, and you desire to get laid.  Luckily,
Public Pussy Pamela (no, I am not making this up) is in one of the four
rooms of the game, and you can satiate your bestial urges on her.

Major spoilers below.  If, for some bizarre reason, you actually want to
play this game through, without any help (if you can find those last two
actions, you're a better man than I am), stop reading here.



There are a few things to recommend this game.  One is that, as you remove
Pamela's clothes, you have to keep holding them, or they teleport back onto
her.  However, that's nothing compared with the fact that you can *drop
your penis*.

Yes, that's right.  In this game, you can drop your erect penis on the
floor.  Check it out:

****
> drop penis
You feel highly embarrassed. You could have sworn you just heard
Pam giggle looking at your genitals.
You drop the big dick.

> look

Bedroom
You are in Pamela's bedroom! Hallelujah!
   Her mouth looks like a good place to put something!
   Public Pussy Pamela is here!
   Check out those hooters. Uuuuuhhhhhhhh!
   That area between her legs looks inviting.
   Your clothes are on the floor so you must be....NAKED!
   Your stiffy is big and greasy.

> take stiffy
You are now carrying the big dick.
****

The quality of the prose can be inferred from these brief samples
(personally, I find "Uuuuuuhhhhhhhh!" to be one of the most erotic words in
the English language).  The, er, climactic scenes are just as titillating.
And some of the object descriptions beggar belief:

****
> examine gun
BIG GUN KICK THE HELL OUTTA YOU!
****

We also have the usual AGT problem that there are certain actions you can
only do once, but when you try to do them a second time, you get the same
message, only with "You can't do that" tacked on at the end.  Viz:

****
> do pam
After much aggravation, you manage to get your phenomenal stiffy
inside the gates of heaven! You move in and out, faster and faster!
Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhahhhhhhhhhh! For some reason, Pam doesn't
respond. "What's wrong,baby?"You ask her."Nothing's wrong,
sugar,"she replies,"I just wish you'd get started!"
Sorry, you can't do that....
****

If ever there were a game begging to be MST3Ked, this is it.  It's got it
all.  Random "guess the syntax" and "guess whether or not this verb needs
an object," problems (KISS PAM is not the same as KISS MOUTH.  The second
is correct).  A severely limited vocabulary.  Four, count them, four
locations.  All of the puzzles are basically of the "guess the verb" type,
except they include inventory management, since you can't do Pamela unless
you're holding her clothes (in itself, a sort of amusing image).  And then,
to top it all, there's exactly one way to win the game.

You guessed it.  SHOOT PAMELA WITH GUN.  (SHOOT PAMELA doesn't work.)

This game can only be recommended from the same camp viewpoint that enjoyed
"Detective" or "Cardigan."  From that viewpoint, well, er, maybe it's not
too much of a waste of your ten minutes, if you weren't doing anything
anyway.  I guess.

Even the Super Stiffy Secret--the message you get if you get *all* the
points is, well, to be frank, stolen from Kentucky Fried Movie.  Mutato
nomine, et de Big Jim Slade fabula narratur.

Here's the walkthrough, in as non-offensive language as I could manage:

E
LOOK IN WINDOW
W
N
N
TAKE SKIRT
TAKE PANTIES
TAKE BLOUSE
TAKE BRA
REMOVE CLOTHES
KISS MOUTH
FEEL BREASTS
FEEL VAGINA
KISS BREASTS
DO BREASTS
KISS VAGINA
69
BLOWJOB
DO PAM
SHOOT PAMELA WITH GUN

I really hope Mark Ryan grew up and met an actual woman.  However, his
rerelease of this game bodes ill for that wish.

I leave you with one final clip from this game's scintillating prose:

****
> feel hooters
HONK,HONK!
****

Adam




-- 
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | adam@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928


From joe.mason@tabb.com Tue Mar 18 10:27:02 MET 1997
Article: 21930 of rec.games.int-fiction
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Subject: Re: XYZZY
From: joe.mason@tabb.com (Joe Mason)
Message-ID: <66.7586.1782@tabb.com>
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:03:00 -0500
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"Re: XYZZY", declared Don Woods from the Vogon ship:

DW>Geez, what's so hard to believe?  I have to exist _somewhere_, don't
DW>I? :-) But you actually have a friend of mine to thank for mentioning
DW>the "xyzzy" discussion to me; I don't normally browse this newsgroup.

What gets me is, Dave Lebling of Zork fame posted an answer as well, and 
I don't think anybody noticed. :-)

Now that you're here, I wonder if we could get your opinion.  There was 
a thread on rec.arts.int-fiction (maybe it was here too) on a new port 
of Adventure: "The Annotated Adventure".  The idea was to get

 CMPQwk 1.42 9550 Vegetarians eat vegetables-Beware of humanitarians


From adam@flagstaff.princeton.edu Tue Mar 18 17:16:53 MET 1997
Article: 21913 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: adam@flagstaff.princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Review of "Stiffy".  SPOILERS, OBSCENITY, and a GIANT WASTE OF TIME
Date: 16 Mar 1997 20:13:45 GMT
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Move over, _Space Aliens Laughed at My Cardigan_.  _The Incredibly Erotic
Adventures of Stiffy Makane_ has arrived.

First off, the administrivia.  It's (c) 1997, so it's new.  And it's by
Mark Ryan.  And it was apparently written by Mark when he was in eighth
grade, which explains a lot.  I guess.  What I can't figure out is why Mark
felt compelled to rerelease it.  Apparently--at least, this is my guess--he
ported it from (?) BASIC to AGT.  It's on ftp.gmd.de, currently in
/incoming/if-archive, probably soon in /if-archive/games/pc or something.

Now, I know what you're thinking: a *port*?  *To* AGT?  In *1997*?  Yeah,
well, it does make the game a little bit funnier, as in addition to an
absolutely atrocious game, the player must contend with an absolutely
atrocious parser.

All that aside, there is a certain compelling quality to the game.  I went
to the trouble of finding and bulding Agility so I could dump the game's
text and find the last two actions I was missing.

Now, I know it's not fair to pick on something someone wrote when he was
fourteen.  But I'm pretty confident that my Applesoft BASIC adventures
would stand up to _Stiffy_ pretty well.  This is easily the most amusingly
horrible work of IF I've ever seen.

There is obscenity below this point, so if you're a child, or you have one
reading over your shoulder, you'd probably better quit reading now.
Consider this the voluntary rating system in action.



The premise?  You are Stiffy Makane, and you desire to get laid.  Luckily,
Public Pussy Pamela (no, I am not making this up) is in one of the four
rooms of the game, and you can satiate your bestial urges on her.

Major spoilers below.  If, for some bizarre reason, you actually want to
play this game through, without any help (if you can find those last two
actions, you're a better man than I am), stop reading here.



There are a few things to recommend this game.  One is that, as you remove
Pamela's clothes, you have to keep holding them, or they teleport back onto
her.  However, that's nothing compared with the fact that you can *drop
your penis*.

Yes, that's right.  In this game, you can drop your erect penis on the
floor.  Check it out:

****
> drop penis
You feel highly embarrassed. You could have sworn you just heard
Pam giggle looking at your genitals.
You drop the big dick.

> look

Bedroom
You are in Pamela's bedroom! Hallelujah!
   Her mouth looks like a good place to put something!
   Public Pussy Pamela is here!
   Check out those hooters. Uuuuuhhhhhhhh!
   That area between her legs looks inviting.
   Your clothes are on the floor so you must be....NAKED!
   Your stiffy is big and greasy.

> take stiffy
You are now carrying the big dick.
****

The quality of the prose can be inferred from these brief samples
(personally, I find "Uuuuuuhhhhhhhh!" to be one of the most erotic words in
the English language).  The, er, climactic scenes are just as titillating.
And some of the object descriptions beggar belief:

****
> examine gun
BIG GUN KICK THE HELL OUTTA YOU!
****

We also have the usual AGT problem that there are certain actions you can
only do once, but when you try to do them a second time, you get the same
message, only with "You can't do that" tacked on at the end.  Viz:

****
> do pam
After much aggravation, you manage to get your phenomenal stiffy
inside the gates of heaven! You move in and out, faster and faster!
Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhahhhhhhhhhh! For some reason, Pam doesn't
respond. "What's wrong,baby?"You ask her."Nothing's wrong,
sugar,"she replies,"I just wish you'd get started!"
Sorry, you can't do that....
****

If ever there were a game begging to be MST3Ked, this is it.  It's got it
all.  Random "guess the syntax" and "guess whether or not this verb needs
an object," problems (KISS PAM is not the same as KISS MOUTH.  The second
is correct).  A severely limited vocabulary.  Four, count them, four
locations.  All of the puzzles are basically of the "guess the verb" type,
except they include inventory management, since you can't do Pamela unless
you're holding her clothes (in itself, a sort of amusing image).  And then,
to top it all, there's exactly one way to win the game.

You guessed it.  SHOOT PAMELA WITH GUN.  (SHOOT PAMELA doesn't work.)

This game can only be recommended from the same camp viewpoint that enjoyed
"Detective" or "Cardigan."  From that viewpoint, well, er, maybe it's not
too much of a waste of your ten minutes, if you weren't doing anything
anyway.  I guess.

Even the Super Stiffy Secret--the message you get if you get *all* the
points is, well, to be frank, stolen from Kentucky Fried Movie.  Mutato
nomine, et de Big Jim Slade fabula narratur.

Here's the walkthrough, in as non-offensive language as I could manage:

E
LOOK IN WINDOW
W
N
N
TAKE SKIRT
TAKE PANTIES
TAKE BLOUSE
TAKE BRA
REMOVE CLOTHES
KISS MOUTH
FEEL BREASTS
FEEL VAGINA
KISS BREASTS
DO BREASTS
KISS VAGINA
69
BLOWJOB
DO PAM
SHOOT PAMELA WITH GUN

I really hope Mark Ryan grew up and met an actual woman.  However, his
rerelease of this game bodes ill for that wish.

I leave you with one final clip from this game's scintillating prose:

****
> feel hooters
HONK,HONK!
****

Adam




-- 
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | adam@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Mar 19 10:47:43 MET 1997
Article: 21943 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Tads For Windows?
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Rich (rich@cstone.net) wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:18:02 -0500, Stephen Granade <sgranade@phy.duke.edu>
> wrote:

> >On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Kory Heath wrote:
> >> Sorry if this has been asked a million times, but is there a Tads
> >> interpreter for Windows 95 (or 3.1) that uses windows fonts, etc?  I
> >
> >Unfortunately, there's not one.  However, this would be a nice time to 
> >request someone do such a port, hint hint. :)  Could the WinFrotz 
> >front-end be adapted to TADS?

> So, some questions for the TADS literate, since I am inherently lazy and would
> rather have somebody tell me than look it up:

I guess that would be me... :)

> 1) Does TADS provide for arbitrary positioning of text on non-character
> boundaries (that is, does it have a pixel addressing mode)? Character bounding
> makes life much easier and allows me an easy out for scrollback, etc.

No. It's actually simpler than the Z-machine in terms of output. There is 
an output stream, which is all text, and never backs up except to clear 
the window entirely. There is no notion of character positioning.

There is one style, boldface. No graphics or sound. There's a provision 
for external code resources (which would be machine-specific) but nobody 
uses it (and MaxTADS doesn't support it.)

The status line is always one line, and consists of two strings -- one 
left-justified, one right-justified. There's no character positioning 
there, either. 

(On the other hand, there are some weirdism which make the API more
complicated again. For example, the engine assumes that boldface is
switched on and off by printing specific characters, and it expects the
interface to tell it which characters those are. This leads to a rather
painful chain of action in MaxTADS: one part of the engine calls
set_bold(TRUE), which calls print_char(interpreter_supplied_bold_char),
and then my implementation of print_char() checks for the bold_char I
supplied -- which is ctrl-A -- and skips it and calls my set_style()
function.)

(There's also some mess about pouring text into an internal buffer which 
I'm still not entirely sure I got right.)

The big thing TADS does that the Z-machine doesn't is file I/O. There are 
internal commands to open files, print data to or read data from them, 
and close them. I expect it will be pretty easy to implement this using 
the ANSI library -- fopen(), fread(), fseek(), ftell(), etc. In fact, the 
existing IBM port should have all of that defined already. It was a 
nuisance for me to adapt it to the Mac toolbox, but not a large nuisance.

> 7) Is there any legal silliness or mumbo-jumbo to the code that could either end
> up a) causing me heartache or b) costing people money? I absolutely do NOT want
> to have anybody paying to enjoy interactive fiction.

The license on the TADS source code is a little restrictive in terms of 
derived works. Porting is free, and I believe the only restriction there 
is that ported version must also be freeware. (But I don't have a copy in 
front of me, so don't take my word for it.)

I was very conservative when I wrote MaxTADS, since it has the ability to 
generate stand-alone apps, which did not fall literally into the wording 
of the TADS license. I asked Mike Roberts about it, and he okayed MaxTADS 
and the license I built into it. I'm sure you could do the same.

One of these days, I'll have time to do XTADS.

--Z


-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From rich@cstone.net Wed Mar 19 10:47:56 MET 1997
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From: rich@cstone.net (Rich)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tads For Windows?
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:26:15 GMT
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On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:00:51 GMT, erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:

>No. It's actually simpler than the Z-machine in terms of output. There is 
>an output stream, which is all text, and never backs up except to clear 
>the window entirely. There is no notion of character positioning.

Ahhhh...no notion of character positioning solves SO many problems.

>
>There is one style, boldface. No graphics or sound. There's a provision 
>for external code resources (which would be machine-specific) but nobody 
>uses it (and MaxTADS doesn't support it.)
>
>The status line is always one line, and consists of two strings -- one 
>left-justified, one right-justified. There's no character positioning 
>there, either. 

This is vastly simplified from the Z-Machine. I would say it's trivial, but I
know better than to say such things. 

>interface to tell it which characters those are. This leads to a rather
>painful chain of action in MaxTADS: one part of the engine calls
>set_bold(TRUE), which calls print_char(interpreter_supplied_bold_char),
>and then my implementation of print_char() checks for the bold_char I
>supplied -- which is ctrl-A -- and skips it and calls my set_style()
>function.)

I believe this calls for an ugly hack (something I have no qualms about, heh).

>The license on the TADS source code is a little restrictive in terms of 
>derived works. Porting is free, and I believe the only restriction there 
>is that ported version must also be freeware. (But I don't have a copy in 
>front of me, so don't take my word for it.)

Hmph. Well, so long as it can't be charged for and it doesn't lay claim to
anything but it's own code (I hate this legal stuff).

I will look at this over the weekend. No promises, but if everything works the
way it's being described a fully scrolling version should not be difficult.

-Rich

P.S. And NO it would probably not work in Win 3.X (certainly not if I use
RichEditView).


From MKST21C@prodigy.com Wed Mar 19 10:49:29 MET 1997
Article: 21957 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: MKST21C@prodigy.com (Chris Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Floyd (was: Re: Best original Infocom games?)
Date: 19 Mar 1997 07:47:15 GMT
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Paul O'Brian <obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>
>On 12 Mar 1997, Matthew Daly wrote:
>
>> I was never able to finish [Stationfall], because I didn't want to 
type
>> what the game expected me to type at the end.  That's not 
entertainment
>> to me. :-)
>
>I just finished Stationfall, and had a similarly disturbed reaction
>throughout much of the game...
>
    So did I. Without saying much here, Stationfall is a lot grimmer than 
Planetfall. It does have its comic moments, so it's not quite as grim as 
A Mind Forever Voyaging, but as far as 'Meretzky's grimmest game' goes, 
it's a close runner-up...

Stationfall spoilers ahead....



























      Okay.

  Even without all the things that happen to Floyd over the course of the 
game, Stationfall is very grim. In Planetfall, you learn that the 
population of the planet is in suspended animation. In Stationfall, you 
learn that the inhabitants of the station have all been killed by 
machinery gone mad.
   Floyd is forced to choose between his two friends when Plato is 
possessed by the alien pyramid and tries to kill you. And then Floyd 
himself begins acting irrationally.  
>I was really quite unprepared for Floyd's transformation from huggable 
to
>hostile. Of course, it made perfect sense with the plot (which, IMHO, 
was
>one of the game's best features) but it was just painful to experience,
>more painful than I would have ever expected. I was having emotions 
akin
>to watching a favorite pet slowly dying of cancer & losing its mind. As
>Matthew said, I would be hard put to call most of Stationfall
>"entertaining."
    Indeed. While the plot of Stationfall is stronger than Planetfall 
(and has higher stakes--you're not just trying to save one planet, you 
have to save every sentient machine-building race in the universe from an 
out-of-control alien weapon), Floyd's dementia becomes more and more 
disturbing as things go on...

>Now, it was certainly gripping and effective interactive fiction (for 
me
>anyway), but it was not a fun game. Consequently, my responses to it 
are
>somewhat fractured. I'd cite Stationfall as one of the best pieces of 
IF
>I've ever seen in terms of manipulating the player's emotions. (Come to
>think of it, most of the others are by Meretzky, too. He does seem to 
have
>the touch, at least when that's what he's aiming for.) However, I don't
>think I could recommend it. It hurt to play the game.
>
>And I guess I'm not alone in finding the ending rather anticlimactic.
>After the tremendously affecting portrayal of Floyd's descent into 
hostile
>dementia, why does the game feel the need to inject the comic ("you're 
not
>quite sure where Floyd got a hold of that black eye patch")? And the
>melodrama of the end was just too over-the-top. Of course, maybe I 
would
>have felt differently if I hadn't known all along that Floyd was going 
to
>die at some point. Something to be said for giving spoiler warnings, I
>suppose.
>
   My sentiments exactly. I thought that if Stationfall (like its 
predecessor Planetfall) had had one or two alternative endings (even one 
where Floyd lives, the universe is saved, but YOU die), it might have 
been a little better. The sense of helplessness at not being able to do 
anything to save Floyd may work for some, it may work for Meretzky, but 
it doesn't really work for me, since this IS interactive fiction. 
   And yes, the melodrama at the end WAS over-the-top. I definately could 
have done without the 'Old Yeller' homage (I would have preferred Floyd, 
with one last bit of willpower, to intercept a blast meant for the PC, or 
something like that), and the whole bit with Oliver was way too 
predictable. You knew right from the start that one way or another, Floyd 
would not be given the opportunity to personally teach Oliver how to play 
paddleball. Either Floyd would die, or the station would blow up and 
Oliver with it, or something. 
  I can think of three or four alternatives to 'Old Yeller', but as far 
as I know, none of them work. One: Set the jammer to a frequency that 
would freeze Floyd. Two: Shoot the stun ray (Floyd'll still get hurt, but 
nothing that can't be easily fixed). Three: Give the zapgun to Floyd (the 
ultimate sign of faith; despite the way Floyd's been acting, this would 
show you still trust him--it'd probably get similiar results to the 
actual ending, but it'd be preferable, in my opinion). Four: Shoot 
compartment (which is what I typed anyway, but it doesn't work. If it did,
 Floyd's paddleball set would be destroyed, so he still wouldn't be able 
to teach Oliver paddleball). 
   While Stationfall is superior to Planetfall as far as storyline and 
tense atmosphere goes, Planetfall's endgame is far better, as you have to 
find just the right place to run from the mutants who have escaped from 
the Bio Lab. If you haven't solved all the puzzles, you'll get one or two 
alternate (though somewhat bittersweet) endings. If you HAVE solved all 
the puzzles, you'll be rewarded with the best possible ending, in which 
nearly all the loose ends are tied up, your old nemesis Blather gets what 
was coming to him, and you-know-who is back to his old self. Stationfall, 
by contrast, is rather anticlimatic. No chases. Just two machines, Floyd, 
and the pyramid. And only one ending, as far as I know, and a rather 
bittersweet one at that. 
  And after all the buildup (Plato's betrayal, the fate of the galaxy, 
Floyd's breakdown), one definately would have expected something more 
spectacular.

                                           Chris Lang



From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Thu Mar 20 10:50:16 MET 1997
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From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
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In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.970319232725.21305A-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>,
Jonathan D Blask  <jdblask@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
>
>	Erm... I'm just wondering, with the game, will there be any neat 
>documentation?  I understand that it's probably impractical and 
>unrealistic for the if writers of this newsgroup to make up docs for 

Uh oh, this lead-in's too good guys...I'm gonna do it...I'm gonna toot my
own horn...must...resist.....ARRRRGHHHH!!!!

[Pause as old-timers run for cover.]

{Lightning crashes.  Thunder roars.}

"Fool, you have awoken the genie of marketing!  Irate rgif'ers will curse
your name for generations to come! ):)  Prepare to suffer my
master's wrath! (Err, sales pitch.)"

Thank you, Genie.

With every copy of Avalon, you receive, absolutely free:

A handy plastic folder to carry all your Avalon-related materials in!
A beautiful piece of Cover Art (which may or may not be color!)
A Back of the Box Blurb so moving you'll run to the bathroom!  It's even
	signed and numbered!  Get yours before they're gone! (But after
	they're finished.)
A 60 page manual complete with hintbook and coupons!
A letter notifying your mother of your untimely demise, complete in its
	own envelope with an authentic 1968 stamp!  Don't worry postmen,
	the stamp is already cancelled.  No need to fear smart aleck 
	adventurers mailing the darn thing!
Several fliers from concerned organizations of the 60's!  "Make Pizza, not
	War!"
A Pamphlet containing the colorful rules to that exciting dice game we all
	know and love, "Bones!"  Fun for the whole village!
And yes, best of all, friends, you'll receive a disk with a label to
	carry your copy of the next great text adventure, "Avalon" on.

But that's not all!  Tell them what they could win, Genie!

"Yes, sahib.  You could also, if you are among the first 100 buyers, be
one of the two lucky winners of a genuine Frank Leandro dogtag, exactly
as it appears in the game!  My goodness, I have them before me and even
I, the genie of marketing, am awed at their authenticity!"

Thank you genie.  Thank you very much.  <slips Genie $5> And thank you,
Jon, for such a wonderful excuse to toot my little old horn. <shakes Jon's
hands>  (Hmm, must remember to replace those windows.) 

>	And, just so you all know, whether "Avalon" has such documentation or 
>not, I plan on buying it when it's done.

Of course you will.  Just keeping staring at the shiny watch.  Baaackk and
foorrrthhh, baackkk and fooorttth.  You will buy Avalon.  You cannot
resist.  You cannot refuse.  Resistance is futile....

Yes, go forth now, my lovely fingers.  Go forth and bring me their
money....MUAHAHAHA!!! <skittering noises.>  Sleep....well, everyone.  And
try not to dream of disembodied fingers roaming your house, going through
your pockets, taking your credit cards...

	[Hey, you guys started it.  You know better than to throw maidens 
into a cave marked 'Here be dragons.' :)]
-- 
	"Avalon?  <looks around worriedly>  We know nothing...."


From sb6729@irix.bris.ac.uk Thu Mar 20 19:13:24 MET 1997
Article: 21986 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Samuel DAF Barlow <sb6729@irix.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Best original Infocom games?
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On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Matthew Murray wrote:

> 
> 	I love Suspect--I think it has many elements which make it 
> Infocom's strongest mysteries.  It has some serious design flaws, 
> though.  I honestly don't believe it's possible to win it honestly (in 
> other words, one time through, the first time).  And I have a problem 
> with that.  Obviously, the more you play a game, the more you are going 
> to absorb, but it should never be >necessary< to play a game more than 
> one in order to get all of the information you need to tie everything 
> up.  Except for that problem--which, unfortunately, is a considerable 
> one--I think Suspect is well-written, well-conceived, and enormously 
> entertaining.

Contrary to most of the people on this group I like the "can't complete
in one go" aspect of the detective games. OK, so it ruined the realism -
Poirot never "restore"'d. However I tend to view the detective games as
Infocom's best "time-travel" puzzles...One would run around the house
interacting (quite convincingly) and chance upon some information or
spend a whole evening following one of the characters and then zap back
to the start of the evening in order to act upon this --> Pretty much
the same idea as the time-travel problem in Sorceror but on a larger
scale; towards the end of the game you knew where you had to be at a
given time, what to carry and what to do. Then you implemented it to
'win' and achieved the best possible outcome through your 
time-travelling. The way Duffy (is this name correct I can't remember?)
could appear out of thin air also suggests that highly-advanced
technology is involved. {aside: there is a really bad TV series on the
BBC at the moment which takes this idea from Suspect/Deadline/Witness
and has a character who tries to solve "cases", fails and then
travelling back in time manages to, finally, solve the case; he didn't
win on his first play}

> 
> 	Remember, though, that Seastalker was designed with children in 
> mind.  If you look at it from that perspective, I don't think it's really 
> that bad.  It does have an interesting story, interface, and colorful 
> characters and locations.  Again, it wasn't tight--the story could be a 
> little confusing in places, and there were a lot of required actions that 
> weren't exactly obvious.  Seastalker seemed kind of schizophrenic with lots 
> of good ideas, none of which really implemented in the ways they should 
> have been.

True. The only 2 big problems I had with the game were the radar section
which I thought was a silly attempt to grab the attention of the
games-playing kids and the way if you weren't careful the hints-system
gave the game away by printing up "Open the ___ with spanner", etc. when
you first see a puzzle...as if the game wasn't easy enough as it was.
                    ____________________________________
        # \ # #### /...       The One and Only       ...\ #### # / #
        # / # #### \... S A M U E L -x- B A R L O W  .../ #### # \ #
        # \ # ##### |..                              ..| ##### # / #
        # / # #### /..       sb6729@bris.ac.uk        ..\ #### # \ #
        # \ # ### /... http://irix.bris.ac.uk/~sb6729 ...\ ### # / #
        # / # ### \______________________________________/ ### # \ #





From adam@tucson.princeton.edu Fri Mar 21 10:18:14 MET 1997
Article: 21995 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: adam@tucson.princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Help with HWFTE (10 pts)
Date: 21 Mar 1997 05:24:31 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:21995

In article <5gqpu9$nvp@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Gerry Kevin Wilson <whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>"Fool, you have awoken the genie of marketing!  Irate rgif'ers will curse
>your name for generations to come! ):)  Prepare to suffer my
>master's wrath! (Err, sales pitch.)"

Here's the Infocomesque Sample Transcript.

This transcript is not from Avalon, but it could be.  It illustrates the
sort of things you can expect to find in the game.

***Beginning of Transcript***

Blasted Heath

This blackened and charred field was probably once overgrown with heather.
Rough, rocky paths lead west and southeast.

Mordred is here, glaring menacingly about.

Merlin is here, fiddling with his wizard's cap.

Gawain is here, polishing his armor.

There is a potato here.

>TAKE POTATO

Mordred, swift as lightning, blocks your clumsy attempt to take the potato.
"Muahahaha," he laughs evilly.

Merlin rubs contemplatively at a knot on his staff.

Gawain scratches himself

>MERLIN, TAKE POTATO

Merlin looks at you and then at the potato.  Then at Mordred.  You.
Potato.  Mordred.  Potato.  Mordred.  You.  Potato.

Mordred picks up the potato.  "Muahahaha," he laughs evilly.

Gawain ruminatively explores his nose with his index finger.

>ASK MORDRED ABOUT POTATO

"It is 2245 miles from Boisie, Idaho to Cambridge Massachusetts."

Merlin shrugs.

Gawain scratches his butt.

>ASK MERLIN ABOUT POTATO

"There are seven airports in Iraq," offers Merlin helpfully.

Mordred balances the potato on his nose.  "Muahahaha," he laughs evilly.

Gawain belches.

>GAWAIN, WHY ARE YOU SUCH A DISGUSTING SLOB

"I don't know the verb 'why' but I do know that it is not a verb.  There
are fourteen disgusting slobs in Boise, Idaho, in the United States of
America."

One of Whizzard's fingers enters the room.

Mordred sees the finger, yelps in terror, and drops the potato.

Merlin examines the symbols on his robe.

Gawain tells you about his '84 Camaro.

There is a potato here.

> W

Darned Heath

This grassland is held together with bright yellow stitching.

One of Whizzard's fingers enters the room.

> EXAMINE FINGER

It is the right middle finger.

The finger stands on end and gestures at you.

***End of Transcript***
-- 
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | adam@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928


From digamma@hotmail.com Mon Mar 24 00:31:33 MET 1997
Article: 22041 of rec.games.int-fiction
Message-ID: <3335BBAB.5D40@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 15:24:27 -0800
From: Mark Ryan <digamma@hotmail.com>
Organization: MOFECCCVC International
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Review of "Stiffy".  SPOILERS, OBSCENITY, and a GIANT WASTE OF TIME
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:22041

Whoa dude, you used the word retrograde in your SIG.  That's my favorite 
word, as I mentioned in the instructions.  You also played the game all 
the way through, which qualifies you for a place in the IEASM Hall of 
Fame.  As for that Kentucky Fried Movie thing, I had no idea.  I've been 
using that saying for a while now.  Oh well.  That was in the disclaimer. 

LONG LIVE CRAPPY TEXT ADVENTURES!!!!!

mark
http://members.tripod.com/~digamma/


From pspencer@csfp.co.uk Mon Mar 24 15:58:27 MET 1997
Article: 22053 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Phil Spencer <pspencer@csfp.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Bibliol College in Christminster
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:37:44 +0000
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A lot of the college history is based on that of Baliol College in
Oxford. The layout of Baliol is completely different, so the map must
be based on another college - probably one in Cambridge since I've
visited most other Oxford colleges and I didn't recognise anything
>from the game. 

Phil Spencer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Spencer (pspencer@csfp.co.uk)
Front Office Development, Credit Suisse Financial Products
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Work:   0171-888-2774 One Cabot Square, Canary Wharf, London E14 4QJ
Home:   01799-541519  "Tallards", High Street, Newport, Essex CB11 3PQ
Mobile: 0589-738224
----------------------------------------------------------------------


From nulldogma@aol.com Tue Mar 25 09:48:52 MET 1997
Article: 22068 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: nulldogma@aol.com (Nulldogma)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Review of "Stiffy".  SPOILERS, OBSCENITY, and a GIANT WASTE OF TIME
Date: 25 Mar 1997 06:13:04 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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Spatch wrote:
> Blah blah blah, Matthew Amster-Burton, <mamster@u.washington.edu>, blah:
> > jgotts@engin.umich.edu (John Gotts) wrote:
> > 
> > >On 16 Mar 1997 20:13:45 GMT, Adam J. Thornton
<adam@flagstaff.princeton.edu> wr
> > b @b @X
> > >
> > >>> examine gun
> > >>BIG GUN KICK THE HELL OUTTA YOU!
> > >
> > >This is a reference to the AC/DC tune on the Last Action Hero
Soundtrack.
> > 
> > Well, that excuses it, then!
>
> And here all along I thought it was an obvious reference to the Steve
> Miller Band's classic "Big Old Jet Airliner".  Almost even fits into the
> meter.

Well, given that Steve Miller ripped off most of his other song lyrics
(his classic "Some people call me Maurice, 'cause I speak with the
pompatous of love" made more sense in the original, though not much more),
it's always possible that he ripped off "Big Old Jet Airliner" from AC/DC.
Sure, Steve's song came out 25 years before the other, but I wouldn't put
anything past a man like that.

Neil

You see 8,000 pop culture references here.

> KILL POP CULTURE REFERENCE
Which pop culture reference do you want to kill? 

> ANY
What do you want to kill the pop culture reference with?

> IRONY
You can't. Isn't it ironic? Just like rain, on your wedding day.

You see 8,001 pop culture references here.
---------------------------------------------------------
Neil deMause                            neild@echonyc.com
                  http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/neild.html
---------------------------------------------------------


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 26 13:43:58 MET 1997
Article: 22072 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Bibliol College in Christminster
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:03:24 +0000 (GMT)
Organization: none
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In article <33365978.167EB0E7@csfp.co.uk>, Phil Spencer
<URL:mailto:pspencer@csfp.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> A lot of the college history is based on that of Baliol College in
> Oxford. The layout of Baliol is completely different, so the map must
> be based on another college - probably one in Cambridge since I've
> visited most other Oxford colleges and I didn't recognise anything
> from the game. 

It's actually Christ's College, Cambridge, founded around 1550 by
Lady Margaret Beaufort: a mostly stone construction, with two
front courts (Cambridge slang for an enclosed yard with a grass
interior; the Oxford word is "quad"), gardens, etc.

Balliol College, Oxford, is almost entirely different: though
founded much earlier, its original buildings were mostly demolished
in the 19th century, and there's now heavy brickwork.  Does a very
good lunch for academics, employing its own carvery.

Note that Gareth didn't steal the name from Balliol, either, but
>from Hardy's novel "Jude the Obscure", in which Oxford is renamed
Christminster and Biblioll is a composite college.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From graemecree@aol.com Tue Apr  1 12:19:08 MET DST 1997
Article: 22107 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: graemecree@aol.com (GraemeCree)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Playing Infocom games
Date: 27 Mar 1997 02:19:25 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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>Oh! Yes! I meant to mention this, somewhere along the line. Basically, I
>grew up with my stomach plummeting every time I heard a disk drive whir,
>because to me it always meant that the thief was about to sidle into the
>room, or something else weird was about to happen. I mean, if I was just
>wandering around aimlessly, total silence, but the minute something
>strange happened...

     Thanks for reminding me about that.  That was a weird feeling now
that you mention it, and one that I had completely forgotten about.  It
almost makes me want to drag the old Apple II out of the garage and play a
couple of Infocom games on it to relive the feeling, because the Apple ][
disk drives sounded a lot cooler than a PC floppy drive.  More audible and
mechanical sounding.
     But if you really want to relive it on a PC, and frotz won't let you,
just play the game from an original interpreter.  The original Infocom
interpreters are keyed to one specific datafile of course, but you can
always either sector edit the interpreter or rename the .dat file to make
it work.



From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Wed Apr  2 14:52:17 MET DST 1997
Article: 22262 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Bibliol College in Christminster
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 23:07:37 +0100 (BST)
Organization: none
Message-ID: <ant0122370b0M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
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In article <66.7740.1782@tabb.com>, Joe Mason
<URL:mailto:joe.mason@tabb.com> wrote:
> 
> -> Note that Gareth didn't steal the name from Balliol, either, but from
> -> Hardy's novel "Jude the Obscure", in which Oxford is renamed
> -> Christminster and Biblioll is a composite college.
> 
> Didn't Biblioll also appear in Curses?  Hmm, why don't I just check,
> instead of asking stupid questions?
> 
> >x scarf
> This is an old Biblioll College scarf, made by Dunn and Co. (naturally).
> It has four stripes: royal blue, emerald, dark grey and scarlet.
> 
> Okay, let me rephrase that - Biblioll also appeared in Curses.  In
> Release 16, at least - which I notice came out after Christminster.  Did
> the reference predate Christminster, or was it added for R16?

I added it as a gesture to Christminster (after running across
a nice reference to Curses in CM when beta-testing it).  Previously
the scarf had no allegiance.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From earendil@ Thu Apr  3 11:18:20 MET DST 1997
Article: 22285 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Infocom debugging chart?
References: <5hq5pm$k9f@flood.xnet.com>
Organization: Gee Library, Texas A&M at Commerce
From: earendil@ (Allen Garvin)
NNTP-Posting-Host: faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:22285

In article <5hq5pm$k9f@flood.xnet.com>,
Jason Compton <jcompton@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:
>Is there a definitive chart of Infocom game debugging commands and
>how they're accessed in each game (and each revision)?
>
>I typically try the ones I know with mixed success on games I find.  I
>just found that Zork I rev 75 (Atari 8-bit release) accepts "debug" as a
>command, no # or $ or anything like that, just plain old "debug" and I was
>intrigued... 

A couple of Stu Galley's have intricate debugging commands.  From Witness:

>$DB
Find them bugs, boss!

What should you, the detective, do now?
>l
[Perform: 61]
[detective=][Actor: Not handled]
[Action:]
You are now in the driveway entrance.

You can use the commands to manipulate the object tree, but I don't remember
the syntax right now.
---------

Zork III has a special wait command that will allow you to wait any number of
turns (up to 1000, the largest number it knows).  It halts when the earth-
quake happens, so I guess it was just to make that occur.  You can also
use it in the museum to see the (very rare) robot that cleans the rooms and
shuts the doors.

>$WA [number <= 1000]

If you $WA with anything other than a number, it replies: 
Eat shit.

This was how I found it.  I was disassembling infocom games (with txd) and 
comparing the differences between versions, and noted before release 17 the 
games had the text "Eat shit".
------------

AMFV has a couple that are (I think; I don't have my copy nearby) used for
recording commands or running the game from a command script file.

A couple of others have commands $ver or $verify that check the checksum.  One
or two also have commands to reseed the random number generator.

I don't know of all debugging commands, though.

Allen Garvin


From egh@uclink4.berkeley.edu Thu Apr  3 11:18:33 MET DST 1997
Article: 22305 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: egh@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erik Hetzner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Infocom debugging chart?
Date: 3 Apr 1997 06:40:22 GMT
Organization: Lies, Inc.
Lines: 42
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Allen Garvin (earendil@) wrote:
: In article <5hq5pm$k9f@flood.xnet.com>,
: Jason Compton <jcompton@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:
: >Is there a definitive chart of Infocom game debugging commands and
: >how they're accessed in each game (and each revision)?
: >
: >I typically try the ones I know with mixed success on games I find.  I
: >just found that Zork I rev 75 (Atari 8-bit release) accepts "debug" as a
: >command, no # or $ or anything like that, just plain old "debug" and I was
: >intrigued... 

: A couple of Stu Galley's have intricate debugging commands.  From Witness:

: >$DB
: Find them bugs, boss!

: What should you, the detective, do now?
: >l
: [Perform: 61]
: [detective=][Actor: Not handled]
: [Action:]
: You are now in the driveway entrance.

: You can use the commands to manipulate the object tree, but I don't remember
: the syntax right now.

I just started fiddling with infodump, and:
  $ca $db $gn $ta $ve $wh
are all in Witness. $ve seems to be in all of the games in Masterpieces,
it verifies the game, prints the name of the interpreter. Kind of neat.

Also Zork II has: debug. What does it do? I dunno. :)
: If you $WA with anything other than a number, it replies: 
: Eat shit.

: This was how I found it.  I was disassembling infocom games (with txd) and 
: comparing the differences between versions, and noted before release 17 the 
: games had the text "Eat shit".

This doesn't exist in my version.
--
Erik Hetzner <egh@uclink4.berkeley.edu>


From shrimppd@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Fri Apr  4 14:44:38 MET DST 1997
Article: 22328 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Paul Shrimpton <shrimppd@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>
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On 2 Apr 1997 earendil@.MISSING-HOST-NAME. wrote:

> A couple of Stu Galley's have intricate debugging commands.  From Witness:
> 
> >$DB
> Find them bugs, boss!

...

>From WITNESS there's also $ca, which calls the attention of a given 
character.  There's other verbs such as $gn, $ta and $wh, none of which I 
understand how to use. 

Many games have verbs for recording/playback.  #reco, #unre and #comm 
perform recording, stop recording and playback respectively.

I've also noticed a mysterious noun present in many games, 
zzmgck; however, I've been completely unsuccesful at manipulating it.

Paul



From earendil@ Sat Apr  5 23:21:00 MET DST 1997
Article: 22350 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Planetfall Mystery Finally Solved!
Organization: Gee Library, Texas A&M at Commerce
From: earendil@ (Allen Garvin)
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:22350

Slight spoiler in case anyone is left who hasn't played the game.


Remember all those annoying red herrings in Planetfall, like the helicopter,
the dark rooms, the lamp that you could never get and keep without dying?
I always wondered if there might be some secret way to get the lamp, and what
those 2 dark rooms might be like if you could.  Well, studying the z-machine
specification document for how objects are placed around the game, I modified
a story file to place the lamp conveniently on the ship at the start of the
game, and then I went to explore those rooms.  For those of you who have
wondered about those mysterious rooms and what they might be like, here's
the answer:

  Admin Corridor North
  The corridor ends here. Portals lead west, north, and east. Signs above 
  these portals read, respectively, "Administraativ Awfisiz," "Tranzportaashun 
  Suplii," and "Plan Ruum." To the south is a wide rift, spanned by a metal 
  ladder, separating this area from the rest of the building.
  There is a multiple purpose robot here.
  
  >TURN ON LAMP
  The lamp is now producing a bright light.
  
  You begin to feel weary. It might be time to think about finding a nice 
  safe place to sleep.
  
  >NORTH
  Transportation Supply
  You have just located a serious bug.
  
-----------------
       and
-----------------
  >LOOK
  Reactor Control
  This room contains many dials and gauges for controlling a massive 
  planetary power reactor which, according to a diagram on the wall, must be 
  buried far below this very complex. The exit is to the west. To the east is 
  a metal door, and next to it, a button. A dark stairway winds downward.
  
  >DOWN
  Reactor Access Stairs
  You have just located a serious bug.


Um, they're kind of dull it seems!  Exactly alike, and you can't even examine
the bug ;).

Allen Garvin



From kheath@1connect.com Mon Apr  7 10:30:00 MET DST 1997
Article: 22399 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Kory Heath <kheath@1connect.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: So Far - One Lousy Point
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 19:16:57 -0700
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I've had the terrific good fortune of being grounded all week with a
broken foot, giving me time (finally!) to play through some IF that's
been piling up for about a year - including Plotkin's insidious _So
Far_.  This "game" is obviously an elaborate Rorschach test administered
to the unsuspecting denizens of rec.*.if, whose reactions have no doubt
been tabulated and incorporated into some sinister Zarfian plot - to
what dark end, I shudder to imagine.  Well, I'm not playing your little
game, Mr. Plotkin.  You'll get no incriminating psycho-reactive news
posts from *me*.

Umm ... wait ...

Aw, hell.

Seriously, I'm still digesting the work (and piling through the old
group-discussion of it), so I don't have much to add right now.  I will
say that I think this is an important work - if for no other reason than
the *kind* of discussion and thought it engenders.  At one point, I
found myself asking "is this game ... *pretentious*?"  I don't think it
is; but the fact that I was even asking the question says something
important about the "artistic" possibilities of the medium. (And
hopefully more than simply the possibility of writing pretentious IF. 
<g>)

But that's not what I really wanted to post about.  What I really wanted
to do was to brag about the fact that I actually figured out how to get
the One Lousy Point in So Far, which I was extremely proud of because I
usually suck at that kind of thing.

But, of course, you all probably figured out The Point a long time ago.

-- 
Kory Heath
kheath@1connect.com


From erkyrath@netcom.com Mon Apr  7 10:30:13 MET DST 1997
Article: 22401 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: So Far - One Lousy Point
Message-ID: <erkyrathE895n6.7rL@netcom.com>
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Kory Heath (kheath@1connect.com) wrote:
> I've had the terrific good fortune [...] broken foot [...] time [...]
> to play [...] Plotkin's insidious _So Far_.  This "game" is obviously 
> an elaborate Rorschach test administered to the unsuspecting denizens 
> of rec.*.if

Absolutely. I'm happy to report that everybody passed.

> whose reactions have no doubt
> been tabulated and incorporated into some sinister Zarfian plot - to
> what dark end, I shudder to imagine. 

Getting me rich and famous, what do you think?

> Well, I'm not playing your little
> game, Mr. Plotkin. 

Why'd you download it, then?

> Aw, hell.

>  At one point, I
> found myself asking "is this game ... *pretentious*?"

This really makes me happy. Thanks!

> But that's not what I really wanted to post about.  What I really wanted
> to do was to brag about the fact that I actually figured out how to get
> the One Lousy Point in So Far, which I was extremely proud of because I
> usually suck at that kind of thing.

This also makes me happy. I don't recall anyone else doing it without 
disassembling the game file (although my recollection may be wrong.)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From n9641343@statler.cc.wwu.edu Wed Apr 16 10:39:13 MET DST 1997
Article: 22669 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Matthew Murray <n9641343@statler.cc.wwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: LGOP & LSL7:Scratch 'n' Sniff
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On 14 Apr 1997, John Holder wrote:

> Daniel R. Lackey (jmdreyfuss@earthlink.net) wrote:
> : You mean you actually made it that far into LSL I to discover the plot?
> 
> : I wasn't aware that even _Softporn Adventure_ had a plot...
> 
> All the games have the same plot:
> Larry tries to get laid.
> (If you can call that a plot...)

	I don't know...  That's not entirely true.  There was a rather 
interesting story in Leisure Suit Larry II: Looking For Love (in Several 
Wrong Places), and though the plot in Leisure Suit Larry III: Passionate 
Patti in Pursuit of the Pulsating Pectorals wasn't quite as 
distinguished, and was more along the lines of that in the first game, it 
was pretty good, too.  (Mildly complex, as well.)  LSL2 deemphasized sex 
in favor of humor to a large degree, and the change worked >extremely< 
well.  LSL3 brought more sex into the mix, but used it as the catalyst 
for humor, though it was not the ONLY outlet.  The change worked 
>extremely< well.  There was no plot in LSL5.  The change destroyed the 
game.  (It's by far the worst game in the series, maybe the worst game of 
all time.  I couldn't even think about sitting through it a second 
time.)  LSL6 was better than LSL5, but only because it couldn't NOT be.  
The emphasis on sex was greater, but the humor was almost non-existent.  
The dullest Larry game, if you ask me.  LSL7 at least tried, but the 
humor missed its mark almost every single time, and Al Lowe simply didn't 
know how he wanted sex to be used in the game.  It was kind of 
schizophrenic, and not very funny on the whole, but there was, for the 
most part, a smidgen of effort not evident in the previous two games.  
LSL2 is, I think, the best game in the series, with LSL3 following close 
behind.  It was when Sierra found a formula that worked, but then 
>abandoned it< that the series started going downhill.
	In case anyone is interested in hearing my feelings on this in 
greater detail, check out the Computer Games section of my web page, 
http://www.wwu.edu/~n9641343.  I have reviews of all the Larry games 
(more in-depth than the one above) and some other information that might 
shed light on exactly why this happened.  It's a shame...  Some of the 
Larry games were good--not as good as most Infocom games, but they at 
least had something going for them.  LSL5, LSL6, and LSL7 really didn't.  
I hate to see series destroyed, and Sierra has managed to systematically 
destroy all of their greatest series.  Very sad.

===============================================================================
                    Matthew A. Murray - n9641343@cc.wwu.edu

  Over 175 computer game reviews, Babylon 5 links, and more on my home page:
                         http://www.wwu.edu/~n9641343
===============================================================================
                     Windows 95 - From the Makers of EDLIN!
===============================================================================



From earendil@ Thu Apr 17 14:18:37 MET DST 1997
Article: 22691 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: New Zork Times / Status Line
References: <01bc4a8f$43743800$04a702d0@default>
Organization: Gee Library, Texas A&M at Commerce
From: earendil@ (Allen Garvin)
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:22691

In article <01bc4a8f$43743800$04a702d0@default>,
David Thompsen <dthompsen@gci-net.com> wrote:
>While digging through old boxes the other day,  I came across my stack of
>old copies of  The New Zork Times / The Status Line, Infocom's quarterly
>newsletter.  Talk about a flashback.... lotta memories there.  Anyway, the
>gist of this message is this :  has anyone thought to scan these old back
>issues and put them online?  Is there an archive of them somewhere?   Or am
>I just wishful thinking?
>
>--Dave

ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/infocom/NZT+TSL/

has several articles.  And one night a month ago, when I was really really
bored, I typed the entire Summer of 1985 issue.  It's available there, or,
if you want,

http://faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu/~earendil/Infocom/nzt-summer-85.html

I'm planning to type in more issues the next time I get bored, but I only
have 6 issues that I can find, all from 1985-86.

Allen Garvin


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue May  6 10:36:01 MET DST 1997
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Laughably bad games
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:23007

root (root@prime.elemental.co.il) wrote:

> Discuss: should the i-f archive contain _every_ i-f game ever, or just
> those above a certain level? what about the mini-adventures i wrote
> to teach myself inform? they're really horrible. If we have bad stuff in 
> the archive, does it decrease people's enjoyment of i-f and eventually makes 
> it less popular?

As an archive, GMD should definitely contain bad games. People may like
playing campy garbage; the games may have historical interest; they may
have interesting ideas in spite of overall low quality; and regardless,
we'd never decide what "bad" means. 

There are many resources out there to help people distinguish good games 
>from bad games. (In whatever sense.)

As to learning-Inform games, it's up to you (as the author) to decide
whether to release them. If you do allow the general public to play them at
all, I think you should allow them to be archived. Obviously if you think
your game should never be inflicted on another human being, that's
different. 

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Fri May  9 10:23:24 MET DST 1997
Article: 23050 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Ending of Trinity (Lotsa SPOILERS)
Message-ID: <erkyrathE9tKG1.2r0@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
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Michael Straight (straight@email.unc.edu) wrote:

> Well, I got Masterpieces at Christmas and saved Trinity until I'd played
> several of the other games and just finished it and thought I'd give some
> comments and ask some questions.

> I think this game as the best "Opening Scene" of any IF I've played.  I
> don't know what was up with the animated grass (any thoughts on how that
> fits into the Trinity world?) but the umbrella/pram puzzle was just plain
> fun.

Heh. Yeah.

> I really liked the mushroom world (I guess that's the "Wabe"?) - the soap
> bubble puzzle and the icesicle were some of my favorites there.  

"A Wabe is the area around a sundial..."

> I'm not sure what to make of the ending.  For one thing, I'm not sure I
> like the fact that you only get an indication that this bomb is different
> from bombs in our reality if you die and read the bit about it
> obliterating half of New Mexico. 

As I recall, when I originally played Trinity, this bit didn't register 
with me very much. Which made the whole point of the ending a lot more 
obscure. I mean, is there much difference between a small crater in NM and 
a crater wiping out half of NM? It's all just cactus, right? :) If they'd 
said "obliterating half of the US" I would have gotten the point.

> My understanding of the end was that I jiggered with history such that
> the atomic war I escaped in the beginning is, in the end, being fought
> with much less powerful atomic weapons, such that the world might survive,
> even if it is gonna get pummeled and I'm gonna die in London.  Doesn't
> seem all that satisfying.  What's better (other than the closure of it)
> about me dying in London than me dying at ground zero at Trinity that the
> voice has to transport me back?  

My understanding is that you jigger with history so that nuclear bombs 
don't work *at all*. All the "nuclear explosions" of history are excess 
temporal energy radiating away. But yes, those "explosions" are much 
smaller than actual nuclear explosions, which are the NM-destroying sorts 
of things.

> Am I to think that, in the world I started out in, the Trinity bomb had
> destroyed most of New Mexico and the USA had gone ahead and built another
> one anyway?  I find it hard to believe that the Manhattan project could
> recover from such a debacle.

Heh. Good point.

> Was the Wabewalker burried in the crypt a future me or a former
> Wabewalker?  It seems it must be the latter, since I don't die with my
> magic boots on. 

Ideally, these two cases are identical. But the situation isn't, er,
amenable to that much logical analysis. :)

Somewhere I have the very nice letter that Brian Moriarty sent me, when I 
mailed in a letter asking many of these same questions. Not somewhere 
easily reachable, unfortunately. It boiled down to "figure it out 
yourself" anyway. Heh.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Fri May  9 10:25:32 MET DST 1997
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From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ending of Trinity (Lotsa SPOILERS)
Date: 7 May 1997 21:18:38 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
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Spoilers far below.
























Well, not that far.



Well, the end of Trinity, to me, was a lot about the inevitability of
technology.  You can't stop it, it continues to advance, faster and
faster, and all the rest of us can do is hang on for dear life.  If you
stop one test, they do another, and another, and another, until they get
it to work.  The best case scenario for the Wabewalker would be to be able
to stop each test as it occurs (which is not really alluded to by the
author, it's more my own interpretation.)  Unfortunately, you'd have an
infinite number of tests to stop, because once atomic weapons have been
theorized, someone is going to eventually build the damn things.  So you
keep going around and around in circles, pushing back the tests little by
little, having to prevent Germany from discovering the bomb, and the
allies, and everyone else.

Mind you, that's the best case scenario, becoming a guardian who forever
tries to keep mankind's hand out of the atomic cookie jar.

I think Moriarty's ending is vague enough to allow this interpretation,
because as folks have pointed out, if you don't prevent the test, the
explosion is far greater than it was historically.  So you are making a
small impact, and eventually, because of the time looping effect, you can
push back the invention of the bomb, but you can never totally prevent its
invention at all.

Or I dunno, maybe you can.  Maybe you finally prevent it in the long run
and die, hence the Wabewalker's corpse.

Pure conjecture, but I'm just pointing out that the ending doesn't HAVE to
be as grim as it first strikes us.  We haven't blown ourselves up yet, and
the internet has yet to destroy the art of personal relationships.
-- 
=  SPAG Magazine  = Issues 1-10 at ftp.gmd.de:/if-archive/magazines/SPAG =
=       All       =  Ratings =     Issue 11 coming soon.  It's full      =
=      About      =  Reviews =        of spiritual creaminess.           =
= Text Adventures =   News!  =        Editor: whizzard@pobox.com         =


From adam@tucson.princeton.edu Fri May  9 10:26:21 MET DST 1997
Article: 23095 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: adam@tucson.princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ending of Trinity (Lotsa SPOILERS)
Date: 7 May 1997 18:29:27 GMT
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In article <erkyrathE9tKG1.2r0@netcom.com>,
Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:
>Michael Straight (straight@email.unc.edu) wrote:

HUGE spoilers below

>
>> I'm not sure what to make of the ending.  For one thing, I'm not sure I
>> like the fact that you only get an indication that this bomb is different
>> from bombs in our reality if you die and read the bit about it
>> obliterating half of New Mexico. 
>As I recall, when I originally played Trinity, this bit didn't register 
>with me very much. Which made the whole point of the ending a lot more 
>obscure. I mean, is there much difference between a small crater in NM and 
>a crater wiping out half of NM? It's all just cactus, right? :) If they'd 
>said "obliterating half of the US" I would have gotten the point.
>> My understanding of the end was that I jiggered with history such that
>> the atomic war I escaped in the beginning is, in the end, being fought
>> with much less powerful atomic weapons, such that the world might survive,
>> even if it is gonna get pummeled and I'm gonna die in London.  Doesn't
>> seem all that satisfying.  What's better (other than the closure of it)
>> about me dying in London than me dying at ground zero at Trinity that the
>> voice has to transport me back?  
>My understanding is that you jigger with history so that nuclear bombs 
>don't work *at all*. All the "nuclear explosions" of history are excess 
>temporal energy radiating away. But yes, those "explosions" are much 
>smaller than actual nuclear explosions, which are the NM-destroying sorts 
>of things.
>> Am I to think that, in the world I started out in, the Trinity bomb had
>> destroyed most of New Mexico and the USA had gone ahead and built another
>> one anyway?  I find it hard to believe that the Manhattan project could
>> recover from such a debacle.
>Heh. Good point.

>Somewhere I have the very nice letter that Brian Moriarty sent me, when I 
>mailed in a letter asking many of these same questions. Not somewhere 
>easily reachable, unfortunately. It boiled down to "figure it out 
>yourself" anyway. Heh.

When I asked the Nefarious Doctor Moriarty these questions several years
ago, the letter I got back more or less confirmed my suspicions, which are
these:

The "winning" ending puts *you* in a temporal loop, where for the rest of
eternity, you wander through Kensington Gardens, go to the Wabe, and fix
history so that it is possible to throw you into Kensington Gardens....

That is, in *our* world, nuclear bombs do not *really* work.  They merely
"blow off some quantum steam."

This is still sufficient to eradicate everyone and everything.  This
position is, by the way, consistent with Andrew Plotkin's analysis:
everything *we* think to have been a nuclear explosion is merely radiating
excess temporal energy, or something.  The net effect is that in 199x,
there is still a full-scale global conflict with these bombs, that blows
everything up, including an old Hiroshima survivor in Kensington gardens.

If you do not get it "right", presumably half of NM is eradicated.  My
question which remains unanswered is, well, in a cosmic sense, isn't
*that*, WWII being won with conventional weapons, and no Apocalyptic Global
Nuclear War, preferable to the history shown in _Trinity_?

And yes, that would make this the grimmest of all Infocom's endings, far
surpassing even _Infidel_.

But we must remember that this game appeared in the middle of Reagan's
second term.  IIRC, Moriarity writes that he shared my view of the time,
that cataclysmic nuclear war was inevitable, and the only question was
whether it would be tomorrow or in five years.

As far as I'm concerned, _Trinity_ is still Infocom's finest hour and the
high-water mark of interactive fiction.

Adam
-- 
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | adam@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928


From carl@earthweb.com Fri May  9 11:13:19 MET DST 1997
Article: 23053 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Carl Muckenhoupt <carl@earthweb.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ending of Trinity (Lotsa SPOILERS)
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 13:51:06 -0400
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First, I should point out that everything I'm saying below is simply how
it seemes to me.  If pressed, I could probably come up with something to
justify it all, but I won't bother unless someone asks; I'd probably
have to replay Trinity in order to do so.

Michael Straight wrote:
> I'm not sure what to make of the ending.  For one thing, I'm not sure I
> like the fact that you only get an indication that this bomb is different
> from bombs in our reality if you die and read the bit about it
> obliterating half of New Mexico.  Not that I believe for a second someone
> could play the game without ever getting blown-up, but its a pretty major
> plot point to run into the "you shouldn't have to die to get this"
> problem.   Were there other clues that "this is an alternate reality" that
> I missed?

Other than the mere fact that it's fiction and the conflict depicted in
the beginning didn't actually take place, I'd say it *isn't* supposed to
be an alternate reality.  This is our world.  History is as you (and the
player character) remember it, *because of your intervention*.  You
don't change the past, as your actions are already part of the past you
know.  This gives the game an additional fatalistic aspect.

If you fail to stop the test, on the other hand, that *does* change
history.  But you don't live to see the consequences.

> I'm not sure I liked the voice at the end, implying I was being watched
> the whole time by entities capable of jumping me about in time and
> jiggering with the atomic yield of fission.  If they can do all that, what
> did they need me for?  In fact, why did I have to stop the bomb at all if
> they're just gonna change things so it goes off at that time with a
> smaller bang?

*They* didn't change the result of fission.  *You* did, through the time
paradox.  The voice is just informing you about the consequences of your
actions.  (The explanation is pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo, of course,
and makes no sense at all, but what the hey.)  I don't know where the
voice comes from or what its agenda is - maybe it's the being that made
the mushroom world, maybe it's a product of it.  Who knows, maybe it's
your ghost, or the telepathic voice of the roadrunner.  There's a lot
left unexplained.

> My understanding of the end was that I jiggered with history such that
> the atomic war I escaped in the beginning is, in the end, being fought
> with much less powerful atomic weapons, such that the world might survive,
> even if it is gonna get pummeled and I'm gonna die in London.

My understanding is that, by winning, you change nothing.  On the face
of it, this may seem even less satisfying, but I think it's a far more
powerful statement.  Especially when you consider all the sacrifices you
make to achieve it (the skink, the lemming, the hut with the cauldron). 
What was it all for? A world with no future?  - These are the questions
the author wants us to ask, as they apply to our world in the grip of
the arms race.

>  Doesn't
> seem all that satisfying.  What's better (other than the closure of it)
> about me dying in London than me dying at ground zero at Trinity that the
> voice has to transport me back?

For that matter, are you going to die in London?  You re-enter London at
the same point as the game started, and follow your original actions up
to a point. It looks like a time loop to me.  Except that this time
around, you know where it all leads. ("All prams lead to the Kensington
Gardens", every life ends in death.)  This gave me chills.

> Am I to think that, in the world I started out in, the Trinity bomb had
> destroyed most of New Mexico and the USA had gone ahead and built another
> one anyway?  I find it hard to believe that the Manhattan project could
> recover from such a debacle.

As stated above, I don't think that this is what happened.  It would be
absurd to have as many nuclear tests as we see in the game if every one
of them were that destructive.

> 
> Was the Wabewalker burried in the crypt a future me or a former
> Wabewalker?  It seems it must be the latter, since I don't die with my
> magic boots on.

The wabewalker corpse is mysterious.  I take it to be your own corpse,
but since you never die, where did it come from?  (Probably the same
place as the umbrella.)  At any rate, the mushroom world has a strange
relationship to time. 
And presumably you're no exception to the law that all prams must
inevitably wind up at the Kensington Gardens.  The only sensible answer
is that it's there to remind you of your own mortality, literal
explanations being worth little in the mushroom world.

About that umbrella: Some people miss this, but it is implied that the
horribly scarred woman who loses the umbrella in the beginning is the
same as the little girl to whom you give the umbrella later on.  This
supports the theory that you live in a world in which your adventures
have already happened.  It's interesting what the author does here:
Almost every time travel story answers the question "Is it possible to
change the past?" (which is tantamount to the Free Will question.) 
Trinity manages to delay answering that question for a long time, by
making your forays into the past completely inconsequential - every
place you visit is blown up with an atom bomb immediately after you
leave! Even so, we have hints like the umbrella, so the ending is subtly
foreshadowed.

-- 
Carl Muckenhoupt		carl@earthweb.com
EarthWeb			http://www.earthweb.com/


From carl@earthweb.com Fri May  9 12:21:58 MET DST 1997
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From: Carl Muckenhoupt <carl@earthweb.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ending of Trinity (Lotsa SPOILERS)
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Sorry to follow up to my own post, but I have a few additions:

First, every instance of the words "mushroom world" in my post should be
changed to "wabe".  It's a much cooler name.

WRT the New-Mexico-Obliterating weapons: Consider Japan.  In a world
with N-M-O nukes, it's quite unlikely that the little girl would survive
to see Kensington.  This is further evidence that the player is just
running in place.

Incedentally, she also provides something of a limit on the range of
time in which the beginning could take place.  The game is clearly set
in the future (taking the "present" to be the time in which it was
written), because SDI is apparently a reality.  But the scarred woman's
age limits it to the near future (probably now the near past.)
That is, if we accept that the scarred woman and the little girl are the
same person.

Finally, to clarify, when I say that your efforts "change nothing", I
mean they don't change the history you know.  Without them, things would
probably be much worse.

-- 
Carl Muckenhoupt		carl@earthweb.com
EarthWeb			http://www.earthweb.com/


From adam@tucson.princeton.edu Fri May  9 12:25:40 MET DST 1997
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From: adam@tucson.princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ending of Trinity (Lotsa SPOILERS)
Date: 7 May 1997 19:31:49 GMT
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In article <3370C7EE.1CAC@earthweb.com>,
Carl Muckenhoupt  <carl@earthweb.com> wrote:
>Sorry to follow up to my own post, but I have a few additions:

Once again, SPOILERS!

>First, every instance of the words "mushroom world" in my post should be
>changed to "wabe".  It's a much cooler name.

Yup.

>WRT the New-Mexico-Obliterating weapons: Consider Japan.  In a world
>with N-M-O nukes, it's quite unlikely that the little girl would survive
>to see Kensington.  This is further evidence that the player is just
>running in place.

Yup.

>Incedentally, she also provides something of a limit on the range of
>time in which the beginning could take place.  The game is clearly set
>in the future (taking the "present" to be the time in which it was
>written), because SDI is apparently a reality.  But the scarred woman's
>age limits it to the near future (probably now the near past.)
>That is, if we accept that the scarred woman and the little girl are the
>same person.

Yup.  Let's see:
****
>examine woman
Her face is wrong.

You look a little closer and shudder to yourself. The entire left side of her
head is scarred with deep red lesions, twisting her oriental features into a
hideous mask. She must have been in an accident or something.

****

Well, nothing explicit about her age.  We know she's a "cute four or five"
at Nagasaki, thus born around 1940.  "Old" could be anything from, say,
55 to, oh, 80, remembering that she's still spry enough to give the tree a
vicious little kick.  So that'd put the story anywhere from 1995 to 2020.

>Finally, to clarify, when I say that your efforts "change nothing", I
>mean they don't change the history you know.  Without them, things would
>probably be much worse.

Yeah, well, *how*?  In the war we see in _Trinity_, *everybody dies*.  Look
at the Wabe: 

As your eyes sweep the landscape, you notice more of the giant
toadstools. There must be hundreds of them. Some sprout in clusters, others
grow in solitude among the trees. Their numbers increase dramatically as
your gaze moves westward, until the forest is choked with pale domes.


I don't see how it gets any worse than this.  A profoundly distressing and
despairing game, if you ask me.

Adam
-- 
"I'd buy me a used car lot, and | adam@princeton.edu | As B/4 | Save the choad!
I'd never sell any of 'em, just | "Skippy, you little fool, you are off on an-
drive me a different car every day | other of your senseless and retrograde
depending on how I feel.":Tom Waits| little journeys.": Thomas Pynchon | 64,928


From albatros@wco.com Sun May 11 22:04:29 MET DST 1997
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From: Al Petrofsky <albatros@wco.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Number of rooms in Enchanter (was Re: Number of IF gamers world-wide)
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Russell Glasser <rglasser@penning.lanl.gov> writes:
> 
> Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> > 
> > Russell Glasser (rglasser@penning.lanl.gov) wrote:
> > >       Third of all, it wouldn't take an hour to code up a game with any
> > > number of distinct rooms just for purposes of the contest.  Remember, as
> > > someone correctly pointed out, Enchanter had no less than THREE rooms that
> > > were infinite vectors -- an unlimited number of rooms.
> > 
> > The Burma Shave road, the stairwell. What was the third?
> > 
> 
> 	Sorry for confusing people (not just you, but somebody else wrote me a 
> private email).  A vector is infinite in one direction only, therefore the 
> stairs count twice.  See, there's three times infinity rooms!  Isn't that 
> even more impressive than just one infinity?  (Don't bother answering that.)

Oh, but I must!

As someone else pointed out, "infinity" really means a mere 2^16, or
65536 (64k), if the room number is stored in a standard 16-bit
z-machine memory location.  Looking at the disassembled code of
Enchanter (Release 29 / Serial number 860820), you can see that the
rooms above the staircase and below the staircase are implemented with
a single variable (G62).  Because the code does not check for
overflow, the staircase is actually a finite loop of only 64k, or one
"infinity" rooms.  The Long Road is also a loop (see G56) of one
"infinity" rooms.  

So the number of rooms in Enchanter is only a little more than two
infinity, or 128k, not three infinity.  Of course, many of them you
can't get to before Kril destroys the world due to your pointless
wanderings.  This raises the philosophical question "If a room is
coded in a forest, but nobody can get there, does it really exist?".

(Answer: yes, if players hack their save files.)

-al

P.S.  To provide even more detail to support my pointless point,
here's the relevant code.  Note that although the number of the room
with the exit is 10,000 (#2710), this doesn't really matter, because
as the number is incremented or decremented there's no check for if it
passes 0.  (If it checked, and stopped your movement, then there would
be 10,000 rooms below and 55,536 above.)

Routine R0308, 1 local (0000)

       CLEAR_ATTR      "Winding Stair",#0f
       CALL            R0311 (G62) >> -(SP)
       PRINT           "You "
       JZ              L00 [TRUE] L0001
       PRINT           "climb"
       INC             G62
       JUMP            L0002
L0001: PRINT           "descend"
       DEC             G62
L0002: PRINT           " the stairs, making one circuit of the tower."
       NEW_LINE        
       CALL            R0312 (G62) >> -(SP)
       RET_POPPED      

Routine R0309, 1 local (0000)

       JE              L00,#03 [FALSE] L0002
       PRINT           "This is a winding stair, stretching up and down out of
sight. The walls are mossy and damp."
       JE              G62,#2710 [FALSE] L0001
       PRINT           " An exit leads west to a landing."
L0001: NEW_LINE        
       RTRUE           
L0002: JE              L00,#02 [FALSE] RET #FALSE
       JE              Gb9,#37 [TRUE] RET #FALSE
       GET_PARENT      "cretin" >> -(SP)
       JIN             Gb9,(SP)+ [TRUE] RET #FALSE
       REMOVE_OBJ      Gb9
       STORE           G34,#00
       STORE           Ga8,#00
       RFALSE          


From richard@manor.york.ac.uk Mon May 12 10:12:24 MET DST 1997
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From: rgc2@york.ac.uk (Richard G Clegg)
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Helen (helen@voland.cc.huji.ac.il) wrote:

: I also try to use the objects from real life in the games and vice versa. 
: for example, whenever I see a lost key (on the street, etc) I want to
: pick it,  maybe it will fit one of the unevitable locked doors...

  Heh - I have similar "objects from real life" experiences - after a
hint on Sam and Max (from Lucas Arts) that Smooth Peanut Butter will
help Yetis with sore feet I spent ages scouring the game for it.  When I
gave up due to lack of sleep at around 2am I went downstairs to make a
snack and found the missing peanut butter in my food cupboard - in my
(somewhat incoherent) state I did seriously worry about the problem of
getting it into the computer somehow.

--
Richard G. Clegg     Only the mind is waving
Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York.
email: richard@manor.york.ac.uk   
www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html



From whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu Tue May 13 12:54:54 MET DST 1997
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From: whizzard@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Avalon question
Date: 12 May 1997 19:57:25 GMT
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In article <5l7qe7$ftu@news.ox.ac.uk>, ct <ct@ecs.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <1$BiaAAn9sdzEw5i@warsop.demon.co.uk>,
>Andrew Duncanson  <dunk@warsop.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> I've been following the news group for quite some time now, and have
>> seen a few references to a game called avalon. From what i can pick up
>> it hasn't been finished yet. I wouldn't mind some details about what
>:-) :-) :-)
>It's a troll, it _has_ to be a troll! Could whizzard have faked it?
>Enquiring minds want to know!

Nope, astonishingly enough, Andrew was brave enough to ask the question on
his very own, so I'm sending him a little e-mail blurb (200+ rooms,
complex NPCs, best thing since sliced bread, $25.00, etc).  As soon as my
e-mail provider gets its act together, that is.

Aren't you glad I didn't take advantage of the opportunity to post an
advert? ;)

As for status of Avalon, right now it hasn't been worked on for 2-3 weeks
because I've needed to work on my paying jobs (RPG book, consultation for
Activision, etc.) but I did get it far enough before then to put a new
betatest out to the testers.  It has proven very buggy this time around,
with old bugs coming back to life and all sorts of great stuff, so, as
soon as I get my paying jobs out of the way I'll fic the major bugs, put
in the last area (12-17 rooms, 5-10 NPCs, some complex timing
difficulties) and put it out for final betatesting.  Then I'll do up the
hintbook, finish the manual, get everything assembled while taking orders,
and start shipping.

I figure that I should at least beat the millenium.
-- 
=  SPAG Magazine  = Issues 1-10 at ftp.gmd.de:/if-archive/magazines/SPAG =
=       All       =  Ratings =     Issue 11 coming soon.  It's full      =
=      About      =  Reviews =        of spiritual creaminess.           =
= Text Adventures =   News!  =        Editor: whizzard@pobox.com         =


From jota@tiac.net Wed May 14 14:32:08 MET DST 1997
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From: jota@tiac.net (Admiral Jota)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Foolish question
Date: 14 May 97 00:39:41 GMT
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lfrench106@aol.com (LFrench106) writes:

>Q. How many people who are IF fans are also into Roguelikes (look up ADOM,
>Angband, and NetHack for examples of what a Roguelike is)? I've seen a
>bunch of sigs match between at least two newsgroups collections
>(rec.games.if/r.g.roguelike.*).

[Raises hand]

>Q. For those of you who are familar with both, what do you think of a
>comparison between IF and roguelikes?

Actually, I've been wondering how long it'll be before someone does a
parody of a Rogue-like game in IF -- kinda like that DOOM parody in TADS a
while back.

**

A large, dark room extends for about twenty feet in every direction.
Passages lead off to the west, south, and southeast. An altar stands next
to a set of stairs leading up to the previous level of the dungeon.

An angry Kobold proceeds toward you.
A grid bug bites you!
Your dog, Fido, bites the grid bug.

>I

You are carrying:
     Weapons
        a +0 two-handed sword (weapon in hand)
        a +0 axe
     Armour
        an uncursed +0 ring mail (being worn)
        an uncursed +0 orcish helm (being worn)
     Comestibles
        an uncursed food ration
     Wands
        a wand of digging (4)

>ZAP WAND

You must specify a direction to zap the wand.

>ZAP WAND EAST

An octarine flare bursts from the tip of the wand, and strikes the eastern
wall. The stones disolve where the  magical energy touches, leaving a
passage leading east.

The grid bug bites Fido.
Fido bites the grid bug. The grid bug is killed!
The Kobold is almost upon you!

>EAST

You flee through the eastern passage, and Fido follows you.

**


Alternatively, I wouldn't be surprised if Andrew's entry to the '97
competition *is* an Rogue-like game (with the traditional Rogue-like
interface), written in Inform.

--
--
Support the anti-Spam amendment!      /<-= Admiral  Jota =->\
Join at http://www.cauce.org/       -< <-= jota@tiac.net =-> >-
                                      \<-=- -=  -=-  -= -=->/


From carl@earthweb.com Fri May 16 09:22:54 MET DST 1997
Article: 23197 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Carl Muckenhoupt <carl@earthweb.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Number of rooms in Enchanter (was Re: Number of IF gamers world-wide)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:24:55 -0400
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Allen Garvin wrote:
> 
> Nifty, I'll have to do this!  Speaking of other completely pointless things
> to do with infinity in Infocom games, I once killed myself 3277 times in
> Zork II so that my score wrapped around around to positive 30 thousand...
> 

And people ask me what good I/O redirection is...

-- 
Carl Muckenhoupt		carl@earthweb.com
EarthWeb			http://www.earthweb.com/


From scythe@u.washington.edu Fri May 16 09:23:12 MET DST 1997
Article: 23196 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: scythe@u.washington.edu (Dan Shiovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Foolish question
Date: 15 May 1997 20:33:49 GMT
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In article <5ld12q$4unq@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
Michael Blakeman Cleveland <clevelan@cae.wisc.edu> wrote:
>jota@tiac.net (Admiral Jota) writes:
>
>>Actually, I've been wondering how long it'll be before someone does a
>>parody of a Rogue-like game in IF -- kinda like that DOOM parody in TADS a
>>while back.
>>[example snipped]
>
>I was thinking something more like:
>
>T ROOM
>You are in a room extending approximately 20 feet in every direction.

You see forty periods here.

>EXAMINE PERIOD
It looks like the floor.

--
dan shiovitz scythe@u.washington.edu shiov@cs.washington.edu
slightly lost author/programmer in a world of more creative or more 
sensible people ... remember to speak up for freedom because no one else
will do it for you: use it or lose it ... carpe diem -- be proactive.
my web site: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~scythe/home.html some ok stuff.


From erkyrath@netcom.com Fri May 23 13:56:59 MET DST 1997
Article: 23324 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Planetfall: The Search for Floyd
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Susan (SusanED@concentric.net) wrote:
> 	Whenever a discussion of the best all time adventure comes up "A
> Mind Forever Voyaging" and/or "Planetfall" is mentioned by a number of
> people.  There remains a lot of curiosity about pure text adventures
> to this day.  Would it BUST Activision if they took their blinders off
> for once and let "Infocom" produce a real text only adventure again?

Would it bust them? No, of course not. Would it make them a lot of money? 
Well, no; not to my knowledge. So what reason do they have to do it?

In any case, since none of "Infocom" work for Infocom/Activision these 
days, it'd be a bit silly. It's not like they'd be allowing old expertise 
to surface again.

> I don't see how they could do as much damage as Activision did to Zork
> with Zork Nemesis.

Damage? From Activision's point of view, there was no damage. The game 
made money and they're working on a sequel. Old-timers like me may rant 
about "not being true to the Infocom conception of Zork", but that's 
simply not something they care about.

> 	Another side of this is just what is that gifted guy Steve doing
> anyway? 

Steve Meretzky? Working on a graphical game called "The Space Bar".
See http://www.segasoft.com/space/main.html

> And what is Scott Adams doing with his "full sentence"
> parser?

Dunno.

> 	Look, I cannot get back into pure text adventures until someone
> pulls off something significant against graphic adventures.  So far,
> since Infocom folded, nothing has happened except horsing around.
> With all the computer power we have today I would have thought someone
> would have come out with some amazing AI parser stuff.  If there is
> nothing you can do to compete against pictures why not focus on vastly
> improving text parsers?

But I strongly disagree with this paragraph. I feel like someone is 
insisting "I can't get back into reading novels until they're all 
interactive electronic multimedia devices." Yeah, it might be cool -- and 
it might not -- but that *does not* mean that the original stack-of-printed-
paper novel is obsolete. People still write them, and some of them are 
very good.

A super-whizbang parser might make for good games. It might be a total 
waste of CPU time. I think there are advantages to the standard IF parser 
that would be lost with any massive change -- in particular, we all know 
how it works, and we can all figure out how to express ourselves in it, 
because it's too dumb to understand more than a couple of possible 
phrasings. It's restricted, but the restrictions are well-known.

Now if someone invented a better parser and we all played it and got used 
to it, then that advantage would return. That would be fine too. 
  BUT:

I'm not heading down that track. I'm trying to create good stories in IF, 
in an *established* genre and interface. I'm experimenting largely on two 
fronts: the use of regular, static fiction techniques (and, hopefully, 
just plain good writing) in IF, and exploring techniques of storytelling 
which *aren't* available in static fiction. 

That's a pretty broad range, obviously, and I've got my hands full doing
it. 

And if you think my work is just "horsing around", well, I think you smell 
funny. And your socks are mismatched. Nyah.

--Z


-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 15:24:55 MET DST 1997
Article: 23471 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Z3 archives, anyone?
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:13:21 +0100 (BST)
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In article <erkyrathEAyDAz.AID@netcom.com>, Andrew Plotkin
<URL:mailto:erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:
> 
> Pres Nevins (preston@mars.dtinet.or.jp) wrote:
> > Now my question: In its current incarnation, YAZI can only handle Z3 format
> > (Z5+ is reportedly on its way). The ftp.gmd.de IF archive has zillions of
> > Z5 files, but is pretty much dry of Z3. I realize that Z3 is an old format,
> > but has noone made anything for it? Or have the old versions of the games
> > been bumped off of the archive to save space in favor of the newer
> > versions?
> 
> It's really that nobody has made any. I doubt there are any you haven't 
> already found on gmd.de.
> 
> At the time Inform really got rolling, there weren't any platforms that 
> were limited to Z3-only. Not that I know of, anyway. ZIP had been ported 
> to PC, Mac, Unix, Atari, Amiga, Acorn... yes? And it handled Z5 games. 

Yes, although when Inform was first nursed into life (in April 1993)
there were a number of Z3-only interpreters about: Z5 decipherment was
a recent development.  "Zip" was always the top of the range in the
early days -- you should have seen "pinfocom", "zterp", etc., and even
"ITF" was ropey around the edges.

> Z5 games can be larger than Z3 games, they can have boldface and italics,
> and they have a more flexible status line. And everyone could play them. 
> There just wasn't much reason to use Z3. 
> 
> I think (again) that YAZI is the only modern interpreter that's limited to 
> Z3. Just find the author and convince him to get off his butt. :) 

There is still an issue with memory on some hand-held machines:
Psion 3As have trouble playing really big Z5s like "Jigsaw", I've
been told.  But if the Newton has more than 256K of memory free
(and surely it must!) then there should be no problem.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From earendil@ Sat May 31 14:48:02 MET DST 1997
Article: 23480 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Make $ MONEY $ fast!!!
Organization: Gee Library, Texas A&M at Commerce
From: earendil@ (Allen Garvin)
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:23480

I've found a foolproof way to get all the money you need in Avalon!  First
you need to go to the monastery and get some manuscript, then write anything
you want on it.  Make your way back across the river, through woods (not
forgetting your herring!), past the swamp with the rodents of unusual size,
and into the post office.  Mail the manuscript to the Woodside Literary
Agency.  You'll automatically have three hundred gold sovereigns charged
>from your account, no matter how little you have.  Return for more manuscript,
and repeat the process until you have been charged at least 2147483900 coins.
Your money will overflow and then you can purchase all the shrubberies and
microwaves you need.


Allen Garvin


From joe.mason@tabb.com Wed Jun  4 10:17:59 MET DST 1997
Article: 23543 of rec.games.int-fiction
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Distribution: world
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: original Zork
From: joe.mason@tabb.com (Joe Mason)
Message-ID: <66.8669.1782@tabb.com>
References: <5mej0j$jj8$1@kodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM>
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"Re: original Zork", declared Matthew Daly; from the Vogon ship:

MD>Heh.  It's amazing how much veteran gamers take for granted when they
MD>play.

For example: "INVENTORY".  I played Zork for months without ever having 
heard this most important of words.

MD>Let's see ... the only other set of words that would probably be
MD>useful that you wouldn't have thought of is VERBOSE/BRIEF/SUPERBRIEF
MD>which either give you the description of a room every time you enter
MD>it, only the first time you enter it, or never.  (Of course, you can
MD>always LOOK to see a room description no matter which mode you're
MD>in.)  Oh yeah, and SCORE tells you how many points you have.

In Zork, "DIAGNOSE" will tell you how badly you are hurt, though it 
works differently in most other Infocom games.  And I've known people 
who never thought to type "WAIT" if they wanted to stand around doing 
nothing - they tended to drop objects and pick them up again in order to 
make time pass.  (Which I suspect may be the source of the indictment in 
the Temple against "the picking up and dropping of small objects". I 
wonder if the Implementors knew somebody who never figured out WAIT, 
too?)

Joe

 CMPQwk 1.42 9550 If all else fails, lower your standards.


From carl@earthweb.com Wed Jun  4 20:19:59 MET DST 1997
Article: 23557 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Carl Muckenhoupt <carl@earthweb.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: "Time: All Things Come to an End"
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:55:47 -0400
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Firestarter wrote:
> 
> This may look like blatant plugging, but I'm serious, "Time: All Things
> Come to an End" is a cracking game, and I can assure anyone who wants a
> great few weeks of problem-solving that they can't go far wrong with this
> little gem.
> 
> Amicably,
> 
> The Firestarter

I'm a bit surprised to see such positive comments about this game.  (I'm
even more surprised to see it described as "little".  This is a z8 we're
talking about here.)  See my review at
http://www.escape.com/~baf/if/e_tatctae.html for an alternate
viewpoint.  Chacun a son gout, I suppose.  Some of us dislike using
walkthroughs, some of us can't imagine playing a game without one.  I,
for one, can't imagine playing *this particular game* without a
walkthrough.

NB: If anyone is tempted to reply "What's wrong with difficult puzzles?
I like a challenge", all I can say is that it's easy to write a game
that no one will ever solve.  Difficulty, like most things, can be
overdone.  See +=3 (in the TADS section of the Archive) for a deliberate
example.


Incedentally, now that I've seen Graham Nelson on rec.arts.drwho a
couple of times, I've become emboldened to admit that I've read several
Doctor Who novels and continue to buy them occasionally.  The relevance:
the England, 1980 scene in Time is extremely imitative of the opening of
_Timewyrm: Exodus_.  To summarize both (mild spoilers):  A time
traveller visits a sparsely-attended festival in England, only to find a
historical display that reveals a history in which Germany conquered
Britain in World War 2.  He talks with a refreshment stand operator who
fears and hates the new regime, and then wanders around the grounds
until he discovers the corpse of a Nazi official murdered by
revolutionaries (who he later infiltrates).  He takes the official's ID,
uses it to gain entrance to top-secret archives, figures out that the
whole alternate timeline is the work of his current arch-enemy (a
non-human woman bent on destroying time), and goes back in time to set
history aright.  A bit too many points of similarity to be coincidence,
methinks.

Of course, this is not the first time an adventure game has stolen
material from a literary work without acknowledgement.  I think of all
the Name of the Rose material in The Abbey of Montglaine, for example. 
But that's stealing from Umberto Eco, and this is stealing from a Doctor
Who novel.

-- 
Carl Muckenhoupt		carl@earthweb.com
EarthWeb			http://www.earthweb.com/


From joe.mason@tabb.com Sat Jun  7 13:36:17 MET DST 1997
Article: 23617 of rec.games.int-fiction
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Distribution: world
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Characterization
From: joe.mason@tabb.com (Joe Mason)
Message-ID: <66.8712.1782@tabb.com>
References: <19970602231400.TAA07838@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 19:56:00 -0500
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:23617

"Characterization", declared Mordacai  from the Vogon ship:

M>     What I'm interested in is: How can writers of i-f create
M>characters like that, who the play will honestly CARE about, honestly
M>feel something regarding them.  This is a hard task I'm sure, but it's
M>effects could make an average game a masterpiece.  First, can anyone

If you ask me, its in the details.  The same thing that makes a 
character work in static fiction - they should be able to surprise you.  
They should be described with flair and compassion.  Add little details 
to them that the player will remember, and they will seem much more 
real.

For a slightly more concrete comment, I'd like to add that the 
characters should at least seem to have a life outside the game.  Dr. 
Perelman had his letter of resignation, and all the meetings he had to 
go to, which reinforced the fact that he doesn't just sit in his office 
waiting for PRISM to talk to him.  Edward from Christminster had his 
schoolwork.  Floyd has his memories - and finding Lazarus' breastplate 
was one of the things that made the character for me.

M>think of any instances where you've actually FELT some emotion
M>regarding an i-f character?  The only one that springs to mind is the

When Edward came out crying about his parrot, I went back and replayed 
the opening puzzle three or four times to see if there was any way I 
could do it without letting the parrot loose.  I was very disappointed 
in myself.

And, of course, the biggest heartbreaker of them all - the trapped boy 
in So Far.

Joe

 CMPQwk 1.42 9550 The scenery only changes for the lead dog.


From nulldogma@aol.com Sun Jun  8 14:34:16 MET DST 1997
Article: 23637 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: nulldogma@aol.com (Nulldogma)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: How about a story?
Date: 8 Jun 1997 05:35:37 GMT
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> Lately I've been curious about the reason Infocom died.  I've heard
> vague statements like "It's Activision's fault" and "They got rocked on
> Cornerstone" but have no idea if these things are true; could anybody
> enlighten the newsgroup with this tragic tale?

Very brief version:

Cornerstone, their database project, bombed spectacularly, and they had to
sell out to Activision to pay their debts. Activision left them alone for
a while, then fired virtually the entire staff (the rest quit). 

There's a good article on it archived at GMD somewhere.

Neil
---------------------------------------------------------
Neil deMause                            neild@echonyc.com
                  http://www.echonyc.com/~wham/neild.html
---------------------------------------------------------


From daly@PPD.Kodak.COM Thu Jun 12 22:45:48 MET DST 1997
Article: 23704 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: daly@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Characterization
Date: 12 Jun 1997 15:29:11 GMT
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:23704

Very mild Sorcerer spoilers ahead.  Not enough enough for a pagebreak.

Jon Petersen <enoto@ucla.edu>, if that is your REAL name, said: 
>dave andersen wrote:
>> I want to add that i feel Sorcerer
>> is the best of the Enchanter series because of Meretzky's talent
>> at not merely characterization, but storyline as well.
>
>What do other people think of Sorceror?  I've always thought that
>Sorceror, while fun, was the least successful of the Enchanter series. 
>Both the story and setting seem thin to me.  There are a lot of rooms,
>but many of them are empty or have nothing to do but get killed, which
>is of course a classic no-no.  

I think that part of the concept was to experiment with tons of
red herrings in the game, empty rooms and objects that served no
purpose in the game.  I mean, you might have played with that
floor waxer for weeks trying to figure out why the author would
have given it to you.

>There are a couple of great puzzles (the
>glass maze and of couse the time-travel scene), but a lot of the rest
>are weak 

The story that I've heard, which may or may not be true, is that
Sorcerer is a compilation of all of the puzzles that the Implementors
couldn't fit into Dungeon.  It certainly seems like more of an
amalgam of puzzles than a coherent world, although those two
specific puzzles are classics of the genre.

>(I particularly dislike the carnival scene for some reason). 

I didn't like it because there was a roller coaster, a flume, and a
haunted house that all served no purpose at all, except perhaps to
disguise the fact that the ball-throwing game was relevant.

>The spells are not as useful or as well-fleshed out as in Enchanter or
>Spellbreaker.  

I don't know what you mean by that.  The spells are useful enough to
accomplish your task, but that's sort of like saying that your legs
are long enough to reach the ground.  It was interesting that there
were two different spells that would allow you to fly, but you wound
up needing both of them to succeed.

>The endgame is decent but not as interesting as either of
>the other two games.  

That's true.  I suppose it's possible to screw the last few lines
up, but I think that you have to go out of your way to do it.
(i.e. not casting the "protect yourself from possession" spell
when you first see it).

>As for characterization, are there even any
>characters you can speak with (besides yourself)?  

There aren't a lot of games before Sorcerer that are much better
in that regard.  Deadline, Witness, and Suspended, of course,
although NPC interaction is the cornerstone of those games instead
of a sidepoint.  I think that Infocom must have been working on
generic NPC code at the time, because the games right after it
(Seastalker, Cutthroats, HGTTG) were the start of the trend of
great baseline NPCs in a game.

>My opinion of
>Sorceror is that the little details are brilliant (the long For Your
>Amusement list, the Encyclopedia, AIMFIZ MERETZKY), but the game itself
>is fun but not great (for Infocom; great for most anyone else).

Yeah, I mean it started the ball rolling on the time-travel puzzle,
and it did something interesting with mazes for a change.  Your
collection wouldn't be complete without it, but there's no reason to
play the game once a year for nostalgia.

-Matthew
--
Matthew Daly       I feel that if a person has problems communicating
mwdaly@kodak.com   the very least he can do is to shut up - Tom Lehrer
My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, of course.
--- Support the anti-Spam amendment!  Join at http://www.cauce.org ---


From carl@earthweb.com Mon Jun 16 13:11:24 MET DST 1997
Article: 23739 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Carl Muckenhoupt <carl@earthweb.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Characterization
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:30:01 -0400
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Matthew Daly wrote:
> 
> I think that part of the concept was to experiment with tons of
> red herrings in the game, empty rooms and objects that served no
> purpose in the game.

Can it really be called an "experiment" to do this after Planetfall?

> The story that I've heard, which may or may not be true, is that
> Sorcerer is a compilation of all of the puzzles that the Implementors
> couldn't fit into Dungeon.  It certainly seems like more of an
> amalgam of puzzles than a coherent world, although those two
> specific puzzles are classics of the genre.

Hmm, there may be something to this.  The coal mine scene does contain a
puzzle from the coal mine in Dungeon that didn't make it into the Zork
trilogy.  (The red palantir was originally halfway down a chute, just
like the time-travel scroll.  But when they broke up Dungeon into the
Zork Trilogy, the coal mine wound up in Zork 1 and the palantirs wound
up in Zork 2.)  And mailing in the matchbook certainly seems like
something that should have been a puzzle in Zork 1, where you have a
matchbook and a mailbox available.

> >The spells are not as useful or as well-fleshed out as in Enchanter or
> >Spellbreaker.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by that.  The spells are useful enough to
> accomplish your task, but that's sort of like saying that your legs
> are long enough to reach the ground.  It was interesting that there
> were two different spells that would allow you to fly, but you wound
> up needing both of them to succeed.

This sounds to me like a complaint about general applicability - that
is, in how many places can use use the spell and get more than an excuse
as a result?  I don't remember Sorceror being particularly bad in this
regard, but it's been a while.  I suppose there were some violations -
for example, the "magic land mines" that explode even if you fly over
them, or the frotz-proof haunted house in the amusement park.  All the
same, there were more places where izyuk could save you from death than
there were places where it failed to do so for no good reason.  And
there are several things that exist solely to make malyon less of a
one-use spell, so it's clear that Meretzky was aware of the problem.

Spellbreaker was much better at providing reusable spells, it's true. 
The best part, IMHO, was realizing that some of the spells you had grown
accustomed to casting on other creatures could also be cast on
yourself.  However, it also gave us a lot more lame excuses - most
spells cast on the roc or the guards at the manse, for example, just
fail for unsatisfying reasons.

Incedentally, I've been playing Spiritwrak lately, and although I find
it for the most part enjoyable, it also has a maddening tendency to
arbitrarily declare particular things invulnerable to particular
spells.  Perhaps it's more vulnerable to this sort of problem because it
has so very many spells, and because it so seldom prevents the player
>from re-visiting locations with new spells.


From mmurray@statler.cc.wwu.edu Mon Jun 16 19:08:40 MET DST 1997
Article: 23730 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Matthew Murray <mmurray@statler.cc.wwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Characterization
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:48:52 -0700
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On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Jon Petersen wrote:

> dave andersen wrote:
> > I want to add that i feel Sorcerer
> > is the best of the Enchanter series because of Meretzky's talent
> > at not merely characterization, but storyline as well.
> 
> What do other people think of Sorceror?  I've always thought that
> Sorceror, while fun, was the least successful of the Enchanter series. 
> Both the story and setting seem thin to me.  There are a lot of rooms,
> but many of them are empty or have nothing to do but get killed, which
> is of course a classic no-no.  There are a couple of great puzzles (the
> glass maze and of couse the time-travel scene), but a lot of the rest
> are weak (I particularly dislike the carnival scene for some reason). 
> The spells are not as useful or as well-fleshed out as in Enchanter or
> Spellbreaker.  The endgame is decent but not as interesting as either of
> the other two games.  As for characterization, are there even any

	Okay, I understand what you're saying, but I don't think I 
entirely agree with it.  I think that the style did have to be different, 
because it tells a different kind of story.  Remember that Enchanter and 
Spellbreaker both involve one mage--you--working for the betterment of an 
extremely large number of people.  In Enchanter, you are a novice magic 
user trying to do this.  In Spellbreaker, you are an experienced magic 
user trying to use this, but in both, the goal is essentially the same.  
(Well, as you progress in Spellbreaker, the goal changes a little, but 
the idea essentially works.)
	But Sorcerer is different--it's much more involved, personal story.  You 
are trying to get Belboz back.  This is, essentially, a story about >you< 
doing something for >you<.  Yes, there are some, more indirect 
consequences of your actions (especially if you fail), but for the most 
part Sorcerer happens because of you and >for< you, so yes, it's a very 
different type of game, but I think it has to be.  It is the necessary 
bridge between Enchanter and Spellbreaker, and effectively represents the 
journey you make growing from a minor magic user to the most powerful of 
them all.  On this basis, I think the game utterly succeeds.  As the game 
is pretty much you against the world, the darker, more secluded, and in 
some cases scarier, style works toward what the game is trying to 
accomplish, rather than against it as far as I'm concerned.
	I see Sorcerer as the necessary link in the chain connecting 
Enchanter and Spellbreaker together.  Because it is the most personally 
involving, and because, emotionally, it's the strongest of the three, I 
think it's the best in the trilogy.  Spellbreaker and Enchanter both have 
their moments--quite a few of them--but overall, the emotional intensity 
of Sorcerer I think makes it the most memorable and most interesting.

> 	I agree with you about AMFV and Stationfall though.

	Well, I don't know about Stationfall, but for all intents and 
purposes, I consider A Mind Forever Voyaging a masterpiece.  I have yet 
to see a better computer game, and I sometimes doubt very highly whether 
I ever will.

===============================================================================
       Matthew Murray - mmurray@cc.wwu.edu - http://www.wwu.edu/~mmurray
===============================================================================
               The script calls for fusing and using our smarts,
                And greatness can come of the sum of our parts.
           From now on, I'm with you--and with you is where I belong!

                        -David Zippel, City of Angels
===============================================================================



From earendil@ Wed Jun 18 22:58:45 MET DST 1997
Article: 23844 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: What's the Cruelest Puzzle in IF?
References: <19970618073301.DAA23175@ladder02.news.aol.com> <33a7f117.0@news.tamu-commerce.edu> <5o962g$74c@fido.asd.sgi.com>
Organization: Gee Library, Texas A&M at Commerce
From: earendil@ (Allen Garvin)
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:23844

In article <5o962g$74c@fido.asd.sgi.com>,
John Francis <jfrancis@dungeon.engr.sgi.com> wrote:
>In article <33a7f117.0@news.tamu-commerce.edu>, Allen Garvin <earendil@> wrote:
>>In article <19970618073301.DAA23175@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
>>LFrench106 <lfrench106@aol.com> wrote:
>>>What is the Cruelest puzzle in all IF? By cruel, I mean a problem so
>>>complicated or in-jokelike (etc.) that it could be used as torture device.
>>>
>>>A few examples follow:
>>>
>>Spoilers to Curses, Suspect, Enchanter, and others
>>
>>
>>My list would of annoying puzzles include 
>>- the dispel magic scroll from Enchanter, which solves 3 different puzzles,
>>  but 2 of which have alternative solutions
>
>I really liked this!  The description of the scroll in question makes it
>pretty clear that using it to solve light-weight puzzles is not the thing
>to do, so you have a very good idea that you need to find an alternative
>way of solving the earlier puzzles.  But usng the powerful scroll let you
>carry on exploring without getting blocked. 

My problem was that the solution to gaining entrance to the guarded tower
was quite non-obvious.  You had to wait for the adventurer to show up in
the actual room, then you had to point at the door or tell him to open it for
you.  It took me a few weeks to figure it out.

>>- The last point of Dungeon, which, in homage to the last point of Adventure,
>>  is even more impossible to figure out yourself.
>
>Again, I disagree.  It's fairly straightforward (the same puzzle was
>used in one of the Enchanter trilogy, and nobody complained about that).

It was in Sorcerer, and it was not unreasonable there. 

	>READ MATCHBOOK
	(taking the depleted matchbook first)
	"Amazing Vilstu Potion!
	
	Get by without breathing! Amaze your
	friends! Be the first person on the
	block to own some!
	
	Order today by dropping this in any
	mailbox. Our shipping department will
	use the latest in temporal travel
	techniques to insure that your potion
	arrives the same day you order it!
	(Orders received before noon will
	arrive the day before you order)."


It's quite explicit what one must do to send for the potion.  Plus, it's
impossible to get far in Sorcerer _without_ acquiring the potion.  There are
so few rooms and items in the opening game, it is easy to try anything for
which there is even a vague hint.  In Dungeon the text is:

		[Close cover before striking BKD]

		You too can make BIG MONEY in the exciting field of
				PAPER SHUFFLING!

	Mr. TAA of Muddle, Mass. says:  "Before I took this course I used
	to be a lowly bit twiddler.  Now with what I learned at MIT Tech
	I feel really important and can obfuscate and confuse with the best."

	Mr. MARC had this to say:  "Ten short days ago all I could look
	forward to was a dead-end job as a engineer.  Now I have a promising
	future and make really big Zorkmids."

	MIT Tech can't promise these fantastic results to everyone, but when
	you earn your MDL degree from MIT Tech your future will be brighter.

		Send for our free brochure today!

This sounds like one of the many silly jokes of Dungeon, not be taken
seriously.  Especially since you can't close (or open) the matchbook cover
before or after striking a match.  And you must type "send for brochure".
Interestingly, the verb action "send for" exists in Zork I, but it does
nothing.

And then you have to notice the stamp affixed to the brochure, and remove it
in order to get the point.

-- 
Allen Garvin
------------
earendil@faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu
http://faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu/~earendil


From vlaviano@davinci.gmu.edu Thu Jun 19 17:16:31 MET DST 1997
Article: 23847 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: vlaviano@davinci.gmu.edu (Vince Laviano)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: The Bank of Zork (Spoilers)
Date: 18 Jun 1997 17:12:04 GMT
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA
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Allen Garvin (earendil@) wrote:

: Far more people have complaints about the Bank of Zork from Zork II.  Is 
: there anyone who can truly explain it?  I can do it from memory, but I've 
: never heard a reasonable rationale for the way it works.

The rationale (as I understand it) is this:

1) The bank has an alarm. It is triggered if you try to leave the Depository
   via the east or west exit while carrying either the portrait or the bills.
2) So you need to find another way out of the Depository with the treasures.
3) The north wall of the Depository is a portal. You can walk through the
   north wall to arrive at one of four locations.
4) When you walk through the north wall, your destination is determined by
   the direction from which you entered the Depository:

   from the east (East Viewing Room) --> portal leads to East Viewing Room
   from the west (West Viewing Room) --> portal leads to West Viewing Room
   from the south (Chairman's Office) --> portal leads to Small Room
   from the north (by walking through the south wall of the Small Room) 
       --> portal leads to the Vault

5) So, after gathering the treasures: 
 
   Drop them (so as not to set off the alarm) and enter either the East or
       West Viewing Room.
   Return to the Depository.
   Pick up the treasures.
   Walk through the curtain, which now leads to the viewing room that you
       just visited (because of the direction from which you entered the
       Depository)
   Now you have bypassed the alarm, and you have the treasures.

See? It makes perfect sense. :)

Vince Laviano
vlaviano@cne.gmu.edu


From jfrancis@dungeon.engr.sgi.com Thu Jun 19 17:17:21 MET DST 1997
Article: 23848 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jfrancis@dungeon.engr.sgi.com (John Francis)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: What's the Cruelest Puzzle in IF?
Date: 18 Jun 1997 17:32:00 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:23848

In article <33a7f117.0@news.tamu-commerce.edu>, Allen Garvin <earendil@> wrote:
>In article <19970618073301.DAA23175@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
>LFrench106 <lfrench106@aol.com> wrote:
>>What is the Cruelest puzzle in all IF? By cruel, I mean a problem so
>>complicated or in-jokelike (etc.) that it could be used as torture device.
>>
>>A few examples follow:
>>
>Spoilers to Curses, Suspect, Enchanter, and others
>
>
>>The mousehole in Curses.
>
>Talking to the hole seemed a natural solution, since you could no longer
>see the robot.

This is one of the reasons why I like to play these games in partnership
with a colleague of mine.  I don't find it at all natural to talk to the
hole.  I tried things like SHOUT "xxx" INTO HOLE.  My colleague thought
of talking to the hole, which would never have occurred to me.

[snip]

>Far more people have complaints about the Bank of Zork from Zork II.  Is there
>anyone who can truly explain it?  I can do it from memory, but I've never
>heard a reasonable rationale for the way it works.

I didn't have any trouble with this.  Walked in from the west, walked through
curtain, ended up in a viewing room.  Next time I entered I came in from the
East, walked through the curtain, and ended up in a *different* viewing room.
Insight one - where you end up seems to depend on how you entered the area.
At this point it was obvious what to do next - enter the room from the third
possible direction (from the Chairman's office to the South). Sure enough,
you get somewhere else.  Unfortunately it doesn't seem useful, so all you
can do is leave (once you work out how to do that).
Some time later (a few minutes, IIRC) insight two arrived - that meant I'd
(re)-entered the important room from a new direction (by walking South).


>>The Treasure Case in Zork 1/Dungeon (Come on, how many of you really
>>understood you needed to do that until you actually tried?)
>
>Didn't the instruction book explicitly explain it?  I think I understood it 
>right away (it was 15 years ago, though).

What's the problem here?  There is a trophy case - seems like an obvious
place to store treasures.  Far more obvious than in Adventure, where you
had to put some stuff in the Well House and some in the treasure chest!
>
>>Any other nominees and/or votes?
>
>My list would of annoying puzzles include 
>- the dispel magic scroll from Enchanter, which solves 3 different puzzles,
>  but 2 of which have alternative solutions

I really liked this!  The description of the scroll in question makes it
pretty clear that using it to solve light-weight puzzles is not the thing
to do, so you have a very good idea that you need to find an alternative
way of solving the earlier puzzles.  But usng the powerful scroll let you
carry on exploring without getting blocked. 

>- In Suspect, you have to tell the detective about the weather.  If you
>  don't, there's no way to win.  I played Suspect for 3 years before I bought
>  a hint-book and figured this out.

I never could get into the detective stories - I found the whole concept
irritating.  I felt they violated the principle that you could, in theory,
win the game by never making a wrong move, using only information gained
>from that session.  Often the only clue you got as to the correct move in
a particular situation came from *not* making that move, and learning from
the earlier failures - information your 'character' could not have.

>- In Hitchhiker's Guide, the fact that the "thing that your aunt gave you
>  but you don't know what it is" is a container.

But this is *meant* to be annoying, no?  Anyway, if you don't know what it
is, it seems reasonable to try various operations on it.  I put my tooth-
brush in it.

>- The last point of Dungeon, which, in homage to the last point of Adventure,
>  is even more impossible to figure out yourself.

Again, I disagree.  It's fairly straightforward (the same puzzle was
used in one of the Enchanter trilogy, and nobody complained about that).

-- 
John Francis  jfrancis@sgi.com       Silicon Graphics, Inc.
(415)933-8295                        2011 N. Shoreline Blvd. MS 43U-991
(415)933-4692 (Fax)                  Mountain View, CA   94043-1389
Unsolicited electronic mail will be subject to a $100 handling fee.


From daly@PPD.Kodak.COM Sat Jun 28 18:51:15 MET DST 1997
Article: 24061 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: daly@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Magic toyshop: HELP!
Date: 27 Jun 1997 12:40:41 GMT
Organization: Eastman Kodak Company
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <5p0cc9$2u0$1@kodak.rdcs.Kodak.COM>
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:24061

olorin@world.std.com (Mark J Musante), if that is your REAL name, said: 
>A. De Lisle (xxxrad@crl6.crl.com) wrote:
>> The combination of the lock is best done by finding the posted numbers.
>
>Best?  I can't agree with that.
>
>The way I "solved" it (again, not the best way) was by writing a
>brute-force searching program.  It was fun to write, and had the
>advantage of being able to find more than one solution to the
>problem -- one of which was *not* (to my surprise) symmetrical.

Oh now, it's really not all THAT difficult.  I would be interested
in seeing the non-symmetric solution, though.

>If you're interested, the puzzle is reproduced below.  The
>solution is left as an exercise for the reader. :-)
>
>Copied from the Magic Toyshop source code, by Gareth Rees:
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>! The idea for this puzzle is shamelessly stolen from Raymond Smullyan's
>! "Monte Carlo Lock" puzzle in his book "The Lady or the Tiger?"  That book
>! has a machine which operated on strings of digits by the following rules:
>! 
>!     2X2 -> X
>!     if X -> Y then 3X -> 2Y
>!     if X -> Y then 4X -> YY
>!     if X -> Y then 5X -> the reverse of Y
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Just to make this complete, the puzzle was to provide a fixed-point for
this function, i.e. a number that would "produce itself" in the context
of the machine.

HINT


The only numbers that the machine can process are numbers of the form
A2B2, and the output is the operations specified by the digits in A
applied to B in reverse order.  For instance, 5442B2 gives you the
reverse of the double of the double of B.

Now, find and exploit a number A such that A2B2 produces B2B2 for all
B.

SPOILER


Finding A is pretty easy: you want the double of the reverse of the
"2-appending" of the reverse of B, so A = 4535.  In other words,
45352B2 produces B2B2 for all B.

Specifically, taking B = A, we get that A2A2 produces A2A2, exactly
what we want.  So a number that produces itself in the machine is
4535245352.  (This is in Smullyan's machine, not Gareth Rees'.
The machine in Toyshop is a slight bit more complex, but you should
be able to work it out.)

-Matthew
--
Matthew Daly       I feel that if a person has problems communicating
mwdaly@kodak.com   the very least he can do is to shut up - Tom Lehrer
My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, of course.
--- Support the anti-Spam amendment!  Join at http://www.cauce.org ---


From jcompton@typhoon.xnet.com Sun Jun 29 10:58:55 MET DST 1997
Article: 24030 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jcompton@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Difficulty level of "best" IF games
Date: 26 Jun 1997 07:54:33 GMT
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Lovecraft (lovecraft@aol.com) wrote:

: My favorite Infocoms were Witness, Enchanter, Trinity, LGOP, and
: Planetfall. I could at least achive some feeling of competence. Have I
: gotten too old or something? 

No, you're right, most modern offerings have a steeper introduction, and I
think part of that can be chalked up to a lack of game package materials.
Infocom immersed us in the game through typically excellent boxes,
manuals, and toys.  The modern offerings, being freely available and
coming to us as data files only, don't have the ability to flesh out the
world before the fact for us, and many have no or very little introductory
material for the player.  We're just dropped into the gaming universe with
very little insight into what we're supposed to be doing.

This has caused me a lot of trouble.  I don't think I would have been as
interested in solving the case in Witness, or in the setting of the piece,
without the cheesy detective journal and the matchbook and the note and
telegram.  I don't think Wishbringer would have been nearly as engrossing
if not for the library book and the "stone."

One modern offering which I've had a very difficult time liking is Jason
Dyer's _The Mind Electric_.  After the 95 competition I remember
discussing the game with him.

Dyer's created a universe which I know makes a lot of sense to him.  We as
players should be able to make sense of what's going on.  Unfortunately, I
don't think we can.  That's because we're dropped into the game with very
little to go on and very few ways to really get in touch with where he's
coming from.  (More recent versions now have a short introductory page
that gives a bibliography of IF and other sources he used for
inspiration.)

Yes, The Mind Electric is a short competition entry, and it was done
without the resources of a company behind it.  But it's a good example of
a game which I feel is much more difficult to get into because the curve
has been set steep.  Dyer and I agreed to disagree on whether or not the
stuff in the game should make sense to anybody who isn't him, and that's
fine.

On the other hand, the controversial I-0 does a much better job of making
the player aware of what's going on.  You could argue that I-0 is
lighthearted and even shallow at times, but I think it compares favorably
in terms of getting the player started to Infocom titles which were
engrossing and forgiving.

1.  There's a lot of ways you can learn about your character and the world
around you in the early going.  The introduction gives you a very definite
sense of time, place, and mood.

1a.  Now, you could counterpoint and say that I-0 has much more familiar
surroundings than, say, Mind Electric.  To some extent, you'd be right.
But I wasn't raised in the desert, I've never been in the desert, I
wouldn't know what to do in the desert.  Yet I-0 makes me feel like I've
been equipped with at least some sense of familiarity, where Mind Electric
does not.

2.  The introductory sequence compares rather favorably for me to
Planetfall.  Perhaps a bit less obvious, but you've got enough very
visible clues around you to see a potential life-saving course of action.
There's also plenty of interesting and unproductive things you can do,
much like Planetfall aboard the ship.

The point of all this?  I'm not trying to turn this into a way to rate all
modern IF against Infocom, but I think Infocom's games were largely very
successful and very engrossing because they gave the player insight into
the world they were entering.  The MST3K games have met with mixed reviews
because, after all, if you're unfamiliar with the MST3K premise and
characters, you have no way to relate to the world you enter.

Quite a few of the modern offerings throw you into center stage totally
unarmed.  This can be an effective tool in a game (see Activision's non-IF
Hacker, see also Amnesia if you actually liked it), but I have a feeling
that in most cases it's an oversight, not a deliberate choice.

I know that these guys can't provide us with simulated parchment,
chocolate coins, and space fleet insignias.  But I think that for many of
us, just having a creative and illuminating "readme" or "info" or
introduction in the help system (as some have done recently) lends SO much
to a game that it really needs to be done.  Sure, Pick Up the Phone Booth
and Die doesn't require that you have a deep understanding of the town,
the phone booth, and your unstoppable urge to defeat it, but most other
games do need to give the player some sort of glimpse into the grand
design.

Jason Compton
jcompton@xnet.com
Editor, Amiga Report Magazine


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Sun Jun 29 10:58:57 MET DST 1997
Article: 24075 of rec.games.int-fiction
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Difficulty level of "best" IF games
Date: 29 Jun 1997 00:27:44 +0200
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[ Crossposted to r.a.i-f, since we're moving into the art of writing 
  IF, not just discussion of specific games ]

jcompton@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton) wrote:
>Lovecraft (lovecraft@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: My favorite Infocoms were Witness, Enchanter, Trinity, LGOP, and
>: Planetfall. I could at least achive some feeling of competence. Have I
>: gotten too old or something? 
>
>No, you're right, most modern offerings have a steeper introduction, and I
>think part of that can be chalked up to a lack of game package materials.
>Infocom immersed us in the game through typically excellent boxes,
>manuals, and toys.  The modern offerings, being freely available and
>coming to us as data files only, don't have the ability to flesh out the
>world before the fact for us, and many have no or very little introductory
>material for the player.  We're just dropped into the gaming universe with
>very little insight into what we're supposed to be doing.

I don't think this is the primary cause of the problem. Sure, the
"package material" is excellent for immersing the player in the world
of the game, but I've seldom had much help from it to actually solve
the puzzles in the game (apart from those needing references from the
packaging as a means of copy protection).

No, I think the reason is deeper, in the way the games were
written. The Infocom authors simply put a lot of effort into getting
the player really hooked on the game before he/she encountered any big
difficulties. They were also very good at avoiding the opposite
pitfall (which you also see in "amateur" IF): a game where nothing at
all seems to happen for the first 50 rooms or so. The worst case I've
seen of this was a game whose name eludes me at the moment, where the
player starts in the middle of a featureless desert, with only two
lines of introductory text to explain what he was doing there, and
nothing interesting happening for quite a while.

And why did the Infocom authors pay so much attention to such issues?
Because they were professionals. They knew that their living depended
on their ability to attract players, and keep them hooked. Of course,
being a professional also involves having the resources to test these
aspects of the games before releasing them. And that is something we
amateurs lack, even those of us who are perfectly aware of the issues
involved. 

>This has caused me a lot of trouble.  I don't think I would have been as
>interested in solving the case in Witness, or in the setting of the piece,
>without the cheesy detective journal and the matchbook and the note and
>telegram.  I don't think Wishbringer would have been nearly as engrossing
>if not for the library book and the "stone."

Well, to each his own, I suppose. I must confess that I first played
"Wishbringer" with a pirated copy and without any of the props. I was
still instantly absorbed into the story. The stone would probably just
have distracted me - I was a bit too old to be impressed
by glowing pieces of plastic at the time.

>One modern offering which I've had a very difficult time liking is Jason
>Dyer's _The Mind Electric_.  After the 95 competition I remember
>discussing the game with him.
>
>Dyer's created a universe which I know makes a lot of sense to him.  We as
>players should be able to make sense of what's going on.  Unfortunately, I
>don't think we can.  That's because we're dropped into the game with very
>little to go on and very few ways to really get in touch with where he's
>coming from.  (More recent versions now have a short introductory page
>that gives a bibliography of IF and other sources he used for
>inspiration.)

I agree completely with you here. I found the world of "The Mind
Electric" to be totally incomprehensible until I had discussed it with
the author. Even then, I found the _puzzles_ to be incomprehensible -
they are perfectly logical after the fact, but that's of little help.

Incidentally, this is a shame, since "TME" is very well written in
other ways, and I found it hauntingly intense and graphic (in the
metaphorical sense, of course) despite its shortcomings.

>On the other hand, the controversial I-0 does a much better job of making
>the player aware of what's going on.  You could argue that I-0 is
>lighthearted and even shallow at times, but I think it compares favorably
>in terms of getting the player started to Infocom titles which were
>engrossing and forgiving.

Again, I agree with you.

>1.  There's a lot of ways you can learn about your character and the world
>around you in the early going.  The introduction gives you a very definite
>sense of time, place, and mood.
>
>1a.  Now, you could counterpoint and say that I-0 has much more familiar
>surroundings than, say, Mind Electric.  To some extent, you'd be right.
>But I wasn't raised in the desert, I've never been in the desert, I
>wouldn't know what to do in the desert.  Yet I-0 makes me feel like I've
>been equipped with at least some sense of familiarity, where Mind Electric
>does not.

But this is simply good writing. Adam Cadre does what every good
author should do: describes his setting and characterizes his
protagonist to the extent that we can put ourselves in the
situation. Dyer, on the other hand, despite his excellent prose and
haunting imagery, fails utterly in these respects.

I'd like to add another competition game as an example of how an
author can immerse the player in his world by providing background
material: "Sherbet". Graham Nelson's notes to the game serve much the
same function as Infocom's enclosed "extras".


-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------
     Not officially connected to LU or LTH.


From xxxrad@crl6.crl.com Sun Jul  6 20:45:38 MET DST 1997
Article: 24095 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: A. De Lisle <xxxrad@crl6.crl.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: How old are we?
Date: 29 Jun 1997 20:45:08 GMT
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Kayrun <kayrun@aol.com> wrote, and I quote:
:K> 20, 21, 19, 17,.......Hmmmm.....this is getting depressing!  
:K> I'm twice as
:K> old as some of you!!

Don't weep.  in a few months I will be three times as old as one
that is 23.  In my youth, the computer had not been invented or
at least not for the common folk.  I found out about computers
when my son was studying them in college.  I bought a toy to
play with and programmed in BASIC for a few years before I
discovered adventures (1984).  I play some of the platform games,
but my real love is text adventures.  Some for the Color Computer
were listed in machine code, so no problem.  Eventually a company
included all the Tom Mix graphic adventures in the subscription.
<email address is altered--delete xxx>  


From u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu.xxx Sun Jul  6 20:45:45 MET DST 1997
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Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:22:02 -0400
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On 26 Jun 1997, Mordacai wrote:
>I beat you all, at 17.  I didn't exactly live through the Infocom era, but
>my 5th grade teacher, who had, got me hooked on them.

<snort>  I'm old enough to be your mother.

bonni
N.B.: remove ".xxx" to reply
http://wvnvm.wvnet.edu/~u6ed4/bonni.html
__   __
IC | XC  |   bonni mierzejewska "The Lone Quilter"
---+---  |         u6ed4@wvnvm.wvnet.edu.xxx
NI | KA  |  Kelly's Creek Homestead, Maidsville, WV





From winalski@lspace.zko.dec.com Sun Jul  6 20:46:31 MET DST 1997
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From: Paul S Winalski <winalski@lspace.zko.dec.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: ZORK universe copyright?
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 19:52:14 -0400
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Gunther Schmidl wrote:
> 
> Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> 
> > The word "Zork" is a different matter; it's not covered by copyright,
> > but I think it may be a trademark.
> 
> Which means? Sorry to say that I don't know the difference between
> Copyright and Trademark :(

Disclaimer:  I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

Copyright applies to published works or other works of art.  As 
the name implies, the holder of copyright has the sole right
to make copies of the work in question (modulo certain "fair
use" provisions).  Others must seek permission of the copyright
holder to make copies.  Copying the original characters in
a work is considered a form of copying the work.

A trademark is a name, slogan, or design used in commerce to
distinguish one's product or service from its competitors.
It's possible for the same word to be used as a trademark by
more than one company, provided that the uses are in distinct
markets and there is no possible confusion between the
products/companies (e.g., VAX computers vs. VAX vacuum
cleaners).

"Zork" indeed is now a trademark of Activision.  This means that
you can't call a computer game "Zork".  But you might be able
to create a game and say it is "set in the Zork universe",
provided you acknowledge "Zork" as a trademark of Activision.
That would not be an infringement of trademark.  Depending on
what aspects of the Zork Universe you borrowed, it might be
copyright violation, though.  For example, nobody else could
write stories about Sherlock Holmes until Arthur Conan Doyle's
copyright lapsed.  A game featuring Dimwit Flathead the
Excessive would probably be considered as infringing on
the copyright to the Infocom Zork games.

--PSW


From pinback@toledo.emi.net Sun Jul 13 18:18:31 MET DST 1997
Article: 24350 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Ben Parrish <pinback@toledo.emi.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: OK, I got SoFar working....
Date: 10 Jul 1997 03:26:09 GMT
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Now, keep in mind, this is my first shot at a text adventure in probably
about ten years or so, and I haven't been keeping up on things (shame on
me...)

I have the following comments/question:

Comment #1: This guy is a superb writer (and I know you're reading this,
so take another bow.  But you've already gotten fifty billion awards for
the game, so don't let it go to your head).  Did he used to be an official
Infocom guy, or is this just a hobby?  I don't know all the "players" in
the business.

Comment #2: When is it considered acceptable to cheat and get hints.  I
mean, I just got the game working today, but I'm already getting to a
point where I know I'm going to get frustrated, but I don't want to go
grabbing for hints on my second day.  

Comment #3: One of the problems I'm having which lead to comment #2 (which
was actually a question) is that it seems like there's an awful lot of
things which can make further progress impossible, but at the time,
there's little-to-no way of knowing this.  Was I just influenced too much
by the early game, and the rest is actually more lenient and free, or is
the whole thing like this?  And while were at it, how do I know how far I
am into the game?

Anyway, I like it, and I'm glad to see the genre is making a comeback
(isn't it?)  The spiffier the graphics in the new programs, the more I
wish for the old ones.

I'm reminded of one of the old, original Infocom magazine ads, saying that
their [type of] games had the best graphics of any game.  And now that
I've played So Far, it seems that it still holds true.

Cool.

Now how do I write one?  ;)


From kamamer@//no_uce//interlog.com Sun Aug  3 15:21:55 MET DST 1997
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From: karl mamer <kamamer@//no_uce//interlog.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,comp.sys.dec.micro,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Does anyone else remember Infocom games for RT-11?
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:30:38 -0400
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Ethan Dicks wrote:
> 
> Long, long ago (c. 1982), I was window shopping in the Digital Store on E.
> Broad St. in Columbus, OH (I had a PDP-8 in high school, but that's another
> story).  I remember seeing a Planetfall package high up on the wall that
> was labelled for RT-11 (on 8" disk).  I never saw one anywhere else.

Infocom had a tradition, nay a mania, for making sure its games were
released on as many platforms as possible.


From gkw@pobox.com Sun Aug  3 15:24:56 MET DST 1997
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Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 13:08:00 -0600
From: gkw@pobox.com
Subject: Re: New Zork text adventure from Marc Blank / NG Magazine Ad
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In article <33C58239.141C@eidetic.com>,
  mblank@eidetic.com wrote:

> I don't know why Activision would make the programmer's identity a
> secret.  Why not ask them directly?
>
> - Marc

Oh, they didn't Marc.  Don't, worry, I got full billing in the game right
after you and Mike.  They probably didn't mention it because of the
unlikelihood of anyone recognizing my name.  (Little do they know I'm
notorious on this tiny corner of the Internet.

Just to tell the whole  story now that the announcement is out:

I put in an application at Activision.	After an interview and looking at
two positions (junior programmer on Z:GI and level designer on Heavy
Metal), Laird asked me if I'd be interested in working on a text
adventure, and proceeded to drop the news that Marc Blank and Mike Berlyn
would be writing it.  I happily accepted and opened my fool mouth to say
that Inform was more portable than TADS, so we should write it in Inform.
 Of course, that meant learning Inform, which I did, in I would say a
fairly short amount of time.  I translated Underoos from TADS to Inform
as an exercise, and could ask intelligent questions about the parser, or
at least hard questions.

So, I got sent the text script of how the game should run, and began
programming it.  Mostly I cut and pasted the original text into my .inf
file and worked stuff around until it worked correctly.

I sent that off to Laird, they looked it over, sent it back for
corrections, and so on. I got to see a lot of how their debugging process
worked (just like my own system, basically, to my amusement.)

It was a neat experience, programming "the first Zork text adventure in
10 years" Maybe I should add "Obscure Skills: TADS and Inform
Programming" to my resume.

Marc is a very nice, helpful person, and he responded quickly to my
questions on game continuity and such.	I hope he's pleased with what the
game 'looks' like, and may no one ever see the source code that I wrote. 
It would embarass me to death.

Anyways, forgive the tiny lines, but this is posted under Dejanews, and
their text window is pretty narrow.

      Whizzard

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet


From carl@earthweb.com Sun Aug  3 15:25:05 MET DST 1997
Article: 24610 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Carl Muckenhoupt <carl@earthweb.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: New Zork text adventure from Marc Blank / NG Magazine Ad
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:20:48 -0400
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So I guess this makes Whizzard the world's first professional Inform
programmer?

-- 
Carl Muckenhoupt		carl@earthweb.com
EarthWeb			http://www.earthweb.com/


From katz@df.lth.se Sun Aug  3 15:29:34 MET DST 1997
Article: 24743 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Darius Katz <katz@df.lth.se>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Lesser known stuff from more known Steve Meretzky
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:18:56 +0200
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C.E. Forman wrote:
> 
> Darius Katz <katz@df.lth.se> wrote:
> >The other day I began to play an older graphic adventure game from
> >Microprose called 'Rex Nebular and the Cosmic Gender Bender'. Included
> >in the package is a mood-enhancing, background-setting booklet which
> >contains Rex Nebular's log-entries from some time back.
> >
> >The credit page says it was written by Steve Meretzky. I wonder why they
> >didn't make any fuss about it on the cover?
> >
> >The booklet is hilarious, though.
> 
> That's because Meretzky only penned the booklet, not the game itself.
> 

Er, well, I understood that. I was rather thinking like this:

The cover of many books and graphic novels I've read mentions the fellow
who wrote the introduction. Often that person only wrote a page or two,
but his name is mentioned anyway in order to attract people.

Since, Mr Meretzky is rather known on the world of computer-gaming, not
to mention adventure-gaming, Microprose could have used his name on the
cover to attract people such as myself. I, for one, would certainly have
picked up Rex Nebular some years earlier if I had known Mr Meretzky was
involved in it, no matter how.

So, where does that put Mr Meretzky then? Guilty or not guilty (of being
a famed, funny, witty and much beloved Creator of Other Places, Builder
of Better Worlds and above all a writer of plain good old adventure
games?

---
Darius Katz
katz@df.lth.se


From graemecree@aol.com Sun Aug  3 20:50:30 MET DST 1997
Article: 24836 of rec.games.int-fiction
From: graemecree@aol.com (GraemeCree)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Tongue in Cheek Games?
Date: 31 Jul 1997 06:11:20 GMT
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     I was reading the transcript of an old Compuserve conference
featuring some of the Imps, and one of the questions discussed
tongue-in-cheek games vs. serious ones, with the general consensus being
that the tongue-in-cheek games just sold better, various explanations
given for why.
     This got me to thinking about which of the Infocom games were
tongue-in-cheek, and which were not.  This is what I came up with:

    T.I.C. GAMES  (TONGUE IN CHEEK) 15
 Ballyhoo
 Beyond Zork:  The Coconut of Quendor
 Bureaucracy
 Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, The
 Hollywood Hijinx
 Leather Goddesses of Phobos
 Nord and Bert Couldn't Make Head or Tail of It
 Planetfall
 Sorcerer
 Stationfall
 Trinity
 Wishbringer
 Zork 0:  The Revenge of Megaboz
 Zork 1:  The Great Underground Empire
 Zork 2:  The Wizard of Frobozz

     N.T.I.C. GAMES (NOT TONGUE IN CHEEK) 20
 A Mind Forever Voyaging
 Arthur
 Border Zone
 Cutthroats
 Deadline
 Enchanter
 Infidel
 Journey
 Moonmist
 Plundered Hearts
 Seastalker
 Sherlock:  The Riddle of the Crown Jewels
 Shogun
 Spellbreaker
 Starcross
 Suspect
 Suspended
 The Lurking Horror
 Witness, The
 Zork 3:  The Dungeon Master

     There's room for disagreement here, of course.  Some may not agree
with my decision to put Zork 3 in the NTIC category, while all the other
Zorks are TIC.  Some might think that Trinity should be considered NTIC. 
Et cetera.
     Also, the NTIC category can cover a lot of ground, such as Arthur
(fanciful, but basically serious), to Infidel and Shogun (gritty realism).
     Thirdly, an interesting phenomenon is that frequently the NTIC games
had humourous documentation.  Spellbreaker, though a serious game had the
amusing Magic Equipment catalog as it's documentation.  Suspect had the
"Murder and Modern Manners" book, and Infidel had the famous "If you died
here, you'd be home by now" caption on its InvisiClues map.

     Here is a highly edited excerpt from the conference transcript in
question.  Be interesting to get people's reactions to it.

===================
(Compuserve Adventure Game Designers' Conference; August 23, 1990)

(Charles/HOST) "Virtually every game I have played on my computer is at
least
partially tongue-in-cheek.  What I am interested in is games with mature
themes or at least a more mature approach to their subjects.  Games that,
like good movies or plays, really scare a player, really make them feel a
tragedy, or even make them angry. What are each of you doing to try and
push
games to this next level of human interaction?"

(Steve Meretzky) Well, I think I already did that with A Mind Forever
Voyaging and it did worse (commercially speaking) than any other game I've
ever done and as Bob just said, we have to eat.  I'd much rather write an
AMFV than an LGOP, but unless I become independently wealthy, or unless
some rich benefactor wants to underwrite such projects, or unless the
marketplace changes a lot, I don't think I'll be doing an AMFV-like game
in the near future.  Sigh.

(Corey & Lori Cole) Computers are so stupid that even the smartest game
tends
to do silly things.  So it's easier to write a silly game.  Besides, the
development process on a humorous game to be more fun.  OTOH, Quest for
Glory II: Trial By Fire is fundamentally a very serious game in terms of
storyline.  But we kept lots of silly stuff in to break up the tension.  I
call it the "roller coaster effect", as we want the player to get
extremely intense about the game at points, but then have a chance to
catch his/her breath with comedy relief and plain fun.

(Bob Bates) My games are usually fairly 'mature', but when 90% of what a
player tries to do in a game is wrong, you have to keep him interested
while he is *not* solving the puzzle.  The easiest way to do this is
humour. (You don't want him mad at you, after all)  But I agree that what
we all strive for is to create emotions in the player - like we all had
when Floyd died in Planetfall. Now THAT's art.

(Roberta Williams) I agree with your sentiment that most adventure games,
at
least up to now, have been not quite "serious" in their approach to the
subject matter at hand.  I think the reason for that, for the most part,
is that professional writers or storytellers have not had their hands in
the design of a game; that it's been mostly programmer/writers who have
been the ones behind them - me included - I'm not a professional writer,
though I'm trying to improve myself in that area.  With "The Colonel's
Bequest" I did attempt to try a new theme, a murder mystery, and to try to
make it more mature in its subject matter; more "plot" oriented.  I
attempted to put in classic "scare" tactics and suspense. I tried to put
in different levels of emotions from repulsion, to sadness, to hilarity. 
As to whether I accomplished those goals is up to the players experiencing
the game.  At least I tried!

(Mike Berlyn) Creating emotions is the goal, here if I understood the
question.  It isn't whether we write humor or horror -- it's how WELL we
do it. This poses a serious problem. Interactivity is the opposite thing
that most well, ALL storytellers, regardless of medium require to create
emotion.  Emotion is created by manipulation.  And it is impossible to
manipulate emotions when you don't know where the player has been, and you
don't know where the player is going.  Unless, well, I'll talk about Loom
in a moment.  In linear fiction, where you know what the "player" has just
experienced you can deliberately and continuously "set them up" so you can
NOT meet their expectations which is the essence of drama/humor/horror
etc.  So doing this in games requires a whole different approach. 
Utilizing, by the way, an experienced, linear writer only tends to make
games LESS game-ish, less interactive, and MORE linear. In a linear game
like Loom, you're not providing an interactive story or an adventure game
-- all you're doing is making the player *WORK* to "see the movie."

(Dave Lebling) Emotion comes also from identification with the character
in the story.  You can't easily identify in a serious way with a character
who looks like a 16x16 pixel sprite.  And if he/she is silly looking,
he/she isn't much more silly looking than if he's serious looking. For
example, Larry Laffer vs. Indy in Indy III.  So you are at a disadvantage
being serious in those sorts of games.  Maybe better graphics will improve
that eventually.  Second, in my experience serious games don't sell, and I
think Bob hit the point perfectly -- the player does a lot of silly things
even if there is no parser (running into rocks in the graphic games), for
example, and you can't stay serious. Infocom's more serious games sold
poorly, and I think few others have been tried, and most of those have
sold poorly too.



From tuck0052@garnet.tc.umn.edu Fri Aug  8 10:00:57 MET DST 1997
Article: 24933 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: tuck0052@garnet.tc.umn.edu (Jason M Tucker)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Playing a text adv without seeing one before
Date: 5 Aug 1997 21:13:42 GMT
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GraemeCree (graemecree@aol.com) wrote:

: you can do with AGT's instruction files), but who knew that people would
: be playing it 15 years later, or that Activision would release the program
: but not the docs?

That's exactly it.  How many people have these games on their hard drives
at work or home or school, where other people can just happen across them?
The conventions we use when writing and playing these games seem extremely
ordinary to us, but for someone just sitting down to Zork, without any
knowledge of those conventions, communicating would be difficult, at the
very least.

I think, however, that we gained a certain advantage by learning these
conventions early on, not just in the present games, but in other aspects
of our lives as well.  For example, if you are presented with a closed box
in a game, you try to open it.  If you can't open it, you check for a lock
and look for a key.  And if there is no lock and no key, then you really
start getting creative.  Sometimes I felt like an ape in the games when
presented with something.  First, you examine it, then you figure out
every last thing you can do with it, open it, break it, eat it, whatever.
And that has translated to the rest of the things I do.  If at first you
don't succeed, try something else, anything else, until you have to
restart.

Just my thoughts on the matter, now that I've lost track of what my
original thoughts were.

Oh, and I'm still looking for the Ten Commandments of Adventuring...
______________________________________________________________________________

	Jason Marc Tucker                       University of Minnesota
        P.O.Box 13226                           Middlebrook Hall
	Minneapolis, MN  55414                  412 22nd Ave. S.
        pager:  (612) 818-3555                  Minneapolis, MN  55455
        e-mail:  tuck0052@tc.umn.edu            IRC nick:  KingLouie
        Web:  http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m010/tuck0052  
______________________________________________________________________________






From owls@best.com Thu Aug 21 09:26:55 MET DST 1997
Article: 25133 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: owls@best.com (JID)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Real-life IF situations
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:56:24 -0800
Organization: The Trinity Guardian, San Francisco Bureau
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:25133

Do you ever find yourself in real-life situations where you find your IF
training serves you well? I know this is kind of a scary idea, along the
lines of the geek in that X-Files episode who says something about how he
didn't play D&D for years without learning a little something about
courage, but occasionally when things get too surreal I start to
hallucinate myself inside an Infocom game.

To wit (true story, not that it's all that interesting really...):

***

Outside Office Building
You stand in front of a massive corporate headquarters building in
downtown San Francisco.

>INVENTORY
You have a backpack, a watch (being worn), and a card. You have 50 cents
in your pocket.

>READ CARD
This is the number of the cab company you called over 30 minutes ago.

>DIAGNOSE
You are steamed.

>EXAMINE BUILDING
Just your average monolithic construction with big glass doors and
slippery marble walls.

>LOOK THROUGH DOORS
The lobby features a security guard's desk surrounded by plants, and, up a
few stairs, a bank of pay phones.

>CHECK WATCH
It is now 6:30. You're supposed to be meeting your friend in ten minutes.

>OPEN DOOR
The doors are locked. (Strange. Last time you were out here past 6:00, the
doors were still unlocked. Must be a new policy that no one bothered to
tell you about.) 

>DIAGNOSE
You are seriously steamed.

>KNOCK ON DOOR
There is no answer.

>WHERE IS SECURITY GUARD?
I see no security guard here.

>CHECK WATCH
It is now 6:40.

>%*&@!
A passing old lady hits you with her umbrella.
(Your score has just gone down.)

>EXAMINE WALL NEXT TO DOOR
Just your average slick marble wall. There is a large potted plant in
front of the wall.

>EXAMINE PLANT
The branches stick out every which way.

>MOVE BRANCH
Moving a branch reveals a small plaque in the wall containing a slot and a
couple of blinking lights.

>OPEN BCAKPACK
I don't know the word "bcakpack"

>OPEN THE ****ING BACKPACK ALREADY!
Okay, okay...jeez...opening the backpack reveals a day planner, a wallet,
and a plastic ID holder.

>EXAMINE ID HOLDER
It contains a bus pass, your ID card (nice picture! <snicker>), and a
security card.

>TAKE SECURITY CARD
Taken.

>PUT SECURITY CARD IN SLOT
Done.

>OPEN DOOR
The glass door opens reluctantly.

>ENTER
You re-enter the building and head straight for the bank of pay phones to
bitch out the cab company.
(Your score has just gone way up.)

***

I mean, it's no big deal, but I was SO mad, and it was SO weird that the
doors were locked, that I kind of switched into Zork mode. A little scary,
really...especially when I then couldn't get out again, but I'll save that
for the sequel.

Joey

****************************************************
American Gothic fanatic or just a tourist in Trinity?
Read The Trinity Guardian: http://www.best.com/~owls/AG/
****************************************************
Guildenstern: He's -- melancholy.
Player: Melancholy?
Rosencrantz: Mad.
Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
Cheshire Cat: Oh, you can't help that, we're all mad here.
(From "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern in Wonderland")
****************************************************
Johanna "Joey" Drasner: owls @ best . com (San Francisco)
****************************************************


From mordacai@aol.com Tue Aug 26 14:10:18 MET DST 1997
Article: 25224 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: mordacai@aol.com (Mordacai)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Gay characters in IF
Date: 26 Aug 1997 02:49:00 GMT
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>>Point being, unless the author is trying to make a political point, it's
>>just extra fluff to tell us those unimportant details.
>
>

Um, at the risk of being flamed here, I rather disagree with that.  This
is actually a question I've been seriously considering.  The stuff I've
written if-wise are more story than game (a point which has been argued
before and needs not be dudged up again ;) and therefore are very
character oriented.  Within the scope of what CAN be done, it's been my
foremost goal to make the characters in the stuff I've done as interesting
and real as possible, rather than just tools for puzzles.  Albeit, I'm far
>from good at such characterization, but the theory is sound.

That said, I consider a choice about a character like his sexuality is a
very important one.  If it is well founded and developed in the game, it
can be considerably more than just fluff.  Of course, as in regular
fiction, making a character gay, JUST so you have a gay character is not
only pointless, but in bad taste.  Yet if it is done well, it can be a
profound character element.

Again at the risk of getting flamed, Sierra On-Line recently game out with
a game, Phantasmagoria II: A Puzzle of Flesh.  As far as the GAME went, it
was, simply, not good.  But the story was more intruiging than many I've
seen and, though the writing wasn't too sterling, the actors did as good a
job with it as they could.  To such an extent that, when the best friend
character died (a foregone conclusion, but nonetheless...) I actually felt
quite bad about it. This was in fact on of the few experiences where I've
actually felt anything about a character in a game.  And, I honestly
belive, that part of what made the character engaging enough for me to
sympathise with him was the fact that he was gay.  It was a unique
character choice, that opened up a lot of different options with his
character and made him more than the generic
best-friend-that-dies-ten-minutes-before-the-finale.  

Anyway, thank you for letting me vent there.  I think I'm going to go call
my boyfriend.   ;)

Ian Finley


From h0142kdd@joker.rz.hu-berlin.de Tue Aug 26 18:58:54 MET DST 1997
Article: 25105 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: h0142kdd@joker.rz.hu-berlin.de (Paul David Doherty)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: [WWW] Adventure Market
Date: 19 Aug 1997 08:39:28 +0200
Organization: Humboldt Universitaet Berlin
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[Seems like our first announcement didn't make it, so here's a repost]


*** NEWSFLASH *** adventure market now on-line ***

After months of fruitless beta-testing we have decided to 
unleash the (hopefully) long-awaited ADVENTURE MARKET onto the 
unsuspecting public.

Are you looking for the PDP-11 version of Deadline? Do you want 
to get rid of the TRS-80 version of Zork? Is the first edition 
of MS Adventure still missing from your collection? Or do you 
want to sell all those Infocom boxes gathering dust in your 
basement? Then post your advertisements on the Adventure Market 
WWW page and wait for responses to flood in...

Tell us if you like the page or not, whether you found any bugs or
have suggestions. We hope the Market will become a meeting place
for all interactive fiction fans.

The URL is
     http://spinndb.asfh-berlin.de/market/

These pages are sponsored by the Berlin Museum for Computer 
Game History.

Hope to see you soon,

-- Manuel Schulz (in association with PDD Web Design, Inc.)



From fake-mail@anti-spam.address Wed Aug 27 10:12:30 MET DST 1997
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From: fake-mail@anti-spam.address (Neil K.)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Gay characters in IF
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 22:40:37 -0700
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In article <5tus2i$8rd@decgate.bridgewater.ne.hcc.com>,
jkennedy@himail.hcc.com wrote:

> In <fake-mail-2508972251300001@van-as-11c01.direct.ca>,
fake-mail@anti-spam.address (Neil K.) writes:
> > Hm. So if I were to include a gay, lesbian, bi, non-white, female, etc.
> >character in my game I'd necessarily be doing so to make a political
> >point. But if I were to include a straight or white or male character in
> >my game then I wouldn't?
> 
> Well, I don't know so much about the "female" part, but otherwise
> yes, there is some truth in it.  Society is what it is.  You can hope to
> change it, or you can pretend it isn't there, or at least try to change
> it by seeming to pretend that it isn't there, but if you ever start
> actually believing that it isn't there, then you've crossed the line
> and become delusional.  (Moreover, an artist who completely forgets
> his audience is deluded not only about society, but about his art.)

 But whose society? I live in a city where there are more people of Asian
and East Indian origin combined than European. I live in a part of town
which is full of conservative Portuguese and Italian immigrants, lesbians
and crunchy granola hippies. I'm not white myself. This all seems pretty
real to me.

 I think people who believe the world is, to take a somewhat pejorative
example, some sort of idealized 1950s white American nominally Christian
suburbia are the ones who are delusional. The world is more complex than
that. Yet simply creating fictitious representations of anything but a
very narrow minority demographic of the world still seems to be held as
some sort of subversive political act.

 - Neil K.

-- 
 t e l a  computer consulting + design   *   Vancouver, BC, Canada
      web: http://www.tela.bc.ca/tela/   *   email: tela @ tela.bc.ca


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 27 11:09:11 MET DST 1997
Article: 25264 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Gay characters in IF
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:13:48 +0100 (BST)
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In article <irQMvGA26rA0EweC@highmount.demon.co.uk>, Neil Brown
<URL:mailto:neil@highmount.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> I'm not entirely sure what you mean about that last bit. Why would it be
> in bad taste to include a gay character just for the sake of it? If I
> were to write a sequel to The Wedding tomorrow, and decided that it
> would be nice to have a gay character or two, would that be in bad
> taste?

Actually "The Gay Wedding" would be a truly wonderful sequel to
"The Wedding".  Make everyone in it gay, lesbian or otherwise
nonconformist, including the narrator...

The "token" gay character on Roseanne, i.e. Leon, was one of the funniest
things in it, I thought.  (And since the subject's been raised already:
"[to Roseanne who's being petulant]... Well I want to be Liza Minelli
but we can't all have what we want!")  The presence of a gay character
opens up another batch of plot options for the programme, and widens
the range of jokes for the audience.  What's wrong in that?  The same
is true of non-comedy drama.

I've still yet to see a regular gay cast member of any of the Star Trek
shows, and it's a pity, I think, in a small way.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Aug 27 18:38:15 MET DST 1997
Article: 25277 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Gay commentary on gay chars.
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Lovecraft (lovecraft@aol.com) wrote:
> Well, this has been some thread. I'm glad to see most of it is positive
> but I must comment on certain phrases used by others.

> So I ask, why
> would it be so offensive to play a gay character? I play straights ad
> infinitum. I'm not offended. 

> And how is being gay pointless?

> And how does being gay make me immoral?

I think you're commenting on *phrases* rather than actual *arguments* 
here. I don't think anyone here has said that *they* would find it 
offensive to play a gay character, or that you are immoral. We've mostly 
been discussing the consequences of the fact that *some people* would 
find it offensive, and think you are immoral. That fact sucks but it 
can't be a surprise to you. 

As an author, I must realize that such idiots may play my games, even if
the thought is just "...and they can go play something else." 
 
Relevantly:

> There are many examples of film and literature that has gay characters for
> absolutley no reason. Maybe it's the author/filmakers experience that the
> world is made up of many different people. 

This is true, and I think the only reason it doesn't extend to IF is that 
our oeuvre is so small. (I love being able to say "oeuvre.") 

Someone said a couple posts up: if an IF protagonist was gay, it would
have to be the central fact of the game; otherwise it would seem so
unusual that it would *become* central, outweighing whatever the author
was really trying to say. I think this might be true the first time, but
what about the fifth such game? Once people get used to it, it wouldn't
*be* that unusual. 

> I am now commited to learning Inform, which I've been doing for a few
> months now, and writing IF's with only gay lead characters.

Mmm, let me anticipate one possible approach. It would be possible to 
write a game where the protagonist is gay, but this isn't mentioned until 
three-quarters of the way through the game, at which point it suddenly 
becomes relevant.

My humble advice is, don't. Or at least not at first. This approach was 
done in one game -- I won't say which, avoiding spoilers -- 
three-quarters of the way through the game tells you you're female. This 
got a bunch of complaints. It *was not* because people objected to 
playing a female character; that's been done before. 

If the first IF with a gay protagonist tries this, it's going to raise a 
bunch of complaints -- one from me. My magic crystal ball says that then 
the author will believe that the objections *are* to having a gay 
character, and stomp off, and then it will be a year and a half before 
anyone else dares raise the subject.

The magic crystal ball is often wrong, but I'd just as soon not find out.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From neil@highmount.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 27 21:15:57 MET DST 1997
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From: Neil Brown <neil@highmount.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Gay characters in IF
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:08:08 +0100
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In article <slrn606r7j.nmb.darin@connectnet1.connectnet.com>, Darin
Johnson <darin@usa.net.delete_me> wrote:
>And if you stick in a gay character, how do you out him?  Does he just
>come out and say "Hey, I'm gay"?  You certainly can't put it in the
>description "He looks like no one in particular, no distinguishing
>characteristics, blends right in with everyone, but you can see that
>he's gay."  

(If an author wrote descriptions like that, I suspect that not many
people would like his games.)

>If you can't tell if a coworker that you work in the same
>office with for a year is gay, how can you tell if an NPC in a game is
>gay (unless they're a swish or have some obvious stereotypes, but put
>that in a game and you'd offend straights and gays alike).
>
EXAMPLE ONE:

The phone rings.

> ANSWER PHONE

"Hello?" you say, having long ago given up the practice of reading out
your telephone number.

"Hi, its Phil. Is Dave over there? I've got my parents coming over in a
couple of hours and he's done a disappearing act. This is so typical of
him!"

(Plot continues. Game involves helping Phil to find his boyfriend and
make dinner before his parents arrive.)

EXAMPLE TWO:

>WAIT
You wait a moment.

The train finally pulls in at Cannock station, whereupon the doors slide
open and the crowds on the platform pour into the train.

You glance idly at the people as they fight each other for the remaining
free seats, but your eyes are suddenly drawn to an attractive stranger
who gets on alone and finds a seat without fuss. He has an unusual,
beguiling Medditerranean look about him, with a face that seems to be
always half-smiling. Probably straight, you think sadly, and turn to
gaze out of the window.
_______

A gay character doesn't have to be 'outed' (though I can envisage a
running joke where a band of militant gay rights activists make random
appearances throughout a game to try to 'out' characters, even if
they're straight, and abseil down buildings and wave banners). A
character can already be out, and the fact casually mentioned.

>The only way you're going to get a gay character into IF, is if that
>fact actually matters to the story or background, or a joke is being
>made, or a political point is being made.

It depends what you mean when you say it should matter to the story or
background. Say an author decided that it would be nice to have a little
love story running throughout his game. That author then decided to make
the couple gay, just for the sake of it, but didn't want to include any
'gay issues' or political point scoring. There was no particular reason
why the couple were gay, and indeed the story would have worked just as
well had they been straight. The characters themselves didn't consider
their sexuality an issue, and it didn't make them significantly
different from heterosexuals. In this case, the homosexuality of the
couple doesn't matter to the story or the background, there isn't a joke
being made and the author is not intending to be political in the
slightest.
______________

Neil James Brown
neil@highmount.demon.co.uk
http://www.highmount.demon.co.uk


From anson@ici.net Fri Aug 29 14:48:17 MET DST 1997
Article: 25373 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: anson@ici.net (Anson Turner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Zork Trilogy to be  released to the public
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 02:09:13 -0400
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In article <erkyrathEFHBMn.5w9@netcom.com>, erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew
Plotkin) wrote:

:Sure would be cool if they released the Mac version of Zork 2 at the same 
:time as the IBM version.

:> This proves my theory regarding registering any type of games:
:> Wait long enough and it comes out free.  :)
:
:Long enough being sixteen or seventeen years...


2013. Hegglebocker, an unfortunate victim of the Nifty Names craze of '99,
prepares to send forth a mighty fireball. Casting furiously, he watches as
the troll comes closer, swinging its bloody axe wildly. Suddenly, the
troll disappears. The spell fizzles and the world dissolves as the VR
system is shut down from without.

*Hey!* complains Hegglebocker telepathically. *What's the idea?*

*Nevermind this!* admonishes Fluflagen. *"Diablo" was just released for
free! _And_ it includes a preview of "Avalon II: The Revenge of the
Mechlobotic Forest-dwellers", due out in 2075!*

*Who needs this?* Hegglebocker rhetorizes, yanking the connector out of
the jack at the base of his neck. *I'd much rather play "Diablo"! Anything
to avoid the smell of troll.*


And the two intrepid gamers entered the Portron 600 and were whisked away.
One survived the trip. He was eventually killed by a fireball-equipped
troll.

Avalon II was never released, due to the recollapse of the universe.



Anson, generously assuming the release of Avalon I within the next 16 years.


From jkennedy@himail.hcc.com Fri Aug 29 17:00:00 MET DST 1997
Article: 25388 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: jkennedy@himail.hcc.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Gay commentary on gay chars.
Date: 29 Aug 1997 14:39:17 GMT
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In <SNXgWPAvIdB0EwyD@highmount.demon.co.uk>, Neil Brown <neil@highmount.demon.co.uk> writes:
>I don't know if I'm misreading posts, but some people
>seem to be suggesting that the only way these characters should be gay
>is if there is a gay-specific storyline attached to them, like coming
>out, or perhaps queer-basing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But there _is_ a legitimate argument for this, although a few aspects
of it are somewhat subtle.

1) No work of art is complete without an audience.

2) Among the majority of this present society, and virtually every
other civilized society to date (Hellenic being an exception, but it
compensated by its almost total disregard of women), homosexuality
is put somewhere on a line that runs from vice, to sin, to crime,
frequently with a considerable admixture of visceral disgust.

2A) Consequently, to use a convenient vogue phrase, homosexuality
is a "hot button" for many people.  Not only that, but the very
portrayal of gays is a "hot button" for many gays.  I know a
hell of a lot of gay men who _are_ fanatical about Judy Garland
or Maria Callas (to the extent, in fact, that I now find myself
puzzled that that "Babylon 5" hasn't resulted in a similar cult
for Mira Furlan); I also know a hell of a lot of gay men who _do_
habitually stand with their wrists held

l this.
i
k
e

(I've never been quite able to work up the nerve to ask why, but
I've seen literally dozens of instances.)  But there have already
been loud cries in this very thread about such things being bigoted
stereotypes.  So how _does_ an author work in a gay character?
Well, you can set the story in certain neighborhoods of New York
City or San Francisco, and make all the characters gay, or you can
make a character's gayness a central plot point, but you say you
don't want that.  So let's say you're doing a police adventure, and
you just happen to have one of the detectives mention offhand that
he's off to see his boyfriend -- what planet is this supposed to be
taking place on?  Whatever you do, there's going to be something
either exceptionable to many or hopelessly unlike reality, and so
you're going to have to make some kind of special effort.

It occurs to me now that there might be one possible exception,
and that would be to set the story in a university environment.
I am insufficiently au courant to say how well this could be
managed in the 1990's, so I'm going to ignore the possibility for
now, especially as it is a limited (and limiting) exception.

And (this is where we get back to point #1), the audience is going
to see this, and is going to know this -- that you went out of your
way to bring in a character and smack a big label on him saying
"LOOK!  A GAY MAN!".  And, frankly, after over a hundred years,
audiences are sick of being lectured.  (And why not?  Ibsen got
sick of lecturing almost as soon as he began doing it.)

Trying to tie up all these marbles -- if you think that, without
severely restricting your audience, you can casually drop in a
gay character as though it means nothing, then you're not
living in the same world I am.  It may mean nothing to you,
but to most people, the best you can hope to achieve is to
publicly wave a flag saying "Look at me, I just put in a gay
character, as though it were the most natural thing in the
world!"

And that is bad art.  Now, you may believe that it is good politics
(from a purely pragmatic view, I have at least some doubts)
to go ahead and sacrifice art for politics (Who was it who said
that some author had "sold his birthright for a pot of message"?)
and if you do, go right ahead.  But be sure it's a conscious decision
on your part, because 1) No work of art is complete without an
audience.

>Please supply us with details of who exactly said 'if you identify as
>straight, and moreover *want* to be straight, then you're a bigot!' I
>suspect that we're leaving the realms of IF here, and that you really
>wanted to say that to gay people at large. Certainly the phrase 'freedom
>of thought' seems to have come out of the blue, but on the other hand,
>my memory is terrible.

There is a post from one "Anson Turner" that can, I think, bear the
interpretation.


From MKST21C@prodigy.com Sun Aug 31 12:24:44 MET DST 1997
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From: MKST21C@prodigy.com (Chris Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Player/character in IF
Date: 31 Aug 1997 02:15:30 GMT
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erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:
>
>Jason M Tucker (tuck0052@garnet.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
>
>> I feel that the player is the LEAST important character in IF.  Face 
it,
>> you play a featureless, genderless, often naked person.  The player 
is
>> merely a mask, and we put our own emotions and mores into that 
identity.
>
>Except in all the games where this isn't true.

   There are two basic divisions of player/character in IF. One is where 
you play an 'amorpheus' person, someone very 'generic'. There's the 
adventurer in Zork I (we don't know anything about his past prior to his 
arrival at the white house; in fact, it's only stated or implied in Zork 
III that the Zork trilogy's adventurer is a male), and of course the 
detectives in Deadline and Witness, and the reporter in Suspect. We know 
next to nothing about these PCs, and are therefore free to imagine them 
as any race (and, at least in Suspect, as any sex) we'd like them to be. 

  Then there are games where you play someone specific; a character who 
has a name, a family, a past. Infocom produced three of those: 
Hitchhiker's, A Mind Forever Voyaging, and Plundered Hearts. But even in 
AMFV and Plundered Hearts, you're more or less free to put some of your 
own perceptions into the character; you're living that character's life, 
after all.
   (As for Hitchhiker's, I tend to agree with some articles in saying 
that the game makes you feel as if you ARE Arthur Dent. Like Arthur, 
you'll end up being bewildered by the situations, and arguing with fussy 
Sirius Cybernetics Corporation machines). 
   I've only really played one game where the character's emotions and 
mores are distinctly different from the player's, and that is Infidel. 
(The ending, in particular, doesn't really work for me, as it involves a 
punishment for something the character did before the game began--I'd 
have preferred including an alternate where your character is given a 
chance to atone for said misdeeds). 
   Overall, I would say that in almost all of the interactive fiction 
I've played, there is little doubt that the player assumes the role of 
the main character, whether it be a specific person or an ambiguous, 
unspecified 'adventurer' or 'detective'. The player is pretty much free 
to bring whatever emotions they want to the role. (However, sometimes in 
Plundered Hearts, Captain Jamison was so annoyingly dense that as the 
heroine, I wanted to 'dump' him in favor of someone who actually uses his 
head, but that's beside the point--of course, if Jamison was too smart, 
there wouldn't be much of a role for the player as the heroine). What one 
player is indifferent to, another may find very moving and emotional. 
While one player might dismiss Floyd as a 'one-dimensional' character, 
another might see Floyd as a very real person with feelings, hopes, and 
dreams. 
   And that's one of the real wonders of interactive fiction. Each player 
sees things differently...

                                                 Chris Lang
   



From MKST21C@prodigy.com Sun Aug 31 12:28:45 MET DST 1997
Article: 25459 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: MKST21C@prodigy.com (Chris Lang)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Emotion twisting IF
Date: 31 Aug 1997 03:02:27 GMT
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Russell Glasser <rglasser@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>Den of Iniquity wrote:
>> 
>>  Who has
>> been particularly emotionally moved by a piece of IF?
>
>        Me!  When I played Enchanter, and accidentally killed the 
turtle
>by sending it through the hammer without proper preparation, I felt
>horribly depressed and guilty for hours.
>        Of course, I **was** eleven at the time.
>
     Well, back when I was playing Planetfall, I got worried about Floyd. 
So worried that I wouldn't let him try crossing the rift with me--I was 
afraid he'd fall and be dashed against the rocks below. So I turned him 
off and went alone. I was about eleven or twelve at the time, I think.
      The first time Floyd volunteered to get the card from the mutants, 
I did some of his instructions, but blew it, and he never made it out. I 
got so upset that I didn't play the game for a while, and even then, it 
was a while before I brought myself to bring Floyd anywhere NEAR the Bio 
Lab. Like you and the turtle, I felt very depressed and guilty over it.
       Eventually, I managed to get over it. And eventually encountered 
one of the most moving and memorable scenes in Infocom's early works, in 
which Floyd gets the card, but at great cost to himself. Both this and 
the 'Lazarus breastplate' scene were tear-jerkers and not only made Floyd 
more than just a 'comic sidekick', it also made Planetfall more than just 
your average 'run around collecting what you need to save the world' game.
 Floyd's sacrifice definately helped increase the game's dramatic tension;
 the player goes on more determined than ever, knowing that if he fails, 
said sacrifice would be in vain.
    Later on, I encountered Wishbringer, and was very surprised when the 
previously light-hearted 'mailboxes' bit took a surreal and sad turn when 
the friendly little mailbox and the monstrous big mailbox met....
    Then of course, there's Lurking Horror, which involves the very 
disconcerting scenario of an everyday world going mad, and meeting 
creatures that, as the game says, 'shouldn't exist in any sane universe'. 
The game has a very unsettling atmosphere, and your imagination may run 
away with you. Try typing 'LISTEN' and 'LOOK BEHIND ME' several times, 
especially in dark places or corridors. 
    Of course, A Mind Forever Voyaging is also scary, but scary in a very 
real way. Several times during the more dark and brutal simulations, I 
had to remind myself (as no doubt Perry/PRISM had to remind himself) that 
these were only simulations; they don't HAVE to actually happen. But the 
most frightening thing about those scenarios, which get progressively 
worse, is that if we (meaning the nation, the world, the human race) are 
not careful, something very much like them could occur in real life. 
Dealing with several serious political and social issues, AMFV is not a 
game/story for the faint of heart, or for gamers seeking a light-hearted 
game. Steve Meretzky's darkest and grimmest work to date. 
    I'd go on, but I don't want to give too much more away about these 
games for those who haven't played them. I'd rather that those now 
playing them for the first time (and hopefully, there are at least quite 
a few out there) discover exactly where the scenes are themselves. 
    But in any case, the above are, I feel, very good examples of 
'emotion twisting IF'. And my particular favorite examples...

                                         Chris Lang



From caravel@halcyon.com Mon Sep  1 10:34:22 MET DST 1997
Article: 25527 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: caravel@halcyon.com (Erik Hermansen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Zork: TUU - Review
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 22:49:24 GMT
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On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:26:26 -1000, John Menichelli
<menichel@pixi.com> wrote:

>Well, I just finished this a few minutes ago. 
>
>The puzzles are low to medium complexity, and are for the most part
>straightforward. 
>
>I noticed one or two grammatical errors (aside from the intentional
>ones) and one bug (I'm not sure if this is related to the game or the
>Inform library, but in one situation the game's response was "I
>understand you only after far as wanting to <verb> the (23)."
>
>All in all, a good game, with the sort of "Zorky" humor we've seen in
>the original Zorks. I consider it a worthy addition to I-F and to the
>Zork universe.
>
>John Menichelli
>menichel@pixi.com

Well, here is my "review".  Some spoilers in it.

It was fun to play and of the same quality as past Infocom games.
Fortunately, there were not any Grand Inquisitor promotional bits
embedded into the game.  The whole hall of science wing with the Marc
and Mike heads, MUD forum (incest!), and adventurer museum, grated on
me a bit.  I really just wanted to play a game and not revel in
nostalgia and in-jokes.  Wasn't too bad though.  I just could have
done without that stuff.

Entering the convention hall was my favorite moment of the game.  It
was a cool idea to walk in on the grues as one of them.  I felt very
sly about that.  And I did get a bit scared when they started to
notice me, but then I remembered I could RESTORE.

Side thought: it would be fun to play an IF game based on a more
prolonged and complicated imposter scenario.  You move among a group
of strange creatures or members of an unusual culture and pretend to
be one of them.  You observe their actions and try to fit in, or face
consequences.  This might be a nice device to get the player to stay
in character.

All in all, a very likable little game.  It probably even influenced
me slightly in the direction of getting the Grand Inquisitor game, or
at least checking it out.

/* Deadly Rooms of Death - puzzling game of dungeon */
/* exploration for Windows. Easy to play, damned    */
/* hard to win.  Download from:                     */
/*   http://webfootgames.com/catalog/drod.htm       */


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Mon Sep  1 10:50:55 MET DST 1997
Article: 25517 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Gay characters
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:26:57 -0400
Organization: Group 17
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Mathew w os wrote:
> Well, I was disappointed that Leather Goddesses of Phobos wouldn't let
> me try being gay, let alone bisexual...

You weren't trying hard enough.

If you play female, the game makes all your potential playmates male --
except for the Goddesses themselves.  And I'm under the impression that
you still end up on the divan with said Goddesses...

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Durham, NC
 http://www.duke.edu/~adamc


From markb@sci.kun.nl Mon Sep  1 13:01:14 MET DST 1997
Article: 25533 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: markb@sci.kun.nl (Mark Bijster)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Magnetic Scrolls interpreter available
Date: 1 Sep 1997 11:20:23 +0200
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In <3409D50A.7E84@pixi.com> John Menichelli <menichel@pixi.com> writes:

>Where can you find Magnetic Scrolls games to play?

[SNAPPED from the documentation (I hope I won't get into trouble):]

    At present the only way to obtain the story files is to extract them
    from C64 disk images (i.e. files representing the contents of the
    games released for the Commodore 64). These files are identified by
    having a file name ending with ".d64". Disk images for "The Pawn",
    "The Guild of Thieves", "Corruption", "Jinxter" and "Fish" can be
    found at

	ftp://ftp.arnold.hiof.no

I believe this must be: ftp://arnold.hiof.no (Without the extra 'ftp')
(Example: The Pawn can be found at: ftp://arnold.hiof.no/games/p/pawn.zip)

    To convert these files to the interpreter's own format, the Xtract64
    program must be used. Run the program without any arguments to read
    a help screen describing its syntax. You'll find that Xtract64 is
    easy to use; for example, for "The Pawn", the command line might be

	Xtract64 pawn-1.d64 pawn-2.d64 pawn.mag


    - THE GRAPHICS FILES ------------------------------------------------

    The Magnetic Scrolls adventures were as well known for the quality
    of their graphics as of their text. The interpreter supports a
    single graphics file format (".gfx"), which is based on the graphics
    files released with the original Amiga version of the games. The
    graphics files used by Magnetic can be obtained from the Internet,
    at Paul David Doherty's web page:

	http://www2.rz.hu-berlin.de/inside/angl/people/pdd/advent.html

    The Amiga release of Magnetic also contains a tool to build graphics
    files from the Amiga releases of the Magnetic Scrolls games.

Then start the game with 'magnetic pawn.mag' (Dos version that is..)

Happy playing,
Mark
-- 
Mark Bijster      'No-one is perfect in this unperfect world'
markb@sci.kun.nl                          -Ziggy Marley-
University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
http://www.cs.kun.nl/is/edu/stl/markb/markb.html


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Wed Sep  3 16:02:52 MET DST 1997
Article: 25578 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: "Mercy": a brief review
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 12:02:56 +0100 (BST)
Organization: none
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In article <5ucd4q$q4n$1@gte2.gte.net>, Jason Melancon
<URL:mailto:34ram@gte.net> wrote:
> Mercy: a short story by Chris Klimas
> 
>      ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/infocom/Mercy.z5
> 
> You see, when the scientists had thought that the only smallpox around
> was in a very very small box kept securely closed, they were wrong.

"Mercy" has a breathtaking beginning, and is written with rare
vehemence, which often (though not always) convinces as prose.
It's fair to say that there's nothing like it in the existing
IF bibliography.  It isn't really a "game" at all, but somehow
it mostly works -- or at least, until close to the end, where
there aren't quite adequate cues that things are coming to an end.
But I think that's probably an artistic choice.

I'd also praise the computer in the game, which is one of the best
Z-machine special effects I've seen.

Release 1 contains a fair number of minor glitches, and (I hope this
doesn't sound patronising) these are mostly because the author's
new to Inform.  They'll be easy to fix and I do hope people will
help the author to do so; "Mercy" is too good not to have a
proper final version.

Anyway, good for Mr Klimas, and it's good to see any game released
outside of the competition these days.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From jdblask@csd.uwm.edu Thu Sep  4 12:23:42 MET DST 1997
Article: 25646 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Wonder Boy <jdblask@csd.uwm.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: New Zork- Things to try
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:51:32 -0500
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	Hi, Whizzard was kind enough to inform me of some of the amusing
responses that are available in the Undiscovered Underground.  I'm not
going to print all of them; some of the best, I'm going to leave so that
anyone might have the enjoyment of discovering some for themselves.  Just
to be safe, I'd recommend not looking at these until you've beaten the
game.





S

P

O

I

L

E

R


S

P

A

C

E


	Pull the ropes in the backstage.
	Clean the dirty floor in the lobby.
	Attack the salesman and try throwing something at him.
	Examine the Multi-Implementeers bar multiple times.
	By the footlights on the stage, FIND SWITCH.
	Rearrange the letters (on the reader board) in the Hall of Science
Lobby.
	Try putting an object in the raft.
	Hum or sing near the skeleton.
	Try WHAT IS A FLATHEAD? and WHAT IS A GRUE?
	And of course, XYZZY and HELLO SAILOR.

	There are still plenty of really funny responses left to find,
though.  Happy hunting.
							-jon





From earendil@ Tue Sep  9 14:29:31 MET DST 1997
Article: 25740 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Achtung meaning?
References: <19970902233901.TAA26505@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5up5g4$79$1@news1.bu.edu> <5upa1i$eil$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <5uubiv$a95$1@europa.frii.com>
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From: earendil@ (Allen Garvin)
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:25740

In article <5uubiv$a95$1@europa.frii.com>,
J. Holder <jholder@deimos.frii.com> wrote:
>In a fit of lunacy, Magnus Olsson (mol@bartlet.df.lth.se) escribed:
>: Is this the same thing as Weissbier?
>
>Nope.  Weissbier, as you undoubtably know, means "white beer" 

In Germany, it is (basically) the same thing.  Many weizen beers are labelled
weissbier (well-known example: Erdinger Weissbier).  The name originated
in the same way that English Pale Ale did: it was significantly lighter in
color than earlier styles of beer (due to advances in malting technology a
couple of centuries ago).  Weissbier is not really white, nor is Pale Ale all
that pale compared to modern lagers.

In American brewing style guidelines, I think Weisse beer usually refers to
Berliner Weisse, which, to further confuse you, is usually green or red,
>from woodruff or raspberry syrups that is added at serving time.

>and it is made
>unmalted wheat and usually has something like coriander and a touch of lemon
>or orange peel infused into it for flavor.  The whiteness comes more from
>the couldiness of the unmalted wheat than from the yeast, a special kind
>of "protein haze", if you will.

This is Belgin Witbier, recently revived Hoegaarden in Belgium and Celis in
the States.  Witbier is very pale.

>Hefe Weizen is made with malted wheat, sometimes has fruit flavor infused
>into it, and has its cloudiness come from the intentional swirling of the
>yeast that collects on the bottom of the bottle back into solution.

The spiciness/fruitiness derives from its unique yeast.  


Happily brewing,
-- 
Allen Garvin                                      kisses are a better fate
---------------------------------------------     than wisdom
earendil@faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu          
http://faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu/~earendil         	      e e cummings


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Tue Sep  9 14:31:06 MET DST 1997
Article: 25782 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!feed1.news.erols.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gnelson.demon.co.uk!graham
From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,comp.os.cpm
Subject: Re: Infocom text adventure CP/M interpreters + (unrelated) terminals question.
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 10:06:07 +0100 (BST)
Organization: none
Message-ID: <ant090907f7fM+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
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In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.970908161211.190B-200000@pc79157>, Linards Ticmanis
<URL:mailto:root@dialup.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> does anybody in these groups maybe have the infamous CP/M interpreter for
> Infocom games ? If yes, the attached text explains how to customize it for
> your terminal.

Interestingly, like the author of your attached text, I am another
G. Nelson who once had a CP/M interpreter.  I used it on an Amstrad
CPC 464, a cheap British 8-bit micro of the mid-1980s whose
manufacturer was too cheap to write an operating system and so
used CP/M instead.  (But hey, it worked for the IBM PC.)

Specific Amstrad versions of the V3 Infocom games were sold, but I
suspect all that was Amstrad about them was the disc encoding.  In
particular I can vouch for the existence of Amstrad versions of
Enchanter, Sorcerer, Spellbreaker, Ballyhoo and Cutthroats.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From sreed2@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 11 20:43:25 MET DST 1997
Article: 25848 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: sreed2@ix.netcom.com (Shawn L. Reed)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: "Mercy" review...
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:54:26 -0600
Organization: None
Lines: 37
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In <34172a9f.1479048@news.netspace.net.au>, jrcole@ozemail.com.au (JC) writes:

>>Umm... but you don't want to have too much iron in your body, that's not
>>good for you.  Someone who knows a bit more about this than me could
>>probably tell you eactly why.

Seeing how this thread has taken a slightly medical bent, I thought I'd
clear the waters a little on some points raised.

- Too much iron in your body can lead to the disease Hemochromatosis.  You
can get this condition genetically (an inhereited defect causing you to
absorb too much iron), or because you've been given too much iron, often
seen in patients requiring many, many blood transfusions (due to blood
disorders they have like thallasemia).  It's bad because iron builds up in
other organs and causes inflammation, damage, and potential organ
failure.  You can get cirrhosis of the liver, pancreas damage leading to
diabetes, iron depositing in the skin making one look "bronze", bad
arthritis ...... bottom line, it's a bad thing.
The treatment  is simple, periodic phlebotomies (blood draws).

- Bubonic plague is caused by a bacteria called Yersinia Pestis.  You get
it from rat fleas (if I remember right, the fleas actually vomit up the
bacteria as they bite you  ;-)).  One stiking feature of the plague is a
massive bacteremia (copious bacteria actually in the bloodstream which is
normally sterile).  Bacteria, like people, use iron to grow and divide
(OK, people don't technically divide, but you get the idea).  The more
iron in your blood, the more they thrive.  There is an entity called
'anemia of chronic disease' which has evolved for precisely this reason. 
One adaptive response man has to continued sickness is anemia...
presumably over time the human body figured out that the less iron you
have around, the less fuel bacteria have to grow.  


OK, probably too much information.  Interesting though.

- Shawn


From erkyrath@netcom.com Mon Sep 15 12:23:09 MET DST 1997
Article: 25932 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter1!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ix.netcom.com!erkyrath
From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: MaxZip 1.7.0
Message-ID: <erkyrathEGJ63r.M4K@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
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Stefan Jokisch (s.jokisch@avu.de) wrote:
> Andrew Plotkin wrote:

> [about extended save/restore opcodes]

> > But this feature has been discussed for at least a year, as a Z-machine
> > extension. It is generally agreed that Infocom's interpreters may not
> > support it, but it's so useful that if an author wants to make a game
> > which requires it, he should be allowed to.

> The extended Save/Restore opcodes are a V6 feature that has now
> been introduced to V5.  Zork Zero uses it for saving function key
> definitions, for example.  Frotz implements it; Infocom's V6 interpreters
> do; Infocom's V5 interpreters don't.

Thanks for the correction.

That means there's an answer to a question I've been guessing on: If the
"suggested name" argument is provided, the interpreter should try to 
read/write that filename without prompting the user at all, right? 

MaxZip 1.7.0 puts up a standard file dialog with the suggested name as 
the default. But if Z0 reads a preference file that way, I guess that's 
wrong.

--Z


-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From rglasser@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 17 13:17:15 MET DST 1997
Article: 25984 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: Russell Glasser <rglasser@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Typo (Vl'Hurg) sequence in HGTTG
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:48:01 -0700
Organization: Netcom
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JID wrote:
> 
> The fine review of Beyond Zork has reminded me of a question I wanted to
> ask. Has anyone ever gotten to the point, in HGTTG, where the big war
> sequence is supposed to happen, only due to your incredible typing skill
> and sagacity in choosing commands, you haven't made an error?
> 
> Just wondering if it's possible, and if so, what happens.
> 
> Joey
> 

	Yes indeed.  As several other people have pointed out, the Vl'hurg war
will initiate by itself if you go too long without a spelling error.
	In fact, if I remember correctly, the war initiates by default from
some comment you make exactly three turns after the tea is created. 
Which once led me to a rather amusing result when I was replaying the
game...

>PUT BIT

What do you want to put the bit in?

>TEA

Done.  [So sue me.  I'm to lazy to type "in".]

[...Several moves pass...]

It seems that when you spoke the words "tea" a wormhole opened in the
space/time continuum...

	So there you have it: I initiated an interstellar war by typing the
word "tea".  I'm sure Douglas Adams would be delighted.

	Side note: Beyond Zork also notices when you misspell a word.  When you
meet the implementors for the first time, they say:
	"Isn't this the feeb who used the word 'asdf' a few turns ago?"
	However, if you manage to reach the implementors without a single typo,
they say:
	"Isn't this the feeb who bought that coconut a few turns ago?"

-- 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.  Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man."
                -- George Bernard Shaw

Russell can be heckled at
        http://www.willynet.com/rglasser


From earendil@ Wed Sep 17 18:22:26 MET DST 1997
Article: 26000 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Typo (Vl'Hurg) sequence in HGTTG
References: <owls-1309970100220001@owls.vip.best.com> <341F7D21.A03E9782@ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Gee Library, Texas A&M at Commerce
From: earendil@ (Allen Garvin)
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Date: 17 Sep 97 13:49:23 GMT
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:26000

In article <341F7D21.A03E9782@ix.netcom.com>,
Russell Glasser  <rglasser@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>JID wrote:

>	Yes indeed.  As several other people have pointed out, the Vl'hurg war
>will initiate by itself if you go too long without a spelling error.
>	In fact, if I remember correctly, the war initiates by default from
>some comment you make exactly three turns after the tea is created. 
>Which once led me to a rather amusing result when I was replaying the
>game...

Quite annoyed me.  I had hoped to discover a bug by getting through an entire
game without a typo.  I carefully typed every word, reviewed it before I
pressed ENTER, and then was disgusted to find that anything at all could start
a war.

>	Side note: Beyond Zork also notices when you misspell a word.  When you
>meet the implementors for the first time, they say:
>	"Isn't this the feeb who used the word 'asdf' a few turns ago?"
>	However, if you manage to reach the implementors without a single typo,
>they say:
>	"Isn't this the feeb who bought that coconut a few turns ago?"

Yep, if you disassemble Brian Moriarty's games (especially Trinity and Beyond
Zork), you can easily see he attempted to provide a response for almost every
reasonable thing a player could do, as well as many unreasonable things.
Trinity and Beyond Zork were the two largest games that Infocom ever
produced, in terms of opcodes, and Trinity contains the most text.


-- 
Allen Garvin                                      kisses are a better fate
---------------------------------------------     than wisdom
earendil@faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu          
http://faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu/~earendil         	      e e cummings


From dfan@thecia.net Thu Sep 18 10:49:20 MET DST 1997
Article: 26027 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!news-ge.switch.ch!news-kar1.dfn.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail
From: Dan Schmidt <dfan@thecia.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Typo (Vl'Hurg) sequence in HGTTG
Date: 17 Sep 1997 22:45:55 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
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Sender: dfan@razumovsky.thecia.net
Message-ID: <87bu1rnxuk.fsf@razumovsky.thecia.net>
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:26027

earendil@ (Allen Garvin) writes:

| In article <341F7D21.A03E9782@ix.netcom.com>,
| Russell Glasser  <rglasser@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
| >	Side note: Beyond Zork also notices when you misspell a word.  When you
| >meet the implementors for the first time, they say:
| >	"Isn't this the feeb who used the word 'asdf' a few turns ago?"
| >	However, if you manage to reach the implementors without a single typo,
| >they say:
| >	"Isn't this the feeb who bought that coconut a few turns ago?"
| 
| Yep, if you disassemble Brian Moriarty's games (especially Trinity and Beyond
| Zork), you can easily see he attempted to provide a response for almost every
| reasonable thing a player could do, as well as many unreasonable things.
| Trinity and Beyond Zork were the two largest games that Infocom ever
| produced, in terms of opcodes, and Trinity contains the most text.

OK, here's my stupid "provide a response for every thing a player
could do" story.

In Ultima Underworld, you could talk to various NPC's, but the
conversations were menu-driven.  One particular NPC was a ghoul
named Eyesnack, and naturally, you could make fun of his name, to
which he would reply something like "I think $PLAYER_NAME even
sillier name!" or some such.

Of course, we soon realized that this code was not very robust, so we
changed it to

  if ($PLAYER_NAME == "Eyesnack")
     print "You should talk!  Your name same as mine!"
  else
     print "I think $PLAYER_NAME even sillier name!"

-- 
                 Dan Schmidt -> dfan@alum.mit.edu, dfan@thecia.net
Honest Bob & the                http://www2.thecia.net/users/dfan/
Factory-to-Dealer Incentives -> http://www2.thecia.net/users/dfan/hbob/
          Gamelan Galak Tika -> http://web.mit.edu/galak-tika/www/


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 18 13:06:40 MET DST 1997
Article: 26033 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!feed1.news.erols.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gnelson.demon.co.uk!graham
From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best Level 9 game?
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:38:31 +0100 (BST)
Organization: none
Message-ID: <ant1807310b0M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
References: <sandifer-1709972348370001@sci-dial-2-mac2.sdsu.edu> 
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In article <sandifer-1709972348370001@sci-dial-2-mac2.sdsu.edu>, cody sandifer
<URL:mailto:sandifer@crmse.sdsu.edu> wrote:
> If I was to play just one, which do you suggest?

Snowball.  Original, well-constructed, memorable.  The prologue
contains a somewhat annoying maze, but don't be deterred.

I'd also recommend Dungeon and Agaliarept, the other two from the
first fantasy trilogy (the third being a port of Colossal Cave).

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 18 18:03:08 MET DST 1997
Article: 26033 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!feed1.news.erols.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gnelson.demon.co.uk!graham
From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Best Level 9 game?
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:38:31 +0100 (BST)
Organization: none
Message-ID: <ant1807310b0M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
References: <sandifer-1709972348370001@sci-dial-2-mac2.sdsu.edu> 
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In article <sandifer-1709972348370001@sci-dial-2-mac2.sdsu.edu>, cody sandifer
<URL:mailto:sandifer@crmse.sdsu.edu> wrote:
> If I was to play just one, which do you suggest?

Snowball.  Original, well-constructed, memorable.  The prologue
contains a somewhat annoying maze, but don't be deterred.

I'd also recommend Dungeon and Agaliarept, the other two from the
first fantasy trilogy (the third being a port of Colossal Cave).

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From edharel@remus.rutgers.edu Sun Sep 21 22:21:36 MET DST 1997
Article: 26072 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!remus.rutgers.edu!not-for-mail
From: edharel@remus.rutgers.edu (Edan Harel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Sherlock Marx
Date: 19 Sep 1997 10:08:24 -0400
Organization: Rutgers University LCSR
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <5vu10o$9c6@remus.rutgers.edu>
References: <19970916171701.NAA11059@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5vol9a$p5a@kruuna.Helsinki.FI> <5vsek5$5pe@remus.rutgers.edu> <owls-1809972046420001@owls.vip.best.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remus.rutgers.edu
Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:26072

owls@best.com (JID) writes:

>In article <5vsek5$5pe@remus.rutgers.edu>, edharel@remus.rutgers.edu (Edan
>Harel) wrote:


>>The response for harpo was hilarious, even though it took me a few minutes
>>to get it. :-)

>This is hilarious!! Did anyone answer the question of why this happens? My
>news server sucks and DejaNews is no help.

Most probably it's an in-joke.  Infocom games usually have something similar,
most of which are in the "What to do when you're done playing" section
of the invisiclues, and others which are far better hidden.  For example,
I seem to remember someone saying that in a certain game, you could never
get the light in a certain room, but he managed to change the story
file and give himself light to look in the rooms and recieved something
along the lines of:

Whatever Room

You have found a bug here.

And I'm sure there's lot's of others around too.
-- 
 "I have yet to see any problem, however complicated, which, when you looked
  at it the right way, did not become still more complicated." -Poul Anderson
  "For every problem, there is one solution which is simple, neat and wrong."
							-H. L. Mencken


From earendil@faeryland.TAMU-Commerce.edu Sun Sep 21 22:23:38 MET DST 1997
Article: 26080 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Sherlock Marx
References: <19970916171701.NAA11059@ladder01.news.aol.com> <owls-1809972046420001@owls.vip.best.com> <5vu10o$9c6@remus.rutgers.edu> <EGrH9J.KHn@world.std.com>
Reply-To: earendil@faeryland.TAMU-Commerce.edu
Organization: Gee Library, Texas A&M at Commerce
From: earendil@ (Allen Garvin)
NNTP-Posting-Host: faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu
Message-ID: <3422a0e2.0@news.tamu-commerce.edu>
Date: 19 Sep 97 15:57:22 GMT
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:26080

In article <EGrH9J.KHn@world.std.com>,
Mark J Musante <olorin@world.std.com> wrote:

	Edan Harel (edharel@remus.rutgers.edu) wrote:

		 I seem to remember someone saying that in a certain
		 game, you could never get the light in a certain room,
		 but he managed to change the story file and give himself
		 light to look in the rooms and recieved something along
		 the lines of:

		 Whatever Room

		 You have found a bug here.


	That would be Planetfall.

	Message reproduced below (found through Deja-News using search
	words of "planetfall light bug") -

	From:	      earendil@ (Allen Garvin)

	Remember all those annoying red herrings in Planetfall, like the
	helicopter, the dark rooms, the lamp that you could never get
	and keep without dying?  I always wondered if there might be some
	secret way to get the lamp, and what those 2 dark rooms might be
	like if you could.  Well, studying the z-machine specification
	document for how objects are placed around the game, I modified
	a story file to place the lamp conveniently on the ship at
	the start of the game, and then I went to explore those rooms.
	For those of you who have wondered about those mysterious rooms
	and what they might be like, here's the answer:

	  Admin Corridor North 
	  The corridor ends here. Portals lead west, north,
	  and east. Signs above these portals read, respectively,
	  "Administraativ Awfisiz," "Tranzportaashun Suplii," and "Plan
	  Ruum." To the south is a wide rift, spanned by a metal ladder,
	  separating this area from the rest of the building.  There is
	  a multiple purpose robot here.

	  >TURN ON LAMP 
	  The lamp is now producing a bright light.

	  >NORTH 
          Transportation Supply 
	  You have just located a serious bug.

Yep that was me, who wasted time modifying the story file.  Later I got
wiser, and I modified frotz to give me a bunch of extra hotkeys to move
objects around and turn attributes on and off.  Then I went through
various games trying it out.  Unfortunately, the authors of most of the
games of Infocom did not take into account actions such as this, so it
wasn't very fun (for instance, casting Izyuk anywhere in the game and
going east will tell you a message about entering Krill's chamber).

-- 
Allen Garvin                                      kisses are a better fate
---------------------------------------------     than wisdom
earendil@faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu          
http://faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu/~earendil         	      e e cummings


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 22 18:51:18 MET DST 1997
Article: 26156 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!feed1.news.erols.com!zdc!super.zippo.com!lotsanews.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gnelson.demon.co.uk!graham
From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ending of The Pawn?!?
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:25:43 +0100 (BST)
Organization: none
Message-ID: <ant2116431cbM+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
References: <3419dffd.342951@news.nettally.com> <341EE07F.5915@df.lth.se> <342228a1.4997186@news.nettally.com> <5vrs5u$e0g@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> <erkyrathEGsDBM.3AF@netcom.com> 
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In article <erkyrathEGsDBM.3AF@netcom.com>, Andrew Plotkin
<URL:mailto:erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:
> Isn't that what a "good ending" means? I mean, you can't complain that 
> Infocom wasn't *paying attention* when they designed Infidel. The ending 
> did what they wanted it to.
> 
> Similarly, I was thinking earlier how impressed I was with Planetfall; 
> that was the first adrenalin-pumping, action-scene ending in IF, right? 
> It was certainly the first one I encountered.

Most of Infocom's games end with either an elegant closure, relating
back to the beginning (e.g. Trinity), or a climactic scene (e.g.
The Lurking Horror is nicely done, I think).  Infidel is in my
view an artistic triumph partly because it subverts these
expectations with a shock ending (though it can certainly be argued
that it does achieve narrative closure in good pre-nouvelle-roman
ways).  Actually, the worst thing about Infidel is the beginning,
in that the title is awful and the prologue slightly too dull.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From gkw@pobox.com Mon Sep 29 09:50:15 MET DST 1997
Article: 26332 of rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!c-1996!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!131.103.1.114!iagnet.net!nntp.earthlink.net!usenet
From: gkw@pobox.com (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Avalon?
Date: 28 Sep 1997 22:26:31 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 66
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <60mlin$9is@bolivia.earthlink.net>
References: <342EB598.C2BF8D43@potsdam.edu> <Pine.OSF.3.96.970928153109.15445C-100000@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu>
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:26332

In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.970928153109.15445C-100000@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu>
Wonder Boy <jdblask@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, Sean A. Krauss wrote:
> 
>> Would someone please relate the story behind Avalon?  I'm not quite
>> following the humor surrounding its (non)release?
>> 
> 
> 	Hmmmm, should there be an Avalon FAQ?
> 							-jon

			Avalon FAQ v1.0
			by G. Kevin Wilson

Q: What is Avalon?
A: Avalon is a game being written by myself.  I started it in 1993 with the
confident statement, "I should have it done in about 2 months."  It
remains unfinished 4 years later.

Q: What are all the late jokes about?
A: I used to have teasers in my .sig featuring little bits of text from
Avalon.  I announced about 6 different release dates before giving
up on setting a deadline entirely.  At various points, the jokes have
included:

Fictional details of a cult that believes the world will end when Avalon
	is released.
Fictional 'puzzles' from Avalon, often requiring the use of Old English
	or an obscure verb like 'transubstantiate'.  Sometimes even
	invoking obscure mathematics, which I found particularly
	humorous, since I nearly flunked out of college because of
	Calculus.
Many, many promises to release products sometime 'after Avalon
	is finished.'  It should be noted that I've saved those
	messages, and will be sending e-mail to their authors the
	day I release Avalon, asking, in gleeful vengeance, when
	the promised product is due.
Several hidden jokes in IF Competition entries, like the one in Library,
	in which the player finds a copy of Avalon in the 'rare games'
	section and muses to themself, "Wow, you didn't know that
	had ever been finished."

Essentially, Avalon is now synonymous with 'late' in the world of IF.

Q: Well, what kind of game is Avalon?
A: The short version: Man drafted into Vietnam War.  Man killed.  Man
goes to Avalon.  King Arthur gives him quest.  Man interacts with
Arthurian figures, fey creatures, demons, oracles, etc.  Man hopefully
has happy ending.  I'll post the longer version once I get the end scenes
finished and the whole thing betatested.  Avalon will be accompanied by
nice packaging (plastic folder, trinkets, fat manual/hintbook, etc.) and
will be sold for $25.  I hope to arrange credit card ordering as well.  But
we'll see.

Conclusion:
	Overall, I've enjoyed the little jokes which, if anything, say
that people are eager to play the game, and more than a little
disgruntled at my continuing sloth.  Avalon does exist, and will be
finished, Lord willing.  When the day does come, let's just hope that the
Avalon Doomsday Cult is wrong.  In the meantime, aside from answering
questions, I won't be advertising its existance.

---
G. Kevin Wilson: Freelance Writer and Game Designer.  Resumes on demand.



From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Oct  1 10:16:53 MET DST 1997
Article: 26425 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!c-1996!news.algonet.se!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!erkyrath
From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Don't beat up Andy Phillips
Message-ID: <erkyrathEHCsuC.54D@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <christopher.spork.klimas-3009972040310001@n103l93.washcoll.edu>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:39:48 GMT
Lines: 84
Sender: erkyrath@netcom13.netcom.com
Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:26425

Chris Klimas (christopher.spork.klimas@washcoll.edu) wrote:
> It seems that beating up on Andy Phillips is the local sport on
> rec.arts.int-fiction

First point: Beating up on a person? I thought we were beating up on a 
game. (Serious, here, but I'll get back to the term "beating up" later.)

> which I think is unfair. Yeah, there are flaws in
> his work. But saying that someone's grammar "sucks cheese" is a little...
> well... childish?

Thanks for not naming me, but, well, hi there. :)

Grammar is important. When I say _Heist_'s grammar is awful, I mean
exactly that. Not that there's an occasional punctuation error, or an
"its" / "it's" flip, or a twist of the rules in the name of informality or
slang. I mean that there are more commas used incorrectly than correctly. 

(And if the author doesn't know this, he needs to. There's no point in me
being indirect about it. As a player, I owe honesty.)

I really don't think there's an excuse for it. Text IF *is* a prose form. 
If you're going to presume to write prose -- even for amateur audiences 
-- you can bloody well learn what a sentence is first. Everyone here is 
old enough to have been taught it in school.

I am not dismissing _The Heist_ because of its grammar. Grammar can be 
fixed. I hope it gets fixed. But a lot of people aren't going to take it 
seriously until it *is* fixed, and furthermore this is the *author's* 
problem, not the audience's. 

> And dissassembling the story file because it's such a
> hard game? Come on. This reeks of elitism. 

Mmm, there I don't understand you at all. Disassembling is the moral 
equivalent of reading a cheat file, and I think most of us have used
cheat files. (I have solved a *few* of the major IF works without any 
hints at all. Not many.) If it's a problem, it's my problem, not the 
author's. 

And since it's a new game, there isn't any solution on gmd.de, so there's
only one way to get a cheat file. 

Now when I say the game is "hard", that's something I decided *after* I 
started looking at hints. (Before that, I was just stuck, and it could 
have been just me being dumb, right?) I didn't decide to cheat because I 
thought the game was impossibly hard; I decided to cheat because I was 
stuck. 

And now -- I have now seen a large portion of the game; it is my
professionalish opinion (and, again, my honest opinion) that nobody will
be able to solve it without large-scale use of hints. You can call that 
"hard", or "too hard", or "not a fair game." The latter of those terms are
tricky ones, and too subjective for me. I'll stick with "awfully hard". 

> I can understand arguments that this kind of criticism is needed to raise
> the quality of IF as a whole, but I haven't seen word one panning
> Baltimore:24, a piece of IF that is worse than either Time or Heist.

Haven't played it. I started playing _Heist_ because it was a large work, 
which is rare; and because the author is known. _Time_ has been discussed 
around here, and I wanted to see what Andy Phillips was up to after that.

> (To the writer of Baltimore:24, I realize that it's a first piece.)

> I think that IF authors deserve at least respect.

I agree. This *is* me showing respect. Ignoring the grammar issue would 
be a failure of respect. Being quiet about it, and using only inoffensive 
words... well, that's a matter of style, and less often my style than not.

I could have restricted my comments to email; but, like you said, the 
issue is relevant to the quality of IF as a whole. Criticism is best 
shared; that's what this newsgroup is for.

If anybody is offended by the way I'm expressing my criticism, you have my
apology. 

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Oct  2 09:56:11 MET DST 1997
Article: 26475 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!c-1996!news.algonet.se!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!erkyrath
From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Don't beat up Andy Phillips
Message-ID: <erkyrathEHEFIE.GtH@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <christopher.spork.klimas-3009972040310001@n103l93.washcoll.edu> <erkyrathEHCsuC.54D@netcom.com> <christopher.spork.klimas-0110971647070001@n103l39.washcoll.edu>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:47:02 GMT
Lines: 61
Sender: erkyrath@netcom8.netcom.com
Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:26475

Chris Klimas (christopher.spork.klimas@washcoll.edu) wrote:
> In article <erkyrathEHCsuC.54D@netcom.com>, erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew
> Plotkin) wrote:

> > Mmm, there I don't understand you at all. Disassembling is the moral 
> > equivalent of reading a cheat file

> I misunderstood, then. I was thinking that you meant that "This game sucks
> so much, I had to read the source to solve the puzzles." I was under the
> impression that disassembling the story file is a last resort, when the
> game is horribly unplayable.

Not in my book. If there had been a solution on gmd.de, I would have used 
that instead. 

> > And now -- I have now seen a large portion of the game; it is my
> > professionalish opinion (and, again, my honest opinion) that nobody will
> > be able to solve it without large-scale use of hints. You can call that 
> > "hard", or "too hard", or "not a fair game." The latter of those terms are
> > tricky ones, and too subjective for me. I'll stick with "awfully hard". 

> I got the impression that you meant "unplayable."

"Unplayable" is also a tricky, subjective term. I am certain that I would
have gotten stuck right at the beginning, if I had not used hints. There
are many puzzles that I would not have solved without hints. I would have
stopped trying and trashed the game. Does that make it "unplayable"? For
me, I guess the answer must be "yes". For other people it will vary. 

And the biggest variance is not difficulty per se, but how much a given
player will stick to it. Just spending minutes or hours trying different
things. *That* depends on how much fun the player is having, and that
depends on all sorts of things, including story, puzzle design, writing
style, and (no kidding) grammar. 

> Anyway, let me clarify a little what I meant; it seems to me like Andy
> Phillips' IF is a second-class citizen around here, deservedly or not.
> He's an easy (and favorite) target for a lot of people -- I can recall
> someone damning Time with faint praise by saying that it explored a fairly
> new genre, the completely linear piece of IF. Again, I'm not saying that
> Andy Phillips is the Second Coming of IF, it's just that I think people
> are getting a little vicious. (To quote Dave Gatewood: "If it's anything
> like 'Time: All Things Come to an End', it should be easily winnable in
> under 2 hours.")

I am undoubtedly a mutant, but I tend to take such statements at face 
value, and not try to see viciousness or anything else underneath them. I 
didn't play much of "Time", but the part I saw was a set of small scenes, 
played in a fixed order. So "complete linear" could be a meaningful 
description. And maybe Dave Gatewood solved it in one hour fifty-three 
minutes. I dunno.

(For the record, the structure of "Heist" is not like what I saw of 
"Time".)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From xyzrad@crl8.crl.com Thu Oct  2 23:43:39 MET DST 1997
Article: 26506 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: A. De Lisle <xyzrad@crl8.crl.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Don't beat up Andy Phillips
Date: 2 Oct 1997 20:24:56 GMT
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RA> I could probably do better editing the source code, rather than
RA> mailing in comments, but would authors let a beta-tester do that?
RA> 
RA> Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu

As a matter of fact, when testing the game Klaustrophobia, that is what
finally happened.  The author did the real programming, but I corrected
the source (finale not available) because the author just could not spell 
and apparently would not use a spelling checker.  Some of the hard parts
(like doing Klaus at the start) were the result of input from the testers.
The MacGuyver bit was the author's own.  We told her we expected certain
things (which made it harder) and she complied.
The e-mails flew constantly with changes to the source until finally she
sent the source and then just corrections.  The problem with AGT 
(and others?) is that one bug correction can lead to several new bugs.
I am sure that is what happened with the cab fare.  It did work in the
earlier versions.  
<email address altered-post only>  




From 104312.2206@compuserve.com Mon Oct  6 11:07:44 MET DST 1997
Article: 26587 of rec.games.int-fiction
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Subject: Re: Cheapest portable I-F platform
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On Wed, 01 Oct 1997 PhotoJim@usa.net asked:
> What's the least expensive way of being able to play interactive fiction
> on the go?
>  
> I've been trying to find a cheap '286 or XT laptop, which would do the
> trick (you don't even need a hard drive), but maybe one of those palmtops
> would be another choice.
>  
> What are your thoughts?

I'm not unbiased ... I develop for the Psion machines, and I tend to pay 
more attention to the availability of Z-code interpreters than TADS or Hugo 
or other systems, but hopefully some of this might be useful.  Currently 
your palmtop Z-code alternatives include

* Psion Sienna

You'll probably need the larger 1M version, and the 40 column screen can 
cause grief.  You need to budget extra for the cable and comms to get the 
games into the machine.

* Psion Series 3c

Just dropped in price. Available in 1M and 2M sizes. Either should be fine, 
but again budget for the cable.  My elderly 512K 3a needed the addition of 
a 512K SSD before larger games became practical (but I also use it as an 
organiser and for chess and scrabble ...)

* Windows CE

Various machines from firms like HP/Casio/Philips/NEC, with WinCE 2.0 
coming RSN.  WinFrotz has been ported.

* DOS based palmtops

You should be able to play games quite happily on machines like the 
HP95/100/200 series, the Poqet and the Sharp pocket PC (3100?). Some of 
those may only be available second hand.  Good choice of interpreters.

* Newton

A Z3 interpreter (at least) is available.  I never managed to keep track of 
the various models and prices on Newtons :-(

* Pilot

Again, I think there *is* an interpreter, but I don't recall the details.  
The lack of a keyboard may be a problem.

* Psion Series5

No interpreter yet.  I'm working on one.


There are a lot of new palmtops around at the moment, so you may be able to 
get a second-hand machine at a good price.  Just be careful that you get 
enough storage; for instance some of the early Psion machines came with 
128K or 256K.  The latter is *just* enough to store and run Zork1, but not 
much else. Machines like the Atari Portfolio could be even more restricted.

If money is tight and interactive-fiction is all you want the system for, 
I'd be looking at second-hand systems like the HP95, a 512K Series 3a or a 
laptop like a Toshiba T1000/1100/1200 (preferably with a RAM disk to store 
the games and avoid powering up the floppy too much.) Batteries seem to be 
the first component to die on laptops, so you might want to check battery 
life and the pricing on replacement NiCads.

    Bryan




From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Oct  8 11:54:09 MET DST 1997
Article: 26653 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Elitism? (was: Don't beat up Andy Phillips)
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Charlie Ball (msrfx@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:

> Allow me to explain. I think that these elitism allegations spring from
> a feeling that some authors (Andy Phillips being one) are treated differently
> (and more harshly) than others. These allegations are at the same time
> both overstated, and not entirely groundless. Andy has been treated in
> a harsh and sometimes childish fashion (in particular, the "sucks cheese"
> man, who knows exactly who he is

As does everyone else, please, I do stick my name on my posts. There's no 
need either to be coy or to pretend that I'm being coy.

> has no right to complain if someone
> slates his wordy prose next time *he* puts a game out)

My god, would I have a right to complain if I *hadn't* posted that 
comment? Can I regain my right to complain if I apologize and retract the 
post? What is the point of that parenthetical aside?

People *have* criticized my prose. People have criticized my puzzles and
my plots and my experiments and everything else about my games, too. I
save as much of the criticism as I can; without feedback I have no idea
how I'm doing. 

In return, I give feedback on other people's games. Again, I apologize if 
the expression of that particular bit of feedback offended you; it was 
inadvertant. But it coherently presented my opinion. Style is a separate 
matter, and subjective.

> and in my view this
> would not have taken place, regardless of the flaws in his game, if he
> posted more frequently. In any newsgroup, there are *always* going to be
> prominent posters, and they get challenged less frequently than others.

It is impossible for me, of course, to say what I would have done in a 
hypothetical situation. But I don't *think* my opinion would have been 
different if Andy Phillips was a frequent poster here. 

> Andy has been very reticent on this group, and some people have slapped him
> down like playground bullies.

I don't believe that has happened. 

In the meantime, the author's only contribution to this discussion has 
not been either a complaint or a counterattack, but an announcement that 
he's uploaded a new release with attention to the grammar. I have not yet 
downloaded it, but I shall.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Oct  8 11:59:04 MET DST 1997
Article: 26653 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Elitism? (was: Don't beat up Andy Phillips)
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Charlie Ball (msrfx@csv.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:

> Allow me to explain. I think that these elitism allegations spring from
> a feeling that some authors (Andy Phillips being one) are treated differently
> (and more harshly) than others. These allegations are at the same time
> both overstated, and not entirely groundless. Andy has been treated in
> a harsh and sometimes childish fashion (in particular, the "sucks cheese"
> man, who knows exactly who he is

As does everyone else, please, I do stick my name on my posts. There's no 
need either to be coy or to pretend that I'm being coy.

> has no right to complain if someone
> slates his wordy prose next time *he* puts a game out)

My god, would I have a right to complain if I *hadn't* posted that 
comment? Can I regain my right to complain if I apologize and retract the 
post? What is the point of that parenthetical aside?

People *have* criticized my prose. People have criticized my puzzles and
my plots and my experiments and everything else about my games, too. I
save as much of the criticism as I can; without feedback I have no idea
how I'm doing. 

In return, I give feedback on other people's games. Again, I apologize if 
the expression of that particular bit of feedback offended you; it was 
inadvertant. But it coherently presented my opinion. Style is a separate 
matter, and subjective.

> and in my view this
> would not have taken place, regardless of the flaws in his game, if he
> posted more frequently. In any newsgroup, there are *always* going to be
> prominent posters, and they get challenged less frequently than others.

It is impossible for me, of course, to say what I would have done in a 
hypothetical situation. But I don't *think* my opinion would have been 
different if Andy Phillips was a frequent poster here. 

> Andy has been very reticent on this group, and some people have slapped him
> down like playground bullies.

I don't believe that has happened. 

In the meantime, the author's only contribution to this discussion has 
not been either a complaint or a counterattack, but an announcement that 
he's uploaded a new release with attention to the grammar. I have not yet 
downloaded it, but I shall.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Oct  8 11:59:19 MET DST 1997
Article: 26647 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Cheapest portable I-F platform
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Giles Boutel (boutel1g@wcc.govt.nz) wrote:

> Whoah - flashback! For years one of my most treasured possessions was a
> line print-out of the first time I finished collossal cave. It disappeared
> when I handed it in as 'material evidence' for a communications project on
> IF. The thing must have been 70 feet long (the paper wasn't segmented), but
> rolled up it made a nifty little scroll.

Heh. I still have a large crate with fanfold printouts of my triumphal 
runs through most of the Infocom games.

In fact, I could probably dig out the Zork 1 printout to substantiate my 
indented-line post. 

(D'oh! This is creepy. My original Spellbreaker maps.)

Yup, here we go. Zork 1: The Great Underground Empire. Release 26, serial 
820803. 

Well, I was wrong. No indentation -- at least, not in the printout, 
although the printout is 40 columns wide. 

Sorry about that.

Surely I shall repent of my cunning.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From brendon@caverock.co.nz Thu Oct  9 09:49:51 MET DST 1997
Article: 26703 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: brendon@caverock.co.nz (Brendon J Wyber)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ending of The Pawn?!?
Date: 9 Oct 1997 00:28:43 GMT
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Howdy,

Look What the Cat Dragged In (news@idctwl.prestel.co.uk) wrote:
: From what I heard somewhere, when you complete The Pawn, it doesn't
: actually end properly.. If you wander back around the game, you can't die,
: and some things change, and some weird objects appear.

True, when you get far enough you can go into debugging mode. I always hated
the pawn and Magnetic Scrolls. Truely awful game, although very pretty with a
nice parser.

RANT MODE ON :-)

It started a story that was internally inconsistant and never ended it.
Why vote in the game, it just gave you points. Everything seemed utterly 
pointless, you never got anywhere and the hobbit/dragon puzzle was 
terrible and one of the puzzle potting the pot plant just seemed to be excuse
to show off the parser. I got the impression the whole thing was designed as
"Gee, we have a really neat game engine and some nice artists so let's just
throw together a whole lot of meaningless puzzles which reverse common cliches
and dump it on the user. Talk about over-rated.

RANT MODE OFF

-- 

Be seeing you,

Brendon

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brendon J Wyber                                         brendon@caverock.co.nz
        


From mark@sonance.demon.co.uk Thu Oct  9 18:27:43 MET DST 1997
Article: 26721 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: mark@sonance.demon.co.uk (Mark Stevens)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Wishbringer review
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 14:34:32 GMT
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On Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:54:55 -0500, Second April
<dns361@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:

>Literary/sociological implications aside, Wishbringer is far and away the
>best of Infocom's "introductory" offerings, and stands as a worthy
>complement to the other games in the Zork universe. Though playable by
>kids, its entertainment value survives the preteen years admirably.

Wishbringer was the first Infocom game I played, back in 1985, when I
was about 13. I'd heard all these rumours of the legendary Infocom,
reading articles in magazines about their awe-inspiring Interactive
Fiction, so I was keen to try some out.

My first online pal, one Helen Robson, also had a C64 and disk drive,
so she did me a copy (tsk!) of Wishbringer and HHGTTG. I'll never
forget playing Wishbringer for the first time -- in my darkened
bedroom, coffee and sandwiches to sustain me. It was a truly magical
experience and from that moment on I was hooked!

I managed to get copies of other Infocom titles -- most the Zorks,
Spellbreaker, LGOP, etc. -- although it wasn't until Activision
started re-releasing everything that I managed to actually buy some
Infocom games. Stationfall and Lurking Horror were given to me one
Christmas, with Moonmist and HHGTTG for the following birthday.

The C64 conked out a few years later and it wasn't until the Lost
Treasures came along that I had the chance to play my old favourites,
plus all the others I never saw first time round.

Trinity and A Mind Forever Voyaging remain my all-time Infocom
favourites.




From s590501@tfh-berlin.de Wed Oct 15 18:09:04 MET DST 1997
Article: 26909 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: "Miron Schmidt" <s590501@tfh-berlin.de>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Wherefore art Shogun, Arthur and Journey?
Date: 15 Oct 97 17:39:53 +0100
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Steve McKinney <sjmck@avana.net> wrote:
> On 14 Oct 1997 15:47:12 -0400, edharel@romulus.rutgers.edu (Edan
> Harel) wrote:
> >erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) writes:
> >
> >[Snip, games based on living author's creations]
> >
> >I asked:
> >>> What about Nord & Bert?
> >
> >>What about it? It was in LTOI, and it's in Masterpieces. It's not based 
> >>on any pre-existing work as far as I know.
> >
> >You mean it wasn't based on The Far Side strip?
> 
> No, it wasn't.  The game came with a booklet of cartoons by Kevin
> Pope, the author of the game, but the game was not based on them.  The
> purpose of the cartoon book was to provide examples of the types of
> wordplay that you would come across in the game.

OK. It's like this:

Kevin Pope did the cartoons. He also did the "Inside Out" cartoons, the book
"The Day Gravity Was Turned off in Topeka," and, apparently, some greeting
cards. He is otherwise not affiliated with the game, nor in any way related
to, or affiliated with, Gary Larson.
Gary Larson wrote and drew the "Far Side" line of cartoons. He is not in any
way affiliated with, or related to, "Nord and Bert Couldn't Make Head or Tail
of It," "Inside Out," Kevin Pope, or Jeff O'Neill.
Jeff O'Neill wrote Infocom's "Ballyhoo," as well as the game in question,
"Nord and Bert Couldn't Make Head or Tail of It." He furthermore worked on
the never-released German translation of "Zork I," which was also published
by Infocom. He is not related to Infocom, Dave Lebling, Marc "Mark" Blank,
Bruce K. Daniels, or Tim Anderson, who, in turn, are not related, or
affiliated with, Gary Larson, or Kevin Pope (except in the case of Infocom,
who were at one time affiliated with Kevin Pope, namely as he did the cartoon
"Home on the Range" for their game "Nord and Bert Couldn't Make Head or Tail
of It," which was written by Jeff O'Neill).

"Nord and Bert Couldn't Make Head or Tail of It" is not based on any cartoon
by Kevin Pope, or Gary Larson (or, for that matter, Jeff O'Neill) and merely
features Kevin Pope's cartoon "Home on the Range." It was published by
Infocom.

Most of this information, though slightly less concise, is available from the
"Infocom Fact Sheet," which was written by Paul David Doherty, who is not
related to, or affiliated with, any of the aforementioned persons, products,
or corporations.
The information on the relationship between Kevin Pope, Infocom, and Jeff
O'Neill is available from the packaging of "Nord and bert Couldn't Make Head
or Tail of It."

Unfortunately, "The Lost Treasures of Infocom II" refers to "Nord and Bert
Couldn't Make Head or Tail of It" as "Nord and Burt," and claims that Kevin
Pope authored that game.


--
Miron Schmidt <miron@comports.com>                       PGP key on request

WATCH TV... MARRY AND REPRODUCE... OBEY... PLAY INTERACTIVE FICTION...



From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 20 15:35:46 MET DST 1997
Article: 27000 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: "Making History" by S. Fry
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:26:43 +0100 (BST)
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Did anyone notice the inventory listing in Stephen Fry's most
recent novel "Making History" (his third novel, now available in
paperback while a self-lacerating autobiography does the rounds in
hardback)?

It's at the start of Book 2, when the narrator suddenly feels
dislocated and unaware of who or where he is.  It runs for about
two pages and I'm not going to type all of it, but:

"A room, containing --
  a table, containing --
    a bunch of keys
    a packet of Lucky Strike cigarettes
...
  windows, containing --
    blinds (shut)
...
  a door (half open), leading to --
    a bathroom
..."

Which does lead rather to the conclusion that Mr Fry, a notorious
fan of computery gimmicks to do with text, plays adventure games...
He even calls the above an "inventory".  We'll make it into
popular culture yet.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu Wed Oct 22 23:05:26 MET DST 1997
Article: 27058 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu (Ethan Dicks)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: A (probably well known) bug in Zork I.
Date: 22 Oct 1997 20:53:12 GMT
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In article <62l7ld$6ef$1@flood.xnet.com>,
Jason Compton <jcompton@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:
>Allen Garvin (earendil@) wrote:
>: I didn't realized it work in as late a version as 25, but in the earliest
>: known version, you can give anything to the thief.  You can give the troll
>: to him, you can give directions to him ("give northeast to thief"), you can
>: even give a grue or the sailor to him (two nouns that I suppose were akin
>: "floating" objects).

I hadn't thought about those... here's the transcript from version 25...

 >GIVE SAILOR TO TROLL
 The Troll, who is not overly proud, graciously accepts the gift and not
 having the most discriminating tastes, gleefully eats it.

 >GIVE SOUTH TO TROLL
 The Troll, who is not overly proud, graciously accepts the gift and not
 having the most discriminating tastes, gleefully eats it.

 >GIVE TROLL TO TROLL
 You would have to get the troll first, and that seems unlikely.

So... *one* bug fixed.  

>Hey, great.  Where can I get this one? :)  And do these objects have
>weights associated with them?  (i.e. can you make the thief EVEN SLOWER by
>giving him the grue and sailor?)

I'd have to check (I've got an unreleased object dumper for Z3 games I wrote)
but if I had to guess, those objects wouldn't have weight.

-ethan
-- 
Ethan Dicks                                      http://www.infinet.com/~erd/
(dicks) at (math) . (ohio-state) . (edu)       sellto: postmaster@[127.0.0.1]

harvestbot fodder: president@whitehouse.gov fccinfo@fcc.gov root@[127.0.0.1]


From earendil@faeryland.TAMU-Commerce.edu Thu Oct 23 20:37:43 MET DST 1997
Article: 27087 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: A (probably well known) bug in Zork I.
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From: earendil@ (Allen Garvin)
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In article <62lp3o$34g$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu>,
Ethan Dicks <dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu> wrote:
	>GIVE TROLL TO TROLL
	You would have to get the troll first, and that seems unlikely.

	So... *one* bug fixed.  

>From release 5:

  >GIVE TROLL TO TROLL
  The troll, who is not overly proud, graciously accepts the gift and not having
  the most discriminating tastes, gleefully eats it.
  Your sword is no longer glowing.
  >L
  The Troll Room
  This is a small room with passages to the east and south and a forbidding hole
  leading west. Bloodstains and deep scratches (perhaps made by an axe) mar the
  walls.
  >E
  The troll fends you off with a menacing gesture.

Foo! The game is now unwinnable! It's fixed in release 15, though.

-- 
Allen Garvin                                      kisses are a better fate
---------------------------------------------     than wisdom
earendil@faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu          
http://faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu/~earendil         	      e e cummings


From generalcoffee@geocities.com Fri Oct 24 17:06:49 MET DST 1997
Article: 27096 of rec.games.int-fiction
From: tessman@cibc.ca
Subject: Re: [hugo] Graphic/Text Adventure Game Demo
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:11:07 -0600
Reply-To: generalcoffee@geocities.com
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In article <19971023020000.WAA13461@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
  ksstudd@aol.com (KsStudd) wrote:
>
> Ah, this is the first indication that the types of games I want to do *CAN* be
> done with an existing "IF" programming language. :)
>
> I've stumbled on some QB source code for playing WAV's, 9-channel
> Sound Blaster sound effects, loading 256-color GIFS/Palettes, using
> true-color SVGA screens, etc. Can Hugo do these types of things as well?
> I'm working on The Oxygen Wars part 1 and plan to (at least for a title
> and in certain places) use VGA graphics and Soundblaster effects/music.
> As I progress, I'd like to do something like the two games at the
> IF/Incoming archive (although those are in spanish and I can't even
> figure out how to exit from them). Anyway, is Hugo capable of these
> techniques?

Hugo is capable of doing true-color graphics, although this depends on
the implementation.  Because Hugo's graphics format is currently JPEG
based, full-color information is always available.  But the existing
32-bit PC port, however, is presently only capable of 256-color SVGA
640x480 *.  Other machines may do better, i.e., millions of colors and
much higher resolution.

Hugo v2.5, due probably after Christmas, has sound support planned for
it, although it isn't finalized yet what combination of .WAV, MIDI,
some-other-format that will entail.  Suggestions are very welcome.

--Kent Tessman


* The reason for the 256-color limit is because the 32-bit graphics
engine is built with Allegro by Shawn Hargreaves, a kneel-and-gape
library, but one which before the current beta had only 256-color
support.  Truecolor is now available, but I can't get the beta to work
under NT 3.51 (my current Windows development platform).  I've spoken to
Shawn, who, after shuddering at my mention of NT, says that this problem
is semi-chronic with the WIP.  If there are any Allegro programmers out
there who _have_ gotten it to work, however...

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet


From lynnj@netcom.com Wed Oct 29 14:44:34 MET 1997
Article: 27203 of rec.games.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
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From: lynnj@netcom.com (Lynn Johannesen)
Subject: Re: frotz The frotz Zork frotz Trilogy frotz
Message-ID: <lynnjEIrpKr.HMr@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
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Steve McKinney (sjmck@avana.net) wrote:
: Hey!

: I just noticed that all three games in the Zork trilogy on the
: Masterpieces CD understand the word "frotz," but don't recognize it as
: a verb or a noun.  In fact, the games seem almost completely to ignore
: the word "frotz."  F'rinstance, from Zork I:
: -
: Does the word "frotz" actually appear anywhere in the Zork trilogy?
: What significance did the word "frotz" have before the Enchanter
: trilogy?  I'm perplexed.

In Zork III, you can get to the Dungeon Master before you've done
everything else necessary.  He will teleport you back to the main
part of the game, but that leaves the movable room on the wrong
side of the Guardians.  So to return to the DM, he says, say
"FROTZ OZMOO".




From dns361@merle.acns.nwu.edu Thu Oct 30 10:14:18 MET 1997
Article: 27238 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Second April <dns361@merle.acns.nwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Just saw...
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:57:28 -0600
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...a post on a humor newsgroup with a list of standard signoffs, e.g.:

ooo: hugs
xxx: kisses
OOO: big hugs
XXX: big kisses
[X}: kisses in the closet

...and such. One of them was:

XYZZY: a kiss that moves you

Somewhere, Crowther and Woods are smiling.

Duncan Stevens
d-stevens@nwu.edu
312-654-0280

The room is as you left it; your last touch--
A thoughtless pressure, knowing not itself
As saintly--hallows now each simple thing,
Hallows and glorifies, and glows between
The dust's gray fingers, like a shielded light.

--from "Interim," by Edna St. Vincent Millay





From russotto@wanda.vf.pond.com Fri Oct 31 12:19:27 MET 1997
Article: 27258 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: russotto@wanda.vf.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: frotz The frotz Zork frotz Trilogy frotz
Date: 30 Oct 1997 17:27:35 -0500
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In article <3458fc1e.336784871@news.cc.columbia.edu>,
Mike Schiraldi <mgs21@columbia.edu> wrote:
}>I wonder why they got added at all if they don't do anything in those
}>two games.  I had thought that it might be because the trilogy was
}>originally one game.  If "frotz" and "ozmoo" weren't in early releases
}>of Zork I and II, then that would seem not to be the case.
}
}I can't seem to recall frotz or ozmoo doing anything in Zork III...
}Yes, there's the Enchanter scene, but... 
}
}They seem to be completely ignored, like in Zork I. They don't even
}get you "A hollow voice says, 'Fool.'"

It's a quirk of the parser -- one of many odd ones.  One of the parts
of speech a word can be is "special", and if there's no special case
built in for a given "special" word, it's ignored entirely.  A few
hours spent staring at the Zork parser disassembly will reveal all
sorts of quirks, many of which aren't widely known.  It looks like
Zork I Version 75 has pretty much all the Wizard's spells in it, listed
as "special".  (Use infodump -dc 1 to determine this -- note that I
have no idea what Infocom's original name for this type of word was,
"special" is my label)

Another weird one, this one a bug IIRC:

West of House
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front
door.
There is a small mailbox here.
 
>then
What do you want to tell?

(the proper response would be "There was no verb in that sentence!")
-- 
Matthew T. Russotto                                russotto@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue." 


From sjmck@avana.net Wed Nov  5 14:14:13 MET 1997
Article: 27273 of rec.games.int-fiction
From: sjmck@avana.net (Steve McKinney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: frotz The frotz Zork frotz Trilogy frotz
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:04:01 GMT
Message-ID: <3459e4d6.2745238@news.avana.net>
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:27273

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:32:59 GMT, mgs21@columbia.edu (Mike Schiraldi)
wrote:
>
>I can't seem to recall frotz or ozmoo doing anything in Zork III...
>Yes, there's the Enchanter scene, but... 

If you find your way to the Dungeon Master before you have completed
all of the tasks, he sends you back and gives you the magic words
"FROTZ OZMOO" to use to return to him.  It had been so long since I
played the game that I had completely forgotten.

-- 
Steve McKinney <sjmck@avana.net>

"Never let your sense of morals keep you from doing what is right."
                                                        --Isaac Asimov


From thornley@visi.com Mon Nov 24 14:12:56 MET 1997
Article: 27850 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: thornley@visi.com (David Thornley)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Competition: Did I miss something?
Date: 21 Nov 1997 17:26:51 GMT
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In article <654bsr$lnq$1@joe.rice.edu>,
Lucian Paul Smith <lpsmith@rice.edu> wrote:
>
>ct (ct@comlab.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
>
>: > >Jim MacKenzie wrote:
>: > >
>: > >> Maybe we should do the final marking based on ordinals, and not on
>: > >> average scores, as they do in figure skating.  Figure out which
>: > >> game Judge #1 rated #1, #2, #3, etc. and average the ranking, not
>: > >> the actual marks.  This would eliminate the problem.
>
>: The idea itself is not a bad one, but is effectively what we have presently
>: if everybody uses the full range available to them. In general, I prefer
>: voting/counting systems to be as simple as possible so people (that is, me)
>: can understand _exactly_ what their vote means immediately.
>
>: Out of curiosity, what kind of averaging do figure skating use? I'm vaguely
>: tempted towards harmonic means, rather than arithmetic for averaging ranks,
>: but I suspect the stats behind it all is slightly more complicated than I'm
>: imagining atm.
>
>If I'm understanding the figure skating scenario correctly, there'd be a
>problem if we tried to apply it to the contest, since not everyone rates
>all the games.  The result would be that someone who rated all the games
>would have a game ranked #35, while someone who rated only ten's worst
>game would be ranked #10.  Averaging these numbers straight across the
>board would not yield correct results.
>
>*IF* we wanted to be more complicated (and that's a big 'if'), we try to
>come up with a way to rank the games on a relative scale, instead of on an
>absolute scale.  This would eliminate even further the problem of people
>not playing all the games.  The idea would be that you would take all
>combinations of two games, see who voted on both of them, and discover
>which game was rated higher than the other.  So you might find that out of
>50 voters, 30 of them voted on both games #1 and #2, and game #1 was rated
>higher than game #2 for 20 of those votes.  Therefore, game #1 is placed
>higher than game #2.  Then you go to the combination of game #1 and game
>#3, and so on.
>

This way lies paradox!  Suppose we have three voters, Floyd, Duffy,
and Trent (aka Tiffany), and three games, unimaginatively called
1, 2, and 3.  The preferences are, from first to last:

Floyd:  1, 2, 3
Duffy:  2, 3, 1
Trent:  3, 1, 2

Notice that two people prefer game 1 to game 2, two people prefer
game 2 to game 3, and two people prefer game 3 to game 1.  We can't
determine a ranking.

IIRC, there is no paradox-free way of setting up ordinal voting,
although it is possible to set up decision procedures that normally
yield results.

I think the current method is good enough, and I'd rather see that
continue rather than take the ordinal risks.  Some people are going to
rate all the games on a 4-6 scale, perhaps, but then again some people
aren't going to rate on all the games.

The current system is fairly simple and intuitive.  It doesn't force
judges to use the full 1-10 spread of numbers, but then it doesn't
force judges to rate games anyway.  It also has the virtue that it
is working right now.


--
David H. Thornley                        | These opinions are mine.  I
david@thornley.net                       | do give them freely to those
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | who run too slowly.


From gkw@pobox.com Mon Nov 24 14:17:23 MET 1997
Article: 27853 of rec.games.int-fiction
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From: gkw@pobox.com (Gerry Kevin Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Competition: Did I miss something?
Date: 21 Nov 1997 19:42:48 GMT
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In article <654g8r$2m5$1@darla.visi.com>
thornley@visi.com (David Thornley) wrote:

> The current system is fairly simple and intuitive.  It doesn't force
> judges to use the full 1-10 spread of numbers, but then it doesn't
> force judges to rate games anyway.  It also has the virtue that it
> is working right now.

Plus, we don't have any volunteers to do the vote tabulating in the, ahem,
statistically enhanced manner.  When it comes to suggestions that are going
to make the competition "committee's" jobs that much harder, I don't even
begin to consider them unless we have someone who is gonna 'walk the
walk.'  Otherwise I risk alienating the people who have very generously
donated their time, effort, cash, etc, to the contest.  Any fool can see that
is the only way to do things when based on a strictly volunteer basis.  If
you don't, you will 'toe-step' your way out of existance.

Besides the fact that ct, (the current vote counter, and therefore more than
entitled to say "Push off' to anyone who wants to make his job that much
more difficult.) doesn't want a more complicated system, I don't feel we
need one.  Every year someone points out that the votes who use the entire
range of 1 to 10 count slightly more than those that use a  smaller range.
Every year I think the same thing..."So?"  People are aware of the fact.
If they choose to ignore it when voting, well, cry me a river.  I operate under
the assumption that the judges we get are mature enough, and intelligent
enough to handle their own affairs, including rating the games however
they want, and designating the scores in the manner of their choosing.

---
G. Kevin Wilson: Freelance Writer and Game Designer.  Resumes on demand.



From sjmck@avana.net Mon Nov 24 14:19:46 MET 1997
Article: 27891 of rec.games.int-fiction
From: sjmck@avana.net (Steve McKinney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Infocom Names
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:00:13 GMT
Message-ID: <3478465b.3626279@news.avana.net>
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On 22 Nov 97 14:44:05 -0500, "Richard H. Poser II"
<whomiga@missingpiece.com> wrote:

>On 22-Nov-97 10:29:07 in response to Steve McKinney, I stopped lurking and
>replied to the following:
>>On 20 Nov 1997 23:18:19 GMT, dlou@worf.ucsd.edu (Dennis Lou) wrote:
>>>
>>>Was the dornbeast, (from Sorcerer, Beyond Zork, et al) named
>>>after Infocom Product Manager and Zork Users Group founder
>>>Mike Dornbrook?
>
>>Yes.
>
>>>Was Accardi-by-the-Sea (from Zork1, Beyond Zork, et al) and
>>>Accardi-3 (Planetfall) named after InfoSales Manager Gabrielle Accardi?
>
>>Yes.
>
>>>Were there any other places, things or beasts named after real people?
>
>>Yes.
>
>Could you elaborate on what they were and who they were named after?
>Please?

Sorry 'bout that.  Offhand, I can only think of a few:

In Arthur, the shape-changing spell, CYR, is named after Liz
Cyr-Jones, who came up with the concept for Hollywood Hijinx.  Type
CYR JONES for an amusing response.

Many of the foreign words and names in Border Zone are based on the
names of actual people (Meretznik, Dornik, etc.).

The alien ambassador from Blow'k-bibben-Gordo in Planetfall was named
after Vernon Blow'k-bibben-Gordo, the boy who delivered the bottled
water to the Infocom offices.

The college in Lurking Horror was based on M.I.T.
-- 
Steve McKinney <sjmck@avana.net>

"Never let your sense of morals keep you from doing what is right."
                                                        --Isaac Asimov


