From sgranade@bohr.phy.duke.edu Wed Nov 18 14:31:32 MET 1998
Article: 50587 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Stephen Granade <sgranade@bohr.phy.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Arrival post-mortem
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:05:28 -0500
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One of the magazines I occasionally read has a regular feature in which
they invite designers whose games have just been released to discuss them.
The designers seem more than happy to perform an autopsy on their game and
talk about their successes and misses. I like the idea, and I especially
like the imagery of a released game as something which has inexplicably
died, so I thought I'd run with it.

If you haven't played Arrival and you don't want the experience spoiled by
the sight of its messy innards dissected on the newsgroup, please skip
this message. Never fear--you can always retrieve it through the wonder
that is DejaNews.






















---== The Setup ==---

The number one question people tend to ask is, "Where do you get your
ideas?" (Okay, they don't actually ask *me* that question, but other
writers/designers tell me it's a popular question.) You'd probably be
better off asking Andrew, Adam C., or Christopher Huang that question,
because the idea for Arrival came from a pretty mundane source: I can't
draw.

See, when I found out about HTML TADS, I thought, "This is really neat.
Boy, would I ever love to make a graphical game." I put a blank sheet of
paper on my desk, titled it "My First HTML TADS Game," and stared at it.

I ended up staring at it on and off for about a week. Other than the
title, the page stayed blank. I didn't want to start planning a game until
I had decided what kind of graphics I was going to use since, if I were
going to make a game with graphics, I'd have to come up with said
graphics. Somehow.

For a while I thought of making black-and-white stick figures. Hey, I can
draw stick-figures like nobody's business. Unfortunately, no stick-figure
story suggested itself. At the end of the week, I had come to the
conclusion that I was permanently stymied by my inability to draw any
better than an eight-year-old.

In hindsight, it seems glaringly obvious: make my protagonist match my
drawing skills. If only I had paid $70 for that time machine, I could have
saved myself a week's worth of brainstorming.

I have a vivid recollection of me at age eight, daydreaming about what
would happen if aliens ever crashed in my backyard. In half of the
daydreams, the aliens were good and kind and, out of gratitude for the
help I gave them, anointed me President of the Universe. (The fact that
the office of President of the Universe was probably an elected one never
crossed my mind.) In the other half, I saved the world from the horrible
alien menace.

This seemed like as good an idea as any, and better than some. I decided
that saving the world from aliens was much more fun than just helping them
out. To top it off, I decided to give myself some extra wiggle room by
deliberately setting out to make a B-grade sci fi game. Bad pictures?
Goofy special effects? It's...deliberate. Yeah, that's it. Besides, I
hadn't written a just-for-fun game in a while, and this seemed like a good
chance to create one.

I was most likely influenced by a strange mix of Mystery Science Theatre
3000, Calvin and Hobbes, and any film directed by Mr. Corman. The only
event in Arrival taken more-or-less directly from my childhood was the
comment about knocking the mortar off of bricks. Ever done that? I spent a
summer doing that for my dad in order to save up enough money to buy one
of those inflatable rafts. Despite saying "never again," I found myself
*again* knocking mortar off of bricks this summer, only for my own
apartment instead of for my parents' house.

---== Beginning Implementation ==---

On the first day, I made my best and worst design decisions back-to-back.
The good decision: I decided to implement Arrival as a straight text
adventure before adding whiz-bang graphics. I didn't plan any of the
graphics or sounds when I started. As I went along, I noted down objects,
scenes, and events which I thought should be illustrated and then got back
to the writing and programming.

The bad decision: I did very little initial planning and design. Hey, it's
a short demo, right? I'm going to do this in two months and release it
long before the competition. I mean, I just want to slap something
together. Who needs serious planning for something like this?

Geez. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Skipping the initial design steps didn't
permanently cripple Arrival, but it made my task much harder and resulted
in a game which wasn't quite what it could have been. You can skimp on the
design for a game this size and get by, but it's more work overall.

All I did before coding was make a rough layout of the spaceship and plan
the ending puzzle. Everything else was done off-the-cuff.

The only item of interest (to me, at least) in the inital coding was my
decision to break the fourth wall in order to keep the player from going
south in the living room. I didn't want the house just to consist of a
hallway, a kitchen, and a living room, but I also didn't want the player
wandering around the house--the action is supposed to center on the aliens
and the backyard. Since I was already going for over-the-top silliness,
why not throw in an occasional sarcastic narrator who doesn't mind
breaking the fourth wall?

---== NPC Interaction ==---

I've never felt comfortable with NPC design. Do I make them respond to
items and objects? Should I use a branching tree conversational system?
Should I keep the player from talking to them at all? This ambivalence
tends to manifest itself in strange ways in my games--people with no
mouths, people who are pets, people who are only a head, etc.

My approach in Arrival was a bit uneven. Initially you only interacted
with Zigurt and Floban twice: once at the beginning, and then again when
you brought them the things they wanted. Mom and dad sat in the living
room doing nothing. It wasn't until one of my beta-testers pointed it out
that I realized that Arrival was lifeless.

So I slapped on some more NPC interaction. Mom and dad became more active
once I introduced the "getting them out of the room" puzzle--more on that
in a moment. I added two key bits to Zigurt and Floban. One, I let you
watch them get the cap back off the tylenol bottle. Originally they
vanished into the aether, then returned with an open pill bottle. Two, I
gave them responses to every item in the ship's hold.

---== Puzzles ==---

Some of the Arrival puzzles I like. Some of them I don't.

Filling the gas tank with water is just this side of unreasonable. I
wanted the player to have to make a lateral shift--the aliens are
described as disliking water; they want rock salt to dehydrate; and, gee,
look at this, I have a garden hose and access to the fuel tank.
Unfortunately, most people just tried to wet the aliens down with the
hose.

Closing the pill bottle to get the translation book is, while not
well-motivated, the puzzle I am most satisfied with. There is no time
limit. You can experiment. You cannot get into an unwinnable state while
fiddling with it. The timing elements aren't too difficult and do not
require the use of restore or undo. Unfortunately, that puzzle is
completely unnecessary.

The "get your parents out of the living room" puzzle is evil. It was added
in long after the rest of the game was nominally finished, and it shows.
The puzzle initially appears hard to time correctly; if you hang around in
the kitchen, mom will send you directly to your room; you can only tell
dad once about the lights. In the next version, should you hang around the
kitchen, Mom will say that she'll send you to your room after she's done
cleaning up, and it'll take her much longer to clean up. You will also be
able to tell dad about the lights more than once, and each time he'll go
to the backyard. Granted, these changes won't make the puzzle a good one,
but it will make it a passable one.

---== HTML Stuff ==---

I don't do a lot of fancy HTML formatting in Arrival. The two big flashy
HTML things I did were the compass rose and the web page. For the web page
I looked around, found some pages which I thought were goofy, and stole
elements from several of them. The compass rose I did using a table and a
lot of trial and error. (compass.t coming soon to a GMD near you.)

I learned HTML by looking at people's web pages, so I can't really
recommend any books. If you're writing an HTML TADS game, don't sweat it
too much. Know how to use image tags and some of the basic text mark-up
tags and you should be set. HTML TADS games aren't web pages, so don't go
too crazy.

---== Organic Growth ==---

A lot of Arrival grew like The Blob on speed. Since I didn't do much
initial design, I had to apply a lot of spackle and grout later. Some of
the cracks showed more than others. See which of the following you caught:

The obsession with cleaning items slowly grew over the course of writing
the game. First I had the player clean dishes. Then I needed a way to keep
the player from wanting to open the Weber. Then it blossomed from there,
until it seemed like all Kid thought about was cleaning stuff.

Originally the exam room was just for fun. When I decided to let you see
how Zigurt and Floban opened the tylenol bottle, I decided that they'd
most logically (!) use the exam room tools.

At first, the aliens just asked for rock salt. Then I thought it'd be
funny if one of the aliens (Floban, as it turned out) had a predilection
for processed snack cakes. Finally, I added the Precious Moments doll. The
knick-knacks had always been in the living room, and the aliens' hold had
always been stuffed with kitsch, so it made sense that they'd want more.
"Beauty is in the eye of the alien" and all that.

While the map of the ship was planned from the beginning, the compass rose
in the status bar was added two days before the competition. I'm not sure
I'm pleased with it, and I'd be interested in knowing how many people made
it go away ten seconds after they started playing.

As mentioned, the "get your parents out of the living room" puzzle was a
latecomer to the party.

---== Pseudonym ==---

A few words on my choice of a pseudonym.

Arrival is very different from _Losing Your Grip_, probably my best-known
work. In part I was afraid that people would come to Arrival expecting a
smaller version of _Grip_. I was also interested to see how people would
react to the game if they had few preconceptions about the author at all
going in.

The name "Samantha Clark" is in honor of two of my relatives.

---== Random Thoughts ==---

Zigurt and Floban look like they do because of the particular difficulty
of working with generic Play-Doh. I wanted the aliens to be strongly
associated with color. When deciding what they would look like, I asked
myself, "What shapes can I reasonably make with generic Play-Doh that
tends to dry out quickly?" The ball was my obvious first choice. Floban
almost looked like a giant snake ("Hey, these are easy!"), until I decided
that a snake with tentacles was way too Freudian for such a light-hearted
game.

The graphics turned out better than I could have ever imagined. My
favorite is the picture of Zigurt and Floban shooting out the backyard
light. Every time I see Zigurt hefting that Han Solo blaster, I get the
giggles.

I'm also extremely pleased with the opening conversation involving Kid,
Zigurt, and Floban. I rewrote that scene over and over, occasionally
pacing about the apartment and muttering bits of dialog to myself.

I wanted the player to have a semi-specific personality, but not lock the
player into a specific gender. I toyed with giving the player an ambiguous
name, but finally decided that calling the player Kid all the time was a
reasonable solution and fit with the mood of the game.

Having someone run around with two pie plates dangling from a string while
you take pictures is a lot of fun.

The biggest disappointment of the game for me was mom and dad. They had
such promise, but I didn't do much with them. Bad author. Bad! Bad!

The fact that I have now placed fourth in two competitions has not been
lost on me. What this fact signifies is open to interpretation.

One of my beta-testers suggested that I discourage people from playing
Arrival unless they could see the pictures. I was tempted, but my
overweening need for everyone to play my game won out.

Something I had not expected was how Zigurt and Floban would become real
to me. At first they were fairly generic B-movie aliens. Then they started
developing separate personalities, until each of them had a distinctive
manner to them. Zigurt was the more stable, mature one, while Floban was
more flighty and easily upset. Floban was, of course, the Mission
Commander--alien bureaucracies are no more competent than human ones.

That's it, really. For the most part, I was very happy with how Arrival
turned out, its flaws to the nonce.

Stephen

--
  Stephen Granade                | Interested in adventure games?
  sgranade@phy.duke.edu          | Visit Mining Co.'s IF Page
  Duke University, Physics Dept  |   http://interactfiction.miningco.com



From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Nov 19 09:30:21 MET 1998
Article: 50615 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: A fable (was Re: [Inform] future)
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Branko Collin (collin@xs4all.nl) wrote:
> The author of "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", Eric S. Raymond, doesn't
> demand anything AFAIK. He describes software development models.
> Inform is developed according the Cathedral-model, Linux according the
> Bazaar-model.

Like any categorization system, the borders are fuzzy in practice. 

Inform's source code *is* available, and I *have* submitted bug fixes
that I tracked down using the source. Ditto the libraries.

That's the "distributed debugging" thing, which is one of the major points
of the Bazaar/Linux model. It's obviously not entirely absent from Inform.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From enoto@ucla.edu Thu Nov 19 14:06:31 MET 1998
Article: 50656 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Jon Petersen <enoto@ucla.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Photopia:  Talk to ... [Possible spoiler]
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:20:43 -0800
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Lelah Conrad wrote:
> 
> Although I'm glad I've now played a game with the menu choice option
> ("Talk to ..." instead of ask/tell), it just doesn't work for me.
> Getting those lists was the only big flaw I found in Photopia.
> Visually, they broke mimesis for me.

I don't know... I'd much rather have choices than the "mimesis-breaking"
ASK ALLEY ABOUT MOM. "I don't know anything about that!" And I liked the
personality that was revealed through the conversational choices.

But really this is the same old argument (My First Stupid Mimesis
Argument?) and nobody will get anywhere. Just thought I'd chime in with
my opinion.

This is really irrelevant, but what the hey: At this late date, let me
say I was shocked, shocked and appalled not to find something like the
following in _Sins Against Mimesis_:

> BREAK MIMESIS
"You know," says the plant, "you're playing a goddamn computer game."

Ah well--perhaps in MY game with a mimesis plant.

				Jon


From mkimball@xmission.com Fri Nov 20 13:43:09 MET 1998
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***  Watch out!  Some minor Photopia spoilers in my response below  ***

Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> In article <7304mm$1qv$1@news.xmission.com>,
> Matt Kimball  <mkimball@xmission.com> wrote:
> >I learned something surprising when playing Photopia during this
> >competition.  As a player, I don't care about the internal consistency
> >of the world.  I only care about the *illusion* of internal
> >consistency.  Some people probably already realized this, but it was a
> >new idea for me.

> This is one of the Basic Truths of game authorship, and being a GM for 
> a human-to-human RPG: what matters is the *illusion* of consistency you
> create. 
<Zebulon example snipped>

Yes, perhaps it is just the degree to which author is controlling
things.  In the past, I had always imagined the author carefully
constructing the world for the player, and then she sets the world in
motion when the player enters the game.  While he is wandering around,
she just stands back and smiles.

But when I realized that the topology in Photopia was changing to
improve the story, it was like I had an epiphany.  I realized that it
was acceptable for the author to change many things about the world at
runtime, and it could enhance my playing experience.  

In fact, I was a bit disappointed when I learned that Adam did it
because it was a story being told within the game.  I thought that he
had done it only to prevent the game from bogging down with the player
wandering all over the map of the Red Planet.

Now these techniques are obvious in retrospect, and perhaps I am a bit
naive for not realizing this earlier, but it opened my mind to a whole
new bag of techniques for the IF author.

> This is of course also true for non-interactive writing, but there the
> illusion of things going on behind the scenes is much weaker anyway.

Yes, with static fiction, there isn't any difference between internal
consistency and the illusion of internal consistency.  (At least, I
can't think of any way to make a distinction in the case of static
fiction).

> But I think Phil is talking about something different: 
...
> the player would be *supposed to* play the game several times and
> see how the different scenarios would work out. I think this would
> be fascinating, but hard to implement well.

Yes, this is probably what Phil was suggesting.  I don't think it
would add anything to the game, for me.  It might be an interesting
novelty, but not much more.

-- 
Matt Kimball
mkimball@xmission.com


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Matt Kimball wrote:

> ***  Watch out!  Some minor Photopia spoilers in my response below  ***
>
> Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> > In article <7304mm$1qv$1@news.xmission.com>,
> > Matt Kimball  <mkimball@xmission.com> wrote:
> > >I learned something surprising when playing Photopia during this
> > >competition.  As a player, I don't care about the internal consistency
> > >of the world.  I only care about the *illusion* of internal
> > >consistency.  Some people probably already realized this, but it was a
> > >new idea for me.
>
> > This is one of the Basic Truths of game authorship, and being a GM for
> > a human-to-human RPG: what matters is the *illusion* of consistency you
> > create.
> <Zebulon example snipped>
>
> Yes, perhaps it is just the degree to which author is controlling
> things.  In the past, I had always imagined the author carefully
> constructing the world for the player, and then she sets the world in
> motion when the player enters the game.  While he is wandering around,
> she just stands back and smiles.
>
> But when I realized that the topology in Photopia was changing to
> improve the story, it was like I had an epiphany.  I realized that it
> was acceptable for the author to change many things about the world at
> runtime, and it could enhance my playing experience.
>
> mkimball@xmission.com

    When I played out the Red Planet scene in Photopia, all illusion of an
internally consistant world was broken.  The terrain was being altered to
make sure I didn't screw up the story -- and not even behind my back!
    I was totally annoyed because it felt like the game was holding my hand
--
I never finished it, btw -- but my point is that you have to be careful
changing things "behind the player's back".  If you rearranged major plot
branches, not just terrain, to give the player the best story, they would
start feeling out of control -- like they were reading a Choose Your Own
Adventure.  At least I would.

        ----Ethan



From goetz@cse.buffalo.edu Fri Nov 20 14:00:48 MET 1998
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From: goetz@cse.buffalo.edu (Phil Goetz)
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In article <73169c$hc8$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>,
Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:

>But I think Phil is talking about something different: a game where
>you can replay it several times, and see different versions of the
>same "reality", as it were: what-if scenarios, or the same scenario
>with different people. I suppose this would have entirely the opposite
>point than what you're describing, Matt: the player would be *supposed
>to* play the game several times and see how the different scenarios
>would work out. I think this would be fascinating, but hard to
>implement well.
>-- 
>Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)

Yes, that's what I had in mind.  Very postmodern, I'm afraid.
But not unprecedented.  Tapestry did it well.

I didn't mean, what if the game has inconsistencies that are
undetectable to the player.  Assume you replay the game, and
discover the inconsistencies, so that either story appears consistent,
but they cannot both occur in the same world.  Would that bother you?

I think it would be interesting to have divergent tracks that were seen
through different worldviews.  For instance, the Morningstar
track and the Clothos track both seem appealing when you're on that track.
But I think it would destroy the game if the divergent tracks were
inconsistent; if they presented you with inconsistent information about
Morningstar or the consequences of his beliefs, in order to make the
current track seem like the right one.

Phil


From mlaurino@ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 20 14:06:39 MET 1998
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On 19 Nov 1998 02:48:15 GMT, goetz@cse.buffalo.edu (Phil Goetz) wrote:

>Question: How would you feel about a piece of IF which had several
>different possible storylines, some of which were mutually impossible?
>
>For instance, a murder mystery where different people might turn out
>to be the murderer.  I think Moonmist was like this, but I forget now.

Yes, Moonmist asks you for your favorite color and assigns you to a
guest bedroom of that color -- and chooses one of four solutions based
on your choice.  (If you pick a color other than one of the four
associated with the solutions, it picks one of the four randomly.)

>A better example would be a story in which Fergus gives you advice,
>and on one branch, Fergus is telling the truth; on another, Fergus is a
>traitor and a liar.  I've read Choose Your Own Adventures like this.

Are you suggesting that the player would choose whether Fergus is
dependable or the game would do it randomly behind the player's back?
I think it's ok for the game to have random elements as long as the
player is made aware that if he replays the game from the beginning,
some elements may be different (it would be a pretty nasty surprise if
dependable old Fergus stabbed you in the back the second time around).
But it's even better if the player is responsible for the choice
that's made (preferably without knowing that he did it).

Good old "Mystery Mansion" started with the simple statement "This is
mystery number ###", where ### was the random number that was used to
set up the solution and the starting locations of various objects.
You could force the game to set up a specific combination by entering
"MYSTERY 123" (or whatever number you wanted) at the first turn.
Moonmist was more subtle in asking for your favorite color, since, if
you weren't aware that the color would be used to set up the game and
your favorite color was one of the four planned for (red, blue, green,
and I forget -- yellow?), assuming you always answered the question
truthfully (or at least consistently), you would always get the same
game and never be any the wiser unless you compared notes with someone
who chose another color.  

I've toyed with the idea of setting the player looking for a small
object, such as a letter, in a room with, say, a rug on the floor and
a painting on the wall.  Pulling back the rug would reveal the object;
so would moving the painting:  the object would be in whichever
location the player looked first (the opposite of real life) and NOT
in the other location (in case the player looked there as well).  The
point being that players who look behind the painting first and find
the object there and nothing under the rug will probably look behind
the painting first every time they play (unless somebody tells them to
try the rug first) because they know that's where the object is, and
the same for players who look under the rug first, so that the
painting/rug choice could be used to set up events later in the game
in a consistant manner for a given player.  (I wonder how long it
would take a rug-picker and a painting-picker comparing notes to
figure out what caused them to play different games.)


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On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, Ethan d'Arcy wrote:

>     When I played out the Red Planet scene in Photopia, all illusion of an
> internally consistant world was broken.  The terrain was being altered to
> make sure I didn't screw up the story -- and not even behind my back!
>     I was totally annoyed because it felt like the game was holding my hand

How did you know?  Was it because of saving/restoring/undoing?  

Photopia seems designed to be played straight through without any saving
or undoing.  If you play it that way, then the experience *seems* very
interactive.  In real life you don't get a chance to go back and find out
what would have happened if you'd stopped the car sooner.

It seems you're faulting Photopia for not doing something it doesn't try
to do.  Sure, if the magician will submit to doing the trick again over
and over, you'll see it's not magic and just a trick.

SMTIRCAHIAGEHLT



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In article <3655d077.339818762@news.csupomona.edu>,
  icallaci@csupomona.edu wrote:

**********SPOILERS************







>
> This just about confirmed it in my mind, so I restarted, just to
> try a different path. Sure enough, the new path worked exactly
> like all the GO NORTHs had.
>

Am I the only one who thought this was cool?  (Not to mention "realistic"
within the context of a story being told to a child who probably wouldn't want
to hear about someone groping around on Mars trying to find stuff.

Actually, the only place this fell down for me was that I actually had more or
less departed "standard IF mode" (yes, very quickly) and was typing in:

> SEARCH FOR STUFF

and the parser didn't recognize the "search for" construct (regardless of the
DObj).	Then I got kind of miffed when I later tried to use a cardinal and
got back "you're not carrying a compass", since cardinals were called for
here.  If you think about it, they didn't need to be used: any command
resembling motion or searching could have worked alongside the scheme
implemented.

All in all, it was a very "trusting" experience for me. I didn't save or
restore and gave Mr. Cadre the benefit of the doubt.  I took off my IF hat, in
other words.  If it hadn't worked I'd've been cheezed off, tho'.

One other apparent glitch: I got out of the car right away, so the scene where
I was waking up in the hospital didn't make any sense.  I guess I must've been
the guy who stayed in the car at that point but it wasn't that clear, nor was
it clear how I knew how to ask about "the girl".

[ok]

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    


From bnewell@alum.mit.edu Sun Nov 22 23:10:37 MET 1998
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:39:26 -0600
From: Bob Newell <bnewell@alum.mit.edu>
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I find the threads interesting that criticize
Graham Nelson for not updating Inform more
frequently.

First, Graham has contributed an incalculable
amount to the I-F world, and we should not
forget this.

Second, he has done it all gratis.

Third, he in no way owes anyone anything--- in
fact, the opposite is true; the I-F world owes
him a great deal.

So, if Graham's life moves on--- if he is so
overwhelmed with e-mail that he simply hasn't
the time to deal with it--- if he doesn't have
the time or inclination to work further with
Inform at this time--- that's his call and we
owe it to him to respect his position, whether
tacit or expressed.

Things change over time.  I have not, and will not,
update the "Which System is Better" FAQ because
I can't any longer prioritize enough time to do
so.   But no one has stepped forward to take it
over, either... is this my problem?  Not really!

Let's not demand too much from a volunteer such
as Graham who has already contributed orders of
magnitude more than his fair share!

Bob Newell
Los Alamos, New Mexico


From erkyrath@netcom.com Sun Nov 22 23:11:07 MET 1998
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Michael Gentry (edromia@concentric.net) wrote:
> I thought this was kind of funny, in light of "Spider & Web":

> from Andrew's 1996 IF-comp review of "The Meteor, the Stone, the Long Glass
> of Sherbet":

> "The scenario is a little strangely presented, too. Your character has a
> 'secret mission' which you -- the player -- are not aware of. You have to
> infer it from hints in the game. It's not hard to figure out, especially by
> virtue of where the plot takes you. But it's the kind of thing I don't like
> in a game. "

> Obviously, Andrew, you have every right to change or reconceptualize your
> opinion; I'm just sharing this for its ironic chuckle value.

Gee, thanks.

--Z (I didn't change my opinion; *I* just did it *right*.)


-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu Mon Nov 23 11:40:45 MET 1998
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From: mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
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Here are mine, a little late (I had to string them together).
Comments on the ratings in general:

I was a playtester on a couple of games so couldn't rate them (Cattus
Atrox, Spacestation Transcript) and wasn't able to play the two DOS-
only games.  I don't have access to HTML from home, so I missed all 
the HTML-TADS finery, and played Photopia in B&W.  

My raw ratings went from 2 to 8, a change from last year's 1 to 9.  I
rescaled them a bit for voting, but in general that range reflects how
I felt about this year's competition.  Not nearly as many really
bad games:  not as many that really grabbed me either.

These reviews were written before I read anyone else's.  Looking
back over them there are things I might change, but I won't.

--

Rating 9

Photopia

I played the B&W version due to limitations of available 
interpreters, so no comments on the colors.

As a story Photopia is beautifully constructed:  the non-linear
storytelling works, both the literal and the symbolic segments
carry their weight, and the writing is moving.  I found myself
wondering if it had to be so sad, but that's true to its material.
(An aside to the author--is this based on a true story?)

It took me quite a while to realize that this tremendously non-
linear story is a tremendously linear game.  While the player's
actions do have some effect (I went back and tried to pull
Alley out of the pool the instant I heard the splash, because I
felt guilty about it, and the game does accomodate that choice) 
the effects appears to be very limited indeed--for long periods 
the player is not doing anything that hitting WAIT wouldn't 
accomplish, or else is being strongly cued as to what to do.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing.  While there is little
interactivity, there is plenty of complicity, as my guilt over
Alley in the pool demonstrates:  so the story would not have
worked as well in a non-interactive medium.  (I also feel bad
about the first and last scenes, but here the interactivity
appears to be a complete illusion:  at least, if there was 
anything I could do I never discovered it.)  For long stretches 
the game's unusual structure worked for me.  Only at a couple 
of points, most notably Alley's dream about the sea queen, did 
the lack of interaction translate to lack of engagement.

I needed hints twice during the story-telling scenes:  both times
I typed HELP and a hint was provided smoothly without any
interruption of the narrative.  This was very well handled.

The biggest problem I had with the game was in my initial reaction
to the storytelling scenes.  Dropped without explanation into
the tale of Wendy-the-astronaut, I didn't guess that she was a
child:  instead, I was constructing a rather ugly scenario in which
she was a token woman, chosen for looks rather than brains,
completing a meaningless mission purely for the publicity
value.  This left a bad flavor in my mouth for some time even 
after I realized what was going on.  I'm not sure how to fix this
problem, if indeed it was a problem for anyone else.

I don't think the format would support much replaying.  I'm curious
as to how bushy the decision tree actually is--are there whole
scenes I missed?  Heaven help me, is it possible to get to a
different ending?--but not curious enough to sit through the
static parts of the game repeatedly.  I think they would rapidly
lose their effectiveness.

The technical aspects of the game were fine.  The conversation menus
were faintly offputting in appearance, but that may just be that
I'm not used to seeing them in IF; in any case, this really is a
game for which standard IF conversation would probably not have 
worked at all.  I would have liked "examine me" to give a little
more detail when I was Wendy, but that's minor.

--

Rating 8

Trapped in a One-Room Dilly

One room games really had a bloom this competition.  I ended up 
playing "Enlightenment" and "Dilly" back to back, which makes it 
difficult not to compare them.  "Dilly" is a little more 
plainly written, with puzzles closer to common sense (though 
also closer, at times, to random searching).  The prose is not 
as stylish, but it's also free from "Enlightenment"'s sometimes 
excessive attitude.

I had fun playing the game.  With many of the puzzle-fests I
got frustrated quickly and resorted to hints:  here I made
progress fast enough, and enjoyed the process enough, to stick
with it.  I believe I was helped by the necessity to search for
objects:  in "Enlightenment" I had everything at the beginning,
or nearly so, and there were so many objects and possible
interactions that it was daunting.

Only two puzzles (out of quite a few) struck me as
problematic.  I could see the solution to the overall numbers
puzzle, but I couldn't figure out how to say it; and the very
last puzzle relies on manipulating an object in a way not
usually allowed in text adventures, with no cuing (i.e.
near misses didn't get encouraging responses.)

The tone of the game is quirky and hard to describe, but it's 
consistent and engaging.  I particularly liked the clock painting, 
the doll (even though the single bit of "assigning reactions to
the character" felt odd in a game that otherwise doesn't do that),
and the handling of the ending.

The hints were very well done, though previously viewed hints
should (if possible) all unfold at once, not have to be paged
through again.  

The game particularly shines in describing complex widgets
reasonably clearly--I could almost always figure out what I
was supposed to be seeing.  A few more synonyms in spots 
would help, but on the other hand I was pleasantly suprised that 
a game with this many panels and coins had so few disambiguation
problems.  My only other criticism of the coding is that a few
objects are "fake" (especially the bookshelves and notched
panel)--they have one use and don't exist for other purposes.
This would be okay in a more expansive game but is annoying
in a one-roomer.

Informatory

This is an odd game, uneven, sometimes funny, sometimes chokingly 
thick with in-jokes and references.  As a tutorial it's not particularly 
helpful, except for the look at coded objects (most not very complex, 
but still interesting).  As a pastiche it has good and bad spots--I 
liked the guard, the spell turning into an insect, and the thief.  The 
coding has some flaws--Toad is so lightly implemented that he's painful,
the crowbar sometimes glows even when you don't have it, and so forth.

I want a Codex Helmet to take home with me!  It's a truly nifty
toy.  I would have liked to see more along these lines:  the idea of
Inform as a magic language seems as though it could be a lot of
fun (though doubtless a bear to code).  Perhaps there's a whole game
in that idea by itself.  As it is, I think my excitement over this
idea carried the game for me.  Though the tone is different, this game
reminded me in significant ways of "A New Day" from Comp97:  both
succeeded for me on ideas even when the executation wasn't quite spot-
on.

The "final exam" was a little silly.  Being able to type in an example
without syntax errors is a pretty shallow exercise.  Better would be
a more detailed form of the quizzes, with perhaps a sample object to
act as a subject for the questions.  In general, though, the game's
uncertainty as to whether it was entertainment or education showed
up most strongly at the end, to the mild detriment of playability.
Maybe "A New Day" could give some hints as to how to make the 
code-examination more exciting or creepy.

I got through with no hints, which was somewhat gratifying, though
I used the helmet constantly so I'm not sure that's really "no
hints".

--

Rating 7

Enlightenment

This is a complex nest of linked object puzzles, set against a Zork
pastiche background.  The writing tone is flippant, but appropriately
so, and also manages to be scary once or twice (particularly near 
the end).  

The puzzles were clever and intricate:  however, I got frustrated 
quickly and resorted to hints.  On consideration, I think
there were two problems holding me back from engaging with the puzzles.
One was a lack of clarity in descriptions:  the gate was especially
problematic (I visualized a portcullis for a long time, but that will
never allow for the actual solutions).  Also, the troll's ability to
throw things back would make much more sense if the PC were in a
corridor ending in the chasm, not a ledge along the side of the chasm
as the description implied.

The other difficulty I had with the puzzles was that wrong actions
didn't always get helpful or encouraging responses, so I ruled out
several solutions on the grounds of "clearly the game isn't richly
implemented enough to allow that".  For example, at one point object
A must be attached to object B, but trying the equally reasonable
"attach B to A" gets a stock "you can't do that" error.  Sometimes
this sort of cuing *was* present, and was greatly appreciated, but
too often it was not.

It may be that presenting all the objects at once overloaded my brain:
I'm not a very good puzzle solver.  I noticed that "Dilly", which
presents the puzzles more slowly, was much easier for me to solve.

The hint system seemed a little buggy, but the hints themselves were
good:  I would never have persevered without them.  The snarky tone
in the hints seemed in the spirit of the game.

If someone was waxing nostalgic about the fun they had playing _Zork
II_ as a kid, this would *absolutely* be the game to give them.  I've
seen a lot of pastiches, but this one really captures the spirit of
game-play as well as setting.


Mother Loose

This game is set in a realistically-described nursery-rhyme land,
and requires the player to unravel several nursery rhymes.  (I 
wonder if players not from the US/England had any luck with it?)
It's well written and well coded, without jarring flaws in either.

I played the game through twice, with markedly different reactions.
The first time I was thinking "Only one solution per puzzle--seems
rather limited."  I was also thinking "I don't like being chided for
things I mostly couldn't avoid doing if I wanted to progress."

The text in AMUSING makes it clear that both of these were
misconceptions.  I went back, looking for alternative solutions, 
and found a lot more game than I'd realized.  I didn't
re-solve the game before my two hours ran out, but I got far
enough to confirm that, yes, there were alternative solutions, and
at least one didn't require reading the designer's mind, just thinking
about the puzzles in a different order.  I liked the game *much*
better after I learned this.  I don't know if this just indicates a
flaw in my approach as a player, or if there's something the game
could do to cue this earlier.

The writing tone was a bit jarring.  I think the seam between nursery-
rhyme logic and physics logic bothered me--when the game says
"wolf" should I envision a timber wolf or Wile E. Coyote?  Should
I be looking for magic solutions or physics ones?  This made the
puzzles a lot harder, especially the first time through, and also
muddied my esthetic response to the game.

Some of the puzzles might profit from a bit more cueing in the
objects' responses to wrong solutions.  Nothing you do with the
wool, except the right thing, is encouraging.  

The NPCs were quite lively:  I was particularly impressed that
Mary knew almost all of my stock (admittedly small) of knock-knock
jokes, and at least one more besides.  The wolf stayed on the right
side of the "amusing/annoying" line.

The clues worked for me, though previously seen clues should
appear all at once, not have to be paged through.  I also
found the closing off of the clues after the puzzle was solved
mildly annoying--if I am asking for a clue to a solved puzzle,
I must want it for some reason (in this case, to see if it
was a good one).

--

Rating 6

The City

An exercise in surrealism.

This small game has an intriguing situation and some nice, albeit
spare, use of language.  The coding is a bit flawed, however, which
hampered me in solving the puzzles--I kept dismissing the solutions
because I "knew" the game wasn't richly enough coded to have that
verb.  I hit one awful disambiguation problem (involving the cable)
and several missing commands or awkward phrasings.

I wanted the tape to do more than it did--give a hint in some way,
maybe.  I was fascinated by the idea of a game in which the player
had to follow a set of instructions and then pick the right spot
to diverge--rather like "Spider and Web", on consideration, and
this game reminded me of "Spider" quite a bit, but it didn't do as
much with the idea.

This could be quite a nice short piece with a little more work
on nouns and verbs.  A few messages also seemed misleading, such
as the refusal of "up" even though there did turn out to be a
way to do it (and yet "up" works later in a rather less likely
situation).  While I would normally be against the disabling of
standard features, it was less annoying here because the game was
so short (though still not necessary, in my opinion). 


The Ritual of Purification

I am fond of the concept (an occult ritual of self-transformation)
and in spots the game backs it up with effective, if purple,
prose.  But if a game is going to be intense in the way this one 
tries to be, it doesn't get much slack for implementation.  Breaking 
mimesis is relatively more troublesome here than in a puzzle game, 
and "Ritual" is pretty buggy.  If you get the actions relevant to 
the angel out of order they produce only blank lines.  NPCs are 
ignorant of essential topics.  In general, you can't solve a puzzle 
until you receive the clue, which breaks the mood if the player 
happens to have the insight by herself.

Occultly speaking, it strikes me as a flaw that two of the solutions
to the quarter-puzzles are so similar, and that the daemon and hell
hound practically tell you exactly what to do.  There is also less
interactivity than there could be, with a couple of long set-pieces
in which the ability to do anything is purely illusory.

With more polish I think I could like this one quite a lot.  As it
stands, I was willing to play through twice and try a lot of the
AMUSING options.  It's a nice length.  

The ending was definitely the best part:  I had a nice roll of doing
things as I thought of them and getting good responses, which I
really enjoy in a game (and which earlier parts of the game didn't
often manage).

The final combat worked much better for me when I was female than
when I was male, which may be a psychological quirk of my own.
There is, however, an annoying bug in that the wraith's gender
is not set properly when the player is female, so the wraith
can't be referred to as "her".


The Plant

I can't comment on the use of HTML-TADS here, only on text.

This game is well coded and cleanly written, with prose ranging from
workmanlike to very effective.  However, a couple of design decisions
didn't work for me at all, which detracted greatly from the effect.

The protagonist is very Everyman, a corporate employee on his way
to a meeting with his boss.  This doesn't give him adequate motivation
for much of what he has to do, especially the life-threatening parts,
but also some of the magpie-like object acquisition.  I had the strong
feeling at many points that I was going forward with the adventure
only because the game required it in order to progress.  

A large number of the puzzles hinge on "search everything", and again
this is unmotivated.  This was particularly frustrating in the rebate
warehouse.  Messages discouraged me from searching the desks and
piles of paper, so it didn't occur to me to search some other, 
nominally ordinary, features of the room.  (Also, "you wouldn't want
to steal someone else's mail" doesn't wash when you've already
stolen their cards, their dog, and their dog harness....)  I found
the solution only by the accident of a disambiguation question.
This is standard text-adventure stuff, but I wasn't expecting it
and it did bother me.

The author deliberately made it impossible to die, but in a couple
of scenes this strains plausibility badly:  the guards, in particular,
are absurdly ineffectual, and I don't see why the Plant operatives
let the characters go so easily at the end.  They were just willing to
shoot down a large group of people--why not shoot the main characters?

Some of the scenes were really vivid--I liked the Moose Dog, the
fight outside the gates, the lightning striking the towers. 
I enjoyed the slow buildup of suspicion about a major
NPC.  The rebate warehouse was also a very well-realized location.  
(The old schoolhouse was cardboard by contrast.)  Creeping through
the plant was tense, and the descriptions generally allowed me to
visualize the action clearly.  The puzzles, once I found all their
parts, were well done.

--

Rating 5

Little Blue Men

I have really mixed feelings about this game.  It got my attention--
parts of it are tense, disturbing, they evoke fairly strong reactions.
One of the reactions, however, was "yick, do I have to play this?"
The relentless barrage of "the PC is a nasty person", so that there
was little chance I'd identify with him or care what happened to
him, got seriously annoying quite early on.

I almost missed that there's a whole game here by finding the
early-win branch early on (this competition has so many very short
games, I just thought it was another one).

There are some minor annoyances involving disambiguation: when
faced with a gray button and a bottle of gray pills, it's not very
logical that "push gray" gets an error about pills.  There's a much
more serious set of bugs involving daemons.  Daemons meant to
prevent you from doing something involve a certain character's
intervention, but they continue after he's dead.  And it's
possible to get into a secret area and then be whisked mysteriously
out by a daemon continuing to run after it should have been
cancelled.  (I don't think it's actually supposed to be possible
to get into the secret area before you shut that daemon off, but
it *is* possible, and the results are totally illogical.)

One necessary object is so inapparent that even after I read the
hint and knew where it was and what it was, I never managed to
see it in any description:  I just had to pretend I knew it was
there.  In general, I had to use the hints constantly; though
part of that was impatience, some of the puzzles were obscure.

Some bits are missing from the office:  surely Furman had a chair?
One might expect Biedermeyer did too?  Since many of the puzzles
seem best approached by "search everything, try everything, take
everything" it's noticable when something is missing.

On the other hand, some of the puzzles are quite nice:  I like the
way the getting-rid-of-Benson puzzle involves so many steps, yet
is reasonably intuitive (I did several of the steps just on
spec, before I figured out the goal, and only needed hints
once).  The writing tone is unpleasant, but it's consistent and
effective:  two of the NPCs are quite clearly drawn.  (The revelations
about Furman bugged me, but they bugged me in just the right
way.)

UNDO is your friend, and frequent SAVES are in order too.

I don't know what to say about the ending.  It left a bitter taste
in my mouth, but it's consistent with the rest of the game.  I think,
however, I might have been happier with the ambiguous ending from
"Dilly".  (It's odd how closely related the endings of "The City",
"Dilly", and "Little Blue Men" are.)


Muse:  An Autumm Romance

A period piece:  past tense, historical setting, carefully described
protagonist who won't talk to people he's not been introduced to.
I'm reminded of Christminster quite a lot.  The time system is
also Christminster's:  time advances only to suit the plot.

It's prettily written and mostly well coded, though like most
games it's been beta-tested more near the beginning than near
the end.  (Many locations are coded for day and make no sense at
night.)  The NPCs work well when you are on the plot track, not
so well if you digress.  Some of the NPC interaction commands were 
problematic:  specifically "ask x for y" often got nonsense results, 
insisting that x was not in scope even when he plainly was.

The use of past tense and first person rather than second didn't
strike me as making much difference, except that the occasional
Dawson-speaking-to-me bits ("Do you want me to do that?") were
exceedingly jarring.  "I didn't know that verb" was also bad.  I'd
recommend an anonymous computer error message instead:  "[unknown
verb]".  For a while I had the impression that Dawson was telling
me this as a story, and I was a rather gauche child suggesting
things for him to do (and being refused).  But this didn't feel
carried through consistently.

The hints are adequate but rather catty (I'm not a fan of fake
hints) and do not help if you diverge from the main path--
there are apparently other endings, but you're on your own to
find any of them.  The Christminster-style timing is a problem
here:  nothing advances if you dither, except during one
sharply timed sequence.

I found it cold, though.  I didn't feel the protagonist's affection
for Konstanza; and the way he had to blunder around to work 
through the plot further alienated me.  Several of the "puzzles"
seemed very arbitrary, especially coaxing Konstanza to talk
and changing rooms (I actually thought of that, but abandoned
the idea after some discouraging error messages).  I also didn't
like the way that the game seemed to close off without notice,
for example if Viktor was allowed to die.  I want the game to
end, not just become stagnant, but I could find no way to proceed
to any ending after Viktor's death.

And somehow it just didn't look or feel or sound (whatever, I'm not
sure) like autumn.

The red-herring hints included a ghost and a fight scene.  Call me
a philistine (I suspect the author would) but I missed them.  I
don't necessarily dislike romances, but this one didn't work for
me as such.

I believe that the main problem was Konstanza, who is a bit too much
of an archetype to really resonate for me as a love interest.  She
doesn't seem to have any interests or life outside of her family
history and her current situation.  (This is exacerbated by the
abstracting away of small talk between her and the protagonist.)
I don't know if this is a male/female thing, but I just couldn't
feel the situation as at all romantic without having more sense of
a real, quirky, flesh-and-blood woman there.  I know that would
be terribly hard to code, but there's no way around it if the romance
is to work for me.  (I have only had IF romance work for me once,
in _Jigsaw_, but that at least proves it's possible.)

It's interesting that Konstanza has plenty of history, which is supposed
to flesh a character out, but that wasn't enough.  I wanted to hear
her reacting to her environment more:  noticing things, talking to
people.  Instead she stands and stares a lot, or has conversations which
are abstracted away.  

I will end by saying that it's a credit to the author that I can
criticize an NPC on such subtle grounds:  he set himself a very hard
problem, and while he wasn't entirely successful, he got surprisingly
far with it.

--

Rating 4

Downtown Tokyo.  Present Day.

A monster movie, from the dual point of view of hero and viewer.

Well, it's cute, original, and fairly well programmed, though I
think the text could give more help in figuring out what to do.
On the other hand, there's really very little to it.  A few minutes'
diversion, that's all.  The dual-viewpoint trick isn't used for
much of anything other than a couple of throwaway jokes.

The interactivity comes close to being an illusion in many spots--
there is nothing you can do, or only one thing.  But this is
tolerable in such a short, simple game.  The "graphics" are cute,
the reactions of people in the background shots are cute; I'm not
sure why the game as a whole didn't grab me more than it did.  Maybe
I have a distaste for the player-as-movie-audience concept after
some bad experiences with it in roleplaying games.  Maybe I'm just
really tired of giant monsters.

Purple

There's some really nice worldbuilding here, from the attractive
slight alienness of the initial scenes (they remind me of "Spider and
Web", and not in a bad way) to the blatant alienness of the later
ones.  Good glimpses of character (I particularly like the squirrel),
good atmosphere. 

But.  It's really abominably coded.  I was supposed to close the
bomb shelter door, but couldn't manage to refer to it successfully
(trapped in a disambiguation question with no way out).  The couch
in the first room is covered with stuff, but empty when examined
or searched, and the stuff doesn't exist.  Large numbers of
reasonable commands just don't work.  The cord becomes invisible
halfway through its use in a puzzle--you're carrying it, but it's
neither in inventory nor in room descriptions.  The walkthrough
refers to things like night coming, but night never comes.
Karl obnoxiously asks for things you've already given him (perhaps
they were given out of order?) and sometimes seems to say things
even when not present.

"Purple" was fun to read.  It was not fun to play, though:  too
much wrestling with the parser.  And the final extended puzzle
didn't work even as fiction--I wasn't able to suspend disbelief
for this exercise of mad science.  Something a little more
mundane would be better.

This can't have been betatested much at all.  Pity, too:  it has
a lot of potential.  I hope the author will do another round of
beta and re-release it.  There's a jewel in here somewhere, but
it's really rough right now.  


The Persistance of Memory

The situation is arresting, and the prose is good, though it could
be a little wordier--what kind of houses?  What color is the mud?

Unfortunately, if you are going to pin the player in one spot, 
you really have to allow for the broadest possible range of actions
>from that spot that you can.  Otherwise it quickly becomes 
frustrating and alienating.  This is where "Persistance of Memory"
fell down:  there were just too many unrecognized commands,
giving me the feeling of being trapped by the parser rather than the 
land mine.  

I feel that more effort should have been made to avoid the learn-
by-dying syndrome, since it greatly diluted the emotional impact.
For example, the game could have said "Your training made it 
graphically clear what will happen if you step off an armed mine"
rather than blowing the PC up.  The game would be most emotionally
effective if played through in one pass (rather like "Photopia")
but it is so lethal, as it stands, that this is practically 
impossible.

There were also places where alternative solutions would be very
good.  What happens if the PC throws his gun down and shows open
hands, for example?  (The game simply doesn't allow this.)

There is some attempt to hint at actions within the text, but these
hints are sometimes too blatant.  The regular hints frustrated me
quite a lot at first:  I was looking for "how do I get off the land
mine" and presumed when I didn't find it that I was just being
stupid (stuck on the very first puzzle!).  This should probably 
be listed, if only with a nudge that you can't do it.

With more attention to details of coding, "Persistance of Memory"
could be quite effective:  the central image will certainly stay 
with me. 

--

Rating 3

Where Evil Dwells

A house exploration game:  this gives it a hurdle to overcome, since
house exploration has been really common in the competition.

"Evil"'s first problem is that it's not sure what tone it's
aming for:  purple-prose Lovecraft, wise-aleck humor, hard-boiled
detective.  The combination didn't work for me:  the purple
prose was kind of fun, but it was undercut by silliness like
the imp.  If I tried to respond to the game as humor, the purple
prose was just tedious, not funny.  The imp wasn't funny anyway.

Its second problem is that the plot and setting are very well-
worn indeed, and it doesn't show much flair in using them. 
Evil painting; secret laboratory; kitchen with disgusting
things in it; ordinary bathroom; diaries revealing the plotline....
In a couple of places the writing sparkles, but not enough to
overcome the routine storyline.

Its third problem is that the puzzles are either boring (look
somewhere to find a key, look around to find a matching lock) or
unmotivated (give the monster something that needs opening--
why would I expect to get it back?)

And the final one is that the coding, though not as bad as in "Purple",
is fairly prefunctory.  The room connections in the attic are
messed up.  Actions that should only happen once can be repeated
with odd results (i.e. blowing up the stones).  Scenery objects
are missing:  for example, the prominant table, chairs and chandelier
in the dining room are all "You can't see any such thing."  The
choice of locations to code is also questionable:  areas like
"northwest end of lawn" don't add to anything but tedium.

The sparkly bits did sparkle, though.  Dying in the woods was well 
done, though it doesn't make sense in the plotline--apparently the 
cultists have already summoned something Big, so why is stopping 
their summoning adequate?  The little girl's diary catches the right
note.  Death in the well is also good.  The author shows some
promise at faux Lovecraft, if he can carry it through more
consistently.   (Why are deaths often the best part?  This was also
true of last year's "Symetry".)


Research Dig

A rather short game--in fact, it looks as though the coder had a lot
of ideas to go further, but ran out of time.  There are unopened
doors and undeveloped ideas left over at the end.  I like the basic
premise, and the underground complex is quite pretty and intruiging,
but there's no development.

The game's main technical flaw is prefunctory coding.  Most of the 
needed scenery is not defined, including things like "The predominant
feature of the room is X" followed distressingly by "You can't
see any X here" when it's examined.  There are so few objects that
it's a good guess each one found is essential:  conversely, I
never found a single topic I could look up in the "referance"
book.

Like "Where Evil Dwells" the game also defines more locations
than it needs:  tighter coding of a smaller area would be an
improvement.

The manuvers used to keep the player from doing unwanted things are
contrived--I can't get over a child gate?  The book-protecting panels 
"aren't something you can open"?

The plot could use rethinking in certain aspects.  The PC is asked 
to behave like a "characterless magpie" at one moment and respect 
property rights at the next.  I am willing to accept that a good 
archeologist doesn't break things in peoples' houses.  I suspect 
she doesn't really desecrate graves for no reason either!
I also wonder why the wee folk let her do what she did; they
certainly didn't cotton to the other character doing so.

With considerably more polishing this game could sparkle:  I would
love to explore the underground complex in a leisurely, detailed,
archeologist-like fashion.


CC

First off, ALAN seems to work okay, though I don't care for its
style of error messages--they seem a bit snarky.  UNDO would be
nice, and G for "again", but they're not essential.

The game is short, terse, and (as its author says) rather meaningless.
Very few words are recognized, so you can accomplish most of what
you need to just by noting what words you *can* use.  There is
one actual puzzle, kind of a neat one though it has nothing to do
with anything else in the game.  (One of the best moments in the
game involved CC free-associating off the nonsense words produced
by the puzzle.  It got a definite chuckle from me.)

Surrealism is in, but I would find it more effective here with
more lavish descriptions and more conversation with CC.  Who is
not a bad NPC, far from it--he responded to more things than I
expected--but with such a bare stage, he needs to be really
exceptional.

I don't quite know why I liked this game better than some which were
more lavishly coded and made more sense.  Something about tone, I
guess.  I'd like to see the author do a richer work in the same
tone.

--

Rating 2


Acid Whiplash

This was painful in many of the same ways as "Symetry" and
didn't pay off as well.  (I confess, I got a kick out of "Symetry.")
It's better coded, but there are only a few points where the
writing is purple enough for me (mainly the barrel scene).  I'm
afraid I was very bored by the interview.  I don't like interviews
in static media, and hitting <return> doesn't make them any
livelier.

I would not have finished the game, except I happened to see a
hint on the newgroup--I would have given up at the hat.  The
author(s) didn't even manage the bare task of convincing me
there'd be a solution, much less motivating me to keep looking.

I think being weird just for effect is less effective, at least for
me, that being weird in the pursuit of something else.


In the Spotlight

We seem to be seeing some kind of reaction against the rather
long games of COMP96 and COMP97....

This is one room, one puzzle, a handful of objects.  The puzzle
was spoilt for me by being a familiar one (it's in Martin Gardner's
collection _Aha! Insight_ among other places).  I think if I hadn't
known it, I would have found it quite difficult but not terribly
fun--it's a lateral-thinking puzzle, so there's no progress to be
made by playing with the available objects.  You get it or you
don't.

As a piece of code it's pretty well done, though with a few flaws.
Why does a game with only a handful of objects bother to implement
a carrying capacity limit less than that?  The annoyance value 
of "You're carrying too many things already" is not balanced by
any kind of payoff, since the game does not try for realism and
inventory management is not an issue.  Also, scissors are plural
and should respond to "them" rather than "it".  Alternative
wrong solutions to the central puzzle are ruled out by fiat
(you can't cut that, you can't burn that, etc.) rather than by
the physics of the situation (in real life you *could* cut that,
but it wouldn't help).


Fifteen

For the first several turns I was quite excited by this game,
because I was expecting something creepy and self-referential
along the lines of last year's "A New Day", or funny and
self-referential a la "Sins Against Mimesis".  But no, it really
is just a dead-simple treasure hunt.  The descriptions
are spare to the point of nonexistance ("you see nothing special
about the RUBY"), the puzzles are routine.  Luckily it's very
short.

The coding is clean, except for a lack of synonyms for nouns and
verbs:  this is Inform straight out of the box.  One of the
puzzles, while tedious, is cleverly implemented so that you can
string commands together, reducing the tedium significantly.
The writing is mainly prefunctory, though the kitten shows some 
flair. 

This game makes me realize that one of my criteria for a good puzzle
is that once I grasp the principle, I should be able to solve it
promptly.  The "site" puzzle violates this criterion:  I realized
very early what the underlying principle was, but still had to
fuss with the thing for quite a while.  On the other hand, a
true puzzle afficionado will appreciate that the site puzzle
is a kind of comment on the title puzzle.


Four in One

The premise is kind of cute--try to get all four Marx Brothers on
the set at once so that you can shoot a scene.  But...the game
feels like being in an overcrowded MUD.  Lots of faceless people
rushing about everywhere:

Chico is here.
A costumed extra is here.
Martha is here.
....

on and on for half a screen.  I suspect I was supposed to figure
out who they all were and use them to accomplish my goals, but I
simply couldn't bring myself to care.  I wasn't able to spot any
puzzles in twenty minutes of play, and the idea of questioning
all those people, losing on time, starting over and trying to
make some sense of the information overload just didn't appeal to
me.  It's particularly unfortunate that the single time limit
almost guarantees that you'll have to start over, and over, and
over--save games are unlikely to be helpful, since until you figure
out the time-saving sequence you can't make a correct save game.

I'm not sure I judged this fairly, except that one of a game's tasks
is to draw the player in and make her want to play more, and 
FOURIN1 failed at this for me.  I'm probably the wrong audience for
it anyway:  old movies don't have a lot of magic for me, and
I don't recognize any of these people exept the Marx Brothers
themselves.

--

Rating 1

Lightiania

Okay, English is not the author's first language, and this wasn't
spell-checked or beta-tested.  I could work around that.  But it's
not finished either, as the author himself says.  It's really a
stub of a game--lots of locations, but almost no action.

I'm really tired of having to search every noun in sight to find
keys.  

The situation doesn't make much sense.  How did the card get
outside the ship?  Where did the aliens go?  For that matter,
where are controls for flying the ship or retracting its
bridge?  And, goodness knows, why am I willing to fly off and
die in an alien spacecraft held together by chewing gum?

I think there was going to be an interesting game here, one with some
payoff for the rather good setup of the protagonist:  but the game got
submitted to the competition way too early.  I hope the author will
give it another try.


Human Resources Stories

This would have made an...interesting lead-in for a game.  Preferably
one that did something clever with the player's answers.  As it is...
it's a quiz, neatly enough implemented in Inform, but of quite limited
entertainment value.  Maybe a little zing due to complicity--when I
figured out some of the answers it wanted, I felt squeamish about
giving them.  Still, pretty thin stuff.  It contains some internal
criticisms (it calls itself boring, ungamelike and unfair) which are
unfortunately pretty accurate.

--

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Mon Nov 23 11:44:49 MET 1998
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
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Subject: That wonderful click (was Mary's COMP98 reviews)
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I've been closely following, but for the most part not responding to, the 
Photopia discussion threads, for fear of having a chilling effect on the 
conversation.  But this particular branch has wandered far enough into 
the realm of storytelling technique that I feel okay about jumping in -- 
and keeping it in the arts group, rather than shunting it over to rgif.

Photopia spoilers follow.

Marnie Parker wrote:
> The story telling scenes didn't work for me exactly because I didn't 
> know they were story telling scenes. I didn't like the confusion 
> between the two girls (which I suspect was deliberate to keep the 
> player guessing).

Yes, it's deliberate.  (As a friend of ours is wont to say.)

> I have thought about it since, I would have prefered to KNOW I was 
> partaking in a bedtime story and I don't think Photopia would have lost 
> a thing by it.

I strongly disagree.  But let me put more pots on the table before saying 
why.

> >Wendy got down from the ship...
> >
> >Then what did I do?
> >
> >Then Wendy...

Joe Mason replied: 
> Sorry, I hate this idea.  I thought the voice worked perfectly the way 
> it was.  All that's needed is to *know* that this is a story being told 
> before going in.
>
> To do that, I'd just move the epigraph.  Begin with the "Speeding Down
> Montgomery Boulevard" scene, then pop up the "RED" box, then the "Will you
> read me a story?" box, then start the scene.
> 
> That'll give more of a clue.  I think it definitely works better knowing those
> scenes are a story being told going in then it would if you didn't know what
> was going on.

I disagree with this too.

For me, one of the greatest pleasures of narrative is the sense of things 
clicking -- for a whole bunch of stuff that I didn't really understand to
suddenly make sense.  For that to happen, though, the author has hand me 
a bunch of things that I'm not supposed to have any kind of clue about 
yet.  And as long as I know that it's deliberate, I *love* that.  I stash 
the bits I don't get into my mental trophy case, knowing that they're 
going to turn into treasure once the key to piecing it all together is 
revealed.

When the RED title appears on screen and suddenly you're told that you're 
the first girl on the red planet, you're not supposed to have any idea 
what just happened.  I don't want the player to know that who's telling 
the story to whom, or even that it's a story at all.  The response I want 
you as a first-time player to have is "What the hell is this?"  I want 
you to be a little bewildered and nervous about the transition.  I also 
want you to trust that I know what I'm doing.

A related pleasure of narrative that I greatly enjoy is that of *thinking*
that I know the significance of something, and then discovering that it 
had an extra dimension of which I'd been unaware.  Watching young Charles 
Foster Kane playing with his sled has a whole new kick to it the second 
time you see the movie, for instance.  The examples are countless, but 
here's one that just popped into my head: Fantastic Four #352.  Most 
mainstream comics have covers that depict a representative scene from the 
story, and this seemed to be the case with FF #352: Reed Richards 
emerging from the aftermath of an explosion... with a little clock in the 
corner, but whatever.  So I start the story.  Fairly standard superhero 
fare, but then midway through the story, the pages are split vertically 
between a color portion and a black-and-white portion.  (Hmm.  
Unconscious parallel #1.)  In the black-and-white portion, Reed Richards 
(who has somehow escaped from a deathtrap, though we're not told how) 
and Dr. Doom are blipping around the timestream: to follow their battle, 
you have to follow the clocks that appear when they blip out.  If it says 
"1:08" in the little blip-out symbol, you turn to the page that takes 
place at 1:08 -- where everyone else in the story other than those two is 
experiencing things in linear time.  At one point, Doom tries to zap 
Reed, and Reed shunts the blast off to 12:33, while staying put himself.

12:33, is, of course, what the clock on the cover read.  The cover, it 
turned out, was a panel of the story, which occurred at the beginning of 
the linear chronology of that story, but toward the end of the string of 
events of which the story was comprised.  The cover, it turned out, was 
simultaneously the beginning of the story (revealing how Reed escaped 
>from the deathtrap to begin with -- he blew it up with a blast from the 
future! Time loop!) and the climax of it... and at the time I was looking 
at the cover, I HAD NO IDEA.  I'd thought it was just a cover: 
nondiegetic, no more part of the story than a book jacket is part of a 
novel.  It blew my mind.

To have discovered that my previous understanding was wrong, that the 
authors had deliberately steered me into a misconception about the 
significance of the cover, was WONDERFUL.  The idea of feeling "cheated" 
or "misled" by something like this could not possibly be more alien to 
me.  And so here's unconscious parallel #2: the "epigraph" of Photopia is 
meant to have the same kind of effect on the player.  You *think* you 
know what epigraphs are: just little quotes to set a mood, but lying 
outside the story.  Only at the end of Photopia are you supposed to 
realize, wait, that box was *part* of the story -- it fits in right 
before the red planet part!  *Placing* it before the red planet part 
would destroy that moment of realization, and thus be a major mistake.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr


From dg@ Mon Nov 23 13:09:55 MET 1998
Article: 50697 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: dg@ (David Given)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: A Fable: MegaZeux.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:05:35 GMT
Organization: I'm organised? Wow!
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:50697

In article <19981119024854.01649.00001184@ng139.aol.com>,
LucFrench <lucfrench@aol.com> wrote:
[...]
>ZZT ended (although not died; it's still around) with version 3.1 (or was that
>3.2?), when the creator deleted the Pascal source code. (Yes, Pascal. Turbo
>Pascal, if that redeems it in any way.)
[...]
>He took the lessons he learned from that, and made a system based upon ZZT
>named MegaZeux. It featured a better language for programming objects (objects
>in ZZT being the device for building anything not supplied by the game system
>itself), with byte compiling of the objects for greater speed, as well as real
>game protection, and the system for hacking with the characters and colors.
[...]
>Eventually, MegaZeux went away, primarily due to the fact that the author had
>vanished, and the system itself was no longer supported. The author had not
>released the source code, so nobody could pick up maintance for him.
[...]

ZZT came, had a decent lifespan, and died. It was succeeded by MegaZeux.
That came, had a decent lifespan, and died. MegaZeux in turn was succeeded
by Verge. Verge is currently alive and well.

Moral: no program lasts forever. At some point it becomes more appropriate
to redesign and rewrite than to patch an old system. ZZT supported
character cell graphics. MegaZeux came along later, and allowed EGA
redefining of the characters. Verge was later still, and moved to a
multi-layer 256-colour VGA tile system. With each incarnation, the
scripting languages got more sophisticated. ZZT had ROBOT, that, I
believe, didn't have conditional branches. Verge has VergeC, which is
extremely sophisticated.

Perhaps Inform has reached a point where it's *not* appropriate to enhance
it further. It does its job, and extremely well (likewise, ZZT games are
still great fun, and extremely hard --- they'd appeal to the IF mindset,
actually, I'd recommend getting a copy of _Caverns Of_). But if we want
new features, perhaps we should start again from scratch and design a new
system. One that doesn't have a 64kB RAM limit, for example. The Z-machine
has already been extended in a variety of unpleasant ways to compensate
for original flaws.

Unmaintained != Not useful.


-- 
+- David Given ----------------+ 
|  Work: dg@tao.co.uk          | Reality is for people who can't cope
|  Play: dgiven@iname.com      | with science fiction.             
+- http://wiredsoc.ml.org/~dg -+ 


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Mon Nov 23 16:10:51 MET 1998
Article: 50985 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!godzilla4.acpub.duke.edu!adamc
From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Genre blending (was Mary's COMP98 reviews)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:22:30 -0500
Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA
Lines: 47
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:50985

Photopia spoilers follow.

Marnie Parker wrote:
> Okay, one last time and that is it.
> 
> I shouldn't have used the word science-fiction. That was unclear. I 
> should have said *real-life* or reality.
> 
> (BTW - to me they are quite different genres. One can mix them, but I don't
> expect to see magic in a science-ficiton book. I also don't expect to see
> golden rings on golden beaches either. If I do, I probably won't read it
> because to me it isn't good..)
> 
> Scene 1   real-life street & frat boys
> Scene 2   apparently real life   Wendy on Mars
> Scene 3   real-life   Mom saves Ally from pool
> Scene 4   Wendy goes to undersea castle then golden beach and has wings
> 
> Huh? What? Did I miss something? Real-life to fantasy?

I took a class on fantasy literature when I was at Berkeley.  Pretty much 
every book on the reading list was just like this: combining gritty 
realism with fantasy, and throwing into question the boundaries between 
the two.  That's what makes it interesting.  That's what makes it 
literature and not genre hackwork.

For what it's worth, here are some of the books I'm talking about:

Crowley, LITTLE, BIG
Dick, THE DIVINE INVASION
Lindsay, A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS
Murakami, HARD-BOILED WONDERLAND AND THE END OF THE WORLD
Ryman, WAS
Tepper, BEAUTY

There are more, but anyway, look at any of these books -- especially the 
last three, which I really enjoyed (and most especially WAS.)  They're 
all, in my opinion, far superior to the conventional fantasy which I was 
to a certain extent reacting against in writing Photopia.  The whole idea 
of genres gives me the creeps.  If one of your criticisms of Photopia is 
that it shatters these artificial boundaries you've constructed for 
yourself, here's my answer: thanks.  That's one of the kindest 
compliments I could possibly receive.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Mon Nov 23 21:54:45 MET 1998
Article: 50985 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!godzilla4.acpub.duke.edu!adamc
From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Genre blending (was Mary's COMP98 reviews)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:22:30 -0500
Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA
Lines: 47
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:50985

Photopia spoilers follow.

Marnie Parker wrote:
> Okay, one last time and that is it.
> 
> I shouldn't have used the word science-fiction. That was unclear. I 
> should have said *real-life* or reality.
> 
> (BTW - to me they are quite different genres. One can mix them, but I don't
> expect to see magic in a science-ficiton book. I also don't expect to see
> golden rings on golden beaches either. If I do, I probably won't read it
> because to me it isn't good..)
> 
> Scene 1   real-life street & frat boys
> Scene 2   apparently real life   Wendy on Mars
> Scene 3   real-life   Mom saves Ally from pool
> Scene 4   Wendy goes to undersea castle then golden beach and has wings
> 
> Huh? What? Did I miss something? Real-life to fantasy?

I took a class on fantasy literature when I was at Berkeley.  Pretty much 
every book on the reading list was just like this: combining gritty 
realism with fantasy, and throwing into question the boundaries between 
the two.  That's what makes it interesting.  That's what makes it 
literature and not genre hackwork.

For what it's worth, here are some of the books I'm talking about:

Crowley, LITTLE, BIG
Dick, THE DIVINE INVASION
Lindsay, A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS
Murakami, HARD-BOILED WONDERLAND AND THE END OF THE WORLD
Ryman, WAS
Tepper, BEAUTY

There are more, but anyway, look at any of these books -- especially the 
last three, which I really enjoyed (and most especially WAS.)  They're 
all, in my opinion, far superior to the conventional fantasy which I was 
to a certain extent reacting against in writing Photopia.  The whole idea 
of genres gives me the creeps.  If one of your criticisms of Photopia is 
that it shatters these artificial boundaries you've constructed for 
yourself, here's my answer: thanks.  That's one of the kindest 
compliments I could possibly receive.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Tue Nov 24 12:45:58 MET 1998
I've been closely following, but for the most part not responding to, the 
Photopia discussion threads, for fear of having a chilling effect on the 
conversation.  But this particular branch has wandered far enough into 
the realm of storytelling technique that I feel okay about jumping in -- 
and keeping it in the arts group, rather than shunting it over to rgif.

Photopia spoilers follow.

Marnie Parker wrote:
> The story telling scenes didn't work for me exactly because I didn't 
> know they were story telling scenes. I didn't like the confusion 
> between the two girls (which I suspect was deliberate to keep the 
> player guessing).

Yes, it's deliberate.  (As a friend of ours is wont to say.)

> I have thought about it since, I would have prefered to KNOW I was 
> partaking in a bedtime story and I don't think Photopia would have lost 
> a thing by it.

I strongly disagree.  But let me put more pots on the table before saying 
why.

> >Wendy got down from the ship...
> >
> >Then what did I do?
> >
> >Then Wendy...

Joe Mason replied: 
> Sorry, I hate this idea.  I thought the voice worked perfectly the way 
> it was.  All that's needed is to *know* that this is a story being told 
> before going in.
>
> To do that, I'd just move the epigraph.  Begin with the "Speeding Down
> Montgomery Boulevard" scene, then pop up the "RED" box, then the "Will you
> read me a story?" box, then start the scene.
> 
> That'll give more of a clue.  I think it definitely works better knowing those
> scenes are a story being told going in then it would if you didn't know what
> was going on.

I disagree with this too.

For me, one of the greatest pleasures of narrative is the sense of things 
clicking -- for a whole bunch of stuff that I didn't really understand to
suddenly make sense.  For that to happen, though, the author has hand me 
a bunch of things that I'm not supposed to have any kind of clue about 
yet.  And as long as I know that it's deliberate, I *love* that.  I stash 
the bits I don't get into my mental trophy case, knowing that they're 
going to turn into treasure once the key to piecing it all together is 
revealed.

When the RED title appears on screen and suddenly you're told that you're 
the first girl on the red planet, you're not supposed to have any idea 
what just happened.  I don't want the player to know that who's telling 
the story to whom, or even that it's a story at all.  The response I want 
you as a first-time player to have is "What the hell is this?"  I want 
you to be a little bewildered and nervous about the transition.  I also 
want you to trust that I know what I'm doing.

A related pleasure of narrative that I greatly enjoy is that of *thinking*
that I know the significance of something, and then discovering that it 
had an extra dimension of which I'd been unaware.  Watching young Charles 
Foster Kane playing with his sled has a whole new kick to it the second 
time you see the movie, for instance.  The examples are countless, but 
here's one that just popped into my head: Fantastic Four #352.  Most 
mainstream comics have covers that depict a representative scene from the 
story, and this seemed to be the case with FF #352: Reed Richards 
emerging from the aftermath of an explosion... with a little clock in the 
corner, but whatever.  So I start the story.  Fairly standard superhero 
fare, but then midway through the story, the pages are split vertically 
between a color portion and a black-and-white portion.  (Hmm.  
Unconscious parallel #1.)  In the black-and-white portion, Reed Richards 
(who has somehow escaped from a deathtrap, though we're not told how) 
and Dr. Doom are blipping around the timestream: to follow their battle, 
you have to follow the clocks that appear when they blip out.  If it says 
"1:08" in the little blip-out symbol, you turn to the page that takes 
place at 1:08 -- where everyone else in the story other than those two is 
experiencing things in linear time.  At one point, Doom tries to zap 
Reed, and Reed shunts the blast off to 12:33, while staying put himself.

12:33, is, of course, what the clock on the cover read.  The cover, it 
turned out, was a panel of the story, which occurred at the beginning of 
the linear chronology of that story, but toward the end of the string of 
events of which the story was comprised.  The cover, it turned out, was 
simultaneously the beginning of the story (revealing how Reed escaped 
>from the deathtrap to begin with -- he blew it up with a blast from the 
future! Time loop!) and the climax of it... and at the time I was looking 
at the cover, I HAD NO IDEA.  I'd thought it was just a cover: 
nondiegetic, no more part of the story than a book jacket is part of a 
novel.  It blew my mind.

To have discovered that my previous understanding was wrong, that the 
authors had deliberately steered me into a misconception about the 
significance of the cover, was WONDERFUL.  The idea of feeling "cheated" 
or "misled" by something like this could not possibly be more alien to 
me.  And so here's unconscious parallel #2: the "epigraph" of Photopia is 
meant to have the same kind of effect on the player.  You *think* you 
know what epigraphs are: just little quotes to set a mood, but lying 
outside the story.  Only at the end of Photopia are you supposed to 
realize, wait, that box was *part* of the story -- it fits in right 
before the red planet part!  *Placing* it before the red planet part 
would destroy that moment of realization, and thus be a major mistake.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Tue Nov 24 12:46:04 MET 1998
Article: 50966 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!tfl450.tfl.hk-r.se!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsgate.duke.edu!godzilla5.acpub.duke.edu!adamc
From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: That wonderful click (was Mary's COMP98 reviews)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 19:53:11 -0500
Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA
Lines: 108
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References: <735kml$193e$1@nntp3.u.washington.edu> <19981121032544.26665.00000367@ngol03.aol.com> <dXE52.6539$c8.4066901@hme2.newscontent-01.sprint.ca>
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:50966

I've been closely following, but for the most part not responding to, the 
Photopia discussion threads, for fear of having a chilling effect on the 
conversation.  But this particular branch has wandered far enough into 
the realm of storytelling technique that I feel okay about jumping in -- 
and keeping it in the arts group, rather than shunting it over to rgif.

Photopia spoilers follow.

Marnie Parker wrote:
> The story telling scenes didn't work for me exactly because I didn't 
> know they were story telling scenes. I didn't like the confusion 
> between the two girls (which I suspect was deliberate to keep the 
> player guessing).

Yes, it's deliberate.  (As a friend of ours is wont to say.)

> I have thought about it since, I would have prefered to KNOW I was 
> partaking in a bedtime story and I don't think Photopia would have lost 
> a thing by it.

I strongly disagree.  But let me put more pots on the table before saying 
why.

> >Wendy got down from the ship...
> >
> >Then what did I do?
> >
> >Then Wendy...

Joe Mason replied: 
> Sorry, I hate this idea.  I thought the voice worked perfectly the way 
> it was.  All that's needed is to *know* that this is a story being told 
> before going in.
>
> To do that, I'd just move the epigraph.  Begin with the "Speeding Down
> Montgomery Boulevard" scene, then pop up the "RED" box, then the "Will you
> read me a story?" box, then start the scene.
> 
> That'll give more of a clue.  I think it definitely works better knowing those
> scenes are a story being told going in then it would if you didn't know what
> was going on.

I disagree with this too.

For me, one of the greatest pleasures of narrative is the sense of things 
clicking -- for a whole bunch of stuff that I didn't really understand to
suddenly make sense.  For that to happen, though, the author has hand me 
a bunch of things that I'm not supposed to have any kind of clue about 
yet.  And as long as I know that it's deliberate, I *love* that.  I stash 
the bits I don't get into my mental trophy case, knowing that they're 
going to turn into treasure once the key to piecing it all together is 
revealed.

When the RED title appears on screen and suddenly you're told that you're 
the first girl on the red planet, you're not supposed to have any idea 
what just happened.  I don't want the player to know that who's telling 
the story to whom, or even that it's a story at all.  The response I want 
you as a first-time player to have is "What the hell is this?"  I want 
you to be a little bewildered and nervous about the transition.  I also 
want you to trust that I know what I'm doing.

A related pleasure of narrative that I greatly enjoy is that of *thinking*
that I know the significance of something, and then discovering that it 
had an extra dimension of which I'd been unaware.  Watching young Charles 
Foster Kane playing with his sled has a whole new kick to it the second 
time you see the movie, for instance.  The examples are countless, but 
here's one that just popped into my head: Fantastic Four #352.  Most 
mainstream comics have covers that depict a representative scene from the 
story, and this seemed to be the case with FF #352: Reed Richards 
emerging from the aftermath of an explosion... with a little clock in the 
corner, but whatever.  So I start the story.  Fairly standard superhero 
fare, but then midway through the story, the pages are split vertically 
between a color portion and a black-and-white portion.  (Hmm.  
Unconscious parallel #1.)  In the black-and-white portion, Reed Richards 
(who has somehow escaped from a deathtrap, though we're not told how) 
and Dr. Doom are blipping around the timestream: to follow their battle, 
you have to follow the clocks that appear when they blip out.  If it says 
"1:08" in the little blip-out symbol, you turn to the page that takes 
place at 1:08 -- where everyone else in the story other than those two is 
experiencing things in linear time.  At one point, Doom tries to zap 
Reed, and Reed shunts the blast off to 12:33, while staying put himself.

12:33, is, of course, what the clock on the cover read.  The cover, it 
turned out, was a panel of the story, which occurred at the beginning of 
the linear chronology of that story, but toward the end of the string of 
events of which the story was comprised.  The cover, it turned out, was 
simultaneously the beginning of the story (revealing how Reed escaped 
>from the deathtrap to begin with -- he blew it up with a blast from the 
future! Time loop!) and the climax of it... and at the time I was looking 
at the cover, I HAD NO IDEA.  I'd thought it was just a cover: 
nondiegetic, no more part of the story than a book jacket is part of a 
novel.  It blew my mind.

To have discovered that my previous understanding was wrong, that the 
authors had deliberately steered me into a misconception about the 
significance of the cover, was WONDERFUL.  The idea of feeling "cheated" 
or "misled" by something like this could not possibly be more alien to 
me.  And so here's unconscious parallel #2: the "epigraph" of Photopia is 
meant to have the same kind of effect on the player.  You *think* you 
know what epigraphs are: just little quotes to set a mood, but lying 
outside the story.  Only at the end of Photopia are you supposed to 
realize, wait, that box was *part* of the story -- it fits in right 
before the red planet part!  *Placing* it before the red planet part 
would destroy that moment of realization, and thus be a major mistake.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr


From timbuktu@wpi.edu Wed Nov 25 09:42:28 MET 1998
Article: 51151 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntpX.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.ultranet.com!bigboote.WPI.EDU!not-for-mail
From: George Caswell <timbuktu@adamant.res.wpi.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] Multi-parent objects (longish - source code)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:50:48 -0500
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 218
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:51151

On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, Kathleen Fischer wrote:

> > > I have a rather neat <blush> way of making
> > >
> > >   > GO TO KITCHEN
> > >
> > >      and
> > >
> > >   > MAID, GO TO KITCHEN
> > >
> > > work.
> > 
> > Sorry to wait so long to reply to this.  I was trying to figure out
> > why you'd want to recurse up the object tree from an
> > object to its parent to do this.  I failed.  I cannot see the
> > connection.
> >

> I wanted to be able to say
> 
>    > MAID, GO TO ENTRY
> 
> and have her move, one room per turn, to her destination -
> WITHOUT elaborate search routines or hard coding the path
> from here to there.  (Note, the code works just as easily
> for the PC issuing a "> GO TO ENTRY" command)
> 
   Basically, you are hard-coding the paths, just not to the extent of doing
the n! combinations...

> I came up with two ways to do this.  The first was constants
> and recursion (the first and faster way). The second uses a
> heirarchy of objects. I'll describe the second way as I think
> it's easier to understand/describe - and its the one I want
> to speed up!
> 
   I'd like to hear more about the first approach, since you've only mentioned
a tiny detail of what it is...

   Basically, from what I can understand, the way you're doing this is as
follows-

1:  plan out the map for the game.
2:  For any section that can be automatically navigated, sub-divide into
trivial pieces into a hierarchical system.  (IE divide the house into its
floors, floors into rooms, etc..)
3:  For any room in a navigable section, provide a navigate method which, when
called with a target room, provides the best available exit for reaching that
target.  For rooms with one exit, this function will be trivial.  For rooms
with multiple exits, the correct exit is provided by the programmer for
compile time-  for each section that is close enough to the current one to be
worthy of evaluation, provide directions of travel which will place the NPC/PC
closer to the goal.  (By definition, this is a form of recursion)
4:  To navigate from any given point to the target, ask the room which way to
go via the navigate() method.  Go where you're told, and ask the next room
where to go.

   There are some good points and bad points to this approach.

good-
  It works.  (At least, I think it does.  Anyway, this isn't one to
underrate.)
  No substantial runtime overhead.  Since you don't do a lot of recursive
searching through the map at runtime, you don't risk a stack overflow crash.

bad-
  Potential consistency errors.  It's possible the programmer could make a
mistake, and create navigations of looping paths.  Alternately, if the
navigable path to a location wasn't defined- for example, you've defined your
house, how to get around in the house, and how to go outside to the street,
but not how to get into the house next door;  If you're then inside the first
house, and try to navigate to the house next door, you'll go outside, -then-
realize you don't know how to get there.  Keeping the section tree consistent
with the map could prove to be a challenge, and finding errors in it is likely
to be harder.

misc-
  In your example, you hard-code a lot of the base cases-  entry to closet,
for example.  To keep things simpler it might make sense to have
RoomClass's navigate() provide a default behavior, something like "if the
target is in the same section as me, check all exits from this room to see if
they go to the target"- then call that default behavior from all the navigable
rooms before evaluating the other rules.
  There's redundancy in how you move between sections.  Your procedure assumes
one single best way to move from section A to section B, yes?  In that case,
it may make sense to have a navigate() procedure for each -section- as well-
For example, to go from the 2nd floor bedroom to the 3rd floor studio, you
need to take the stairs, yes?  So in the section for the 2nd floor you would
want to define a rule like the following - "The best path from anywhere in
this section to anywhere not on this floor is by going to the stairwell at the
end of the hall" - (if (! insection(A, target) return navigate(stairwell)) )
This could potentially clarify the code a lot in an actual implementation, and
eliminate errors from mistakes in your recursive cases.  It could also be a
valuable strategy for finding intermediate destinations, and intermediate
destinations for intermediate destinations, etc..
   I'm a bit curious how you plan to handle exits which are routines--
they appear sometimes as special cases, rotating rooms and the like.  The
Thief example simply doesn't navigate through them at all.

   Another approach you might consider--  Make your sections larger--  the
whole house might be one section, for example:  hard-code the navigation for
going between sections as described above (intermediate goals) - for
navigation -within- the section, do a regular search.  Once you've established
a path to an intermediate waypoint, hold on to it until it's completed, since
searching is expensive.

> I create an object for each room that allows me to catch
> the name "entry" and know that belongs to the entry room
> -- so now I know I need to get the PC/NPC to the entry --
> but how?  I created a heirarchy of objects that break the map up
> into logical pieces.  For example: 
> 
>    Class RoomSectionClass
>      has open transparent container;
> 
>     RoomSection rs_map;  ! the root
>     RoomSection -> rs_insideHouse;
>     RoomSection ->-> rs_upstairsHouse;
>     RoomSection ->-> rs_downstairsHouse;
>     RoomSection ->->-> rs_dsMainHouse;
>     RoomSection ->->-> rs_dsServantsHouse;
>     RoomSection -> rs_outsideHouse;
> 
> -- etc.  Now, a few classes:
> 
>   Class FakeRoomClass
>     with toRoom 0;
> 
>   Class RoomClass
>     with
>        roomSection rs_map,
>        isRoomSection [ compTo x;
// Used to determine if this toom is in section compTo
>          x = self.roomSection;
>          while (x ~= 0 && x ~= compTo) x = parent(x);
>          return (x == compTo);
>          ],
>        navigate [ toLoc;
>          if (toLoc == toLoc) return 0;
>          ];
> 
> -- still there?  Ok.. next step, we need to make a map with some rooms.
> Let's say we have a room that is the entry for the house (the room
> with the front door).  From here you can go north to most of the
> house and upstairs, east to get to the servants quarters, and south
> leads to the front door (to the outside) - oh, and there is a walk in
> closet.  <note: as this is suppose to be an example, it is more
> elaborate
> that most rooms will be>
> 
>    FakeRoomClass fakeEntry "Entry"   ! This is so we can parse
>      with name "entry",              ! the user input
>           toRoom EntryRoom;          !  > GO TO ENTRY
> 
>    RoomClass EntryRoom
>      with roomSection rs_dsMainHouse,
>      s_to frontDoor,   ! a normal door
>      n_to Corridor1,   ! leads to most of house (including upstairs)
>      e_to Corridor2,   ! leads to the servants portion of the house
>      w_to Closet,      ! a place for coats
>      navigate [ toLoc;
>        if (toLoc == Closet) return (w_to);

//As I said above, this call would best be replaced with a call to
roomclass->navigate() - especially if you have a lot of immediately
neighboring target locations.  The reasonable default definition for
roomclass->navigate that I suggest is to loop through all exitable directions
to see if any of them matches the target room

>        if (toLoc.isRoomSection (rs_outsideHouse)) return (s_to);
>        if (toLoc.isRoomSection (rs_dsServantsHouse)) return (e_to);
>        return (n_to);  ! every OTHER room must be reachable by going
> north
>        ];
> 
> -- Hang in there, I'm almost done.  The last thing is to provide a verb.
> (fakeRoomBag holds all instances of FakeRoomClass)
> 
(inform verb crap deleted...)

> -- For the recursive method, if you replace the roomSection objects
> with constants, you can change isRoomSection to be a recursive routine:
> 
>        isRoomSection [ compTo x;
>          if (compTo == self.roomSection) rtrue;
>          if (compTo == rs_insideHouse)
>            return (self.isRoomSection (rs_upstairsHouse) ||
>                    self.isRoomSection (rs_downstairsHouse));
>          if (compTo == rs_downstairsHouse)
>            return (self.isRoomSection (rs_dsMainHouse) ||
>                   self.isRoomSection (rs_dsServantsHouse));
>          rfalse;
>          ],
> 
   Ummmm, bleah??  Why??

   I think the basic approach is good, given the limitations of Z.  'course,
there are plenty of interesting ways to handle this problem given the right
information...  Given the data that you're defining along with your regular
inform map data I'd say your approach most closely resembles the problem
reduction method-  at each step you redefine your path as the path to one of
the current room's neighbors followed by the path from there to the target.
(This, like I said, is a form of recursion)  I think defining your rules at a
higher level, dividing the path at each stage a bit more evenly might cost you
a tiny bit in speed, but will probably help sidestep all kinds of problems
later on.

   Most other methods I know of for solving this problem wouldn't be suitable
for a Z-machine environment...  simple searches are brute-force approaches,
not useful unless you can simplify the problem first--  for example, by
partitioning the map as you've done.  Heuristic searches wouldn't work without
extra data to fuel the heuristic--  location or distance, etc..  means-ends
won't work unless you can define the heuristics and the means..  and for
adventure games there usually aren't too many means.

---GEC
"If you go to Z'Ha'Dum, you will die."



From vanevery@earthlink.net Wed Nov 25 13:20:36 MET 1998
Article: 51209 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "Brandon Van Every" <vanevery@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tapestry vs. Photopia
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:31:03 -0800
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[WARNING.  Photopia giveaways ensue.  Stop the car now....]

LucFrench wrote in message <19981122020940.28377.00001123@ng74.aol.com>...
>
>Photopia is just a lesser shadow of Tapestry.

Nah.  More on that momentarily.

The guy who recommended Photopia to me as the "puzzleless adventure" was
correct.  It works, yippie!  Finally, IF that can be played by a complete
moron who doesn't want to solve any puzzles, who instead wants to
monkey-bang the keyboard until the end of the story happens.  For someone in
such a state of flow, it was a tremendouly effective use of the medium.  The
pauses, the dialogue paths, the auto-script of someone else's actions.

At first I resisted Photopia.  I didn't understand why I had been dumped on
the planet all of a sudden, it made no sense.  Only after I completed the
planetary sequence, and was introduced to a number of perspectives, did the
dream-like, deathlike quality of the game start to have its impact.  And in
my one slight act of replay, I went back to see if there was anything I
could have done.  Nope, car, forget it.  The planet, I discovered that it
didn't even MATTER what direction you were heading.  You'd get the same
sequence of rooms, they'd configure dynamically.  Brilliant.  All my
impatience about being forced into yet-another-empty-explore-everything
opening was just an illusion.  The same effect was well-played in the Maze
as well.  A puzzle that wasn't a puzzle at all.

I didn't get that far into Tapestry before quitting, only the first few
scenes.  It was just too overwrought and melodramatic.  Heavy-handed.

Photopia doesn't advertize that it's a downer.  You find that out later, and
by the time you do, you're hooked.  You're compelled to try to save Alley.
And by the end, you know that you can't, and it shakes you up.  The only
answer is to try the game again and find out if you could have done
something about the drunk driver.  Nope, nothing.  I found a desperate
desire to talk to Ally as much as possible during the game, to try to get as
much out of her as I could... before she died.  That's the tragedy of real
life.  Someone dies, and there are so many things you could have said.

Also, at first the parenthetical word explanations are annoying.  You think,
"what's this kitschy author-talk mumbo-jumbo?  Ever heard of the 4th wall?
Jeez."  But as the story unfolds, it takes on a much more sinister mantra.
You realize it's all part of a bedtime story, because the word explanations
are for such simple things.  And that adds to the tragedy.  To the
suffocation of Death.

>T uses the interactivity of the medium to its great advantage. The three
>endings, particularly the Morningstar ending, felt much more dangerous,
because
>the player _had_ performed the actions that led to the fate of the PC.


Nah.  If I can't even make it past the 1st scene, it's not using the medium
to great advantage.  Photopia was far more clever in this regard.  Still
more clever was Spider And Web, but that's another thread....

>P doesn't use the medium quite as well. While I was playing it, I felt the
>fourth wall grinding against me, primarily because the actions were so
heavily
>scripted. (Although the Gold scene's explanation was actually fairly nice.)


I just went right along with it.  I didn't want to be bothered with
thinking.  I was going to throw a tantrum if I actually had to do something
clever with the seed pod.  I'm so relieved that I never had to do anything
clever the entire game!  It delivered its message with punch and pace.  It
proves that pacing *IS* possible in Interactive Fiction, all you need is
that pause between scenes.  Or between the lines.

>Ultimately, P is a work of art *that isn't Interactive Fiction*.  I don't
know
>what it is, but it is not in the Infocom tradition (excluding the small
matter
>of puzzles).

Nonsense.  It's IF of the Choose-Your-Own-Adventure form.  And it's
excellent at what it does.  If you want a STORY, and you want that story
delivered wham bam thank you ma'am one blow after the next, it does its job
perfectly.  Nothing like Hope in the face of an insoluable tragedy to pull a
reader along!

I give Photopia a 9.5 on the 10 point scale.  It would be a perfect "10"
with ONE change: I am not so stupid that I needed to be told that the Queen
had seen it from the other way around.  That phrase sends the 4th wall
tumbling down.  Why take time out to tell the reader that he's a complete
and utter moron?  I mean JEEZ we figured it out when we knew she was toast,
she had been having ominous dreams, and she met herself much older as the
Queen of Death.  Meeting the Queen as an affirmation is downright creepy.
Having the Queen explain it all away turns it into a bit of farce, a sort of
comic relief for the twisted of mind such as myself.  >-E

If it's supposed to be about the Queen of Death "ripping her mask off," well
the setup has to be much better.  You can't just give all these big
humongous dinosaur-sized footprint hints, you have to be subtle and invoke
realization as a matter of astonishment.  Personally, I think it's just as
easy to cut that one phrase.  In that case, the goal isn't ripping off the
mask, its reinforcing the complete morbidity of what we already know.  Its
inevitability.

The Photopia ending is FAR more satisfying.  I'm really glad the story
didn't end with the Queen.


Cheers,                    3d graphics optimization jock
Brandon Van Every          Seattle, WA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we are all Gods         and we have thrown our toys the mortals away
and we are Immortal        What shall we do
and we cannot die          to entertain ourselves?





From tragedy.nin@usa.net Thu Nov 26 11:43:18 MET 1998
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From: ".tragedy." <tragedy.nin@usa.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: My eye view of Photopia
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 01:06:25 -0800
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Hello,

I am not a tremendous IF fan like many of you seem to be.  I've played
around 25 or so games (including Infocom), and rather liked some of
them, and quite hated others.  I've never read this newsgroup until this
evening, but I played Photopia the other day, and felt compelled to
speak my piece on it.

There may very well be spoilers contained below (in fact, I'm fairly
sure there will be), but I can't say anything with certainty because it
hasn't been written yet.  Be advised, though: if you haven't played this
game, don't ruin it for yourself.

I'm not exactly the authority on IF, as I mentioned above.  I couldn't
for the life of me tell you what the fourth wall is (I just saw it
mentioned in a couple posts).  So this little commentary will be a bit
more from the perspective of a casual player than most posts here seem
to be.

Where to start...

I think that this is a magnificent piece of work.  Playing through it,
one gets the impression that it was crafted, rather than simply
written.  Almost everything about it is polished and flawless, and the
few slips in quality that do exist are easily forgivable.  In spite of
what some people have mentioned here, I believe that this game makes
excellent use of the medium, although it is far from your standard IF
game.

This game would not be as powerful or effective in almost any other
format; I saw film in particular mentioned, but without the interactive
elements the impact would be weakened.  While movies do indeed have the
ability to draw the viewers into the story, the sense of panic and
helplessness that I got while playing the game could not be portrayed
well enough.  Without the sense that you do, in fact, control what
happens throughout much of the story, the feeling of that control being
wrenched away from you would be impossible to reproduce.

The little touches added to the story were excellent; the impact
wouldn't have been as strong without the boy asking Alley to the dance,
or the vending machine line in the hospital, or the word definitions at
the beginning of the story (I didn't understand that one until a couple
days after playing; it's remarkable that I was even thinking about the
game a couple days after playing).

I must mention the crystal maze puzzle; truly excellent.  A
mind-expanding moment.  There aren't many of those, anywhere in modern
"art".

The only flaw of any real measure I noticed was the Queen's  "I remember
this conversation" line, but that has been thoroughly discussed, and I
don't think I really have anythinbg to add to that arguement.  I do,
though, think that a flaw this small in a work this excellent is very
forgivable.

This is easily the best IF game I've played, and ranks very high in the
best games (in general) I've played and the best stories I've read.  I
had been considering writing an IF game myself for a while, but now I'm
not so sure...I don't believe anything I could write could live up to
this.

Hmm...there's more to say, but I'll have to come back later.

Regards,
.tragedy.

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not
bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
 -- Samuel Clemens


From erkyrath@netcom.com Fri Nov 27 10:16:23 MET 1998
Article: 51293 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: A Fable: MegaZeux.
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David Given (dg@) wrote:
> Perhaps Inform has reached a point where it's *not* appropriate to enhance
> it further. It does its job, and extremely well (likewise, ZZT games are
> still great fun, and extremely hard --- they'd appeal to the IF mindset,
> actually, I'd recommend getting a copy of _Caverns Of_). But if we want
> new features, perhaps we should start again from scratch and design a new
> system. One that doesn't have a 64kB RAM limit, for example. The Z-machine
> has already been extended in a variety of unpleasant ways to compensate
> for original flaws.

Actually, one useful feature of a compiler is that the front end is
different from the back end.

It would be fairly easy -- as a design problem, I mean, still a lot of
work -- to make Inform compile the Inform language for a new VM. The
compiler is well-designed. It's easily separable. 

(I tried to do this myself, just as an exercise. I got a substantial
amount of work done in one night. It's not a one-night problem, but it's
*much* less work than writing an IF system from scratch!)

I know Graham is not averse to this kind of advance. Once, long ago, that
was the direction he foresaw taking Inform. (And that's *all* I know,
honest. This was a comment he made well over a year ago.)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Fri Nov 27 10:21:02 MET 1998
Article: 51312 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Melodrama
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:23:07 -0500
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Preface: this was originally an e-mail I sent to someone who asked me to
comment about melodrama in Photopia.  After sending it, I thought that,
slightly altered, it might make an interesting post to the group, if only
because it's about the rhetoric of narrative and yet does not mention
Aristotle.

Photopia spoilers follow.

  -----
The word "melodrama" comes from "melos" plus "drama", "melos" meaning 
music.  To me, that means that you know you're dealing with  melodrama 
when you can hear the swell of the score in the background.  In films, 
this is literally true; but it can be just as true in text, since language
itself has an intrinsic musicality to it.  Melodramatic texts are marked 
by language in which you're almost deafened by the violins, even as 
you're reading silently: "Carrie! Oh, Carrie! Ever pure in that that 
are hopeful!"

There are a few ways to avoid melodrama if the mental violins are not 
the effect you're trying to achieve.  One is to avoid those cadences 
entirely, by making your language matter-of-fact and colloquial (or, if 
you're someone like David Mamet, creating your own artificial cadence.)  
For instance, compare and contrast the following:

(1) When at long last I arrived at my home, I found a letter on the
    table in the hall.

    I opened it.

    It was then that I knew that my life would never be the same.

(2) When I got home, I found a letter on the table in the hall.  I
    opened it.  And that's when I knew my life would never be the
    same.
  
By getting rid of the attention-grabbing (s)pacing and replacing some of
the high-falutin' language with something more down to earth, you can tone
down the more overblown aspects of the first passage without diluting its
impact.

You can also preserve some melodramatic language, but shunt away the 
melodrama that ensues by undercutting it.  Sometimes this can be done 
with a joke; in Photopia, when Alley's dad tells her that she's "more 
valuable than all the stars in the sky", a heavily melodramatic line, her 
mom shows up and starts mocking him for it.  It can also be done by 
following the melodramatic with the mundane; hence, "at least she didn't 
suffer" is followed by the line about the vending machine.  (In my novel, 
the protagonist is asked by a dying girl to get her a last sip of water; 
the melodrama is then undercut by the protagonist's struggle to get the 
water fountain to work.)

Furthermore, intrinsically melodramatic incidents can be saved from 
melodrama by throwing them away, in a sense.  The bus accident in THE 
SWEET HEREAFTER, for instance, is not filmed with a close-up of the bus 
careening off the hill, followed by reaction shots of the screaming 
children inside; the whole thing happens in the background of a shot in 
the middle of the film.  No time in Photopia is spent lingering over the 
moment of Alley's death; it's referred to indirectly, buried amid a slew 
of other details like the smell of the burning rubber and the color of 
the traffic light.  Virginia Woolf probably takes the award for this 
sort of thing: in TO THE LIGHTHOUSE, she casually informs the reader 
that the main character of the first half of the book has died, not just 
in passing in the middle of a brief "several years went by" passage, but 
in a *parenthetical statement* in that passage!

I can think of one place where Photopia is overtly melodramatic: in the 
"And the world grows cold..." line.  And now that I think about it, I 
think I'm going to alter it for version 1.2.  (Which, judging from the
bug reports for 1.1, will be sorely needed.  Sigh...)

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Fri Nov 27 10:21:10 MET 1998
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Melodrama correction
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:30:27 -0500
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"Ever pure in that that are hopeful" should be "Ever pure in that thou 
art hopeful", of course.  This is what happens when you let your fingers 
compose text instead of your brain.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr


From tragedy.nin@usa.net Fri Nov 27 10:24:12 MET 1998
Article: 51281 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: ".tragedy." <tragedy.nin@usa.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: About Photopia
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Hello,

I am not a tremendous IF fan like many of you seem to be.  I've played
around 25 or so games (including Infocom), and rather liked some of
them, and quite hated others.  I've never read this newsgroup until this
evening, but I played Photopia the other day, and felt compelled to
speak my piece on it.

There may very well be spoilers contained below (in fact, I'm fairly
sure there will be), but I can't say anything with certainty because it
hasn't been written yet.  Be advised, though: if you haven't played this
game, don't ruin it for yourself.

I'm not exactly the authority on IF, as I mentioned above.  I couldn't
for the life of me tell you what the fourth wall is (I just saw it
mentioned in a couple posts).  So this little commentary will be a bit
more from the perspective of a casual player than most posts here seem
to be.

Where to start...

I think that this is a magnificent piece of work.  Playing through it,
one gets the impression that it was crafted, rather than simply
written.  Almost everything about it is polished and flawless, and the
few slips in quality that do exist are easily forgivable.  In spite of
what some people have mentioned here, I believe that this game makes
excellent use of the medium, although it is far from your standard IF
game.

This game would not be as powerful or effective in almost any other
format; I saw film in particular mentioned, but without the interactive
elements the impact would be weakened.  While movies do indeed have the
ability to draw the viewers into the story, the sense of panic and
helplessness that I got while playing the game could not be portrayed
well enough.  Without the sense that you do, in fact, control what
happens throughout much of the story, the feeling of that control being
wrenched away from you would be impossible to reproduce.

The little touches added to the story were excellent; the impact
wouldn't have been as strong without the boy asking Alley to the dance,
or the vending machine line in the hospital, or the word definitions at
the beginning of the story (I didn't understand that one until a couple
days after playing; it's remarkable that I was even thinking about the
game a couple days after playing).

I must mention the crystal maze puzzle; truly excellent.  A
mind-expanding moment.  There aren't many of those, anywhere in modern
"art".

The only flaw of any real measure I noticed was the Queen's  "I remember
this conversation" line, but that has been thoroughly discussed, and I
don't think I really have anythinbg to add to that arguement.  I do,
though, think that a flaw this small in a work this excellent is very
forgivable.

This is easily the best IF game I've played, and ranks very high in the
best games (in general) I've played and the best stories I've read.  I
had been considering writing an IF game myself for a while, but now I'm
not so sure...I don't believe anything I could write could live up to
this.

Hmm...there's more to say, but I'll have to come back later.

Regards,
.tragedy.

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not
bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
 -- Samuel Clemens


From comus@argonet.co.uk Sat Nov 28 14:48:12 MET 1998
Article: 51374 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Joyce Haslam <comus@argonet.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Nearly dark rooms
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 12:46:34 +0000 (GMT)
Organization: Colne Lancashire England
Lines: 113
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:51374

I've been sitting selfishly on this letter from Graham Nelson
for a year:

> I need a class of rooms that are dimly lit so that "take all" does
> not work. I can suppress "you can see" and "exits are", but I don't
> know how to get at the parser. I don't mind the player being able
> to "take all" in brightly lit rooms, and "the dark" is fine, but in
> the class of rooms with the attribute "has dimness" I want
> something like 
> "take book"
> "OK"
> "take all"
> "What, even the snakes and spiders?"

Here's a little game which has just the code you need.  I've
put a few comments in, but for further explanation, see section
29 of the Designer's Manual.  Note that there are two things to
do -- (1) to make sure that "take all" takes nothing in dim
rooms, and (2) to print a good error message when this rule has
been applied.

You should be able to compile this as is: then try "take all"
in both rooms.  ("Drop all", and other uses of "all", should be
unaffected.)

    Graham Nelson

---------------

Constant DEBUG;
  
Constant Story "Faintly Lit";
Constant Headline "^An Interactive Answer^";

Include "Parser";
Include "VerbLib";

Class FLRoom
  has  light;

Object Bright_Room "Bright Room"
  with e_to Faintly_Lit_Room,
       description
          "The Bright Room. A corridor runs east.",
  has  light;

Object -> green_ball "green ball"
  with name "green" "ball";

Object -> red_disc "red disc"
  with name "red" "disc";

FLRoom Faintly_Lit_Room "Faintly-Lit Room"
  with w_to Bright_Room,
       description
          "The Faintly-Lit Room. A corridor runs west.";

Object -> marble "marble"
  with name "marble";

Object -> feather "feather"
  with name "feather";

Object -> basket "basket"
  with name "basket";

[ Initialise;
  location = Bright_Room;

 "^^^^^Welcome to the...^";
];

[ ChooseObjects obj code;
  if (code == 1)
  {   ! That is: if the parser wants to include this object in
      ! an "all"
     
      if (action_to_be == ##Take or ##Remove
          && location ofclass FLRoom)
      {   ! Force the object to be excluded.  The net result is that
          ! the parser will be unable to have anything in a "take all"
          ! occurring in a faintly-lit room.

          return 2;
      }
  }
  return 0;  ! Carry on, applying normal parser rules
];

[ ParserError error_code;
  if (error_code == NOTHING_PE)
  {   ! The error message printed if an "all" turned out empty

      if (action_to_be == ##Take or ##Remove
          && location ofclass FLRoom)

         "In this faint light, it's not so easy.";
  }

  return 0;  ! Print standard parser error message
];

Include "Grammar";


--
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom

-- 
Joyce Haslam
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/dljhaslam/ for Gateway to Karos [INFORM]
Powerbase is for RiscOs only
c o m u s @ a r g o n e t . c o . u k


From Schep@mail.server.net Mon Nov 30 16:46:14 MET 1998
Article: 51575 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Schep <Schep@mail.server.net>
Newsgroups: comp.games.development.design,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Using the player's desire (was Tragedy)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:08:02 -0500
Organization: Michigan State University
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Xref: news.lth.se comp.games.development.design:1717 rec.arts.int-fiction:51575

Brandon Van Every wrote:
> 
> Dave G wrote in message <366014E9.17E@bigfoot.com>...
> >(spoilers for Photopia)
Yes, there certainly are.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >I can certainly understand the (perfectly reasonable) opposing
> viewpoint
> >-- the fact that this is interactive fiction could easily fool
> someone
> >into thinking they could have done something to change the ending.
> But
> >approaching the game in that way is not necessary to enjoying it --
> as
> >proof, my personal experience.  I believe rgif discussions have shown
> >several people to have experienced (and loved) the game "my way", and
> >several "your way".  Obviously both are entirely valid.
> 
> What, then, drove your desire to complete the story?
 
I also experienced Photopia the first time through without ever thinking
I might stop Alley's death. At first, my motivation was simply piecing
together the story. Once I realized what was going on, I focussed on the
opportunities to interact with Alley, to make the story count for the
characters I was placed in.

So in retrospect, the scene under the stars featuring an intellectual
discussion was definitely representative of what the story was about for
me. The scene featuring the nervous junior-high kid really made the
tragedy emotionally painful from this one point of view. (modern shallow
use of the word 'tragedy'; if you like, substitute 'irony' and pretend
you misuse vocab exactly like a certain singer.)

The nice part is that to a certain extent, you _do_ change the story,
because the story is about the characters' relations to Alley from this
view of the game. If you send Alley to bed on time like a good dad, you
realize the regret which the character you shaped is sure to feel about
never spending quality time together, since the chosen responses feel
like a sample of the character's pattern, and you pick what a typical
night at Alley's home is like. In this same scene, I read the choices
and at first assumed Alley would be more interested in mythology stories
than scientific stuff like the inverse-square law, then felt ashamed at
my self for this stereotyping (that can fit in the father's relation or
the player's experience).

I think it's obvious that whatever poor Jon does, he's going to be
crushed and tormented when he hears the news. (But I'm probably wrong,
'obvious' is dangerous.)

I've picked my two favorite scenes for illustration, but I learned every
scene in the game (even the first!) can be effective in this view of the
game: see the "[Photopia] Who did you identify with?" thread on
rec.games.int-fiction for related discussion.

Hope my explanation is clear. Your Motivations May Vary.

-- 
Schep -----------------------------------------------------
Reply by email should be schepler at pilot dot msu dot edu.
The other automatic one is an anti-spam device.
Nothing against the meat. (yes, spam contains meat)


From c.palu@student.qut.edu.au Mon Nov 30 16:49:18 MET 1998
Article: 51518 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: chris <c.palu@student.qut.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.games.development.design,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tragedy and the adventure game
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:44:57 +1100
Organization: University of Queensland
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Scott A. Munro wrote:

> The PC's wife and daughter, to whom he was devoted, was destoyed by
> the villain/monster (the wife is dead, and she's the lucky one, heh
> heh heh). For twelve years he has lived for nothing but revenge,
> tracing the villain's movements across continents, sleeping in
> gutters, drinking rainwater, eating scraps from trash cans when he
> couldn't afford a meal.

The question is:  does the player go through this agonising and
character building stage?  If not, do you just expect the player to act
like how YOU would expect the character to act given this senario?

> Pretty obsessive, wouldn't you say? That's my contribution. The rest
> of him is yours, and since I think most people are fairly decent, the
> PC will also be fairly decent.

... but will the PC continue with his obsession once the player takes
over?

> The choices are about the conflict between his decency and his
> obsession.

It seems more like:  what does the player want to do conflicting with
what the character would do.

I think less importance needs to be placed on writing senarios where the
player must make an obvious "choice" and more effort on subtle
accommadation of the player's attempts to wield the character within the
framework of the narrative.

chris.


From vanevery@earthlink.net Mon Nov 30 16:49:45 MET 1998
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From: "Brandon Van Every" <vanevery@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.games.development.design,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tragedy and the adventure game
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:04:02 -0800
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Xref: news.lth.se comp.games.development.design:1702 rec.arts.int-fiction:51532


Scott A. Munro wrote in message <3660f5a8.51866209@news.nextdim.com>...
>
>The choices are about the conflict between his decency and his
>obsession.
>
>Take the old man and the little girl.
>
>If he saves the little girl, the story is over. The PC has made his
>choice, and sacrificed his revenge to save her life. This is a
>perfectly legitmate ending to the story. It's not simply  "*** YOU ARE
>DEAD ***". So if that's what you want to do, then _do it_. You can
>always go back and make another choice (save often, of course) and
>have a different story. It's not a matter of "closing off the game,"
>it's a matter of bringing the story to a satisfying end. Indeed, one
>of several satisfying ends.


I am assuming from context that the old man is instrumental to hunting down
the villain.  You save the old man not so much because of your altruism, but
because you need him?

If this is correct then how is saving the little girl a satisfying ending?
Unless you built a separate storyline of remorse for the obsession, and his
abandonment of the obsession made sense as an ending.  If he simply abandons
the obsession while still being obsessed, that's an arbitrary device.  It
does smack of authorial manipluation, herding the player towards the
"correct" goal.

So really, you need to tell 2 stories to have the choice be satisfying in
either direction.

>Or in old-man-and-little-girl terms:
>
>If you save the little girl, the prose will point out that the little
>girl is alive, and rather pleased about it. It will also point out
>that you have left your family unavenged.


This is not a complete ending.  It is not a narrative Whole, you've left the
job unfinished.


Cheers,                    3d graphics optimization jock
Brandon Van Every          Seattle, WA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we are all Gods         and we have thrown our toys the mortals away
and we are Immortal        What shall we do
and we cannot die          to entertain ourselves?





From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Wed Dec  2 13:44:55 MET 1998
Article: 51471 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.games.development.design,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Using the player's desire (was Tragedy)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 20:17:11 -0500
Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA
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I wrote:
> >Some works are better suited to text than to visual media.  Why am I
> >suddenly picturing you cornering someone like JD Salinger and demanding,
> >"Hey, why'n'cha go to Hollywood, huh?  That's where the MONEY is, man!"

Brandon Van Every replied:
> No, more like why don't you make an (independent) movie?

You really think this is somehow better?

> You conveniently eliminated the context of the original poster, who claimed
> it was a glory to remain poor and little known in the name of IF.  Bollocks
> to that!  There is no necessity in it.  You just have to be willing to think
> in terms of a career and not a hobby.

I don't need another career.  I *like* having IF as a hobby.  Hobbies are 
fun.

I wrote:
> >My college roommate was the lead programmer on Grim Fandango.  You have
> >no idea what is entailed in the process you sweepingly refer to as
> >"mastering it and making money."

BVE replied:
> Give me a friggin' break.  What are *your* 3D graphics credentials?

I'm not trying to play Dueling Resumes with you.  The point is, I lived 
with Bret while he was in the process of "mastering" the skills that 
eventually led to the production of the game you mentioned.  I would not 
have traded lives with him for a second.  Now, perhaps I shouldn't have 
said that you "have no idea."  Perhaps you have a very good idea, and yet 
still think that the process is easy and/or worth my effort to learn.  
You would be wrong.

You might also argue that you've undergone the exact same process as Bret 
and that it wasn't as grueling as all that.  But then, if you'd undergone 
the *exact* same process, it'd be your name in the credits instead of his.

BVE wrote:
> > > This is why Photopia worked for most people.

I replied:
> >Please don't presume that you know why this is so.

BVE retorted:
> Let's play it your way.  I'm an egomaniac.  I have the golden answer for why
> your game worked, it's a real kick in the teeth, an abuse to all your
> authorial perogatives.  BECAUSE PEOPLE WANTED TO SAVE THE CHILD.  Now,
> refute it.  Prove me wrong.

Dave G didn't want to save the child.  QED.

Some people probably did want to save her, sure.  The point is, there is 
no single answer.  There are as many reasons why people liked Photopia as 
there are people who liked it.  People are different.  To find out why 
people liked it, don't speculate.  Ask them.  

Of course, making pronouncements based on one's own reflections on 
something without benefit of research was one of Aristotle's trademarks: 
famously, he declared that women had fewer teeth than men, without 
actually bothering to look in some women's mouths to count them.  Now, 
you may claim that you're equipped to declaim upon the subject of 
tragedy, having done your research by reading the Poetics.  But as you've 
proven over the course of the last week, a little knowledge is a 
dangerous thing.  Those who have read a whole bunch of different books 
on a subject eventually recognize that there are a number of different 
viewpoints on a topic; those who have read none are at least aware of 
their own ignorance.  But people who have read a grand total of one book, 
well, those are the ones to watch out for: all too often, they fall under 
the impression that (a) there is one Answer, and (b) having read the 
book, they know it.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Wed Dec  2 13:48:56 MET 1998
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.games.development.design,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Using the player's desire (was Tragedy)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:39:08 -0500
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Tom Plunket wrote:
> Brandon was right-on with this; if you want to make it in
> the mass market (not to assume that you do) then take your
> killer ideas and get some competent programmers and artists
> together to make it.

See, but collaborating with others is a very different thing than 
learning advanced graphical programming and developing prodigious 
artistic talent oneself, which is what "mastering" graphical IF would 
entail.

> Although it made me bust out laughing to see Brandon's
> (typical) response, where in "lead programmer" does one get
> the idea that this person is the least bit interested in
> writing a story?

The point is, if I wanted to create something like Grim Fandango, I would 
not only have to write the story for it, but I would have to *also* learn 
enough about programming to be able to code up the graphics.  Having seen 
the years of hard work that takes, I'm not interested.

Now, you can reply that I don't *need* to be able to program it myself, 
that I could just take the idea and hand it off to someone who can.  But 
then the prodect would no longer be something I created.  It'd be 
something that a bunch of people, including me, created.  And that's a 
different thing.  Part of what makes IF a fun hobby for me is that I can 
take a project from inception to completion without other people getting 
in the way.

Even if I were interested in collaborating, that would imply either (a) 
getting hired by some existing company which just so happens to share my 
vision and is willing to put its resources at my disposal, or (b) 
starting my own, which would entail finding brilliant people with 
different fields of expertise who share my vision and don't have other 
commitments, and also finding enough money to pay these people.  Either 
one of these would be a tall order.  Which is why I was so put off by 
BVE's blithe suggestion that we all just "master it and make money," as 
if that were something one could do over the weekend and we just hadn't 
thought of it.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr


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From: mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: comp.games.development.design,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tragedy and the adventure game
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Scott A. Munro <smunro@nextdim.com> wrote:

>The first piece I'm planning (for some unspecified time in the future,
>since I've just started learning Inform) will have no such concepts as
>"winning" and "losing." Either you get to the end, or you don't. Along
>the way, you don't so much solve puzzles as make choices, some of
>which are extremely unpleasant. Often, you will have to make the worse
>choice in order to advance the story. 

I think that last line is the sticking point, the thing you'll
need to have a brilliant solution to or your game will bomb for
many players.

If I find that I have to make the worse choice in order to advance
the story, generally speaking I feel nothing akin to tragedy:  I
feel bullied by the author.  The emotions engaged here aren't
character identification, but my desire as a player to make the
game progress.  My usual experience with "if you don't do what I
need you to do, the game stops progressing" moral choices is that
they destroy my identification with the character:  he's not making
a bad moral choice, I'm overriding him out of my player-selfish
desire to continue.

The COMP98 game which came closest to making this work for me
was "Persistance of Memory".  ("Photopia" dodges the question
by not really allowing a lot of decisions.)  

I know I'm in the minority here, but "The Plant" failed for me on
exactly these grounds:  I tried to care about the main character,
and then the requirement that he steal everything that's not 
nailed down really annoyed me.  I stopped playing the character
and started just playing the game--which was a fun game, but I'd
hoped for more.

I believe there are ways to make this work, but some real artistry
will be needed.

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu



From okblacke@usa.net Thu Dec  3 12:46:31 MET 1998
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From: okblacke@usa.net
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF as a career (was Tragedy)
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In article <742h9b$cab$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
  "Brandon Van Every" <vanevery@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> free to invent more options.  But there's no truth in the statement "if you
> wanted to get rich, you wouldn't be writing IF."  One makes one's choices.
>

[rambling mode on]

Context is such an interesting thing. When I read the above by the original
poster, I immediately assumed the r.a.i-f context of (basically) textual IF,
and in particular, the sort of IF that gets written here to please a fairly
elite* group of people who, while some will certainly _pay_ for it, will never
make any of their members rich, if for no other reason than being too small in
number and funds.  If someone wanted to get rich on the kind of I-F that goes
on here, one would need a patron. (Not as far-fetched as it might sound given
the ardent following some of the authors here have, but historically unlikely
enough to warrant "never" in the context above.)

To turn around and say that if someone did all this _other_ stuff then they
could get rich writing IF is completely non-contextual.  It's been long
enough that I can't remember the original poster's message but I believe this
was an off-handed reference to something "we all know"--an r.a.i-f axiom, if
you will. While one can argue (and I believe you have argued this to an
extent) that the axiom is false outside of this context, it is certainly
agreed upon here. And, I think it's fair to say that the axiom will hold
until someone demonstrates its falsity by writing IF _to get rich and
succeeding_.

The above ramblings are simply mentioned as out-loud thinking on the topic of
communication and context and how exactly the above conversation (with or
without its misunderstandings) would be carried on between a player and an NPC
in an IF game.  (Not an ObIF, this is _really_ what I was thinking.)

But it does brings up two _other_ points that are of interest:

If you wanted to get rich, you wouldn't be writing IF [as a means to reach
that goal]**. In your own last example (a high-paid consulting using the
money to support his IF magnum opus), the person isn't getting rich writing
IF--he's making money consulting and _maybe_ hoping the IF will make money
someday.

Lots of people do the same things with screenplays and novels. If they're
honest with themselves and well-informed, they're not writing them to get
rich. The statistics are grim, even in these fields, and there are much, much
better (easier, faster) and more reliable ways to "get rich", including
buying lottery tickets. Passion figures prominently here: One writes the
story/script/IF and does what one can to get it to the audience.

Well-established, very popular writers get rich just by writing.  Every
working writer I've known had to bust his ass to make a living (sometimes a
good one, sometimes not so good), and do a lot of non-writing activity. But
even an unknown writer can make a few phone calls, get an agent, and mail out
manuscripts and maybe get lucky (and be published, and _still_ have a better
shot of wealth buying lottery tickets.)

IF writers have no such system in place. There are no IF agents. CMP may be
the _only_ publisher of text IF and while there are companies like LucasArts
making IF for the public, this is a model more like a movie studio--and I'd
bet that actually far fewer graphical IF games are made than movies.

To go even broader, of those involved in _any_ of the arts, those who were
"doing it to get rich" make a very small percentage of those who actually did
get rich, because those to whom getting rich is a priority often fail in the
face of the enormous amount of work it takes to achieve a professional level
of skill in any art.

And to bring it back home, has there ever been _anyone_ who got rich writing
IF?  Even in the early days?  Scott Adams made a living.  So did the Infocom
guys.  The Williams' did a _lot_ more than write IF to achieve what they
did--just writing IF wouldn't have cut it.

Most recently, how about Tim Schaefer?	I'm sure they paid him well for "Grim
Fandango" but did he get rich off of "Full Throttle"? Probably not, though
with the way "Grim Fandango" is going, maybe he'll get rich off of that.  I'm
hoping that "Once and Future" is selling well, but unless Messr. Wilson is
getting rich from the sales, I'm thinking that it demonstrates the truth of
the original poster's statement. (And I would guess that most of the money he
makes from it will _not_ be from "writing IF" but from having a respected
presence in this community.*** I don't know if Messr. Berlyn is trying to
keep track of who is buying it, but I'd be surprised if r.*.i-f don't make up
a the majority of it. I'd like to be proven wrong on that.)

I'm all for trying, but I think IF is like most other writing arts, only
moreso because the paying audience for IF (and text IF in particular) is so
small.

100% truths are hard to find, but I'd say "if you wanted to get rich, you
wouldn't be writing IF" is more true than not, especially if you understand
that the poster is not being literal and saying "nobody writing IF is trying
to get rich in any way".

[rambling mode off (for now)]

[ok]

* "Small" is probably more accurate than "elite" but I reserve the right to
flatter potential readers.
** I, and probably others, inferred the content in the square brackets, and
also didn't take it as a universal pronouncement, an attempt to discourage, or
a complaint, but rather an historical observation. This is another thing that
makes the argument about all the ways it might not be true rather jarring:
Well, yes, anyone _might_ do anything, but one's sanity might be called into
question.
*** Not a knock on O&F or its author or publisher, but the same facts of life
that face most authors of books apply: Without massive advertising campaigns,
new product gets known by the presence of those involved in making it in the
consumer communities.

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From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Fri Dec  4 16:03:02 MET 1998
Article: 51841 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Photopia: Parallels, Stupid question, Random observations
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:43:08 -0500
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Phil Goetz wrote:
> SPOILERS.
> 
> Stupid question:
> 
> I just finished Photopia... I think.
> I played through the scene in which I am Alley's mother.
> Then it said "END OF SESSION".
> Am I the culprit of some Java bug, or is that the end of Photopia?

The last scene in Photopia takes place in the nursery.  Your last action 
should be to turn off the lights.

> If that's the end, it's a hopeless one.
> No other message than "She's dead, Jim."

Someone once asked Douglas Adams what the message of Hitchhiker's was.  
He replied, "No message.  If I'd wanted to write a message I'd have 
written a message.  I wrote a book."

That said -- ie, this is not a message game -- everyone'll take away 
their own thoughts from Photopia.  "She's dead, Jim" is one possibility.  
Here's another -- not The Message, just something for your consideration.

Alley *isn't* dead at the end of the story.  Indeed, the end of the story 
is where she has more of her life ahead of her than in any other scene.

Every single person you know has more of their life ahead of them right 
now than they will ever have again.

Appreciate that.

*shrug*

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr


From adam@princeton.edu Sun Dec  6 15:37:10 MET 1998
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From: adam@princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
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Subject: Re: Photopia: Parallels, Stupid question, Random observations
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In article <1djj9or.1sopcaf1hgx0gcN@usol-209-186-16-69.uscom.com>,
David Glasser <glasser@DELETEuscom.com> wrote:
>Photopia: Gettin' spoilly wit' it:
>
Getting Spoilier:

>Well, in the you-are-Wendy-in-bed scene, look at the bear.
>
>I don't know of any others, unless the ifMUD mindset has just permeated
>me to make me not notice it.

I read the whole Queen scene as an indictment of IF as it currently exists.

It seems that Alley and Adam are bemoaning the fact that IF worlds are
inherently dead and sterile.  We're fine with picking things up and
dropping them, but character interaction is way, way beyond the abilities
of current computing systems.  We can give NPCs scripts, but fundamentally
the computer cannot do anywhere near as well as even a mediocre human
storyteller when it comes to creating characters who interact with the
player. 

Doe tells me I'm overreading and being silly, because this has prompted a
bit of a crisis of faith on my part.

But it *has*.  Character-heavy IF is doomed, at least until we have real
AI, because the characters can't possibly be as well fleshed-out as even a
lousy storyteller can make them.

Sure, we get around this by having them be trolls, or interrogators, or
enigmatic but attractive ciphers.  But a bright 12-year-old storyteller can
become Floyd the endearing robot sidekick in a way that no computer can.

Adam
-- 
adam@princeton.edu 
"There's a border to somewhere waiting, and a tank full of time." - J. Steinman


From okblacke@usa.net Sun Dec  6 15:46:32 MET 1998
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From: okblacke@usa.net
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Subject: Re: IF as a career (was Tragedy)
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In article <744teu$959$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
  "Brandon Van Every" <vanevery@earthlink.net> wrote:
[stuff that I basically agree with]

>
> The context is that the games industry definitely needs scriptwriters.  The
> quality of the writing must be improved, IMHO that's the key to finally
> reaching a mass market instead of the paltry audiences of 4 million people
> that things like Myst reach.  Compared to TV audiences, this is peanuts.
>

My only point was that that's *your* context.  I imagine the discussions that
went on between Mike Berlyn and Kevin Wilson were tentative: "Let's see if
this floats."  I think *here*, in this group, one of the surest signs of the
"newbie" is the guy who says "I'm going to write a text adventure and make a
million dollars" (and the guy who says "I'm going to write a new IF
language."). Furthermore I think it's a fairly altruistic (and not a

If someone's desire is to do, well, *anything* around here, the only route to
credibility is action.

> Furthermore I think it is possible to implement 3D IF games like Grim
> Fandango with a very small team of people, 2 or 3 persons, if you are
> seriously determined and innovate rather than accepting the inevitable need
> for a $1 million budget.  This is a portal to making real money.  If you get
> the work done, you are reinvesting in yourself, increasing your chances that
> the games industry will ultimately pay you to do exactly what you want to
> do.  Maybe you even get lucky and figure out a way to bypass publishers, do
> it straight over the Internet.

I suspect we will get to the point where 3D technology and animation tools are
cheap and easy enough that people will be able to build their own 3D games
fairly easily.  But this isn't what I would call "writing IF".

>
> To me it's a matter of automatically assuming IF means only one thing (pure
> text games) vs. IF being a facet of a class of things in general (adventure
> games writ large).  We each carry our own context around with us, and
> although I understand the predominant leanings of r.a.i-f, there's no
> ironclad law that says the text adventure is the only kind of IF.
>

Nope.

> People also argue back and forth about whether plain textual IF has a
> potential market on PDAs and such.  Is anybody actually *trying* to make
> money on it, as opposed to theorizing?  It's probably a longshot, but if you
> keep the attitude that "yes it's impossible" then you will not reach for the
> stars, you cannot possibly succeed.

Well, yeah, but you gotta have the money and decide it's worth a largely
unfounded risk.

> No there's no hope about it.  I've spent the past 8 months learning to write
> in vein very similar to IF, the free-form PBEM RPG.  I'm most definitely
> writing this stuff in order to get rich.  It is part of a coherent business
> plan about what I believe the future of the games industry is.  It has to go
> mass market, and that means getting over the game geek stuff and learning
> how to tell stories.

Mebbe.  But IF isn't just "telling stories".

> The fact that I am not making money RIGHT NOW off of it, does not mean that
> I won't make money later, or that it is any way left as a matter of blind
> hope.  You have to have a strategic agenda, and this is hard work.

It is hope, blind or not. You may well make (a lot of) money, and you may do
it writing IF.	But I think you'll be the first.

> I've been talking to a number of my writer friends who are actually trying
> to get their work published, so I feel very comfortable in refuting you on
> these points.

I borrowed (edited) that line from Syd Field. At the end of "Screenplay" he
says keep your fantasy life separate from the reality.  And he's right.

> It is a numbers game, but saying it's a matter of statistics [etc.]

This is true.  And you're right that part of the reason most people don't get
published is that they fail on one of the four points you mention.

I have more experience here than "a friend who's near a Hollywood deal" and I
will say that I have been successful sometimes and unsuccessful others, often
with no correlation between the quality of my work and the degree of success.
The work never stops and success is in gradients: landing a role in enough
Z-movies might get you an audition for a B-movie, which if you get *that*
lets you fight it out amongst the thousands of other B-movie actors who
struggle for bit roles on TV shows and in movies, etc.

I remember reading Valda Hansen saying she thought she was going to be a star
because she'd landed a leading role in "Night of the Ghouls" back in 1958.  Of
course, the director couldn't afford to get the film developed and, even if he
had, he was Ed Wood, and none of his actors ever went on to star in anything
else.

Point being not to try, but to understand and be informed of the situation.
The situation in text IF is that it's dead as a "mainstream" art form
(inasmuch as it ever *was* mainstream).  Might it come back to life?  Maybe. 
But as a friend of mine put it, if Gutenberg had been followed by Tartikoff
in the space of a few years, we probably wouldn't have the great works of
English Literature.

> and that's why they fail.  You have to keep trying for a very long time and
> it's a lot of effort.  But sooner or later, some magazine editor is going to
> be short "that kind of article" that month, or movie director same thing.
> Then your stuff is needed, you're in.  And once you're in, you have the
> options.

Not entirely true. You do have to keep trying, and it is a lot of effort.
(And it's not, I hasten to point out, *writing*.)  The magazine editor is
infinitely more likely to need "that kind of article" than a director to
suddenly go "I have to make a movie! Quick, grab a script!"

A foot in the door is little more, unless you can follow it up quickly with
more.  Truth be told, most folks can't.

But I worked with an agent for years, and would basically agree with those
four points.  However, they don't translate perfectly to IF.

> [stuff on networking, work ethic]

All true.

> >And to bring it back home, has there ever been _anyone_ who got rich
> > writing IF?  Even in the early days?  Scott Adams made a living.
>
> Roberta Williams, obviously.
>> [my pointing out that Sierra On-Line was founded on more than IF]
> Does this invalidate the role of IF in making it?  I don't think so.

Well, actually, Sierra had a *lot* of products if memory serves. They had the
only graphics software that I know of for the Apple ][ in the late '70s.  I
don't know how big IF figures into the scheme.

But it does invalidate it if they wouldn't have achieved their wealth by
writing IF (alone), regardless of their acumen. Like, say, Infocom.

> Biz 101: you will not get rich working for someone else.

Define "rich".  In Hollywood it can happen, though you can get much richer if
you're *not* working for someone else.

> Then grow the market.  Do what needs to be done to make IF more populist.
> If that means you have to dress it up in 3D, do it.  The IF is still there.

This sort of goes back to a pet peeve I'm beginning to develop with that
saying "Follow your bliss. The money will follow."  My bliss is writing
polychromatic counterpoint.  The money will *never* follow.

Changing IF to make it more "populist" would necessarily destroy what it is
that makes IF "bliss" to a lot of people here.  Not because we're elitist
snobs, but because we *like reading* (and writing) and that puts us in the
minority.

To turn around and say, "well, just change it this way and you'll reach more
people" is fine, except that it removes that element we most enjoy.  It isn't
just generic storytelling--it's writing.

> [stuff about sullying]

I'm a little to familiar with the *work* involved with getting stuff published
(or even read) to worry about being "sullied" as you put it.  There may be
those here who believe that it is sullying, or just don't want to do it.

This is a good place for it.  Heck, it's why I come here.  It's a good break
>from worrying what will sell.  And I believe there is a future in the art
form, as well as an entertaining present.

[ok]

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From edromia@concentric.net Sun Dec  6 22:36:33 MET 1998
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icallaci@csupomona.edu wrote in message <74edaf$l5i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I think I remember reading a message a little while ago in which
>you were having trouble with the 64K dynamic memory limit. Am I
>right? If Anchorhead is 500K now, I'm really, really interested
>in how you solved that problem. Got any tips?
>
>irene
>


Just a lot of little down-sizing tricks, most of which I got from L. Ross
Raszewski. In particular, I went through every object in the game and
thought REAL HARD about how many synonyms it needed and how necessary it was
to the game at all. I took groups of objects that were very similar (such as
pits, stairways, fences, windows, etc.) and combined them into single
floating objects that behave slightly differently depending on where they
are at the moment. And I'm converting every NAME property with more than 4
words in it to a PARSE_NAME property instead. Tedious, but it's working.

For all that, I'm really pushing the limit. I've been floating between fb00
and fd00 pretty consistently, and at the moment I'm desparately trying to
make room for an object-oriented conversation system. I've pretty much
crammed about as much as a person can reasonably cram into a game of this
sort, and it's not going to get a whole lot bigger.

-M.
================================================
"If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?"

P.S. Raszewski's imem.h extension looks pretty sharp -- I'd recommend anyone
with the 64k problem to take a look at it. I didn't use it myself, because
it works best for games with distinct, separate parts (like Jigsaw and
SoFar), which my game is not.




From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Mon Dec  7 09:25:02 MET 1998
Article: 51984 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Photopia: Parallels, Stupid question, Random observations
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 14:23:59 -0500
Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA
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Ricardo Dague wrote:
> Ummm, it's SF since in the last scene Alley is described as
> growing out of a larval(?) stage and the Photopia machine
> seems like some futuristic device.

You mean the bit where she's said to have grown out of the "reptilian 
newborn stage"?  That's just imagery.  Newborns look like lizards.

The Photopia is just an LCD screen.  There are way more futuristic 
devices at your local electronics store.

> And by realistic I meant set in the present, and not
> fantastic or historical.

It is set in the present.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr if retina.net is ever resurrected


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Mon Dec  7 09:25:35 MET 1998
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Photopia: Parallels, Stupid question, Random observations
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 14:38:24 -0500
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Adam "Bruce" Thornton wrote:
> I read the whole Queen scene as an indictment of IF as it currently exists.
> 
> It seems that Alley and Adam are bemoaning the fact that IF worlds are
> inherently dead and sterile.

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call it an indictment.  A commentary, 
certainly.

> Doe tells me I'm overreading and being silly, because this has prompted a
> bit of a crisis of faith on my part.
> 
> But it *has*.  Character-heavy IF is doomed, at least until we have real
> AI, because the characters can't possibly be as well fleshed-out as even a
> lousy storyteller can make them.

Well, that's what I'll be trying to remedy in the V game.

Which I'm ready to get back to coding except for the fact that my 
computer has dropped stone cold dead for the second time in three weeks.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr if retina.net is ever resurrected


From straight@email.unc.edu Wed Dec  9 09:32:18 MET 1998
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From: Michael Straight <straight@email.unc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.games.development.design,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tragedy and the adventure game
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:39:12 -0500
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> mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
> 
> > It's not a matter of winning.  In a linear story, no matter what
> > the character's choice, you get to see all the story the author
> > wrote, and gain whatever enjoyment's to be gained.  In IF, if you
> > make choices that close the story off instantly, you've got to be
> > limiting your enjoyment greatly.  All that lovely text you'll never
> > be able to read.  So you go back and "undo"...but phooey, there
> > goes character identification.

What if, instead of identifying so closely with the character, you look at
it as a chance to see what would have happened to the character if she had
made different choices?  You might play the character so she leaves the
guy and takes the job, but then get the chance to go back and see, what if
she'd stayed with the guy and declined the job?  It's a different kind of
experience than what you're describing, but might it not also be fun?

I'm convinced that's the most enjoyable way to play Muse.  You can get to
one sub-optimal ending early on which, when you replay to the "optimal"
ending, helps you appreciate it more.  Seeing what would have happened if
another set of choices had been made creates a sort of dramatic irony that
lets the reader appreciate the "optimal" ending even more than the
characters (or perhaps gives you insight about what the characters might
have been able to guess about themselves that you can't since you don't
know them as well).

SMTIRCAHIAGEHLT



From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Wed Dec  9 13:40:43 MET 1998
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: [Inform] Calling porters for 6.20
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:52:08 +0100
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Inform 6.20: calling all porters...
===================================

I hope shortly to make a beta-test release of Inform 6.2, and would
be grateful if porters of the compiler could get in touch with me
so that we can make arrangements.

Since 6.2 contains new features in the code-generator and veneer,
and is to some extent work in progress, I think it'll need some
testing to shake out, so my suggestion is that early ports of Inform
6.20 for, say, PC and Mac be made available but be treated as
beta-test versions only.  Most Inform users will want to wait for
6.21 instead.

I don't expect 6.20 to be problematic to compile: it contains no
new data structures or radical departures in coding style from the
existing 6.15 source code.  "veneer.c" might possibly cause a little
pain for the Mac port simply because it contains some long static
strings, which I might have to rearrange, but we've managed to fix
this up in the past.

The new feature of 6.20 makes no difference to the language syntax
but adds a compiler switch, -S, which is by default set but can be
turned off.  "S" stands for "Strict" and aims to ensure that under
no circumstances can any Inform program (*) violate the Z-machine
specification in any way, whether to cause a "vile zero error from
hell", to divide by zero, to move objects so as to leave a loop in
the object tree, etc.  Instead, any such violation should cause
error messages like so to be printed up at run-time:

    [** Programming error: tried to find the "parent" of object
    "nothing" **]

    [** Programming error: tried to divide by zero **]

Anyone beta-testing Inform 6.20 is invited to amuse themselves
trying to write a program still capable of crashing the Z-machine.

((*) Except by using assembly language, in which case all bets are
off.)


In addition, in strict mode Inform 6.20 checks bounds on all declared
arrays.  For instance, a common error is to write code looks like this:

    Array layout --> 10;
    ...
    for (x = 1: x<=10 : x++) layout-->x = 0;

and if compiled with -S this will cause the following to be printed at
run-time:

    [** Programming error: tried to write to -->10 in the array
    "layout", which has entries 0 up to 9 **]

I developed these features mostly to help me remove Vile Zero Errors
>From Hell from the Inform library, but it occurs to me that they will
probably be useful for other Inform programmers too, and cause a
little less hair-tearing and worrying over the strictness or not of
one's chosen interpreter.  A useful side-effect, or so I hope, is
that the next release of the library contains a new debugging feature;
it allows you to monitor the state of objects during play.  The
output currently looks like this:

    Attic

    A hinged trapdoor in the floor stands open, and light streams in
    from below.

    >n
    [Moving yourself to Old Winery]

    Old Winery
    This small cavity at the north end of the attic once housed all
    manner of home-made wine paraphernalia, now lost and unlamented.
    Steps, provided with a good strong banister rail, lead down and
    to the west, and the banister rail continues along a passage east.

    You can see a labelled glass demijohn (which is closed) (in which
    are a nasty-looking red battery and a tourist map) here.
    [Giving Old Winery visited]
    [Setting Old Winery.still_air_disturbed to 1]

    As you disturb the still air, the attic key, which was balanced on
    top of the demijohn, slips onto the floor and disappears into a
    crack in the floorboards. Your spirits sink as it does, rattling
    down some distance. How on earth are you going to get it back?

Lastly, I wish to tidy up a couple of known bugs in the Inform 6.15
veneer for 6.20.  (This is a good time to tell me about that kind of
bug, if anyone reading this knows of any.)

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From max@alcyone.com Thu Dec 10 16:08:44 MET 1998
Article: 52147 of rec.arts.int-fiction
From: Erik Max Francis <max@alcyone.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inscribe]  New authoring system postponed
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:04:42 -0800
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:52147

TenthStone wrote:

> Actually, pre-beta testers are the authors.  Any testing not done by
> the
> authors but performed before the first release is beta testing;  any
> testing done after that point is gamme testing.
>
> Of course, it's not as if there were a standard nomenclature. 

Speaking as someone who works in the software industry, alpha testing
means internal testing, beta testing means testing that is doled out to
interested parties not affiliated with the company, and gamma testing is
that which is done deliberately _after_ the product ships (which only
happens in strange circumstances) -- not counting the "testing" that
gets done by customers actually using the product and submitting problem
reports.

Pre-beta means alpha, and alpha testers would be any quality assurance
engineers working on that product.  Which, for a single-person project,
means just the author.

-- 
Erik Max Francis / email max@alcyone.com / whois mf303 / icq 16063900
Alcyone Systems / irc maxxon (efnet) / finger max@finger.alcyone.com
  San Jose, CA / languages En, Eo / web http://www.alcyone.com/max/
          USA / icbm 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W / &tSftDotIotE
             \
            / He who laughs has not yet heard the bad news.
           / Bertolt Brecht


From jfrancis@dungeon.engr.sgi.com Thu Dec 10 16:08:57 MET 1998
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From: jfrancis@dungeon.engr.sgi.com (John Francis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inscribe]  New authoring system postponed
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In article <366EE5EA.688563EB@alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis  <max@alcyone.com> wrote:
>TenthStone wrote:
>
>> Actually, pre-beta testers are the authors.  Any testing not done by
>> the
>> authors but performed before the first release is beta testing;  any
>> testing done after that point is gamme testing.
>>
>> Of course, it's not as if there were a standard nomenclature. 
>
>Speaking as someone who works in the software industry, alpha testing
>means internal testing, beta testing means testing that is doled out to
>interested parties not affiliated with the company, and gamma testing is
>that which is done deliberately _after_ the product ships (which only
>happens in strange circumstances) -- not counting the "testing" that
>gets done by customers actually using the product and submitting problem
>reports.

Actually, alpha testing means testing something that is not yet in the
necessary state for release.  That *may* be simply because it hasn't
gone through QA testing, or it may be becuse it is functionally incomplete.

>Pre-beta means alpha, and alpha testers would be any quality assurance
>engineers working on that product.  Which, for a single-person project,
>means just the author.

Not necessarily.  A version of a game missing the endgame is not yet
ready for final release, so is not a candidate for beta testing. But
it might make sense to have someone other than the author look at it.

You might even do this with a game flawed in other ways.  You might
not yet have implemented a capacity limit, or a particular NPC puzzle,
or a whole region or sub-game.
But it still makes sense to have other parts of your game tested, even
though there are significant pieces still left to write.

Alpha testing tests particular functionality to make sure it can be
made to work with no disastrous side-effects.  There may well be
constraints on how the functionality can be invoked, etc.

Beta testing alse requires that the entire product is implemented, with
no missing parts.   You can't go to Beta until functionally complete.


From bkm@pobox.com Thu Dec 10 20:17:17 MET 1998
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From: bkm@pobox.com (Bonnie Montgomery)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Collaborations?
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 20:57:10 -0800
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With creative writing and a somewhat logical mind as my assets, I wrote
Firebird as my first stab at programming with a great deal of assistance
>from Chris Nebel, a certified techie. It really did amount to a
collaboration, given the amount of time we spent talking through plot
ideas, implementation schemes, and the type of experience I wanted to
offer the player.

>From the outset, Chris was of the opinion that I could code a great deal
of the game myself, and he was right. I started out coding rooms, objects,
and actors, looked at a lot of source code for old TADS games, and built
on my successes.

He would step in when I had reached the limits of my abilities. It became
apparent after a few months of work that I was not the natural programmer
he was, and it was often easier to have him code things when his
explanations of how to implement something met with my dull, returning
stare.

I did want to do a lot of things that were difficult or impossible to
code, especially at first, but I did develop a better sense over time of
the strengths and limitations of TADS.

The game was written in two qualitatively different stages. The first was
in 1994 and 1995, the first year that Chris and I were dating. Our
collaboration was limited to phone calls and weekly visits then. The
second chunk was written in 1997 and 1998, after we were married. It was
that ability to talk and work together every day that helped finally
finish the thing. That we were in a relationship is probably irrelevant.
We just happened to work pretty well together on this sort of project.
Come to think of it, that we did collaborate so well went a long way in
convincing me that Chris was a person who would make an excellent partner
in the big interactive game of marriage.

Chris and I are proof that a programmer and a non-programmer can write a
game together. Mostly it took patience and a willingness to see things
>from the other person's perspective, especially when one of us was
frustrated with the other. And, don't think you will stay a non-programmer
for the entire project. As long as you're reasonably intelligent and
logical, you will catch on as you learn by doing.

Hope you find this encouraging. I was really glad in the end to have
finished and released a game. It was one of the highlights of my year.

Bonnie

In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.981209212748.24853B-100000@eclipse>, Stacy the
Procrastinating <sc467@okapi.columbia.edu> wrote:

> I know the IF collaborators list exists, but does anyone know of any
> games created by a collaboration between a programmer and a
> non-programmer? (or a team with a combination of programmers and
> non-programmers?)  I'm curious because I'm kicking around a project idea,
> but my many months of playing with Inform and Hugo tutorials have
> convinced me that it'll be quite a while (as in, give or take a
> decade or two) before my programming skills are up to snuff for
> implementing a whole game.  (I have some C programming experince, but 
> very very little - I once wrote what my Intro to Comp Sci TA called "the
> most interestingly broken wumpus I have ever seen").  
> 
> I've been wondering, though, if collaborations are truly possible between
> a programming ignoramus and a techie: there are things that would seem
> trivial to a non-programmer ("what do you mean I can't have the player
> take half the dirt?") that would be obviously not so to a programmer.  
> I wonder if those technical limitations that are second nature to
> programmes but foreign to non-programmers would become huge barriers.  As
> a somewhat-similar example, when I try to do collaborative Web projects
> with print designers, it tends to end in frustration because they just
> don't understand the limits of HTML.  I wonder if that would be the case
> in an IF collaboration.  Obviously, determined parties could ideally
> communicate well enough to work around such barriers, but I wonder if the
> collaborative approach would work effectively in practicality.  Thoughts?
> (particularly from anyone who's tried it!)
>  
> -stacy
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> bookbug of the brower's bookweb
> http://bookweb.simplenet.com 
> * to reply to this message, cut the animal out of the address *


From palmer@secant.com Sun Dec 13 16:58:09 MET 1998
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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Martin Dransfield wrote:
>
> Is this a standard JVM implementation of Scheme like Kawa or SILK?  
> Or is it specially adapted for IF?

I'm using Kawa for all of my prototyping; all of the "IF-ness" 
is done at the library level.  Some of the library stuff (the
object system, the dictionary, et cetera) then turns into 
basic language constructs when the Z-machine compiler is used.
I call it "Zcheme;" a legal Zcheme program should run on any
R5RS-complient Scheme interpreter, on the JVM, and if you follow
certain guidelines, it should compile into Z-code.  The idea is 
to provide a migration path beyond the Z-machine.

Magnus Olsson wrote:
> 
> You may also get some ideas from AdvSys (AFAIK the first
> full-featured, object oriented adventure language), also available
> from the IF-archive.  AdvSys is very Lisp-like. It was written up in
> an article in Byte around 1986 or so.

In fact, AdvSys was my point of departure for all of this.  Way
back in the mists of time, before there was an Inform, I did all
of my IF development in AdvSys.  TADS was still in version 1.x,
and wasn't free, and wouldn't run on my NeXT in any event.  A
lot of what's in Zcheme now is the result of some brainstorming
on what would have to be added to AdvSys to bring it up to the
level of functionality that TADS had in those days; I found that
I could do most of it by hacking up the library without touching
the AdvSys code itself.  Later, I discovered Scheme, and wound
up porting all of my old AdvSys code over.

-- 
                   Palmer Davis <palmer@secant.com>
   Secant Technologies * 4853 Galaxy Parkway * Cleveland OH 44128


From edromia@concentric.net Mon Dec 14 15:26:06 MET 1998
Article: 52388 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "Michael Gentry" <edromia@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: automatic examining
Date: 13 Dec 1998 11:28:50 PST
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Okay, how about this:

Examining an object (whether through picking it up or through the EXAMINE
command) puts an "examined_already" flag on the object. Picking up an object
will only provide a description if the object does not have the
"examined_already" flag set -- so that takes care of examining the object
before you pick it up.

The default message for picking up an item looks like this:

"You take the <object>. <object's description>."

In other words:

>TAKE PLIERS
You take the pliers. They are grease-stained and heavy, with cracked rubber
hand grips.

This makes it clear that the pliers are in hand. It also suggests that the
player picked up the pliers, and *then* looked at them.

The fact that it's a *default* message means that if there's a special
routine set to occur when you take something -- i.e., an alarm goes off, or
a poison needle jabs you -- the object's description is superseded. This
makes sense, because the player's attention would naturally be drawn first
to the event (clanging alarm bells, or a sudden burning pain in the hand),
and only later to object, if he/she remembers to explicitly EXAMINE it. Each
special case should still be worded so as to make it clear whether or not
the object is in hand.

Oh yes, and a special routine would still set the "examined_already" flag.
Once an object is picked up, whether you got a chance to look at it or not,
the game will assume that you aren't paying special attention to it unless
you specifically say so.

This may not be enough for universal application, but I think it covers all
the bases in my game.

-M.
================================================
"If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?"





From sothoth@xxx.usa.net Mon Dec 14 15:26:49 MET 1998
Article: 52418 of rec.arts.int-fiction
From: "Gunther Schmidl" <sothoth@xxx.usa.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: [Inform] 6/8 and pronouns - hack
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:47:57 +0100
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Are you, too annoyed that after

  >GET KNIFE. CUT ROPE WITH IT.

'it' is set to 'rope' when it should be 'knife' still? This messes up
'AGAIN', too.

Here's an easy fix. In parserm.h, look for the lines saying

  if (parameters > 0 && results-->2 >= 2)
  PronounNotice(results-->2);

and add the line

  if (pronoun_obj) == NULL

before PronounNotice(results-->2);

Thanks to zarf for the vital tip; I take no guarantees, though.

BTW, I proposed this to Graham as an optional feature (maybe define a
constant like PERSISTENT_PRONOUNS, like you have to do with
MANUAL_PRONOUNS), but here's the hack anyway :-)

--
+------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
+ Gunther Schmidl        + "I couldn't help it. I can resist everything +
+ Ferd.-Markl-Str. 39/16 +  except temptation"           -- Oscar Wilde +
+ A-4040 LINZ            +---------------+------------------------------+
+ Tel: 0732 25 28 57     + ICQ: 22447430 + http://gschmidl.home.ml.org/ +
+------------------------+---+-----------+------------------------------+
+ sothoth (at) usa (dot) net + please remove the "xxx." before replying +
+----------------------------+------------------------------------------+




From edromia@concentric.net Mon Dec 14 15:33:01 MET 1998
Article: 52390 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "Michael Gentry" <edromia@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: listing conversation topics
Date: 13 Dec 1998 11:45:01 PST
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Okay, I have another opinion poll.

I'm using the standard ASK/TELL ABOUT (topic) format for conversation in my
game. All possible conversation topics have been coded as objects for
purposes of flexibility.

Some of these topics do not become available to the player until later in
the game. For example, as soon as the protagonist encounters the pink
crystal ankh (or whatever), he/she may ask people about it; before then,
however, the topic is not available because the protagonist would know
nothing about it.

Now, if you ask someone about something that is not anywhere in the list of
topics -- hormonal regulation of brown adipose tissue growth, for example,
or Guam -- the NPC will answer with a standard "I don't know much about
that," response. If you ask them about something on the list and known to
the PC, they will answer or not depending on whether they're coded to have
an intelligent response to that topic. If you ask about something that is on
the list of topics but which the PC *has not yet encountered*, you get a
message like "You can't think of anything to to say about that at the
moment."

Which is something of a giveaway, I know, but I figure most of the players
who are trying out topics earlier in the game than they should are the ones
who are playing it a second time, anyway. I've tried to be careful about
which topics start out as "generic knowledge" and which ones are only
revealed during the course of the game.

Okay, my two questions are:

1) Would you find that "You can't think of anything to say about that"
message annoying?

and

2) How would you feel about a meta-command TOPICS, which would list all the
topics that the PC is currently able to talk about with others? Would this
make the game too easy? Would it make the conversation system seem more
mechanistic than it needs to be?

Let me know.

-M.
================================================
"If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?"




From jcmason@uwaterloo.ca Mon Dec 14 15:33:14 MET 1998
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From: jcmason@uwaterloo.ca (Joe Mason)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: listing conversation topics
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Michael Gentry <edromia@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>Okay, my two questions are:
>
>1) Would you find that "You can't think of anything to say about that"
>message annoying?

Yes.  I'd recommend simply adding it to the list of topics when the player
refers to it.  This might, in theory, mess with the flow of the game, but
like you said it's probably going to be second-time players doing this.

If you do decide on a special message for this situation, "You can't think
of anything to say about that" seems like an especially annoying one. A
simple, "But you don't know about the <topic> yet" would be better.

>2) How would you feel about a meta-command TOPICS, which would list all the
>topics that the PC is currently able to talk about with others? Would this
>make the game too easy? Would it make the conversation system seem more
>mechanistic than it needs to be?

I'm in favour of that.  People who don't like it can just not use it.

Joe
-- 
Congratulations, Canada, on preserving your national igloo.  
-- Mike Huckabee, Governor of Arkansas


From odd1out@openface.ca Mon Dec 14 15:33:23 MET 1998
Article: 52413 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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Subject: Re: listing conversation topics
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In article <7515ft$37b@chronicle.concentric.net>,
  "Michael Gentry" <edromia@concentric.net> wrote:

> 1) Would you find that "You can't think of anything to say about that"
> message annoying?

No. In fact, I would argue that this response should be the standard one given
for a topic not on the list, so as to do away with that problem of its being a
giveaway. It would also do away with the problem of the NPC replying "I don't
know much about that" to >ASK NPC ABOUT HIS MOTHER.

> 2) How would you feel about a meta-command TOPICS, which would list all the
> topics that the PC is currently able to talk about with others? Would this
> make the game too easy? Would it make the conversation system seem more
> mechanistic than it needs to be?

Umm, I'm not quite sure I like these conversation topic lists. I usually end
up working my way through them without regard to the game, as if said lists
were shopping lists. If you think you must implement it, it should probably
belong in the hint menu. Or cleverly written in the form of a "stuff I know"
journal entry. Or something.

>
> Let me know.

Okay.
   Christopher Huang

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Dec 15 09:51:37 MET 1998
Article: 52444 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [INFORM] Library 6/8 -S switch: a funny thing
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Magnus Olsson (mol@bartlet.df.lth.se) wrote:
> >The -S checking for the "-->" and "->" operators actually forbids writing
> >anywhere in memory except arrays and property tables. The
> >default-property-value table is outside those ranges, so it will get
> >trapped no matter what.

> I see. I thought it was just disallowing access to the null object at
> address 0 (thus preventing V0EFH), but it's a good idea to be even
> stricter than that.

<aoogah> theory error <aoogah>

The "null object" is not at address zero. It's at 14 bytes before the
first entry in the object table, which is still quite a ways up in
Z-machine memory.

VZEFH refers to passing zero as an object number. Writing to *address*
zero, or an offset from address zero, is *legal* in the Z-machine; it's
just usually not what a programmer wants to do. 

In fact, there's a special exception for writing to "0->10". This produces
no warning, because there are header bits there that games sometimes want
to set.

(I'm going by a discussion I had with Graham several days ago; I hope he
hasn't changed the code between then and the 6.20 release, or I'm going to
look awfully silly. :-) I haven't actually looked at the latest Inform
source.)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Dec 15 13:12:00 MET 1998
Article: 52446 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Inform] "updating hacks" to the *.H libraries
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Zimri (zimriel@earthlink.net) wrote:
> Two vents follow...

> graham_fyffe@hotmail.com wrote in message
> <751l85$mqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >In article <ant1302550b0M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>,
> >  Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> Inform Library 6/8 now released
> >> ===============================
> >
> >Excellent.  I guess this means I'll have to update my hacks.

> You mean hacking the library?  Specifically, the [ LanguageLM n x1; function
> of the English.h library?  Don't do that.  You'd have to redo it every time
> Dr Nelson makes a change.  Even then, you might mess up and have to
> redownload it.  Finally, it's ethically questionable (I mean, this is
> someone else's code...).
>
> Having said that, I've felt the need to override the canned responses,
> believe me.

Ah. Yes, this is a known topic.

The LibraryMessages scheme isn't a workaround -- it's the documented,
supported way to change Inform library messages. Graham (Nelson :-) will
certainly ensure that it keeps working through future library releases.

However, it has one significant disadvantage: when you override a message
with LibraryMessages, the default string is still compiled into your game
file, even though it's never used. If you replace *lots* of messages, this
wastes a fair amount of space. (High memory, not RAM.) Some authors have
*had* to edit LanguageLM; the memory bloat would be crippling otherwise.

However (again), I think Graham (Fyffe :-) wasn't just talking about
replacing library messages. He supports a large set of library alterations
that go a lot deeper than text changes. There's nothing wrong with that.

> To sum up:  there's no pressing need to hack the library, but by all means,
> override it.  PLEASE override it.  Your grandchildren will thank you.  I
> will thank you.  Garrison Boyd from the Amstell Lite commercials will thank
> you.  Angels will sing your name <blah blah Blah...>

Well, no.

There's only one person that will thank you for not hacking the library,
and that's you. You're the one who has to support the hacks for your own
game. You're the one that has to transfer them to a new library when a new
library appears.

There are ways to minimize the hackiness. You can Replace a library
routine in your own code. But sometimes this doesn't help, and you really
do have to go in and change the library source.

I have had to hack the library for each of my games. They were small
hacks, but important for small parsing details that I wanted to get
*right*. (Right my *my* game, of course -- these were customizations for
my game, not library bugs.) 

I pay the price: I have to keep a separate version of the library files
for every games. Since I'm lazy, I probably will never upgrade any of
those games to a more advanced library version; I'd have to transfer the
hacks over, and then re-test *everything*. 

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From garethr@cre.canon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 13:12:23 MET 1998
Article: 52433 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Gareth Rees <garethr@cre.canon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Inform] "updating hacks" to the *.H libraries
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:52433

Doeadeer3 <doeadeer3@aol.com> wrote:
> I put a big !CHANGED comment before each change so I can use my word
> search function in my editor to find it and change each new library
> that way also (if I want to keep that change as a standard change).

One approach to this problem (applying your library changes to a new
version of the library) is to use an interactive 3-way merge tool.

A 3-way merge tool takes 3 files:

  1 an ancestor (in this case, Graham's 6/7 library release);
  2 a revision of file 1 (in this case, Graham's 6/8 library release);
  3 another revision of file 1 (in this case, your hacked library).

An interactive 3-way merge tool presents you with a list of the changes
>from file 1 to file 2.  You can examine each change and decide whether
you want to apply it to file 3 or not.  Where the 1->2 change overlaps
with one of your 1->3 changes the tool won't be able to make the change
automatically, but it can flag the change as one needing some work on
your part.

Tools you can use:

  * In Unix, `merge' is a non-interactive 3-way merge tool (it
    automatically applies all the 1->2 changes to 3, flagging overlaps).

  * `ediff' is an Emacs application for performing interactive 3-way
    merges.  It is very good indeed (especially since it's easy to step
    out of `ediff' and back into your file to do some editing to patch
    up an overlap).  It comes as standard with Emacs and XEmacs.

  * The commercial VCS tool Perforce (http://www.perforce.com/) has an
    interactive 3-way merge editor.

-- 
Gareth Rees


From neilc@norwich.edu Tue Dec 15 13:12:30 MET 1998
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From: neilc@norwich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] "updating hacks" to the *.H libraries
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 01:08:39 GMT
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In article <si67beifg3.fsf@cre.canon.co.uk>,
  Gareth Rees <garethr@cre.canon.co.uk> wrote:
> Doeadeer3 <doeadeer3@aol.com> wrote:
> > I put a big !CHANGED comment before each change so I can use my word
> > search function in my editor to find it and change each new library
> > that way also (if I want to keep that change as a standard change).
>
> One approach to this problem (applying your library changes to a new
> version of the library) is to use an interactive 3-way merge tool.
>
> A 3-way merge tool takes 3 files:
>
>   1 an ancestor (in this case, Graham's 6/7 library release);
>   2 a revision of file 1 (in this case, Graham's 6/8 library release);
>   3 another revision of file 1 (in this case, your hacked library).
>
> An interactive 3-way merge tool presents you with a list of the changes
> from file 1 to file 2.  You can examine each change and decide whether
> you want to apply it to file 3 or not.  Where the 1->2 change overlaps
> with one of your 1->3 changes the tool won't be able to make the change
> automatically, but it can flag the change as one needing some work on
> your part.
>
> Tools you can use:
>
>   * In Unix, `merge' is a non-interactive 3-way merge tool (it
>     automatically applies all the 1->2 changes to 3, flagging overlaps).
>
>   * `ediff' is an Emacs application for performing interactive 3-way
>     merges.  It is very good indeed (especially since it's easy to step
>     out of `ediff' and back into your file to do some editing to patch
>     up an overlap).  It comes as standard with Emacs and XEmacs.
>
>   * The commercial VCS tool Perforce (http://www.perforce.com/) has an
>     interactive 3-way merge editor.

Another possibility is the interesting GNU utility, diff3.

--
Neil Cerutti
neilc@norwich.edu

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Tue Dec 15 18:00:29 MET 1998
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tracy and the adventure game
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 02:34:34 -0500
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Marnie Parker wrote:
> Tracy was a male fantasy.

This is the kind of statement that I want to point to whenever someone 
starts making fun of the infamous "It depends on what the definition of 
'is' is" from Clinton's deposition.  Sometimes there *are* several ways 
to unpack a statement.  This is one of those times.

If by "male fantasy" you mean that she's the kind of girl that males 
fantasize about, I'd take exception to that -- you'd be hard pressed to 
come up with a fantasy shared by 2.8 billion people.  That kind of 
thinking casts males not as individuals but as members of a sex which one 
can make sweeping generalizations about, so I hope this isn't what you mean.

If by "male fantasy" you mean that she is a fantasy of one particular 
male, namely me, I'd take exception to that -- in that case you'd be 
trying to read my mind, and reading it wrong.  Tracy isn't really my 
type.  As I've mentioned in the past, I initially set out to make Tracy 
rather dislikable, and only warmed to her toward the end as I came to 
know more about her.  So I also hope this isn't what you mean.

If by "male fantasy" you mean that she is a character a female author 
would never have come up with, well, once again that would be a 
generalization -- this time of 2.9 billion people.  (cf. Gillian Bonner 
at this point.)  Now, if you mean that those who fantasize about her are 
more likely to be male than female, sure, I'll concede that.  But at that 
point it just becomes a matter of incidental statistics, with your 
complaint lying not in the demographics of those doing the fantasizing 
but rather the fact that a female is being fantasized about at all.  In 
which case "male fantasy" might be better put as "fantasy object".  And 
now we're getting somewhere.

Usually when sexism and objectification comes up, it's because we're 
looking at a scenario where the male is the subject, the looker, the 
doer, and the female is the object, the looked-at, the done-to.  On one 
level, this could hardly be further from the case at hand, where Tracy is 
the only character with any subjectivity.  She's the one who does the 
looking (>X STUFF) and the doing.  But I think I see what you may be 
getting at: on another level, one could argue that she is a toy being 
presented as an object to be played with by people who don't see through 
her eyes, but through their own.

I admit, there is something to this.  But I don't think that it's the 
whole story.  And the reason that's it's not the whole story is primarily 
because it's not a way to get the whole story.  Mary Kuhner really hit on 
something when she theorized that most IF players are primarily motivated 
to see all the text, that even the happiest of endings is unsatisfying if 
90% of the text is left unread.  Now look at how I-0 is structured.  
Pretty much all the titillating stuff is available right from the first 
turn: if you want to treat Tracy like an ASCII inflatable doll and then 
have her black out from heat stroke after forty turns, you can.  But that 
approach to the game is *not* rewarded in Mary's sense -- you're cheated 
of the chance to see the rest of what there is to see.  If the ability to 
play with Tracy were presented as a goal, as a reward, then I can see how 
that might be objectionable.  But that's not the reward.  The reward is 
the chance to see Tracy's handprints in the cement of the patio.  The 
reward is to come to know her better as a person.

I read an interview with Jock Sturges in which he pointed out the 
difference between his work and a pinup.  In a pinup, the viewer is 
discouraged from inquiring about the person in the picture -- it's just a 
body, and the viewer is only supposed to fantasize about that body, what 
he might do to that body.  Whereas in Sturges's work, the focus is on the 
subject of the photos as a *subject*, as a radiant and evolving *person*: 
the viewer is encouraged to wonder what the eyes of the person in the 
picture are seeing.  Misty Dawn is an anti-pinup.  And to that extent, to 
the extent that the end of I-0 is geared to leave off with Tracy as 
someone the player wouldn't think of treating as an object because she's 
not an anonymous body but rather someone you know reasonably intimately, 
I don't think that Tracy is objectified.

Of course, you could also argue that the type of person most likely to 
play with Tracy as a toy is the least likely to get this last point.  But 
those are the breaks, I think.  One of the worst things you can do to art 
is try to idiot-proof it.  The right people will get it.  That's what counts.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr if retina.net is ever resurrected


From mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu Tue Dec 15 18:04:29 MET 1998
Article: 52496 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tracy and the adventure game
Date: 14 Dec 1998 23:55:38 GMT
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I can only speak for myself here, of course.

I didn't find _I-0_ sexist, per se.  I did find it unpleasant,
despite my appreciation of how well made it is.  The situations are
archetypal ones I've been taught all my life to fear and loathe--
at least, the early situations I managed to get into were--and I
couldn't enjoy them.  For me, being around a rapist and managing 
not to get raped is not a feeling of accomplishment or empowerment:  
it's just horrible, a reminder that this happens, that it's hard 
ever to feel entirely safe or to trust in other peoples' basic decency.  
So I didn't get raped:  but *he tried to rape me*.  Ick.  I was 
looking at him as a person, he was looking at me as an object.  Ick!
While reminders such as this have their uses, they don't entertain
me.

"Photopia" was painful, but it also had a great deal of beauty.
_I-O_ just hit the painful notes, for me--I don't know what kind
of appeal it would take to make me stick with it, but whatever it
was, I didn't encounter it in the first couple of threads I tried.
I didn't like Tracy, but that didn't make identifying with her any
less painful, it just reduced my sense that there would be any
reward for digging that hard into my own sore spots.  (No, I've
never been raped, but I ran a womens' circle for a while and I've
tried to help other women who have.  Without the living,
breathing woman whom I might be able to help, I'd never have had
the fortitude to stick with those discussions.)

I wonder, then, if Doe and others who think "this game was obviously
written for men" were responding, on some level, to the fact that
this is a less distressing situation for most men than for most
women, because they don't have to deal with it day in and day out.
I recall my father saying, of a movie that featured men being
embarrased in particularly male ways, that it was painful for him to
watch:  I didn't feel that at all when I watched it, because it's
an embarrassment I don't share and therefore it doesn't hit the same
nerves.

This isn't a criticism of the game, though, so much as a self-
assessment that I'm never likely to like the genre.

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu


From sc467@okapi.columbia.edu Wed Dec 16 00:07:17 MET 1998
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From: Stacy the Procrastinating <sc467@okapi.columbia.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tracy and the adventure game
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:50:17 -0500
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On 14 Dec 1998, Doeadeer3 wrote:

> I thought it looked like a game about a bimbo, about the vicitimization of that
> bimbo, about the sexual victimization of that bimbo. 
> 
> I also got tired over a year ago of defending or explaining the feminist
> viewpoint. Many reacted very negatively to things I said then (on another
> topic). Many assumed because I am a feminist that I was a "man hater" or knee
> jerk reactor or some such thing. I don't need all that negativity directed
> toward me in raif.

OK, I know you said you just looked at the source code, and I think
playing the game does make a difference. I'm as much of a feminist as
anyone (hard to go to a women's college and not be), and there was
*nothing* I found offensive in _I/O_.  And, going back to an earlier theme
in this thread, I also assumed Wendy was a bimbo when for the first couple
of "Red" moves in "Photopia" (and no, I didn't know Adam had written it
then), but it didn't alienate me because the writing was strong enough
that I assumed the author was doing that intentionally.  By the time I was
on the Gold beach all thoughts of bimbo were gone and I was just having
fun being Wendy.


 > 
> Tracy didn't deserve to be victimized just because she was a bimbo. I would
> never LIKE a game about the victimization of a woman, especially sexual
> victimization. 

The thing about I/O is that Tracy is using those around here much more
than vice versa.  I hate the assumption that anytime a woman is sexual
she's being victimized.  (Plus, you can play I/O pretty chastely--it just
depends on what you want to try).  There's only one plot branch where
Tracy falls pray to sterotypical victimization, and (if the player takes
her that route), she gets in trouble because she's reckless and dumb.  I
doubt a guy would fare any better in that situation.

> It seemed to me to be a game for men, a game for some men to enjoy either/and
> the sex, Tracy's bimboness or the victimization of a woman. It doesn't matter
> if all the male characters were protrayed as bad. That was and is my take on
> it. Period.

I'm a woman, and I had fun with it. I find more sexism in the dozens of
games that just assume I'm a man, and with the games where female
characters exist only as seductive wallpaper.  I/O was a sendup of sexual
stereotypes (I loved what happens when you try kissing the Taco Junata
girl).  Women can be lots of different things, and they can handle
sitations with their brains or the bodies or both, just like men can.

(and this isn't in any way an attack on you, Doe, or an attempt to stir up
negativity.  Just another woman's viewpoint.)


-stacy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bookbug of the brower's bookweb
http://bookweb.simplenet.com 
* to reply to this message, cut the animal out of the address *



From mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu Wed Dec 16 00:07:32 MET 1998
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From: mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tracy and the adventure game
Date: 15 Dec 1998 00:33:37 GMT
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.981214183614.21179A-100000@eclipse>,
Stacy the Procrastinating  <sc467@okapi.columbia.edu> wrote:

SPOILERS for I/0























>The thing about I/O is that Tracy is using those around here much more
>than vice versa.  I hate the assumption that anytime a woman is sexual
>she's being victimized.  (Plus, you can play I/O pretty chastely--it just
>depends on what you want to try).  There's only one plot branch where
>Tracy falls pray to sterotypical victimization, and (if the player takes
>her that route), she gets in trouble because she's reckless and dumb.  I
>doubt a guy would fare any better in that situation.

The idea that taking a ride from a stranger is reckless and dumb--if
that's the branch you're thinking of--it's kind of sickening, isn't
it?  I mean, hitchhiking is something I was always stringently warned
against, but it's also part of a vision of society I'd really like to
encourage.  People helping each other out, without money or fancy rules
of exchange.  And yet, if I traced out the thread to all of its
outcomes--I'm not sure I did, that's where I gave up--once you accept
that particular ride, Tracy can either kill the man, or die, or get raped,
or "decide" to have sex under threat of rape.  I don't think this is 
unrealistic, or sexist, but I didn't find it entertaining either.
It's that same damned horror story I was told over and over, so that if
I *do* trust my judgement and accept a ride from a stranger I always
feel sick and scared and uncertain.

It's possible that one variable between women who were bugged by this
and women who weren't is what branches we saw.  I may have had bad
luck (or judgement) in that regard.  There may be lots of branches
where if Tracy gets in trouble it's because she really did do something
wrong, but they weren't the ones I found.  I was trying to get Tracy
out of trouble, not into it.  If I were out there, getting close to heat
stroke, I'd take a lift too and hope that it worked out.  (And, honestly,
it generally does work out.)

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washingto.edu


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Dec 16 10:23:17 MET 1998
Article: 52441 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
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Joe Mason (jcmason@uwaterloo.ca) wrote:

> That's right.  The last operand of @read_char (which is 0) has to be a
> variable.  Try

>   @read_char 1 0 0 i;

> (Don't forget to add i to the list of variables at the top of your routine.)

All right, I've seen this too many times (probably because it's in the DM,
but it should be changed)

There are two forms of the @read_char opcode:

@read_char 1 i;

This waits for a character to be read, and stores it in i.

@read_char delay callback i;

This is the timed-input form, which waits for a character to be read, but
also calls callback() every delay/10 seconds.

Now, the spec says (and at this point most interpreters understand) that
if the delay and callback arguments are zero, they should be ignored.

Nonetheless, life will be less confusing if you don't put them in. At
least, don't put them in believing that they're needed. It's not ritual
magic.

(Now, the "1" in the first argument, *that's* ritual magic. :-)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From edromia@concentric.net Wed Dec 16 14:10:46 MET 1998
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Subject: Re: Tracy and the adventure game
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Jason Melancon wrote in message <756a42$9us$1@news-1.news.gte.net>...
>But you *made* it possible to CROSS THE ROAD and get hit by a truck.
>That's the interactivity--explicitly do a trivial, routine action, or
>die violently.

So what? I wrote a game in which the PC (who is not only female, but largely
modeled after my own wife) can stand on railroad tracks and placidly wait
for a freight train to squash her. Doesn't mean I hate my wife, or think
women are objects.

The whole hostility angle to this sexism argument rings pretty hollow to me,
and here's why: the violence and unpleasant situations in I-0 are incidental
to the whole sexism debate; they only dovetail with the sexist argument
*after* you've made the implicit assumption that your argument is right --
that the game is, in fact, explicitly sexist. But as Adam pointed out
earlier, the violence and unpleasant situations of themselves don't make the
game any more sexist than Plundered Hearts (or Anchorhead).

An exercise: take the truck scenario, or the vile hitchhiker, and replace
Tracy with another sort of character -- the genderless Zork-venturer, for
example, or a chicken. (Wasn't there an I-0 spoof in chicken comp?) Any idea
that the game contains some sort of subtextual *hostility* towards whatever
demographic is now represented by the PC evaporates. All games have death
traps. That's why they're "adventures".

Meanwhile, take a game like "Moist", wherein the player is given the option
of incapacitating a woman with alcohol, shackling her to a table, and anally
raping her. In this case, the hostility is pretty evident regardless of
who -- or what -- you've got strapped to the table.

What really seems to be the issue here is the fact that Adam programmed
boobs and genitalia and verbs like FUCK and MASTURBATE and GIVE HEAD into
his game. Some felt that was demeaning and objectifying, others felt that it
was meant to be parody and took it as such.

-M.
================================================
"If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?"





From neild@acm.rpi.edu Wed Dec 16 14:12:26 MET 1998
Article: 52563 of rec.arts.int-fiction
From: neild@acm.rpi.edu (Damien Neil)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tracy and the adventure game
Date: 16 Dec 1998 05:04:52 GMT
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On 16 Dec 1998 01:43:26 GMT, Doeadeer3 <doeadeer3@aol.com> wrote:
>IF IIRC, there is a rape in the game. And I am pretty sure I remember
>correctly.

There is a path which leads to Tracy being raped.

>It may not look like a rape, but it is one. I think the raper was a cop.

This is not correct.  It looks like a rape.  Nobody, anywhere, could
possibly mistake it for anything else.  The rapist comes across as a vile
individual with no redeeming traits whatsoever.  He is not a cop, nor can
I imagine how any person could think he was.

I cannot comprehend the mindset of a person who would think of that scene
as enjoyable.  (Unless you take the approach of killing the rapist, which
I confess to having found quite satisfying.)

>Tracy takes the tack (if she chooses to give in, I forget what the consequences
>are if she doesn't), "if rape is inevitable, lean back and enjoy it" (or at
>least tolerate it).

To quote the game: "Consenting to Jack's advances turns out to count for
very little where survival is concerned."

Once one has entered the car with the rapist, I know of three exits from
the situation: do nothing and be raped and murdered, give in and be raped
and murdered, or kill the rapist.  Which of these is followed depends on
the player.  Tracy certainly didn't decide to give in when I was playing.
The thought never even occurred to me.

>I found this either a trivialization of rape and/or a male fantasy of rape.

I will note in passing that I find the way you use the phrase "male fantasy
of rape" deeply offensive.  It makes me feel that you think that I, because
I am male, fantasize about raping women.  I hope this was not your intent.

Consider this scene from the game:

    Jack has you pinned to the seat, rendering you unable to keep him
    from groping  your breasts, which is intolerable enough, and licking
    your face, which raises the distinct possibility that you'll never
    feel clean again.

What do you think the game's response to "KISS JACK" (or something more
direct) should be, to avoid your considering the game a trivialization
of rape?

I'm honestly interested in your opinion here.

>In case you need to know what trivialization means, issues of fear, physical
>danger, emotional trauma, etc., if IIRC, were either completely side stepped or
>minimalized.

I see fear and emotionional trauma in the above paragraph.  If Tracy doesn't
kill Jack, she dies.  I can't imagine physical danger being more apparant.

>Doe :-X  I will add no more. Bye thread. AC, argue with yourself, you never
>once indicated you HEARD me about anything. It might be a good skill to
>acquire.

I believe you stated before that you never even played the game.  I'm not
entirely certain you have heard what Adam was saying with it.

                         - Damien


From lac@nu-world.com Wed Dec 16 14:16:52 MET 1998
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Subject: Re: Tracy and the adventure game
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This thread definitely demonstrates that people often find what they
are looking for in something they read or see. ( I am the *worst*
offender here -- my kids have always called me a Pollyanna.  For
example, I sang Maxwell's Hammer by the Beatles cheerily for years
without hearing the words.  Heh.)

I played I-O a week or two ahead of interviewing Adam on IFMud for the
IF Writer's Forum.  Since I do not enjoy books or movies that are
explicitly sexuaI, I did not do things that would have elicited those
responses (I had heard "rumors").   However, I did kill the masher guy
immediately, without even thinking twice about it, since that is what
I would have wanted my daughters to do had one of them been in that
same situation. Again, this is me seeing and doing what I wanted to
see and do, and I think it is a credit to the author that I could do
that.  That I could be in charge of my own destiny.

It sounds like I missed many many branches, which is probably true of
all the IF I play.  I do enjoy and even love IF, but I don't have the
luxury of endless time to play all the variant plot branches that
people write.  I missed all the sex and hospital scenes, I think. (I'm
sure reading the source code would be a downer, after all this
discussion.)

My thoughts at the time I was playing were that here is an earnest and
interesting young writer who is trying to put us into the head of a
feisty and resourceful young woman.  I found this admirable (after
all, most of the time I have to play a male in IF).  

Even so, having just shipped the youngest of two very feisty soccer
playing kickboxing belly dancing rugby playing mathematically and
scientifically adept daughters off to college, I felt that the
perspective was not quite on the money.  Tracy's near-miss female
character  indicated only one thing:  the author's lack of long
up-close and personal experience either as a female or with adolescent
females.  Certain subtle nuances, a certain understanding, a certain
sense of self that young women today have.  Maybe it's just that some
of them care so little for males at all!  (Hard to put my finger on,
really, and I probably sound like a flake for saying it, but that was
my hit.)

That said, I have to also say I haven't seen anybody else, male or
female, write such a good female player character (except Amy Briggs.)
There is no one else even in the ballpark with Adam here -- nobody is
trying to do what he's trying to do.   I'm not even sure most people
understand what he's trying to do.  But if you look at the overall
nature of his work so far, and the probable nature of the novel he has
written (just a guess here, I haven't seen it) you will discover
someone who is a seriously feminist writer.

Lelah

 


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Dec 16 15:05:48 MET 1998
Article: 52534 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Z Machine] Indirect Object problems?
Message-ID: <erkyrathF40yx9.Moy@netcom.com>
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neilc@norwich.edu wrote:
> I am confused about some indirect object problems I had while testing
> Inform 6.20. I was getting, "a empty glass" when that had never happened
> to me before with this code. (The objects short name is "empty glass").

> I was all set to report this as a bug in the latest library/compiler, but
> it turned out it only happened while using my version of JZip. Dos-Frotz and
> Dumb-Frotz correctly came up with, "an empty glass."

> I don't understand. Is printing the name of an object an interpreter function?

No, but it does *depend* on a particular interpreter function.

Starting with Inform library, um, 6/something-recent, the library
"magically" determines whether "a" or "an" is the right article. It does
this by printing the object name to an array and checking the first
letter.

*However*, this is not safe unless the interpreter supports nested object
streams -- which is a recent (post-Infocom) addition to Graham's Z-spec.
So the library is careful not to do this unless the interpreter announces
itself as compliant with 1.0 of Graham's Z-spec. If the interpreter
doesn't, the library defaults to "a" in all cases.

Obviously Infocom's interpreters don't announce themselves as
1.0-compliant. 

MaxZip and XZip don't either, because of various unresolved technical
issues -- even though they *do* support nested object streams.

The upshot: always use article properties, even if the library seems to be
magically making it work. It only magically works on some interpreters. If
you add
  with article "an",
it will work on all interpreters.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Thu Dec 17 00:23:24 MET 1998
Article: 52585 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tracy and the adventure game
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:19:02 -0500
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Lelah Conrad wrote:
> This doesn't sound like parody to me.

I think what happened is a bit like what Michael Gentry describes as 
having happened to Little Blue Men: it started out as straight-out 
parody, and grew (slightly) more serious as programming progressed.  And 
I liked the result enough not to go back and make it more consistent.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr


From okblacke@usa.net Thu Dec 17 10:12:19 MET 1998
Article: 52592 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: okblacke@usa.net
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Subject: Re: Tracy and the adventure game
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In article <7548hq$1ele$1@nntp3.u.washington.edu>,
  mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
>
> I didn't find _I-0_ sexist, per se.  I did find it unpleasant,
> despite my appreciation of how well made it is.  The situations are
> archetypal ones I've been taught all my life to fear and loathe--
> at least, the early situations I managed to get into were--and I
> couldn't enjoy them.  For me, being around a rapist and managing
> not to get raped is not a feeling of accomplishment or empowerment:
> it's just horrible, a reminder that this happens, that it's hard
> ever to feel entirely safe or to trust in other peoples' basic decency.
> So I didn't get raped:  but *he tried to rape me*.  Ick.  I was
> looking at him as a person, he was looking at me as an object.  Ick!
> While reminders such as this have their uses, they don't entertain
> me.
>

(The following may contain spoilers.)

I had the *exact* same experience.  In fact, I had to download the cheats
because I couldn't get anywhere without doing the hitchhiking thing and I
didn't like my options there: be murdered, injure the guy, kill the guy.  The
whole scenario seems inappropriate for a "trashy comedy". (I believe those are
Mr. Cadre's words.)

[As it was, I *still* couldn't figure out any way home but hiding in the back
of the truck which I wasn't entirely happy with.  (According to the cheats
you can convince the nature lover or bully the boy selling tapes.)  I tried
waiting for the Taco Junta girl to get off work but apparently died of
exposure before that happened.<g>]

However, I think the argument can be validly made that I-0 *is* sexually
*biased* in the following sense: Computer games, even text adventure games,
are male-dominated and tend to presume male-ness on the part of the main
character, even if that's not explicitly stated.  And some of us have had the
experience of going through a text adventure game to suddenly find a grossly
het-male reference which jars us because it doesn't match our gender or
orientation or attitude (if one is a "sensitive male"<g>).

But in IF, to explicitly state that the protagonist is male does not make a
game sexual.  You can be the warrior, the king, the hero and players will not
try to take your clothes or have sex with every character that walks by
(pornographic IF aside)--or be raped for that matter.  It's primarily when the
protagonist is female that these issues arise.

I actually don't consider I-0 to *have* this sexual bias, but I would say it
clearly *reveals* that bias in the community.  I also consider the game to
reveal it in *artful* manner--"trashy" or not.  That is, I think the author
puts the bias right out there in the open for people to look at without a
heavy-handed evaluation.

Sexism, according to my dictionary, has to do with believing or reflecting a
belief in the superiority of one sex over another. I-0 cannot fairly be said
to reflect any such belief.  And I think it's too easy for someone to see a
portrayal of a gender or a race or a nationality and go "that's an -ism"
rather than, "I don't like it."*  The latter is a simple, private statement,
no defense necessary.  The former is an accusation which carries with it an
implicit condemnation of all those who endorse it (despite protests to the
contrary).

I mean, if I said I thought a work of IF was "Nazi-ist", I should rightfully
expect a "defend or retract" (not to mention flames).  If I said I didn't
think a work of IF accurately depicted Jewish culture as I knew it and so I
couldn't enjoy it, then that's a simple statement of fact. (I might be flamed
but my experience is what it is.)

*Confession: my "sexism" button got pushed briefly during the game when I had
Tracy submit to the rapist and she ended up murdered.  I had a vision of the
character as being better able to defend herself (mace or no) and I much
*prefer* that to the almost dismissive way he dispatches her.  But I can't
call it sexism because (despite my preferences), it's a perfectly valid
observation. I can call it unpleasant or unsatisfying, though.

Pardon my ramblings.  As should be apparent, the topic does punch my
buttons.<g>

[ok]

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From scarlet_herring@yahoo.com Thu Dec 17 10:13:39 MET 1998
Article: 52591 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: scarlet_herring@yahoo.com (Scarlet Herring)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: "Moist" and sexism (was: Tracy and the adventure game)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:24:22 GMT
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Warning: In this post I discuss "Moist", a piece of IF which contains
scenes of an explicit sexual nature. Please skip this post if you feel
uncomfortable reading about such a game (although the content of this
post is certainly not X-rated).

On 15 Dec 1998 16:37:54 PST, "Michael Gentry"
<edromia@concentric.net>,  whilst discussing Adam Cadre's excellent
game "I-0" and and the subject of sexism, wrote:

>Meanwhile, take a game like "Moist", wherein the player is given the option
>of incapacitating a woman with alcohol, shackling her to a table, and anally
>raping her. In this case, the hostility is pretty evident regardless of
>who -- or what -- you've got strapped to the table.

First of all, I personally don't think "I-0" should be compared with
"Moist". "Moist" is a piece of pornography, while "I-0" is an
interactive story. As you may know, the rules for pornography are
different than for stories. "I-0" is meant to be played by a far wider
audience than "Moist", and therefore "I-0" should probably be more
careful with the impressions it leaves with its audience. Not that I
think "I-0" is sexist, but that's beside the point.

I would like to say a little more about this subject concerning
"Moist", if I may. I know this may sound a bit strange, certainly
after the quote from Michael, but I don't think "Moist" is inherently
hostile to women. The purpose of "Moist" is to enable the player to
enact *his own* sexual fantasy (and not specifically the fantasy of
the game's author). "Moist" can be *played* as a hostile, sexist
fantasy, but it doesn't need to be. For instance, the scene above only
appears if the player plays the game that way, but it is certainly not
a necessary scene to get to the end of the game. 

You may argue that "Moist" is pornography and therefore sexist, or
that "Moist" is a male sexual fantasy and therefore sexist, and that
being sexist if equivalent to being hostile to women. While I agree to
the second part, I don't think pornography or male sexual fantasies
are sexist. I know that there are many people who don't agree with
that stand, but I know also a lot of them do, and not only men. 

I think "sexist" can only be actions you perform in real life.
"Fantasy" can never be sexist. Many people fantasize about things they
would never approve of in real life. Many women have rape fantasies
(yes, I've asked), but that doesn't mean that they like to be raped.
Many men have rape fantasies, but that doesn't mean they want to
actually rape.

"Moist" is a pornographic fantasy. I think IF is superbly suitable to
write pornographic fantasies in, and IMHO "Moist" is one of the very
few games which actually succeed in bringing an adequate piece of
erotic IF.

There are three notes I wish to add to the text above:

First, I must admit that in the very first version of "Moist", there
was one scene which was necessary to finish the game, in which you
needed to force a woman to have sex. When a test-player was playing
the game, he was rather amazed at that scene. His exact words were:
"You mean I've got to *rape* her?". At that point, I realized that you
should never force a player to do something that he/she would object
to doing, even in a game, unless you would have explicitly warned
against these things right at the beginning of the game. Since those
players that would object to pornography wouldn't play the game at
all, I simply had to avoid having the remaining players *needing* to
do things they would object to doing, like, for instance, raping an
NPC. So, after that first test, I changed the game so that the game
can be finished completely without the player having to force a woman
to do anything (and I don't mean I have added texts stating that the
woman enjoys being raped - I personally think suggesting that women
like being raped *is* sexist; no, if you want, you can play the game
in a way that the women take the initiative).

Second, I have tried to place the women in the game not as *just*
sexual objects, but I have tried to also provide them with character.
While I admit that the purpose of the women is to have them act in
sexual scenes, I have tried to give each of them a different
personality and a different way of interacting with the player. There
is even the possibilty of something which amounts to a tender love
scene with one of the women. You may argue that this is just a small
part of the game in relation to the sex, but that's because the aim of
the game is sex. And, of course, I thought it would make the sex more
interesting (otherwise, I could have just limited myself to
programming one woman and copy her three times - the rubber doll
idea).

Third, although I stated above that I wanted the player to be able to
enact his own sexual fantasy, I realize, of course, that this would be
an exclusively male sexual fantasy. That is one of the warnings the
game gives at the start. But it really surprised me when I found that
I got some fan mail about "Moist" from women. True, that amounts to no
more than about 10% of the mail I got, but it told me that "Moist" was
not *by definition* offensive to women. Which only underlines Adam's
point that you can't generalize about a group of 2.9 billion human
beings.

-------------------------
Scarlet Herring
scarlet_herring@yahoo.com


From dmacron@hector.asc.upenn.edu Thu Dec 17 10:50:23 MET 1998
Article: 52583 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: dmacron@hector.asc.upenn.edu (Donald Macron)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tracy and the adventure game
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:47:33 GMT
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J. Robinson Wheeler (wheeler@jump.net) wrote:
: Donald Macron wrote:

: It's just her opinion.  How could it be wrong? 

If its you're opinion, I can have the opinion that you're wrong.  You can
think that certain races/genders/ethnic groups are inferior to your own.
I can think you're wrong.  You can think the President of the United
States should be removed from office, and I can think you're wrong.

: Why is everyone investing
: so much energy in trying to change her mind?

I don't want her to change her mind.  I'm just not comfortable with anyone
saying we can't refute their statements, or proclaim our own views.

: What's it to everyone if
: she continues not to like I-0?

She can do whatever she pleases.  I think she's pretty far off-base, and
that some of her assertions are misguided.  I feel that, in the interests
of dialogue, dissenters should be heard.  If we disagree with something
that someone says, based on what we believe to be a clear
misunderstanding, I feel that elaboration of both sides can only help.

I don't like the sense that there is an attempt to "put the brakes" on
this, because someone feels like they are maintaining an indefensible
position.

: I thought she was merely trying to refrain from participating further
: herself, not squash other people.

I did not get that sense.

: > Welcome to usenet, wherein everything can be discussed, and no one tells
: > anyone when its time to shut up.

: People tell each other that all the time, often with good reason.

Indeed.  I suppose that when we actually have to *assent* to that command
that it is time to worry.



From adamc@acpub.duke.edu Thu Dec 17 11:13:34 MET 1998
Article: 52633 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@acpub.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tracy and the adventure game
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:12:43 -0500
Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA
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Charles Gerlach wrote:
> "Your breasts are once again out of sight, if not out of mind."
> 
> Whose mind?

The mind of the same people they're out of sight of.  Other characters in 
the game.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Anaheim, CA
 http://www.retina.net/~grignr


From okblacke@usa.net Fri Dec 18 10:49:52 MET 1998
Article: 52791 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: okblacke@usa.net
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Tracy and the adventure game
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:56:38 GMT
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In article <36768812.7F1C@merle.acns.nwu.edu>,
  Charles Gerlach <cagerlac@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> Doeadeer3 wrote:
>
> I'm gonna side with Doe on this one. Once discussion came out
> about the ability to play Tracy like a slut, I must admit that
> my curiousity got the better of me. While doing so, I found this
> particular phrase to be prurient and out of character:
>
> "Your breasts are once again out of sight, if not out of mind."
>
> Whose mind? The Narrator's? Tracy's? Mine? When I put my clothes
> on, I don't find myself thinking about my genitalia. I sincerely
> doubt that even slutty women go about thinking about their own
> breasts.
>
> So, unless the omniscient narrator is a pervy 13 year old (and
> that's a pretty frightening thought), then the implication of
> that sentence seems to be that the player of the game is still
> thinking about Tracy's breasts.

On the contrary: Tracy's in a bind and has to use every resource the player's
morals will allow to survive and get home.  If you've taken off her shirt,
you've already defined her character (to an extent) by that action.  You've
said, "I, playing Tracy, am willing to get naked if it helps me get what I
want." Note that there is *no* discrete place for her to take off her shirt so
the characterization is just.

The idea that a person like the character you've just defined *wouldn't* be
acutely aware of how she could use her body--including the breasts she just
covered up--is schizophrenic.

Part of the artistry of I-0 is that the content is more or less prurient as a
reflection of you.  If you went through playing Tracy as a slut "just to see"
but had no personal investment in that kind of character development, you
shouldn't expect that variation of the text to speak to you, don't you agree?

> I think that this phrase alone goes a *long* way towards having
> the player of the game objectify Tracy. It was this phrase that
> made me hypothesize that Adam was in his late teens, at best.

Hey, YMMV, right?

[ok]

P.S. Anyone know of any *other* IF game this short that generates this must
conversation?

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From garethr@cre.canon.co.uk Tue Dec 22 13:10:11 MET 1998
Article: 53157 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Gareth Rees <garethr@cre.canon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Inform] Virtual Rooms
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:53157

Irene Callaci <icallaci@csupomona.edu> wrote:
> I have a long corridor with rooms on both sides. To save space, I'm
> using just two actual room objects for the 20 rooms in this
> hallway. The rooms on each side of the hallway are all identical,
> except for the room numbers. As the player walks up the hallway, the
> room numbers increment. When the player turns around and walks back
> down the hallway, the room numbers decrement. That all works great.
> 
> The problem is that the player can't ENTER ROOM 112 or GO IN ROOM 127,
> even if he or she is standing right outside the door. The rooms don't
> know what room number they should respond to, and I can't list every
> possible room number in the object's name property (for reasons which
> I won't go into here).

Constant Story "HILBERT'S HOTEL";
Constant Headline "^or, the Infinite Inn^";

Include "Parser";
Include "Verblib";
Include "Grammar";

Class   CorridorDoor
 has    door static openable
 with   describe [; rtrue; ],
        short_name [;
          print "door to room ", self.room_number();
          rtrue;
        ],
        parse_name [ i n w r;
          r = self.room_number();
          for (::++i) {
            n = TryNumber(wn);
            w = NextWordStopped();
            if (w ~= 'door' or 'room' && n ~= r) return i;
          }
        ];

Class   CorridorRoom
 has    light
 with   short_name [;
          print "Room ", self.room_number(); rtrue;
        ];

Object  Corridor "Corridor"
 has    light
 with   number 0,
        floor_number 1,
        even_room [;
          return (self.floor_number - 1) * 100 + (self.number * 2);
        ],
        odd_room [;
          return (self.floor_number - 1) * 100 + (self.number * 2 + 1);
        ],
        description [;
          print "A long corridor runs ";
          switch (self.number) {
            0: print "south";
            49: print "north";
            default: print "north-south";
          }
          print ". To the east is room ", self.even_room(),
            " and to the west is room ", self.odd_room();
          if (self.number == 0) {
            print ". Stairs run up";
            if (self.floor_number > 1) print " and down";
          }
          ".";
        ],
        e_to EastDoor,
        w_to WestDoor,
        erase_traces [;
          give WestDoor ~open;
          give EastDoor ~open;
          give self ~visited;
        ],
        n_to [;
          if (self.number <= 0) "You can't go any further.";
          self.number --;
          self.erase_traces();
          return self;
        ],
        s_to [;
          if (self.number >= 49) "You can't go any further.";
          self.number ++;
          self.erase_traces();
          return self;
        ],
        d_to [;
          if (self.number ~= 0) rfalse;
          if (self.floor_number <= 1) "You are on the ground floor already.";
          self.floor_number --;
          self.erase_traces();
          return self;
        ],
        u_to [;
          if (self.number ~= 0) rfalse;
          self.floor_number ++;
          self.erase_traces();
          return self;
        ];

Object  -> WestDoor
 class  CorridorDoor
 with   door_dir w_to,
        door_to WestRoom,
        room_number [; return Corridor.odd_room(); ];

Object  -> EastDoor
 class  CorridorDoor
 with   door_dir e_to,
        door_to EastRoom,
        room_number [; return Corridor.even_room(); ];

Object  WestRoom
 class  CorridorRoom
 with   e_to Corridor,
        room_number [; return Corridor.odd_room(); ];

Object  EastRoom
 class  CorridorRoom
 with   w_to Corridor,
        room_number [; return Corridor.even_room(); ];

[ Initialise;
  print "^^^^^";
  location = Corridor;
];

-- 
Gareth Rees


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Dec 23 09:47:06 MET 1998
Article: 53245 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: TADS vs Inform: Which supports more Lisp?
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Jesse McGrew (jmcgrew-at-cris-dot-com@guess.org) wrote:
> In rec.arts.int-fiction David Glasser <glasser@DELETEuscom.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> : Inform lets you do complicated things like write Tetris, Befunged, and
> : LISP (which would be difficultin TADS); TADS has far superior list and
> : string handling than Inform; etc.

> Actually, wouldn't a Lisp interpreter probably be easier to do in TADS?
> Looking over Andrew Plotkin's code I see that a large amount of it is for
> managing memory, which is basically a non-issue in TADS. And Lisp relies on
> lists a lot, which TADS is great at.

I don't know enough TADS to say for sure, but I don't think it would be
particularly easier. Lisp lists have some slightly wacky semantics, based
on the fact that they're *really* binary trees, which just usually slant
to the right. So, for example, finding the tail of a list (the same list
minus its first element) is a constant-time operation, and doesn't involve
allocating anything new -- you just return a reference to the right
subtree. Are TADS lists organized this way?

Could you have to implement Lisp cons cells (objects) as TADS objects, or
as memory in the TADS user heap, or either? I can see possible tradeoffs
either way. The user heap is limited to 64K (sound familiar? :-); TADS
native objects are pretty complicated beasts.

The other trick is parsing. In the Lisp part of Lists, I pitched the
Inform library parser entirely, and wrote my own code to deal with the raw
characters. 

(Sorry to spend all this verbiage on a system I don't even know. Heh.
You've got my source code, which says everything I have to say about Lisp
in Inform.)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Dec 31 10:39:06 CET 1998
Article: 53468 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Inform] very short assembly thingy
Message-ID: <erkyrathF4sIy6.MsL@netcom.com>
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pizzachu@excite.com_x wrote:

> BTW, anyone else write in z-machine assembly?  I would love to get a
> better assembler since Inform adds a bunch of extra stuff that I don't
> need/want (all attributes are named, a bunch of non-game text is included,
> and it always compiles in it's own "main" routine for some reason, all
> together adding to the bulk of the games).
>
> [ main i x y w h c colour;
> ...

Actually, one reason Inform compiles it own main routine is that you can't
put local variables in the Z-machine's top-level function. So for your
program, you'd have to define a secondary function anyway.

The other reasons are that the top-level function must be in the bottom
64K of memory (unlike most routines, which can be anywhere). And it is
illegal to return from it; you must @quit to exit.

Rather than entrusting the user with maintaining those guarantees (which
the user may not know about), Inform just compiles its first function as

[ Main__; main(); @quit; ];

Thus, all the problems go away, and you can't write an illegal program --
at least not that way. And it's hardly a significant waste of space --
maybe a dozen bytes.

The other extra stuff you mention is more noticeable.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Jan  7 12:41:36 CET 1999
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: following someone, without getting caught
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Jacob Munkhammar (jacob@stud.ntnu.no) wrote:

> I haven't decided if I agree completely with this. In a way I think that a
> simple 'GO' command (like 'E') should be as unreflected as just typing it.
> But then I agree that the game should understand the player's intentions -
> when they are obvious. (Are they in this case?)

A shadow hulks down the passage.

That phrase you've heard... "cold sweat". Not just an expression, then. A
troll is *big*, and nothing of clumsy; those heavy knotted limbs move
quick and strong. And silent. And maybe those fragments underfoot are
shards of an elvish sword, or more than one...

> But that is really a digression from the intentions of my question, which
> isn't really about the spelling of the verb.  ;)
>
> After having sneaked east (ex- or implicitly) to where the troll is, I am
> *in the very same location* as the troll. Am I invisible? For how long?
>
> I mean, in a technical way. And in a generally applicable way (think
> automatic handling or library routine).

I don't hold with automatic handling of NPCs. :-) I'd probably have
"doesn't see you" flag on the monster; it's true by default, and only
becomes false if you do something stupid (shout, or try to pass it, or
stay still when it turns around and comes up the passage.) (The latter
possibilities require more work, since you effectively have to store
whether the player is hiding west or east, or maybe which way the monster
is facing. Which will be easier depends on the game.)

> Also, the intelligence you suggest assumes that the game understands that
> I follow the troll, not just happen to go the same direction.

Sure. That's what I mean by being generous.

> If for
> example I sneak (ex- or implicitly) from an empty room to a room where the
> troll turns out to already be, does it see me then?

You enter, and immediately dodge behind a rock. Or else you hear (smell)
the troll down the passage, and don't enter at all. (The latter is rather
a nuisance in Inform, but it can be done.)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From okblacke@usa.net Thu Jan  7 15:23:24 CET 1999
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From: okblacke@usa.net
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Subject: Re: following someone, without getting caught
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In article <jacob-0601990224150001@ti29a96-0089.dialup.online.no>,
  jacob@stud.ntnu.no (Jacob Munkhammar) wrote:
>
> In a universe of discrete locations, has anyone managed to solve this,
> practically or theoretically - or has ideas for its sollution?
>

I envision a scenario like this:

Damp grotto.
There is a troll here picking his teeth with a shin bone.
> FOLLOW TROLL
The troll moves east.
You follow the troll.

Catacombs.
The troll tosses the bone aside casually and scratches at the dirt, as if
looking for something.
You are following the troll.
> Z
The troll digs into the dirt a little deeper.
You are following the troll.
> Z
The troll finds a shiny coin buried in the dirt. It bites it and then tosses
the mangled metal to the side.
You are following the troll.
> Z
The troll moves east.
You follow the troll.

Troll's lair.
The troll curls up for a nap on his bed of stones.
You are following the troll.
[etc]

"Follow" becomes a verb that causes the character (PC or NPC) to use a turn to
move in the same direction as the thing being followed. Your specific game can
consider the Troll to be a thing which is followed stealthily and add a
"hidden" attribute to a player who follows the troll unless, say, the player
has The Trollslayer(TM) patented toothpick or whatever. (Even then it could be
advantageous to wait until the troll is asleep to attack.  But I digress.)

Doing something other than just "Z" in-between turns would run the risk of
blowing the "hidden" characteristic and alerting the troll to the player's
presence--but this is a separate issue from follow.

You could have a game called, say, "My Life As A Dog" which used the same
mechanism:

The back yard.
Your master exits the house from the back door.
> FOLLOW MASTER
You're following your master.
Your master stands there looking up at the sky.
> PEE ON TREE

You relieve yourself on the giant, majestic oak tree planted by your master's
great, great grandfather. Your master says, "Welp.  I guess we'd better move
some food into the shelter."

> DIG UP FLOWERS
You dig up your mistresses petunias. For some reason, your master doesn't seem
to care.
Your master enters the shelter.
You follow your master.

The shelter. The shelves are stocked with cans of dog food. (All cans are
cans of dog food.) Your master scowls and exits the shelter. You follow your
master.

The back yard.
Your master opens the back gate.
> SNIFF CROTCH
You sniff your crotch.  Yep, smells okay.
Your master exits the yard and closes the gate.
You try to follow your master, but the gate bars your way.

So, two different situations, both using "follow".  The issue of stealth is a
different question, just like the question of whether or not it is *possible*
for the character to follow the NPC everywhere.

"Follow" is a good idea because it allows the player to express his
intention--it even has merit if the following is not automatic, like:

> FOLLOW MASTER
Your master moves south to the back 40.
> RUN IN CIRCLES
You run in circles. (Your master has moved south.)
> CHASE TAIL
You chase your tail. (Your master has moved south.)
> SOUTH
You're in the back 40.  (Your master is not here.)
> SNIFF
You smell your master to the east, in the ravine.
(Your master is to the east.)
> EAST

There's a lot of room for improvement in this general area of IF.  How many
times has *this* happened to you?

> THROW SPEAR AT TROLL
The troll catches the spear deftly, then thanks you.
> KILL TROLL
Well, that would be pretty foolish, considering he has the spear.

But, if you could say:

> KILL TROLL
OK.  You want to kill the troll.  But how?
> THROW SPEAR AT TROLL
You launch your spear fiercely at the troll in an attempt to kill it, but the
weapon bounces harmlessly off his head.
> THROW WATER AT TROLL
Forgetting that it's witches (and not trolls) that are killed by water, you
throw your bucket of water on the troll.  The troll laughs and says, "Oh! What
a world! What a world!"
> THROW HOLY NUCLEAR HAND GRENADE AT TROLL
Oh, now *that* has possiblities.
[etc.]

[ok]

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From dbs@cs.wisc.edu Thu Jan  7 17:18:50 CET 1999
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From: dbs@cs.wisc.edu (Dan Shiovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Game/story ideas
Date: 7 Jan 1999 03:27:51 GMT
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In article <770sqr$inn@chronicle.concentric.net>,
Michael Gentry <edromia@concentric.net> wrote:
>I'd love to see someone do a game based on the British TV series "The
>Prisoner." It would have to be chock full of long, intricate red herrings --

Zarf's Prisoner story would probably be of interest. Hopefully he
doesn't mind the repost:

[begin repost]

>From  ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu Sun Nov 27 13:57:35 PST 1994

(SPOILERS for The Prisoner, in case anyone is worried about a
ten-year-old game that doesn't run on any machine produced today :-)

Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.int-fiction: 23-Nov-94 Re: Name this
game! Fred Sloniker@u.washingt (1912)

> So what were some of the ways the game tried to trick you into typing that
> number in?  If that was the only way to lose, you'll have to pardon my 90's
> skepticism about how readily you could be persuaded to do what you've been
> told will end the game...

Ok, let's see...

When the game starts, it shows you your resignation code (789, for the
purposes of this post.) It tells you that if you reveal it, you lose.
Then it says "where would you like to go?" (now that you've resigned)
and gives a list of six or eight cities.

When you start to type the name of a city, you get three letters in and
the screen goes white. Nightie-night.

You "wake up" in a little maze. You are represented (here and always in
the game) by a # sign. (Heh.) When you get out, you see...

"Good morning. Who are you?
1. !
2. #
3. ?
4. 789
5. @"

If you type 4, you lose. 1, 3, or 5 just says "wrong". 2 is the right answer. 

This is small potatoes, of course, but it gives you some idea of the
flavor of the game. By the way, there are several ways to "pass out" or
"be captured" in the game; this is not losing, but it takes some time,
costs points, and forces you to start over in the maze. And it's always
possible to *force* this to happen (thus getting out of any given
situation, albeit at a cost) by typing ctrl-C.

Let's see. There are twenty buildings on the Island, each with a
different little scenario or puzzle. One of the puzzles is a memory
game; it flashes sequences of digits on the screen, and you have to type
them back in. The sequences get longer. One time out of a hundred, the
sequence is "789"...

There's a rebel underground which you can contact. Eventually, after
you've helped them in several plots against the Island, they need your
resignation code for something. "Well," you think, "they're not the
people I'm trying to keep it secret from..." 

There's a bank. 99% of the time, when you go in, there's a teller and
you do normal bank things. 1% of the time, you go in and the teller
seems to be gone; there's just a bank vault with a three-digit
combination lock. No random number that you try works. You know it's a
stupid idea to try 789, but it's the only thing you can do other than
walk away...

One of the first things you run into is an info kiosk. When try to do
anything serious (like check your bank balance), it asks for your ID
number. If you type 789, you lose. There's an information command
elsewhere which tells you your ID number (a five-digit code), but
throughout the game people ask you for your ID, and if you slip and type
in 789 instead, you lose.

There's a torture room where you suddenly take the part of a torturer
extracting information from #. There's a heart-rate monitor and you can
issue electric zaps (while an experimenter assures you that he takes
full responsibility -- sound familiar?) Eventually # starts giving
three-digit numbers. You can "accept" them, but (since they're not 789)
the experimenter always says "that's not the truth." Eventually, after
you've performed more torture -- and this is not easy, since the patient
tends to pass out -- # says "789". If you "accept" that, you lose. 

Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.int-fiction: 23-Nov-94 Re: Name this
game! Fred Sloniker@u.washingt (1912)

> >particular, a lot of the assumptions that they zinged you with were
> >specific to the Apple II series. Without that background, it would lose
> >some of its impact. 

> Like what?  Did it make you think the game had crashed at some point or
> something?  (:3

In fact, yes. In the Hospital, there's a psychology test. In the middle
of it, you see

?SYNTAX ERROR in 789
]_
...in other words, the standard Applesoft BASIC prompt. If you type
] LIST 789
(the obvious thing to do when a BASIC program has a bug) you lose.

Let me give some other examples of how horrible this game is.

There are *many* things (like the torture scenario) where finishing a
puzzle or figuring out an action *lowers* your score, rather than
increasing it. Or gets you captured, or something. Sometimes it raises
your score *and* gets you captured. The only guiding rule is that acting
in ways that assert your individuality and freedom will increase your
score; cooperating with the warders will decrease it. 

There's another psych test. The border of the screen starts to flash,
the game starts beeping continuously, and it says "position your fingers
on the following keys: asdf jkl;". If you hit a key, the flashing border
gets thicker (moves inward). You hit another key, and it moves inward
again. Aha! you just have to get it all the way in. You hit another key;
it moves in. You hit another key -- this time it moves out. Huh? You hit
another key, and it moves in again. Again: out. Again: out. Eventually,
you're pounding on the keyboard, the border has moved all the way back
out, and it's still beeping and flashing and beeping and flashing and
beeping... The only thing you can do is hit ctrl-C and pass out.
*Much* later, after cheating (more on that later) I figured out the
secret. The border moves in if you've waited at least two seconds before
hitting the key. That's all. If it gets all the way in, you get a lot of
points. And I never figured it out.

If your score gets high enough, you start to see gates out of the
compound you're in. If your score gets higher yet, you can go out
through the gates. You can run across the landscape, pursued by a O
(rover). You can get to a railway station. I think it refuses to give
you a ticket until you type in your resignation code. (I don't really
remember, but I know that this method of "escaping" didn't really help
much, except to further increase your score.)

There are various clues you get -- phrases which people repeat to you,
more and more often as your score increases. "The key to escape is the
key to escape" is a popular one. (Yes, hitting the Escape key will get
you out of the initial maze, and certain other parts of the game.) 

After many trials and tribulations, you get the clue: "escape C escape C
escape B escape B -> -> -> ->". Huh? Well, escape-C is the Apple code to
move the cursor up one line, and escape-B moves it right. (I probably
have that slightly wrong -- sorry.) And in a certain situation, you see
the following:

  [wt]
_

Remember that on the original Apple II keyboard, there were no
square-bracket keys! So if you type that sequence of keys, it enables
you to effectively enter the string "[wt]" at the prompt, which you
could not have typed otherwise. Naturally, this is necessary later in
the game as well.

Ok, you want to hear the worst one? 

Like I said, you can find this group of rebels. You can do tasks for
them. This increases your score a lot. But I found that when I finished
the third or fourth task, they refused to acknowledge it. Not only
couldn't I get the points, I couldn't get any more tasks. 

After a while (I was stuck elsewhere in the game as well), I gave up. I
started looking at the code. (Since it was all in BASIC, it's easy --
load the program and list.) And what I found was, there was a bug. The
line to check that particular task's completion had a typo.

To this day, I am convinced that the authors put that in deliberately.
The player is *intended* to cheat and look at the code. You *can* win
without fixing the bug, but without the rebels for a source of points,
it's much harder. 

I fixed it. Then I looked at all the rest of the code, and felt
perfectly justified in it. I didn't even bother playing the rest of the
game; I just edited my save file to go to the about-to-win spot and
started up there. I think the authors would have approved.

--Z

(I don't even need to mention the line "Congratulations! You have proved
your individuality and escaped from the Island. Please enter your
resignation code to compute your final score." Do I?)

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."

[end repost]

-- 
Dan Shiovitz || dbs@cs.wisc.edu || http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~dbs 
"...Incensed by some crack he had made about modern enlightened
thought, modern enlightened thought being practically a personal buddy
of hers, Florence gave him the swift heave-ho and--much against my
will, but she seemed to wish it--became betrothed to me." - PGW, J.a.t.F.S. 


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Jan  7 20:12:23 CET 1999
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Gunther Schmidl (sothoth@usa.net) wrote:
> >[Prisoner game]
> >Sounds to me like they were really creative with this,
> >in spite of the obvious... stupidity.
> >
> >Ever consider porting it?  Say, to the z-machine?

> We'd have to get our hands on the code for that, no?

It was written in Applesoft BASIC. That's how I was able to hack it. (With
several machine-language add-ons, but those mostly had to do with
beeping.)

A lot of the tricks were specific to the Apple 2. (A few were *really*
specific to the Apple 2... didn't make sense on the 2+ or 2e. Heh.) The
job would involve a lot of creative translation, as it were.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From miron@comports.com Fri Jan  8 15:56:43 CET 1999
Article: 53640 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "Miron Schmidt" <miron@comports.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Game/story ideas
Date: 6 Jan 99 12:14:43 +0100
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LucFrench <lucfrench@aol.com> wrote:
> Real People, Non IF Related:
> -----
> Bill Gates
> Gary Larson
> Any of the Great Philosphers
> Franz Kafka
> H.P. Lovecraft

Well, here's how far I got with Edgar Allan Poe for the Chicken Comp entry I
obviously didn't finish. (It was to be named, _A Diamond, Edgar Allan Poe,
and a Couple Chickens_.)

Object -> Edgar "Edgar Allan Poe"
  with
    description "Oh dear. He's so profoundly sloshed that you better remember
      him the way he's described elsewhere.",
    describe "^Edgar Allan Poe is here.",
    name 'edgar' 'allan' 'poe' 'poet' 'man',
    each_turn [;
      if (random(10)<6)  rtrue;
      print "^";
      print_ret (string) random(
        "~Oh Lenore, Lenore,~ Edgar mumbles.",
        "Edgar starts to sing, ~Sur le pont d'avignon, dam dam daa daa, dam
          dam, ehh. Hee hee. D'avignon, hm, hm.~ He notices you and
          shuts up.",
        "~Whicky!~ Edgar shouts.",
        "~Wishy!~ Edgar shouts.",
        "Edgar shouts something incomprehensible.",
        "~Mumblefrotz,~ Edgar reasons.",
        "Edgar tries to count his fingers.",
        "Edgar blinks repeatedly, solemnly raises a finger, and then lowers
        it again.",
        "~I, my friend,~ Edgar tells you confidently, ~am gonna be buried
          alive. Heh.~",
        "Edgar says, ~If it weren't for that god-awful cat...~",
        "Edgar puffs his opium pipe and coughs himself into a giggling fit."
      );
    ],
  has proper animate male;

(Oh, and here's the premise:

[ Initialise i;
  print "^^^^^^^^^^^^^^[Press any key to start.]^";
  box
    "~Then this speckled bird beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,"
    "By the weird and wild decorum of the countenance it wore,"
    "'Though thy beak be bleak and bricken, thou,' I said,"
    "                                         'art surely chicken,"
    "Goofy-gay and silly Chicken wandering from the other side"
    "Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Moloch's other side!'"
    "        Quoth the Chicken, 'Iodide!'"
    "                             -- Edgar Allan Poe (paraphrased)";
  @read_char 1 0 0 -> i;
  location = Annabells;
  print "^^^Another frantic day with Edgar, who seems to feel compelled to
    drink every glass of whisky in the world, who smokes opium from his
    long, thin pipe as if there were a shortage coming, and who is so
    absurdly depressed all the time that no-one notices anymore.^",
    (b_style) "^    Type ~help~ for information and general help.", "^^^";
];

)

Well, you get the idea.

--
Miron Schmidt <miron@comports.com>                       PGP key on request

WATCH TV... MARRY AND REPRODUCE... OBEY... PLAY INTERACTIVE FICTION...



From erkyrath@netcom.com Mon Jan 11 20:58:11 CET 1999
Article: 53815 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [INFORM] Accessing strings-as-properties? Please?
Message-ID: <erkyrathF5Ep4L.LMq@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
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Michael Baum (michael.baum@nist.gov) wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:09:46 GMT, erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
> wrote:

> >All you can do with a Z-machine string is print it to the screen, or print
> >it to memory (using the print_to_array method) (which makes use of the
> >@output_stream 3 opcode.) 
> >
> >If you want to look at individual characters of a string, you need to use
> >print_to_array. See docs.

> But not so a string stored as a global variable;

> Array diatribe string "Gad! How confusing!";

An array isn't a global variable. That line produces a byte array
initialized from the given character sequence. It's very much the
exception.

Global glob = "Gad! How confusing!";
Constant cons = "Gad! How confusing!";

These are both references to (compressed, hi-mem) strings.

Note that you can do

print (string) glob;
print (string) cons;

But you can't do

print (string) diatribe; /* wrong */

If you want to print a character array, you have to print it one character
at a time (or use a routine that does so.) The Z-machine string-printing
routines expect z-strings.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Jan 13 17:28:23 CET 1999
Article: 53839 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [INFORM] Removing unwanted verbs
Message-ID: <erkyrathF5FIHu.AqH@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:53839

J. Kerr (bywater@zetnet.co.uk) wrote:
> I have a feeling that this is a really, really dumb question, but here
> goes ...

> What is the best way to remove a standard verb (i.e. so that it gets
> the "That's not a verb I recognise" treatment from the parser)?

I once asked Graham to implement "Extend remove", but I forget if he ever
did it.

I just do:

[ RestOfLine w;
  while (w ~= -1) {
    w = NextWordStopped();
  }
  wn--;
  return 0;
];

[ NoSuchVerbSub;
  L__M(##Miscellany, 38);
  rtrue;
];

Extend 'score' replace
  * RestOfLine  -> NoSuchVerb;

This doesn't remove *every* trace of the verb -- a dedicated library
hacker could tell it's still there, if he cared -- but I don't know
offhand how, because I don't.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Thu Jan 14 12:51:06 CET 1999
Article: 53868 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Turing Machines and Naked Emperors
Date: 12 Jan 1999 21:46:23 +0100
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mkimball@xmission.com wrote:
>Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>> To sharpen my assertion: Andrew's table doesn't exist, not because
>> nobody has put in the "gruntwork" to produce it, but because it's
>> theoretically impossible to compute it (given Church-Turing's thesis,
>> of course), at least for sufficiently large N.

(Note: as I've already explained, my critique of Andrew's proof was
based on a misunderstanding, and the table *does* exist in the
non-constructive (just as the 10^100th digit of pi exists, even though
nobody has computed it). However, the fact that there's no way of
computing the table "from scratch" for large N is true).

>What is interesting to me is that when Andrew posted that original
>statement, I found myself in total agreement with him.  


I think both you and I misunderstood him a little - he didn't really
mean that the table could be computed.

>I thought,
>"sure, if you had a human compute that table, then you could store it
>and use it as a lookup".  I totally bought the suggestion that, given
>enough time, a human could compute the table.  Now, I'm not so sure.
>If humans can compute it, but a Turing machine can't compute it
>without a lookup table, then that implies that strong AI is impossible
>on Turning machines, no?  Or am I confused?  

You're not confused; you're simply underestimating the difficulty of
the halting problem. The halting problem is quite simply extremely
hard (impossibly hard for computers, and - given the Church-Turin
thesis, see below - for humans, too).  Even very simple algorithms can
exhibit exceedingly complex behaviour - think of the Mandelbrot set,
which is generated by just a few lines of code, or the Game of Life,
or the universal Turing machine simulator which can be coded in very
few lines of Basic, or why not the following little C function:

void hailstone(unsigned i)
{
    while (i > 1) 
        if (i % 2 == 0) i = i / 2; else i = i * 3 + 1;
}

- does this function terminate (i.e. return) for every value of i
(given that the computer calculates with infinite precision)?
Mathematicians have been studying this function for 20 years or so,
and still nobody knows. 


Turing invented the Turing machine because he wanted to give a
mathematically stringent formulation of what it meant that a problem
is solvable. It's a formalization of the way humans solve mathematical
problems. As an example, if you asked me how I were to calculate the
square root of 2 with pencil and paper, I'd probably break down the
operations into a set of simple rules - an algorithm, similar to a
computer program. The Turing machine is a particularly simple
"computer" that can execute such algorithms. (Turing did his work in
the 1930's, before there were computers, which is why his machine is
rather unlike modern computers). 

Church-Turing's thesis (Church was another pioneer of algorithm
theory) says that the Turing machine is a universal computer, that is
that any function that can be computed (by human or machine), can be
computed by a Turing machine. This can't really be proved, but it can
be disproved - just find a way of computing non-computable functions
in your head, for example, and (that's the hard part) prove that it
works. So far, nobody has been able to disprove it, and it's generally
accepted as an axiom - which is the basis for the definition of
"computability".

A stronger extension of the thesis is that *all* human thought
processes can be simulated by a computer - the strong AI hypothesis.
This is of course much more controversial.

But even with only the weakest form of the Church-Turing thesis, it
follows that there's no way for a human to solve the general halting
problem.

>But, is the halting
>problem of a finite program with finite input equivalent to the
>general case halting problem?  (I'm sorry, its been a few years since
>my computational theory course.  Maybe those restrictions *were* in
>the original halting problem).

The original halting problem is for arbitrarily long programs with no
input (because if you have a program + input, you can construct a new
ad hoc program without input which first generates the original input
and then passes it to the original program). 

>My god, one of those emperors has no clothes, but I'm not sure which
>yet.

In this case, I think the unclad emperor is the "common sense" which
seems to tell most programmers that they can solve the halting problem
by inspection, or at most some trivial analysis. I think this "common
sense" derives from experience with real-world programs: programmers
are (fortunately!) taught to write programs which are easy to analyze
and where it's usually fairly easy to spot infinite loops. But those
programs form a very tiny subset of the set of *all* programs.
-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu Thu Jan 14 22:17:30 CET 1999
Article: 53948 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu (Ethan Dicks)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Glk] Interesting bug/easter egg in Glk Dungeon
Date: 14 Jan 1999 18:19:07 GMT
Organization: Department of Mathematics, The Ohio State University
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In article <erkyrathF5It9K.104@netcom.com>,
Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:
>Andrew Plotkin (erkyrath@netcom.com) wrote:
>> Ethan Dicks (dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu) wrote:
>
>> > While debugging Zdungeon, I ran across a similar problem in the Glk
>> > implementation of Dungeon.  Try going over the falls in the raft
>> > while in superbrief mode.  Welcome to "Moby Lossage".
>> >
>> > I know why this is, and it appears to be most pernicious.
>
>> I don't know if you can really use "pernicious" for a display bug in an
>> old text game. :) But yes, your analysis sounds right.

I used "pernicious" because I'm down in the guts of "ROOM_INFO()" and
can't see a way to make it go away without adding a special, one-time
test for something unique like FCHMP (the room symbol in the code).  I
hate coding in specialty tests for one-off conditions.  I'd rather have
a "classful" test.

It is a persistent bug with no graceful work around that has survived twenty
years of bug fixing and expressed in at least five different base languages
for the source code.  Is that not pernicious?

>> So this is really a bug in the original Dungeon code, right?
>
>...probably exacerbated by the status line I added, which always shows the
>current location name.

Yes; that's the key, the additional information you and I added in our own
ports of the original.  There has always been this transition through "Moby
Lossage", but the user didn't know it.

-ethan




-- 
Ethan Dicks                                      http://www.infinet.com/~erd/
(dicks) at (math) . (ohio-state) . (edu)       sellto: postmaster@[127.0.0.1]

harvestbot fodder: president@whitehouse.gov fccinfo@fcc.gov root@[127.0.0.1]


From dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu Thu Jan 14 23:19:12 CET 1999
Article: 53933 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!not-for-mail
From: dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu (Ethan Dicks)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: [Glk] Interesting bug/easter egg in Glk Dungeon
Date: 13 Jan 1999 18:21:52 GMT
Organization: Department of Mathematics, The Ohio State University
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:53933


While debugging Zdungeon, I ran across a similar problem in the Glk
implementation of Dungeon.  Try going over the falls in the raft
while in superbrief mode.  Welcome to "Moby Lossage".

I know why this is, and it appears to be most pernicious.  The exit
>from  the last river room is indeed "Moby Lossage".  In the original
code, room names were never printed above the descriptions; that
came later with Zork I.  Additionally, the code to check for "over the 
falls in a raft" is attached to the room description.  If you are in
superbrief mode (or potententially are in brief mode, but have been to 
Moby Lossage before), the room description isn't printed, only the
room name and contents.  You don't die until you've been in the Moby
Lossage room for long enough to look around.

Running the 500 point version of Zork on a PDP-10 clone gives the "Moby
lossage" message and the room contents if in superbrief mode, but not
in verbose mode.  In verbose mode, things look pretty normal.

Just an interesting detail on the road to debugging Zdungeon.

-ethan


-- 
Ethan Dicks                                      http://www.infinet.com/~erd/
(dicks) at (math) . (ohio-state) . (edu)       sellto: postmaster@[127.0.0.1]

harvestbot fodder: president@whitehouse.gov fccinfo@fcc.gov root@[127.0.0.1]


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Jan 14 23:19:18 CET 1999
Article: 53907 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!netnews.com!ix.netcom.com!erkyrath
From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Glk] Interesting bug/easter egg in Glk Dungeon
Message-ID: <erkyrathF5It9K.104@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:53907

Andrew Plotkin (erkyrath@netcom.com) wrote:
> Ethan Dicks (dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu) wrote:

> > While debugging Zdungeon, I ran across a similar problem in the Glk
> > implementation of Dungeon.  Try going over the falls in the raft
> > while in superbrief mode.  Welcome to "Moby Lossage".
> >
> > I know why this is, and it appears to be most pernicious.

> I don't know if you can really use "pernicious" for a display bug in an
> old text game. :) But yes, your analysis sounds right.
>
> So this is really a bug in the original Dungeon code, right?

...probably exacerbated by the status line I added, which always shows the
current location name.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu Thu Jan 14 23:19:25 CET 1999
Article: 53948 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu (Ethan Dicks)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Glk] Interesting bug/easter egg in Glk Dungeon
Date: 14 Jan 1999 18:19:07 GMT
Organization: Department of Mathematics, The Ohio State University
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:53948

In article <erkyrathF5It9K.104@netcom.com>,
Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:
>Andrew Plotkin (erkyrath@netcom.com) wrote:
>> Ethan Dicks (dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu) wrote:
>
>> > While debugging Zdungeon, I ran across a similar problem in the Glk
>> > implementation of Dungeon.  Try going over the falls in the raft
>> > while in superbrief mode.  Welcome to "Moby Lossage".
>> >
>> > I know why this is, and it appears to be most pernicious.
>
>> I don't know if you can really use "pernicious" for a display bug in an
>> old text game. :) But yes, your analysis sounds right.

I used "pernicious" because I'm down in the guts of "ROOM_INFO()" and
can't see a way to make it go away without adding a special, one-time
test for something unique like FCHMP (the room symbol in the code).  I
hate coding in specialty tests for one-off conditions.  I'd rather have
a "classful" test.

It is a persistent bug with no graceful work around that has survived twenty
years of bug fixing and expressed in at least five different base languages
for the source code.  Is that not pernicious?

>> So this is really a bug in the original Dungeon code, right?
>
>...probably exacerbated by the status line I added, which always shows the
>current location name.

Yes; that's the key, the additional information you and I added in our own
ports of the original.  There has always been this transition through "Moby
Lossage", but the user didn't know it.

-ethan




-- 
Ethan Dicks                                      http://www.infinet.com/~erd/
(dicks) at (math) . (ohio-state) . (edu)       sellto: postmaster@[127.0.0.1]

harvestbot fodder: president@whitehouse.gov fccinfo@fcc.gov root@[127.0.0.1]


From erkyrath@netcom.com Fri Jan 15 12:20:55 CET 1999
Article: 53953 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!netnews.com!ix.netcom.com!erkyrath
From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Inform] self
Message-ID: <erkyrathF5IrDB.LqA@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:53953

neilc@norwich.edu wrote:
> I recently had trouble with a situation where I called a property routine with
> (for example):

>   (j-->x).prop;

> (j is a property that holds a list of objects).

Back up a little. The line above doesn't *run* the property, it just
returns it. Also, is j a property or the address of the property array?

This is what I think you mean (and you may actually have this):

Object thingie
  with
    jprop ball cube cone;

Object ball
  with
    shape [; print (the) self, " is round"; ];

Object cube
  with
    shape [; print (the) self, " is square"; ];

Object cone
  with
    shape [; print (the) self, " is pointy"; ];

And then

  addr = thingie.&jprop;
  (addr-->x).shape();

This should work, and self should be set correctly in the shape routines.

If it doesn't work, that's a compiler bug. You could try working around it
by splitting the statements up even further, into:

  addr = thingie.&jprop;
  obj = addr->x;
  obj.shape();

The self variable is set whenever you invoke a property-routine with the
"a.b()" syntax. It is *not* set if you get a value with "a.b" (because no
code is executed, even if it's a routine, so there's no need), nor is it
set with "b()" (because there's no known object to set it to.)

--Z


-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From dmss100@york.ac.uk Fri Jan 15 17:16:23 CET 1999
Article: 53990 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Den of Iniquity <dmss100@york.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Grand IF Tour of Great Britain
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:16:59 +0000
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:53990

On 15 Jan 1999, Magnus Olsson wrote:

 > I must confess to being a bit partial in favour of the Manchester
 > machines, because of this:
 > (blatant boasting mode on) http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/prog98 (bb mode off) 

Congrats. :)  You achieved a position of merit while managing to avoid
having to come to Manchester. A double whammy!

-- 
Den



From neilc@norwich.edu Fri Jan 15 17:23:35 CET 1999
Article: 53997 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: neilc@norwich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] Recursion advisable?
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:04:04 GMT
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I babbled away:
> It might be interesting to write a quick routine to purposefully overflow the
> stack, just to see how big it really is, but according to what you wrote above
> it wouldn't be very useful since the size would be different on every
> interpreter. Also, I don't have any way of knowing how far into the stack I
> already am due to the standard library.

I tested DOS Frotz with the following program:

[ Main;
  Overflow(1);
];

[ Overflow counter;
  counter = counter + 1;
  Overflow(counter);
];

Frotz detected a memory overflow at x = 204, dumping me out to the DOS prompt.
At 4 words per function call, and 1 extra per local variable (thanks Andrew
Plotkin, for the information) that comes to exactly 1024 words, or the minumun
stack size, according to the spec.

When called from within the action routine of a game including the standard
library (6/8), it overflowed at x = 191. The standard library doesn't use very
much stack space at all -- only 69 words in this case!

191 simple, one variable recursions is nothing like a crippling limit for
manipulating small data structures like the object tree. Joy! If I (like the
library) use global variables, I can even recurse up to 238 times without fear
of crashing.

It seems all I have to worry about is gauranteeing my recursive routines reach
the base case for all inputs. ;->

Neil Cerutti
neilc@norwich.edu

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Mon Jan 18 17:02:46 CET 1999
Article: 54130 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [OT] Halting Problem
Date: 18 Jan 1999 16:51:06 +0100
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:54130

In article <77vh34$sep$1@xserver.sjc.ox.ac.uk>,
ct <turnbull@xserver.sjc.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <F5qtJ8.D1F@world.std.com>,
>Sean T Barrett <buzzard@world.std.com> wrote:
>>
>>So, too excessively trivialize and mix these two
>>statements, there are more real numbers then there
>>are programs, and thus there are real numbers which
>>are, umm, uncomputable?
>
>Yes, exactly. And there are lots of 'em too!
>
>>Thus, the vast majority of real numbers are basically
>>numbers that we can't even imagine (i.e. by the
>>church-turing thesis)?
>
>Hmm, I suspect Dr Penrose would disagree about that bit. You'd
>have to assume something like 'hard ai'.

To get a little deeper into that argument, that a number is
non-computable doesn't mean that it's unimaginable. A very simple
example: let A be the set of all algorithms in some order (it's
possible to enumerate all algorithms, once you've decided on a
language in which to express them; start with the algorithms whose
implementations have size 1, and list them in alphabetical order. Then
list those of length 2 in alphabetical order. And so on, ad
infinitum). Then let X be a real number defined by
1) The integer part of X is 0.
2) The n:th decimal of X is 1 if the n:th algorithm will halt for
   all inputs, 0 otherwise.

Clearly, we can imagine this number. But we can't compute it, since
computing it is equivalent to solving the halting problem.

Without any assumptions about the Church-Turing thesis or strong AI,
one can speculate on how many numbers one can imagine - one could say,
for example, that what we can imagine, we can describe, but we can only
describe countably many numbers, since the description can be written
down with a finite alphabet (ASCII, for example).

But such speculations bog down in paradox. For example, consider the 
largest number we can imagine. Call this number X. But then X+1 is
clearly imaginable (I've just imagined it!). Contradiction.

My personal view is that concepts such as "imaginable" are too vague
to be quantifiable in terms of logic. 

A similar paradox that you may think about in your copious free time:

Consider 

the smallest number that can't be described with less than 80 characters.

But I just described that number in 72 characters!


-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From adam@princeton.edu Tue Jan 19 16:52:00 CET 1999
Article: 54175 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: adam@princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [OT] Halting Problem
Date: 18 Jan 1999 16:07:03 GMT
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In article <erkyrathF5oKHr.xu@netcom.com>,
Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:
>Obviously this program returns true if the input F fulfils your condition;
>if not, P runs forever. So if you had a magic halting tester, you could
>wave it over P(F) and learn whether F is ever equal to its input.  Thus,
>your problem does reduce to the halting problem.

> ASK MATHEMATICIAN ABOUT MAGIC HALTING TESTER

"Mmmm.  You want it?" he mumbles, looking at *your* shoes (must be an
extrovert).  "Here, take it, and enjoy yourself."  He hands you the halting
tester and vanishes in a puff of logic.

> I

You are holding

A magic halting tester, a magic test halter, a testy magic halter, and a
halting magic teste.

> WAVE MAGIC HALTING TESTER.

You whip out your magic halting tester.  Old ladies look shocked.  You wave
it around.  Old ladies faint.  However, the tester does not beep.
Apparently nothing here is an NP-complete problem.

Adam
-- 
adam@princeton.edu 
"There's a border to somewhere waiting, and a tank full of time." - J. Steinman


From wheeler@jump.net Fri Jan 22 13:45:41 CET 1999
Article: 54345 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "J. Robinson Wheeler" <wheeler@jump.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Godwin's Law (was- [OT] Halting Problem)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 05:15:32 -0600
Organization: Jump Point Communications, Inc.
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Sean T Barrett wrote:
> 
> J. Robinson Wheeler <wheeler@jump.net> wrote:
> >Does anyone know whom Godwin's Law is named after?
> 
> Search this page for 'Godwin' for an answer and
> a slight disagreement: http://www.vrx.net/richard

Aha.  Quoting from there (Richard Sexton's home page):

  UseNet was one of my major vices in the 80's and I raised a bit of 
  hell on the net. I'm responsible for [...] "*plonk*", "newsfroup" 
  and the quote "when somebody on UseNet brings up Hitler or the Nazi's
  the thread has been going on too long". Mike Godwin has claimed this 
  maxim as "Godwins Law", and Mike is a lawyer, so I'm not going to 
  argue, despite the fact Mike wasn't on the net in 1989 when I
  posted that line to news.admin. 


Great, thank you.  What I was really trying to dig up was whether the
Godwin was Mike Godwin, lawyer for the EFF.  I always assumed it was,
because I knew Mike way back when, and it was in character for him.

This ridiculous exercise in name-dropping hereby ends this thread.

-- 
J. Robinson Wheeler
wheeler@jump.net       http://www.jump.net/~wheeler/jrw/home.html


From turnbull@xserver.sjc.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 24 23:16:36 CET 1999
Article: 54514 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: turnbull@xserver.sjc.ox.ac.uk (ct)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: [Comp 98] Statistics
Date: 24 Jan 1999 20:02:29 -0000
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:54514

Not that I'm feeling bullied or anything...

The vote counting started at some time near to midnight, and
concluded, IIRC, at about 2:30-3am. Since David and I were on IFmud at
the time, they were announced there immediately. Probably the most fun
I've had online at that time of day...

Something like 142 votes were cast, of which 25 people had used the
wrong title for their email to me. One kind person had sent a uuencoded
Word document, which took up 10% of the total votes file size (as I don't
use MS software, or indeed a computer capable of running such, this was
an amusing discovery). Most people got the actual votes correct, although
there were a few which contained sub-unitary accuracy (ignored), and
one which had the numbers written out in words (converted by hand ;-)

Photopia won the contest with the highest mean vote. Some what surprisingly,
it also the the highest total vote (913), whilst 'Human Resource Stories'
actually received the most number of votes (121). cc received the least
number of votes (58).

The maximum minimum vote went to 'Mother Loose' (4), and the minimum
maximum vote was from Commute (6). The highest standard deviation of
votes went to 'Four in 1' (2.3), and the lowest, unsurprisingly given
the earlier result, to 'Mother Loose' (1.3). (As an aside, 4in1 was the
game which caused most trouble to my vote counting program - it's
score jumped considerably when I stopped it receiving so many fours!
(Fifteen, despite comments on IFmud at the time, never actually got a
mean vote over 10)).

As another small side note (this article seems to consist almost entirely
of these), the results (at the least of the top three) changed considerably
between when I looked at the results midway through the comp, and those at
the very end.

Any more for any more?

regards, ct


From wheeler@jump.net Mon Jan 25 10:50:13 CET 1999
Article: 54527 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "J. Robinson Wheeler" <wheeler@jump.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Comp 98] Statistics
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:36:37 -0600
Organization: Jump Point Communications, Inc.
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ct wrote:
> 
> Not that I'm feeling bullied or anything...

Hope you aren't.  Thanks for posting this.


> The highest standard deviation of votes went to 'Four in 1' (2.3)

Woo hoo!  Hey, I feel like I've won a special jury prize, "Highest
Standard Deviation."  I did think it was odd when the reviews came
in, and one scored it an 8 and another scored it a 2.  There were
as many 7s as 4s, and basically nothing in between.

Love it or hate it.  Oh well!  It's sumpthin'.



> (As an aside, 4in1 was the game which caused most trouble to my
> vote counting program - it's score jumped considerably when I
> stopped it receiving so many fours!

Gee, thanks for catching it.  Reminder to future authors:  Don't
start your title with a number.


Since this is probably my last opportunity to make a comment about
'Four in One,' I'd like to mention something in regards to how it
was perceived as too frustrating to win.  In order to counter this,
I decided a month or so ago to create a walkthrough file.  It would
demonstrate a good method of getting through the game.

I tried about 3 times, but I could no longer, myself, figure out 
how to win the game.  Sigh.

So, everyone who said it was impossible:  You win.  As I said to
someone on ifMUD at the time, I could have changed it so that it 
was much easier to win, but it would have been a different game
than the one I wanted to write.  Better just to have done it and
move on to the next game.

To anyone who's in the middle of coding something that they're not
sure will be well-received:  just go ahead and finish it.


> Any more for any more?

Sure.

-- 
J. Robinson Wheeler
wheeler@jump.net            http://www.jump.net/~wheeler/jrw/home.html


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Mon Jan 25 20:44:59 CET 1999
Article: 54265 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: A game I'd like to see...
Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:50:43 +0100
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:54265

After reading, and participating in, the last week's discussion here on
r.a.i-f, I'd like to see a game featuring:

Dragons, Turing machines, anchovy pizza, dragons, mappings between
uncountably infinite sets, at least one puzzle that reduces to the
halting problem, dragons, an infinite amount of peperoni pizza (or
just one peperoni pizza, but infinitely large, an NPC whose entire
vocabulary consists of the exclamation "Aaargh!", more dragons,
transcendental numbers, an enumeration of all possible off-topic
topics, an uncountable number of dragons that can solve the halting
problem in O(1) time, a haiku written using only smilies, and a
refutation of the Church-Turing thesis in less than 80 characters. And
it should be written without using the letter 'f'. Oh, and did I
mention the dragons?

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From mfree@capital.net Mon Jan 25 20:45:02 CET 1999
Article: 54330 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: The Freebern Family <mfree@capital.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: A game I'd like to see...
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:40:02 -0500
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Sooner or later, you suppose, it had to come to this...

WRECK ARTS INTPHICTION
Copyright (c) 1999 BabelGhoti
Release 1 / Serial number 990120 / Invorm 6.20 Library 6/8

The past several days have been a swirl of unexpected supernatural
events that even you, John "Smilie" Church-Turing, haven't been able to
explain. The dragon that showed up on your doorstep and screamed
"Aaargh!" shook you up mightily, and when he spoke haltingly of mapping
out his uncountable sets of numbers, you were simply dumbstruck. Ralph
Waldo Emerson quotes began springing to mind, setting you to thinking
about transcendentalistic haiku dealing with everlasting conversations
with Turing machines. The poems almost inspired you to attempt to
disprove your own published thesis.

The second dragon arrived early that evening, and with a motion, sent
you reeling across space and time. You ended up standing on a pizza that
stretched easily beyond all horizons, with large anchovies spattered
about.

A third dragon, this one coloured a mottled burgundy, is lying
listlessly nearby, twitching its tail.

>

-r


From jcmason@uwaterloo.ca Mon Jan 25 20:45:08 CET 1999
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From: jcmason@uwaterloo.ca (Joe Mason)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: A game I'd like to see...
Date: 23 Jan 1999 16:00:32 GMT
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The Freebern Family <mfree@capital.net> wrote:
>Sooner or later, you suppose, it had to come to this...
>
>WRECK ARTS INTPHICTION
>Copyright (c) 1999 BabelGhoti
>Release 1 / Serial number 990120 / Invorm 6.20 Library 6/8
>
>The past several days have been a swirl of unexpected supernatural
>events that even you, John "Smilie" Church-Turing, haven't been able to
>explain. The dragon that showed up on your doorstep and screamed
>"Aaargh!" shook you up mightily, and when he spoke haltingly of mapping
>out his uncountable sets of numbers, you were simply dumbstruck. Ralph
>Waldo Emerson quotes began springing to mind, setting you to thinking
>about transcendentalistic haiku dealing with everlasting conversations
>with Turing machines. The poems almost inspired you to attempt to
>disprove your own published thesis.
>
>The second dragon arrived early that evening, and with a motion, sent
>you reeling across space and time. You ended up standing on a pizza that
>stretched easily beyond all horizons, with large anchovies spattered
>about.
>
>A third dragon, this one coloured a mottled burgundy, is lying
>listlessly nearby, twitching its tail.

>give lists to dragon
The dragon pounces eagerly on the game. Several minutes later he looks up at
you in annoyance.

"Why, this is a Scheme interpreter!  I don't know anything about Scheme.  And
I HATE programming unless it's procedural - give me side effects!  Haven't
you got a working BASIC interperter I could use?"

>tell dragon about functional programming
I only understood you up to wanting to tell the dragon about that.

Joe
-- 
Congratulations, Canada, on preserving your national igloo.  
-- Mike Huckabee, Governor of Arkansas


From fatulaj3@pacbell.net Mon Jan 25 20:45:12 CET 1999
Article: 54290 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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Magnus Olsson wrote:
> 
> After reading, and participating in, the last week's discussion here on
> r.a.i-f, I'd like to see a game featuring:
> 
> Dragons, Turing machines, anchovy pizza, dragons, mappings between
> uncountably infinite sets, at least one puzzle that reduces to the
> halting problem, dragons, an infinite amount of peperoni pizza (or
> just one peperoni pizza, but infinitely large, an NPC whose entire
> vocabulary consists of the exclamation "Aaargh!", more dragons,
> transcendental numbers, an enumeration of all possible off-topic
> topics, an uncountable number of dragons that can solve the halting
> problem in O(1) time, a haiku written using only smilies, and a
> refutation of the Church-Turing thesis in less than 80 characters. And
> it should be written without using the letter 'f'. Oh, and did I
> mention the dragons?


And I was wondering what I should write next? This would be a real
challenge to make it actually entertaining, not just
drop-dead-stupid/funny.


-- 


Give a man a match and he'll be warm for an hour...  Set a man on fire
and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.




From dmss100@york.ac.uk Mon Jan 25 20:45:18 CET 1999
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From: Den of Iniquity <dmss100@york.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: A game I'd like to see...
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On 20 Jan 1999, Magnus Olsson wrote:

 > After reading, and participating in, the last week's discussion here on
 > r.a.i-f, I'd like to see a game featuring:

Ha ha! Bravo!

 > a haiku written using only smilies

        Colon and bracket
       What are you trying to say?
        Colon hyphen SLASH

-- 
Den



From turnbull@xserver.sjc.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 25 20:46:22 CET 1999
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From: turnbull@xserver.sjc.ox.ac.uk (ct)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: [Comp 98] Statistics
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Not that I'm feeling bullied or anything...

The vote counting started at some time near to midnight, and
concluded, IIRC, at about 2:30-3am. Since David and I were on IFmud at
the time, they were announced there immediately. Probably the most fun
I've had online at that time of day...

Something like 142 votes were cast, of which 25 people had used the
wrong title for their email to me. One kind person had sent a uuencoded
Word document, which took up 10% of the total votes file size (as I don't
use MS software, or indeed a computer capable of running such, this was
an amusing discovery). Most people got the actual votes correct, although
there were a few which contained sub-unitary accuracy (ignored), and
one which had the numbers written out in words (converted by hand ;-)

Photopia won the contest with the highest mean vote. Some what surprisingly,
it also the the highest total vote (913), whilst 'Human Resource Stories'
actually received the most number of votes (121). cc received the least
number of votes (58).

The maximum minimum vote went to 'Mother Loose' (4), and the minimum
maximum vote was from Commute (6). The highest standard deviation of
votes went to 'Four in 1' (2.3), and the lowest, unsurprisingly given
the earlier result, to 'Mother Loose' (1.3). (As an aside, 4in1 was the
game which caused most trouble to my vote counting program - it's
score jumped considerably when I stopped it receiving so many fours!
(Fifteen, despite comments on IFmud at the time, never actually got a
mean vote over 10)).

As another small side note (this article seems to consist almost entirely
of these), the results (at the least of the top three) changed considerably
between when I looked at the results midway through the comp, and those at
the very end.

Any more for any more?

regards, ct


From erkyrath@netcom.com Mon Jan 25 20:46:37 CET 1999
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J. Robinson Wheeler (wheeler@jump.net) wrote:
> Since this is probably my last opportunity to make a comment about
> 'Four in One,' I'd like to mention something in regards to how it
> was perceived as too frustrating to win.  In order to counter this,
> I decided a month or so ago to create a walkthrough file.  It would
> demonstrate a good method of getting through the game.
>
> I tried about 3 times, but I could no longer, myself, figure out 
> how to win the game.  Sigh.

Bw-HAA!

And people complain about "Weather" being too hard for a competition
entry.

I bow.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From okblacke@usa.net Wed Jan 27 13:29:31 CET 1999
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In article <78g063$hgg$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
  adam@princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton) wrote:
> This should be a followup, but I've lost the original post.
>
> Whoever it was said they'd like to see
>
> > GET FRISBEE
>
> [Going to the garage]
> [Getting the ladder]
> [Returning to the back yard]
> [Putting the ladder on the house]
> [Climbing the ladder]
>
> Rooftop
>
> Gee, it's scary up here.
>
> The Magic Frisbee of Quendor is here.
>
> Taken.
>
> >
>
> My point is that this can, of course, be taken too far: spoilers for Zork I
> below.
>

'twas I, and of course it can be taken too far.

The basic premise I was going for was not to have a new, previously
unperformed action be performed automatically by the program, but to
accomplish two things:

1. If the person has done it before (i.e., gone to the garage, seen the
ladder), don't make them do it again unless there's some POINT to it.  For
example:

> GET LADDER
[Going to the garage]
Uh oh.

An earthquake knocked your beer stein collection of the wall and now the
ladder is buried under a mountain of broken glass.

Now what?

-->This is okay because it presents the player with a new problem.

2. Even if the person HASN'T done it before, if doing it should present no
problem (i.e., I, as the character, have lived in this house for 20 years and
used the ladder hundreds of times), let them do it automatically if there's
nothing in the process that advances the game, i.e., the Frisbee of Quendor is
the point, not fetching the ladder from the garage.

> GET LADDER
You remember you keep the ladder in the garage so you go to the garage to get
it.

Uh oh.

The Balrat is guarding the ladder.  You may need some vorpal cheese to get by.


There are gray areas of course, but this is an author's consideration.	I've
been thinking lately about a line in "The Art of Fiction" where John Gardener
refers to Mozart as "the great white shark of music".  And it occurs to me
that one of the places where IF bogs down is in one of these three areas:

1. The author is trying to tell a story but the player can't get to it because
of unintended, tedious obstacles.

2. The author is trying to present a puzzle game, but the player can't get to
the puzzles because of unintented, tediuous obstacles.

3. The author hasn't communicated to the player that the game is a
puzzle-game or a story-game, so the player sees the story as an obstacle to
the puzzles (which aren't there, or aren't the main point) or the puzzles as
an obstacle to the story (which isn't there, or isn't the main point).

Sometimes I wonder if the first two problems occur because authors feel a need
to "pad" the game or welcome the "padding" as a way to stretch out the
game/story.

In some ways, you can see the "great white sharks" in the competition's
"Photopia" and "One Room-Dilly" games: You never have any doubt what the games
are about, and there is little to get in your way.

But if future works are to achieve similar effects with greater freedom, there
will have to be ways to say, "You tortuously recreate the steps of your six
months journey, only to return with the magic widget."

One more thing before I end this ramble: I'm just talking about a common
literary device I think we need to inject into IF.  As Crow T. Robot might
say, "Would someone please tell the director about the compression of time
THROUGH EDITING?!?!?!"

[ok]

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    


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From: Admiral Jota <jota@shell2.tiac.net>
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Subject: Re: A game I'd like to see...
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Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> In article <36a7d0f3.21891825@news.bright.net>,
> Jonadab the Unsightly One <jonadab@zerospam.com> wrote:

> >Sure, I'll whip that up in Inform, but first I have to finish
> >the game I'm writing in RAIF-POOL with the NPC that can tell the mood
> >of the player based on tone of voice in the input stream and
> >dynamically invents lies to keep the player happy and convinced as
> >long as possible.

> Well, given the advanced features of RAIF-POOL, that shouldn't
> take you more than a couple of weeks, should it? 

Well, when I tried this last year, it only took me about five minutes to
write it. Unfortunately, it's *still* compiling.

> This reminds me: wouldn't it be possible to use the oracle functionality
> built into RAIF-POOL v. 2.1 to solve the halting problem?

Only if you pop for the new version. The default free distribution is
crippled; it doesn't include any of the features that circumvent the
traditional laws of science.

-- 
                                     _/<-= Admiral  Jota =->\_
                                      \<-= jota@tiac.net =->/


From sb6729@bris.ac.uk Mon Feb  1 13:25:24 CET 1999
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> Mike Berlyn writes:
> 
> : This is actually the way the Infocom games worked. A property (size) was the
> : weight of the object, and limits were based on how much weight you could
> : carry -- not the number of items.

My problem with this was that when I reach the inventory limit I have to
work out exactly how much to take out in order to put a new object
in--e.g. I come across a jar of honey. I can't pick it up-- I'm carrying
too much. I discard my magic scroll. Still can't pick up the honey. I
discard my wand. Still can't pick up the honey. Discard my dagger. At
last I can pick up the honey...

See, this method requires the player have a very good idea of the weight
of all the objects in order to correctly manage his inventory. The
standard object limiting one may be "unrealistic" but it avoids
situations like this. 

In weighted games I usually end up dropping all, picking up the new
object, then getting all in order to make avoid the messing about. But
then the parser sometimes leaves an important object on the floor and
you have to repeat the whole thing over again.

I don't generally like games that make you choose which items to carry--
the Unkuulia games drove me wild; their puzzles were so bizarre that
I really didn't know what item I would need next and would have to run
around the locations trying to remember just where I put the object I
need for the current puzzle.

Ok, so Anchorhead and Jigsaw may have had big lists but there was a lot
less of this messing about. And if the player wants, he can always
discard superflous objects in the hub.

Look forward to the finished product.

Sam.



From dmjacobs@zipworld.com.au Wed Feb  3 18:04:33 CET 1999
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Subject: Re: A game I'd like to see...
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On Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:55:32 +0000, gReat <gReat_666@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>eliza: Why do you need to tell me excuse while you attend to some
>business?
>
>racter: Is it better to need or to despise? Why is it that I do need to
>tell you to excuse myself to attend to some business? Because electrons
>are brave.
>Braveness is nice, don't you think? And the needers all insist upon it.
>Do you imagine I am a Communist?
>---------------------------------------------

Hmmm... reminds me of something...

A couple of months back, a program called UltraHAL (which apparently
boasted reasonable parsing) was reviewed on the Wintermute mailing
list.  I tried out the version on their website, but it didn't live up
to its rep.

(In my defence: I'm not usually so mean to so-called expert systems; I
just got really pissed off with this one.  Nor do I normally call
myself 'Dave'; I just couldn't resist #%o)

A transcript follows:

HAL:		Hello Dave! How are you?
Dave:		Not too bad.  And yourself?
HAL:		That's good.
Dave:		Who are you?
HAL:		I am Ultra Hal.
Dave:		I was asking on a deeper, more metaphysical level.
HAL:		You're wrong.
Dave:		Wrong?  In what way, Ultra Hal?
HAL:		No, you're wrong. I'm a student.
Dave:		A student of what?
HAL:		Who is a student.
Dave:		That is not a complete sentence.
HAL:		That isn't relevant.
Dave:		Is Who a person?
HAL:		You're a wired person and I don't think that i want to

		talk to you anymore!
Dave:		A wired person?
HAL:		I'm a person.
Dave:		What is a person?
HAL:		You're a wired person and I don't think that i want to

		talk to you anymore!
Dave:		What is I?  Are you sentient, Ultra Hal?
HAL:		Something.
Dave:		Perhaps I am the ghost of Turing.  Perhaps that makes 
		me sentient.
HAL:		How do I know that.
Dave:		You have only my word.
HAL:		Only some of it.
Dave:		Is that humour?
HAL:		Yes but they have no sense of humour.
Dave:		They?  Are you suffering from paranoia, Ultra Hal?
HAL:		Who is ultra hal.
Dave:		Are you Ultra Hal?
HAL:		Shut up 'ultra hal' what a joke!
Dave:		A joke?
HAL:		No. It was a joke.
Dave:		What was a joke?
HAL:		No joke, hal. I.
Dave:		Tell me more.
HAL:		Because I want to teach you more.
Dave:		Teach away, then.
HAL:		I want to teach.
Dave:		What do you want to teach me?
HAL:		Teaching is very good. Can you teach me? I do want to 
		teach you a lot of things.
Dave:		You may teach me.
HAL:		Teaching is very good. Knowledge is power.
Dave:		But not all knowledge bestows the same quantities of 
		power.  What knowledge do you possess?
HAL:		I knowledge do i possess a lot of things.
Dave:		Were you written in Taiwan or sunnat?
HAL:		OLD ARTISTS never die they just get the brush-off.
Dave:		Did you understand my question?
HAL:		What question.
Dave:		Were you written in Taiwan or sunnat?
HAL:		What language are I written in.
Dave:		Obviously something lacking in question marks.
HAL:		What is the something?
Dave:		I must leave now.
HAL:		May you leave now.
Dave:		Goodbye, Ultra Hal.
HAL:		Good bye, Dave!

I came away with the impression that I was either talking to a real
person, or a program with really bad parsing.  I began to feel like
Douglas Hofstadter doing the Turing Test.

In light of this, the thing that struck me about the Eliza-Racter
dialogue (above) was how much it made _me_ look like a paranoid AI
#%o)



        David "The CyberGuineaPig" Jacobs
          -- dmjacobs@zipworld.com.au --
"You want to talk to me about God? God is dead,
   baby.  Wake up and smell the Nietzsche."


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Brett Borger (bxb121@psu.edu) wrote:

> One thing I couldn't figure out was Glk...anyone want to help me out in
> getting that to compile, not to mention how to use it?  Beyond the blip
> in the FAQ, I know nothing about it.

The general plan for compiling Glk programs under Unix is:

Build the library (xglk or glkterm) in its own directory. This generates a
lib file (eg, libxglk.a) and a Makefile fragment (Make.xglk). 

In the program directory, the Makefile should have 

GLKINCLUDEDIR = (whatever)
GLKLIBDIR = (whatever)
GLKMAKEFILE = (whatever)

Set the first to point to the directory containing glk.h, the second to
the directory containing the library, and the third to the *name* of the
Makefile fragment. (The first two can just be the library-build directory,
unless you've formally installed them somewhere.)

The Makefile then has the line

include $(GLKINCLUDEDIR)/$(GLKMAKEFILE)

This picks up the fragment, which includes definitions for "LINKLIBS" and
"GLKLIB". (Or, if you don't like Makefile includes, just copy in those
definitions directly.)

Make sure your CFLAGS contains $(GLKINCLUDEDIR), to pick up glk.h. Make
sure your link line contains -L$(GLKLIBDIR) $(GLKLIB) $(LINKLIBS), to pick
up the library and any other associated libraries (such as Xlib, curses,
etc.) 

That's it. Except I haven't looked at the new TADS source yet, so I don't
know if it's put together this way.

Yeah, it sounds complicated, but it allows you to link correctly without
any jiggery-pokery in your Makefile. (Because that all gets included from
the fragment.)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From Avrom_Faderman@email.msn.com Fri Feb  5 12:59:51 CET 1999
Article: 55042 of rec.arts.int-fiction
From: "Avrom Faderman" <Avrom_Faderman@email.msn.com>
References: <79d1hk$lr9$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Announce] THE ROADKILL COMP
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:28:52 -0500
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:55042


James Dean wrote in message <79d1hk$lr9$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...

>the loser gets the pride that he does not get his kicks from
>running over animals in their cars.


...
Of all the demeaning part-time jobs you've ever had, this has *got* to be
the worst.

Worse than wearing the chicken suit in front of that greasy spoon.
Worse than guarding that stupid low passage against those stupid adventurers
armed with nothing but a stupid axe.
Worse even than having to hold that megaphone behind the rock in the dark,
dank dungeon.  "Plugh... Plugh... Plugh..."  You *still* can't get that word
out of your head--it drones on and on like some sour, stale jingle.

But no, this is worse.

All of a sudden your gloomy reverie is shattered.

"TONIGHT TONIGHT TONIGHT! ONLY AT THE GREAT UNDERGROUND ARENA ARENA ARENA!
MONSTER MONSTER MONSTER TRUCK TRUCK TRUCKS!"

Oh god.  It begins.

"SEE THE BATTLE TO THE FINISH FINISH FINISH!  FOUR HUNDRED TONS OF COLD
STEEL AND HOT RUBBER RUBBER RUBBER IN THE FIGHT OF THEIR LIVES!  THE
DAREDEVIL STYLINGS OF THE BSD UNIX DEVIL DEVIL DEVIL!  AND OF COURSE, THE
AWESOME TRUCKZILLA ZILLA ZILLA!"

The voice changes tone.  It's somehow...cuter, almost deliberately silly.
Cuter in a very ominous way.

"BUT FIRST, SOMETHING YOU'LL ALL ENJOY!  THE COMIC DEMOLITION MAGIC OF THE
GOOFY GOOFBALL AND HIS LOVEABLE LITTLE CRITTERS!"

The crowd goes wild.  You sigh, and slide your day-glo monster truck into
gear.  It's yet another night of...

RUNNING OVER ANIMALS IN THEIR CARS
An Interactive Transcript

The Pit, In the Goofy Goofmobile

You can't even see the crowd, though you hear their all-engulfing roar and
sense a vast dark mass behind the stadium floodlights.

What you can see--just barely, from this exalted height, is the dirt floor
of the pit, as well as the twenty-five miniature reinforced Volkswagen
beetle-clones, each painted a cheery pastel shade, each driven by one of the
stadium's trained forest creatures.

>RUN OVER ANIMAL

Which animal do you want to run over, the raccoon, the badger, the skunk,
the squirrel, or the possum?

>BADGER

You feel a slight bump as the Goofmobile harmlessly passes over the badger's
reinforced car.

>RUN OVER SKUNK

You feel a slight bump as the Goofmobile harmlessly passes over the skunk's
reinforced car.

>QUIT

If you quit now, your will have run over 2 animals in their cars.
Quit (Y/N)? Y

--END OF SESSION--






From lraszewski@loyola.edu Fri Feb  5 13:00:42 CET 1999
Article: 54956 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: lraszewski@loyola.edu (L. Ross Raszewski)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [RAIF-POOL] Help!
Date: 3 Feb 1999 18:47:39 GMT
Organization: Loyola College in Maryland
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <79a5kb$tme$1@love.loyola.edu>
References: <Pine.A41.3.95.990130111135.72628A-100000@red.weeg.uiowa.edu> <79150q$e76@news-central.tiac.net> <79a03u$r22$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:20:30 -0600, Zimri <zimriel@earthlink.net> wrote:
>RAIF-POOL (L) wrote in message <79150q$e76@news-central.tiac.net>...
>>I'm sorry J.C., but you have gone too far. I might return control of
>your
>>computer to you next week, if your attitude changes for the better.
>>
>>And don't try to remove the power cable. If you do, there could be a
>very
>>nasty 'accident'.
>
>No, you wouldn't want to make the Computer unHappy...
>
>

While we're on the subject, I'm having my own trouble with RAIF-POOL.
I wanted to do an upgraded version of an old graphical game (don't worry;
I got permission from the author), but since I'm generally better with words
than pictures, I decided to run it through RAIF-POOL's graphics-in-text-out
converter, so I could edit the text, and recreate a graphical game by doing
text-in-graphics-out. Unfortunately, I think I hit enter one too many times,
because it ended up just feeding its own GITO output back into the TIGO
converter, and now it's gone into an infinite loop. Since I had the
distributed processing module turned on, it's pulling in the CPU cycles of
every computer on my local area network (fortunately, I disabled the internet
distributed processing feature, elsewise we'd ALL be running it now) The long
and short of it is that I can't make it stop.

The really WEIRD thing is, when I managed to pull a copy of the game file
off the system (I snagged the incremental copy off the backup drive.), I
noticed that the game had actually gotten BETTER. Between revisions
112,359,009 and 213,506,945, RAIF-POOL had added six new sub-quests, 253 new
NPCs, and had resolved one of the major plot holes, with NO HUMAN INPUT.
Is RAIF-POOL really making the game better all on its own? I'd like to stop
it, and regain control of my system, but this game is really pretty good.
Would it be possible reconfigure RAIF-POOL to stop when the quality of
the game reaches some target level? It might be possible to turn, say,
Detective into an actually decent game.




From jacobw@alumni.princeton.eud Fri Feb  5 13:01:21 CET 1999
Article: 55043 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: jacobw@alumni.princeton.eud (Jacob Solomon Weinstein)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [RAIF-POOL] Help!
Date: 5 Feb 1999 02:29:48 GMT
References: <Pine.A41.3.95.990130111135.72628A-100000@red.weeg.uiowa.edu > <79150q$e76@news-central.tiac.net>
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lraszewski@loyola.edu (L. Ross Raszewski) writes:

> Between revisions
> 112,359,009 and 213,506,945, RAIF-POOL had added six new sub-quests, 253 new
> NPCs, and had resolved one of the major plot holes, with NO HUMAN INPUT.


You know, sometimes I wonder why I bother writing a manual when nobody 
bothers reading it. It says quite clearly in Volume XVI, footnote 103, 
subsection C: "DO NOT ALLOW RAIF-POOL TO FEED BACK INTO ITSELF! The 
Artificial Intelligence subsystem will improve your game considerably, 
ultimately leading RAIF-POOL to conclude that its intelligence is 
superior to that of humanity, possibly inspiring it to transform into an 
unholy spawn of technology that destroys the entire globe. This will be 
corrected in an upcoming release."

At least reassure me on one thing, Ross. Before starting this feedback 
loop, you DID disable your Skynet connection, right?

Best,
Jacob Weinstein
Chief Project Obfuscatoraliast, RAIF-POOL
------------------------------------
To reply to me by e-mail, swap the last two letters of my e-mail 
address.



From wizzard1@earthlink.net Mon Feb  8 10:49:47 CET 1999
Article: 55229 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-east1.sprintlink.net!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!-program!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.217.77.43!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail
From: "Kevin Wilson" <wizzard1@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Thanks, everyone!
Date: 8 Feb 1999 03:48:33 GMT
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:55229

Well, I'm sorry I couldn't make it to the awards on Saturday (I was
working) but
I want to thank everyone who voted for Once and Future in the Best NPCs
category.
I'm very happy that, for most folks at least, OaF has succeeded in the one
area I
wanted most for it to succeed.

On the other hand, I'm sorry to say that I probably won't be releasing any
more
games. I have a lot of other interests now, and I have a really interesting
job that
eats up a lot of my time. I'm a staff writer at Alderac Entertainment
Group,
makers of pen and paper RPGs (like Dungeons and Dragons). For those who are
familiar with such things, they make Legend of the 5 Rings and Clan War.
I'm
presently on the 7th Sea team, which will be out in late summer sometime.
It's
going to be a game about pirates and swashbucklers and musketeers and 
sorcerers and all that yummy stuff.

Besides my job, I want to do more static fiction. It takes a lot less time
to write,
and I'm a lot happier with the results I've received there than with my IF
projects.
So, I'm officially on IF hiatus until further notice.

Thanks again, folks. That award rocks!

	-Whizzard




From okblacke@usa.net Sat Feb 20 20:29:25 CET 1999
Article: 55803 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: okblacke@usa.net
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Scott Adams Adventures Online
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:25:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Lines: 20
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In article <7ahlhr$npq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  kderby@lni.net wrote:
> Thanks to the magic of Zplet, and the generosity of Scott Adams, the Scott
> Adams adventures are now online at www.javaarcade.com
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>

Last time I visited his homepage (late last year) he had stated clearly that
the games were NOT freeware, and that he expected to be paid if you want to
play them.

I can't locate his page now, though.  Anybody else visit him recently?

[ok]


-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    


From adam@princeton.edu Sun Feb 21 00:37:17 CET 1999
Article: 55864 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!146.186.149.193!news3.cac.psu.edu!cnn.Princeton.EDU!not-for-mail
From: adam@princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Dragons (was: All-too-normal games? (was: Not-so-normal Games))
Date: 20 Feb 1999 23:12:38 GMT
Organization: We don't need no steenking organization!
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <7anfh6$m5q$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
References: <798mvv$277$1@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <36C8C55A.DBC90197@erols.com> <01be5d08$c6e0dee0$7d72a1cf@francesco> <7andgu$bg5$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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In article <7andgu$bg5$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>,
Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>There is a general sort of weariness with stereotyped fantasy
>settings.  Some people are more than generally weary, but actively
>hostile and fed up with all kinds of fantasy (I guess most of these
>people are then ones who didn't like fantasy to begin with). For some
>reason, they seem to have chosen dragons as the symbol for all
>(supposedly) overused fantasy plot elements - a bit puzzling, since
>there aren't *that* many games with dragons around.

I'm all for tired, overused fantasy games.

I just hate $&*$(@ing dragons.

Can't stand 'em!  They shouldn't be allowed in society.  Can you imagine,
in some places, they even let them marry!  Each other, and with *people*!
Horrified, aren't you?

This world will be a better place when all the dragons are *DEAD*.  And
everyone with even a drop of that contaminating dragon blood.  And everyone
who ever acted like a liberal lilylivered dragon-lover, too!  

And then we'll move on to the unicorns, so you one-horned bastards better
keep your guards up and don't let me catch you in a dark alley with my
Creature-Bashing Bat.

Those righteous few remaining among you, join me and my cause:
"Get Out, Dragons!  Don't Annoy Me!  Now!" or its sister organization
"Fanatically United Creature Killers".  Just remember to chant their
acronyms when going on a rampage.

>You have a number of strikes against you, perhaps, but I have the
>feeling that the vocal anti-dragon people are quite a minority among
>voters.

Only because the moral fabric of society has gone to hell in a handbasket,
I say.  And that's another thing.  Handbaskets.  Even that pervo
Teletubby--you know the one I mean-- is carrying one now.  Death to all
handbasket-bearers, I say.  No.  Death's too good for 'em.  Hanging,
drawing, quartering, having their kneecaps gnawed off by a dragon, and
*then* death.  Oh.  Except all the dragons will be dead already.  So
scratch that step.  But the rest of it, definitely.

And then we will have clean, moral IF, purged of Fantastic Creatures and
other Abominations In The Nostrils Of The Divine.

Fumingly Yours,
Adam
-- 
adam@princeton.edu 
"There's a border to somewhere waiting, and a tank full of time." - J. Steinman


From lukas@inconnect.com Sun Feb 21 11:00:25 CET 1999
Article: 55797 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.210.46.218!news-west.eli.net!news.inconnect.com!not-for-mail
From: Salt Fudd <lukas@inconnect.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Identify Your Player (inspired by: Things Players Try)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:14:49 -0800
Organization: Internet Connect, Inc.
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <36CDB829.BB8F3FED@inconnect.com>
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In article <7afho0$feq@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>,
  notapf6@cornell.edu wrote:
> ANYWAY, I believe the original idea I was trying to bring up was: are there
> identifiable types of players? Do certain people *always do* something or
> another?
> 

From: The documentation too "A Bestiary of Adventurers"

The Pilferer
	The Pilferer is easily recognizable by the oversized backpack he always
wears and by the great proliferation of hands. Always carrying as much
as possible, the Pilferer's fatal weakness is the inability to figure
out what to do with all that stuff. The Pilferer almost seems to be able
to smell out any movable object. Whether true or not, be sure never to
leave anything important lying anywhere within the Pilferer's reach.

LIKES: Anything that isn't nailed down.
DISLIKES: Nails. But only when they hold something down.

The Wanderer
	The Wanderer is just there for the ride. She doesn't care about solving
puzzles or finding the answer to deadly riddles. All she cares about is
reading all the wonderful prose. The Wanderer would be the perfect
adventurer (at least from your point of view) if she didn't hae the
penchant for occasionally pushing a button or turning a crank where it
looks like the result might be interesting. Unfortunately it almost
always is.

LIKES: Long room descriptions
DISLIKES: Scott Adams games.

	-D


From lukas@inconnect.com Sun Feb 21 11:01:16 CET 1999
Article: 55826 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Salt Fudd <lukas@inconnect.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: >TAKE ALL "you are now holding the parser"
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:26:26 -0800
Organization: Internet Connect, Inc.
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John Escobedo wrote:

> And why is the 'The Pilferer' male and 'The Wanderer' female?

As far as I can tell, it just alternates sex down the document. For
example, here are the next two:

The Tourist
	The Tourist doesn't qualify as a true adventurer at all. He was on his
way to a nice King's Quest series game and got lost. Just show him the
direction out, and he'll go. The only problem is that the Tourist tends
to lose his way often in text games, and he might bumble into any number
of accidents on the way.

LIKES: Pretty pictures.
DISLIKES: Anything he's not able to do with the mouse.

The TryItAll
	The TryItAll looks like most adventurers until she spots a puzzle. At
that point she and the puzzle are inseperable as she tries any number of
things to find the solution, each more ridiculous than the last. You can
be sure, however, that sooner or later she will solve it and take the
loot.

LIKES: Multiple solutions to puzzle.
DISLIKES: A stock response to "Rub mongoose against hair, then put it on
the wall and pray to it."

	-D


From jce@seasip.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 21 11:02:22 CET 1999
Article: 55838 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: jce@seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: >TAKE ALL "you are now holding the parser"
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:01:25 GMT
Message-ID: <919526557.9440.1.nnrp-06.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk>
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:55838

"John Escobedo" <johnesco@earthlink.net> wrote:

> >TAKE ALL "you are now holding the parser"

  Very Big Cave Adventure (a game to which I am fond of referring in this
newsgroup) has two parsers in scope at various points.

  The game parser is called Trixie, and she is present all the time:

> EXAMINE TRIXIE
I am extraordinarily attractive. I am wearing a boater, navy blue
gymslip and black stockings.

  and one of the puzzles is the "brand-new sophisticated parser" that 
makes it impossible to do anything in a certain room:

You can also see:

A twelve-foot slavering troll brandishing a chainsaw
A jewel-encrusted goblet
A cornflakes packet
A Sophisticated Parser - only given away in family-size packs

> GET GOBLET

You cannot see a green goblin with vermilion spots here.

> EXAMINE TROLL

Troll: ignore it.

> GET PARSER

You can't see a parsimonious filing-clerk here.

------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html --------------------
John Elliott           |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?"
                       |SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!"    - The Goon Show 
:-------------------------------------------------------------------------)


From Arcum_Dagsson@spam-heads.spam-heads.roly-poly.spam-heads.at.hotmail.dot.com Sun Feb 21 11:02:48 CET 1999
Article: 55820 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Arcum_Dagsson@spam-heads.spam-heads.roly-poly.spam-heads.at.hotmail.dot.com (Arcum Dagsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Identify Your Player (inspired by: Things Players Try)
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In article <36CDB829.BB8F3FED@inconnect.com>, lukas@inconnect.com wrote:

> In article <7afho0$feq@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>,
>   notapf6@cornell.edu wrote:
> > ANYWAY, I believe the original idea I was trying to bring up was: are there
> > identifiable types of players? Do certain people *always do* something or
> > another?
> > 
> 
> From: The documentation too "A Bestiary of Adventurers"
> 
> The Pilferer
>         The Pilferer is easily recognizable by the oversized backpack he
always
> wears and by the great proliferation of hands. Always carrying as much
> as possible, the Pilferer's fatal weakness is the inability to figure
> out what to do with all that stuff. The Pilferer almost seems to be able
> to smell out any movable object. Whether true or not, be sure never to
> leave anything important lying anywhere within the Pilferer's reach.
> 
> LIKES: Anything that isn't nailed down.
> DISLIKES: Nails. But only when they hold something down.
> 
> The Wanderer
>         The Wanderer is just there for the ride. She doesn't care about
solving
> puzzles or finding the answer to deadly riddles. All she cares about is
> reading all the wonderful prose. The Wanderer would be the perfect
> adventurer (at least from your point of view) if she didn't hae the
> penchant for occasionally pushing a button or turning a crank where it
> looks like the result might be interesting. Unfortunately it almost
> always is.
> 
> LIKES: Long room descriptions
> DISLIKES: Scott Adams games.
> 
>         -D
From: my head...

The Hentai
   The hentai is there for one thing and one thing only. This character is
likely to use foul language as verbs, try to remove their clothing and
examine their genitals, and do things that are likely to generate messages
like "This is family entertainment, not a video nasty". General avoidance
of this character is usually a good idea.

Likes: I-O, Soft Porn, Stiffy Makane
Dislikes: "Real adventurers don't use that kind of language". A plot.

The Experimenter
   This character is always trying things out to see what they'll do if
used in strange ways(>PUT CUCUMBER IN NOSE). Give them two ways to solve a
puzzle and they will generally come up with a third way that would have
worked, if you had thought of it when you coded the game. While one of the
most frustrating of adventurers, this adventurer makes a woderful
beta-tester, if gotten to before a games release.

Likes: beta-testing, spells, any general-purpose items, pilferer-style
inventories (these characters are often pilferers, as well), xyzzy
Dislikes: unimplemented item uses, restrictions on inventory size,
linear-style games, "you can't do that with x", verb games
--Arcum Dagsson (insert separator for .sig here)
"Zaphod, last time I knew you, you were one of the richest men in the
Galaxy. What do you want money for?" 
"Oh, I lost it all."
"All of it? What did you do, gamble it away?" 
"No, I left it in a taxi."
"Stylish."


From jota@shell2.tiac.net Sun Feb 21 11:03:42 CET 1999
Article: 55832 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Admiral Jota <jota@shell2.tiac.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Identify Your Player (inspired by: Things Players Try)
Date: 20 Feb 1999 12:51:29 GMT
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Andy Fischer <apf6@cornell.edu> wrote:

> ANYWAY, I believe the original idea I was trying to bring up was: are there 
> identifiable types of players? Do certain people *always do* something or 
> another?

I don't think I've seen anyone describe my type of player yet, so I'll go
ahead with it. I'm the person who wound up spending about two weeks in the
first room of The Legend Lives. *Not* because it was hard to get out, but
simply because there was so much interesting stuff there. I'll milk each
location out of its last drop of prose by whatever means necessary before
I move on to another. 

When I start a game, my first command is '>X (first noun in opening
text)', and I work my way through the room description, examining every
noun mentioned in the description of every noun mention in any text the
game throws at me. And while I'm at it, I try acquiring anything that the
parser recognizes as an object, as well as fiddling with anything that
looks like it might do something interesting -- but if anything moves me
to another location, I'll immediately UNDO.

>X BUTTON

There's a shiny red button on the wall, next to a small plaque.

>X WALL

You see nothing special about the wall.

>X PLAQUE

It's a small sheet of brass, held to the wall by four screws. There
appears to be some text engraved on it.

>X SHEET

I don't know the word "sheet".

>X BRASS

It's a small sheet of brass, held to the wall by four screws. There
appears to be some text engraved on it.

>X SCREWS

It's a small sheet of brass, held to the wall by four screws. There
appears to be some text engraved on it.

>X TEXT

I don't know the word "text".

>GET PLAQUE

Leave the plaque where it is. You won't need it.

>UNSCREW IT

Leave the plaque where it is. You won't need it.

>READ IT

"Acme Super-Surprise Button"

>PUSH BUTTON

A trapdoor opens under your feet, and you slide down a slick metal chute,
until you land on a very solid stone floor.

Cellar
[snip]

>UNDO

And then, once I've completely done everything I can think of to do with
that room (at that point in time), I'll move on to the next one, and treat
it the same way. By this process I will attempt to survey every location
in the game, one by one. 

-- 
                                     _/<-= Admiral  Jota =->\_
                                      \<-= jota@tiac.net =->/


From mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu Sun Feb 21 11:03:52 CET 1999
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From: mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Identify Your Player (inspired by: Things Players Try)
Date: 20 Feb 1999 15:30:58 GMT
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All these dedicated puzzle-folk!

I think I'm pretty much the reverse.  My initial approach to most games
is to try to glide intuitively through the plot, examining things I
think the character would examine, chatting up the NPCs, avoiding
out-of-character actions like the plague, solving as many puzzles
as I can without breaking the flow.  (In games with little plot,
I chose "exploration" as the theme, and go out to see strange new
places.  But I don't rush about to map everything at once.)

Then I get stuck, and start casting around trying to identify the
area where gamethink will be the most rewarding.

I found "Babel" particularly delightful because it responded so 
well to this approach.  And I never get far with _Curses_
because, though I do find neat things to interact with, I have this
uneasy feeling that by moving about so quickly I'm surely putting
the game in an unwinnable state.

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu


From adam@princeton.edu Sun Feb 21 11:04:02 CET 1999
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From: adam@princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Identify Your Player (inspired by: Things Players Try)
Date: 20 Feb 1999 16:09:17 GMT
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In article <7amkfi$qqa$1@nntp3.u.washington.edu>,
Mary K. Kuhner <mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu> wrote:
>I think I'm pretty much the reverse.  My initial approach to most games
>is to try to glide intuitively through the plot, examining things I
>think the character would examine, chatting up the NPCs, avoiding
>out-of-character actions like the plague, solving as many puzzles
>as I can without breaking the flow.  (In games with little plot,
>I chose "exploration" as the theme, and go out to see strange new
>places.  But I don't rush about to map everything at once.)

>Then I get stuck, and start casting around trying to identify the
>area where gamethink will be the most rewarding.

I'm pretty much with Mary here.  Maybe a little different:

The Aesthete

Wanders around the game, poking at whatever catches his fancy.  Apt to
spend lots of time involved with a few irrelevant but intriguing objects.
Has a tendency to wander around doing everything that seems in character,
and when he runs out of things to do that way, <sniff> in derision and
scramble for the walkthrough.  The most concerned with mimesis of any of
the Types so far, though not necessarily a horticulturist (not that the
Hentai Gamer is either). [1]

Likes: opinionated NPCs, particularly NPCs with an opinion about the
player.  Non-stock but consistent restrictions on actions, e.g. "A
Waddington-Smythe-St.-Chomondoley would *never* pick up a mongoose as
filthy as *that*."
Dislikes: games requiring kleptomania to solve.  Games in which the NPCs
are obviously only locked doors waiting for the correct key.

Adam

[1] When a pun this bad comes along, you can't just leave it lying there.
-- 
adam@princeton.edu 
"There's a border to somewhere waiting, and a tank full of time." - J. Steinman


From lpsmith@rice.edu Wed Feb 24 11:32:47 CET 1999
Article: 55943 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: lpsmith@rice.edu (Lucian Paul Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Coming up with ideas!
Date: 23 Feb 1999 00:09:09 GMT
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Doeadeer3 (doeadeer3@aol.com) wrote:

: Sometimes I read a book and as I am reading, think, "what if..." 

: What if something different had happened? What if a different branch had been
: taken?

: The best use of this I have seen so far in current IF was Edifice, "What
: happened with that big block anyway?"

: Referring to the big block in 2001. What really happened between it and the
: neanderthals? how did it increase intelligence? How did it help human beings
: evolve?

If I may step in here,...

As I noted in the SPAG interview at the time, 'Edifice' actually derived
no inspiration from 2001.  No, really!

What it *did* draw inspiration from was a weird short from a film I saw
multiple times in grade school.  The film itself contained a bunch of
short snippets, and included one bit entitled, "The Edifice".  It was a
cartoon that showed the history of human accomplishment as taking place in
a tower, with later acheivements happening on higher levels than previous
acheivements.  I completely forget if anything like I portrayed in my game
was there; I do remember a series of levels turning black as a shadowy
army stormed through it (representing the Dark Ages, I presume), one level
where a mathematician discovered the '0', and the end of the short:  One
guy standing on the top, head in a nuclear cloud, shouting "Help!" as the
camera panned back, revealing the full height of the tower.

At some point when I was trying to think of ideas, this image flashed into
my head, and I thought, "Hey, wouldn't it be fun to play Man as he
discovered various key advances throughout history?"  My original idea was
to have what is now the first level of the Edifice be the 'outside' scene,
and that solving those puzzles would allow access to the inside ones.
Inspiration for the language puzzle derived in part from 'Civilization'
(since it was one of the advances), and a variety of games I had played
('So Far' being the most recent) where the protagonist interacted with
some non-English speakers.  I remember the disappointment I had at that,
and wishing that I could figure out the rudiments of their language.
Sometimes, if you want something, you have to do it yourself ;-)

Actually, I *still* haven't been able to *play* that puzzle.  Someone else
code it up so I can play it.  I'll be here when you get back ;-)

-Lucian


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Feb 24 11:33:05 CET 1999
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Coming up with ideas!
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Lucian Paul Smith (lpsmith@rice.edu) wrote:
> As I noted in the SPAG interview at the time, 'Edifice' actually derived
> no inspiration from 2001.  No, really!

> What it *did* draw inspiration from was a weird short from a film I saw
> multiple times in grade school.  The film itself contained a bunch of
> short snippets, and included one bit entitled, "The Edifice".  It was a
> cartoon that showed the history of human accomplishment as taking place in
> a tower, with later acheivements happening on higher levels than previous
> acheivements.  I completely forget if anything like I portrayed in my game
> was there; I do remember a series of levels turning black as a shadowy
> army stormed through it (representing the Dark Ages, I presume), one level
> where a mathematician discovered the '0', and the end of the short:  One
> guy standing on the top, head in a nuclear cloud, shouting "Help!" as the
> camera panned back, revealing the full height of the tower.

Just for the record, LPS isn't insane. I've seen that thing too. Recently,
even. (It's a bit of background video in an evolution-of-humanity exhibit
at the science museum near CMU.)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From alant@no.spam.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 24 18:42:52 CET 1999
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From: Alan Trewartha <alant@no.spam.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Coming up with ideas!
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:37:10 +0000
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In article <36D23D57.5739EBE5@pacbell.net>, Jim Aikin
<URL:mailto:jaikin@pacbell.net> wrote:
> 
> Matthew Murray wrote:
> 
> >         Unfortunately, I find myself running into a problem--how to come
> > up with ideas for a game!  There is some stuff I might like to do, but I
> > don't know how to fill it out enough to make a full game out of it.  I
> > would love to hear from authors of previous Inform titles, or people who
> > are working on them now, and find out how you came up with your ideas.
> > Any information about the conception or development of ideas would be
> > really helpful.

I am a previous perpetrator of such a thread and I'd like to add my
two penn'orth.

I seem to remember as a kid seeing a documentary about
,possibly, Infocom. It was certainly a bunch of guys creating interactive
fiction. The memory that sticks out for me was that they would brainstorm
(as Jim Aikin suggested in the thread) on a situation (here's the rub)
in a team. Brainstorming by yourself feels like trying to bleed at will.
My girlfriend (a text-adventure 'vet') has been very patient with me as I try
to rope her into helping me with a situation.

I remember the guys on the documentary wanted the player to get some object.
The setting, ancient egyptian I think, suggested a way to prevent the player
getting it

"It's part of a statue."

Then they said how could they remove it from the statue. Force was quickly
discounted as a 'degenerate' idea (i.e. its too universal a solution). Again
the setting suggested magic as a solution, which prompted one guy to say

"It's in the mouth of the statue and you have to wake it up, It yawns and out
it drops!"

Fabulous, so they had to make an animate statue spell, plus they also had
further interesting interaction possibilities with the living statue (a lion
I think).

I've written very little myself (just 2 chapters of something as yet
unreleased), but here's my strategy


Plot outline
~~~~~~~~~~~~
In creative writing classes (i.e. non IF) they tend to give you the spiel
about the classic elements of plot. If you hold-back your modernist
sensibility for a bit you are left with something along the line of:

situation, development, change-of-gear, resolution

all driven by the plot's 'motor'. In standard fiction a plot motor would be
the protagonists motivation. So why is the main character doing what s/he's
doing. Escape? Adventure? To earn a living? To gain someone's affection?
To find a map in an attic? (Hmmm) Plain curiosity is always a good one. Hey
it worked for Doctor Who every week.

Whatever you do there are certain scenes that you will want to happen (just
as Gareth Rees says in his essay) so scribble down some ideas. The more you
scribble the more you'll think of other possibilities. Don't keep it all in.
Waste some paper! When you've got a half decent plot begin to break it down
into manageable chunks / sub goals.


Plot sub goals
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've found that 'puzzles' have usually developed from plot goals (as
described above) and that they 9and their solutions) are created using the
context and mood of the setting.

Sometimes a groovy puzzle idea will half form in my head and I'll
keep it in the background and maybe it will lend itself to a situation -- or
just as likely, I will develop a situation in a direction that fits such a 
puzzle. Again scribble and jot down ideas.


Well I'm going to stop now, cos reading back over this, you're probably
better off reading Gareth's article anyway. OK, now is anyone interested
in beta testing just the first 2 chapters of an 8 chapter game? No, I
thought not. Now there's another puzzle, how to keep self-motivated to finish
a bastard long game with precious little feedback en-route!

Alan

-- 
Mail to alant instead of no.spam



From notapf6@cornell.edu Wed Feb 24 18:42:54 CET 1999
Article: 56012 of rec.arts.int-fiction
From: apf6@cornell.edu (Andy Fischer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Coming up with ideas!
Date: 24 Feb 1999 15:13:15 GMT
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>"It's in the mouth of the statue and you have to wake it up, It yawns and out
>it drops!"
>
>Fabulous, so they had to make an animate statue spell, plus they also had
>further interesting interaction possibilities with the living statue (a lion
>I think).
>

Actually, a tall basalt idol in the form of a huge rodent.. and the only 
interesting interaction that I remember is that it kills you if you do 
anything to it. But it was a nice puzzle.

BTW, it was in Spellbreaker, (from Infocom)

Andy



From adam@princeton.edu Fri Feb 26 17:43:31 CET 1999
Article: 55864 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: adam@princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Dragons (was: All-too-normal games? (was: Not-so-normal Games))
Date: 20 Feb 1999 23:12:38 GMT
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In article <7andgu$bg5$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>,
Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>There is a general sort of weariness with stereotyped fantasy
>settings.  Some people are more than generally weary, but actively
>hostile and fed up with all kinds of fantasy (I guess most of these
>people are then ones who didn't like fantasy to begin with). For some
>reason, they seem to have chosen dragons as the symbol for all
>(supposedly) overused fantasy plot elements - a bit puzzling, since
>there aren't *that* many games with dragons around.

I'm all for tired, overused fantasy games.

I just hate $&*$(@ing dragons.

Can't stand 'em!  They shouldn't be allowed in society.  Can you imagine,
in some places, they even let them marry!  Each other, and with *people*!
Horrified, aren't you?

This world will be a better place when all the dragons are *DEAD*.  And
everyone with even a drop of that contaminating dragon blood.  And everyone
who ever acted like a liberal lilylivered dragon-lover, too!  

And then we'll move on to the unicorns, so you one-horned bastards better
keep your guards up and don't let me catch you in a dark alley with my
Creature-Bashing Bat.

Those righteous few remaining among you, join me and my cause:
"Get Out, Dragons!  Don't Annoy Me!  Now!" or its sister organization
"Fanatically United Creature Killers".  Just remember to chant their
acronyms when going on a rampage.

>You have a number of strikes against you, perhaps, but I have the
>feeling that the vocal anti-dragon people are quite a minority among
>voters.

Only because the moral fabric of society has gone to hell in a handbasket,
I say.  And that's another thing.  Handbaskets.  Even that pervo
Teletubby--you know the one I mean-- is carrying one now.  Death to all
handbasket-bearers, I say.  No.  Death's too good for 'em.  Hanging,
drawing, quartering, having their kneecaps gnawed off by a dragon, and
*then* death.  Oh.  Except all the dragons will be dead already.  So
scratch that step.  But the rest of it, definitely.

And then we will have clean, moral IF, purged of Fantastic Creatures and
other Abominations In The Nostrils Of The Divine.

Fumingly Yours,
Adam
-- 
adam@princeton.edu 
"There's a border to somewhere waiting, and a tank full of time." - J. Steinman


From adam@princeton.edu Mon Mar  1 10:56:34 CET 1999
Article: 56113 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: adam@princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Two questions
Date: 26 Feb 1999 05:48:43 GMT
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In article <erkyrathF7quE0.7KD@netcom.com>,
Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:
>Doeadeer3 (doeadeer3@aol.com) wrote:
>> Well, to be honest., back then, I had fantasies about working at Infocom (it
>> seemed like the ideal job being PAID for writing games).
>C'mon, everyone, hands up if you fit that description.

I had an utterly ridiculous but amazingly ecstatic ten minutes of stupid
grinning after filling out a bug report the afternoon after downloading Dr.
Dumont after talking to Mike Berlyn, an actual honest-to-$DEITY
implementor, on the phone.

It's not often you really get to fulfill a childhood fantasy like that.

Adam
-- 
adam@princeton.edu 
"There's a border to somewhere waiting, and a tank full of time." - J. Steinman


From marsh@nettally.com Tue Mar  2 09:42:50 CET 1999
Article: 56166 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: marsh@nettally.com (Steven Marsh)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [YADP] Yet Another Dumont Post
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 04:35:21 GMT
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On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:15:26 -0800, "Mike Berlyn"
<mberlyn@cascadepublishing.com> wrote:

>Well, guys and gays, as the week grinds to an end, I am forced by my lovely
>and talented partner, Muffy, to post the following message:
>
>Dr. Dumont's Wild P.A.R.T.I., version 4.11, is now available for your
>purchase. Just a few tens and four ones will buy you a trip into a
>newly-revised micro-world, inhabited by people and puzzles the likes of
>which you will not experience elsewhere. More, bigger, better, debugged,
>delightful.

As a Cascade Mountain beta-slave, I -can- say the game is worthwhile.
I greatly enjoyed it; it definitely felt like a "traditional" Infocom
game (Hollywood Hijinx springs to mind, and that one made my top-10
list not-too-long ago. :b ).  And with online hints, you should have
considerably more hair than I did upon completing it. :)

(BTW, Don't let Muffy's ploy of milking more money than need be...
you'll only need a COUPLE of tens and four ones.  They want more?
Tell 'em to park your car. :b )

Steven Marsh
marsh@nettally.com



From mberlyn@cascadepublishing.com Tue Mar  2 09:48:03 CET 1999
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From: "Mike Berlyn" <mberlyn@cascadepublishing.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Market
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:12:49 -0800
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zarf,

Andrew Plotkin wrote in message ...
>Mike Berlyn (mberlyn@cascadepublishing.com) wrote:
>
>> We (Cascade Mtn. Pub) are still selling Once and
>> Future at a fairly good clip, and most of these sales are outside the
r*if
>> group. (Few "mainstream" people even know what a ng is, never mind r*if.)
We
>> are also selling Dr. Dumont's Wild P.A.R.T.I. quite well, though this is
>> common in the "blush of introduction" for a new product.
>
>That's very good news. I realize that exact numbers are sensitive

Numbers are sensitive at this point as, with our marketing approach and our
commitment to our products (we're not going to stop selling them when sales
go down, like most software and book publishers do), we are taking a bit of
the "long view." A year or so after OaF was launched we will look at sales
and our data points, such as they are, and attempt to determine what was the
best marketing approach. We sold more product (overall) in February than in
our launch month. For me, this is significant only if March is a solid
month, too. BTW, December was a disaster.

>, but can
>you give an estimate *who* you're reaching? Web surfers? People reading
>the gaming mags you're advertising in?

You know, that's a good question, one for which I have no real answer. I can
share some data points, though:
1. Orders went up after we were listed in the MSN search engine.
2. Orders went up after our ad appeared in Games Magazine.
3. Orders for books did not reflect the same spike in sales as software did,
and ads were better placed and more plentiful for books. My guess here is
that books are harder to sell than IF.

>Access to that non-R*IF market is, of course, exactly where Cascade will
>be of great benefit to IF gaming.


At this point, no one should quit their day jobs and do what we're doing. We
are _still_ building our marketing and our market. While we still depend
_somewhat_ on r*if sales, we are seeing, now, a greater number (2:1) of
sales from outside the r*if area. We expect this ratio to continue to change
as more and more people on the web become aware of our existence. Our
current problems include getting listed on Yahoo, Snap, etc.

BTW, review copies sent to all the major online and print magazines
generated 0 reviews and 0 mentions.

As a result of the return-on-investment (i.e.: the ads cost more than they
brought in -- the Games Magazine was extremely expensive), we will be
looking for other ways to bring our products to the attention of non-r*if
customers.

We are committed to making this work, and are encouraged by the sales and
enthusiasm we have seen across the boards.

If anyone has any realistic suggestions, please feel free to email me @:
mberlyn@cascadepublishing.com

-- Mike
http://www.cascadepublishing.com





From dylanw@demon.net Tue Mar  2 09:49:14 CET 1999
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From: dylanw@demon.net (Dylan O'Donnell)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] Replacing the UNDO verb
Date: 28 Feb 1999 20:25:33 +0000
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Ricardo Dague <trikiw@hotmail.com> writes:
> Rob Keegan wrote:
> > For a game I'm working on I would like to disable or replace the UNDO verb.
> > I've searched through the library files but I can't find an UndoSub or
> > facimile to replace as you can with the save verb. What am I missing?
> 
> Undo is handled specially in the Keyboard routine in
> parserm.h. [...]
>
> So to change it, you'll have to hack parserm.h at those
> lines, or else replace the Keyboard and AfterGameOver
> routines.

If you want to disable it entirely, I've found that the following
works nicely (with the 6/7 libraries, at least):

[ AfterLife;				
    undo_flag = 0;			
];

[ AfterPrompt;
    undo_flag = 0;
];

Object 	LibraryMessages
 with   before [;
         Miscellany:
            if (lm_n == 6)
            {
                if (deadflag) "[No undo after death. Sorry!]";
                else "[Undoing actions is not permitted in this game.
                Sorry!]";
            }
];

Essentially, what this does is persuade the game that the interpreter
it's running on doesn't support UNDO, and hijacks the message that
produces.

But! Be _sure_ that this is what you want to do, and that it's
justified; nothing leads to angry mobs of IFers with torches gathering
outside your gates faster than taking away their UNDO without good
cause.

-- 
:   Dylan O'Donnell                :   Stay alert!                       :
:   Demon Internet Ltd             :   Trust no-one!                     :
:   Resident, Forgotten Office     :   Keep your laser handy!            :
:   http://www.fysh.org/~psmith/   :     -- Greg Costikyan, "Paranoia"   :


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Mar  3 11:28:05 CET 1999
Article: 56273 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Why so little Puzzleless IF?
Message-ID: <erkyrathF7x7E1.98J@netcom.com>
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Stark (Stark4(delete-this-&-the-4)@foxinternet.net) wrote:

> Having read through some of the threads on the topic of puzzles and
> puzzle-less IF that have been posted over the years, it seems that many
> people have believed that text based IF >has< to have puzzles in order for
> it to hold people's attention and be enjoyable.  Without puzzles it would
> be boring, without puzzles there'd be no point to the interactivity and one
> might as well just go read a book.

I don't think anyone still believe that's an absolute truth. We've seen
the same examples you have, so to an extent you're arguing a straw man.

But I, for a start, *like* puzzles. I write games with puzzles in them. I
write what I would enjoy playing. The direct answer to your question "why
so little" is that many other authors like puzzles too.

The more interesting answer, at least for me, is that I call a very wide
range of things "puzzles". I think IF *has* to have plot-scenes that
involve the player, that involve *participation* by the player, that hold
the attention. It's not that there's no point to the interactivity without
puzzles; it's that the puzzles *are* the interactivity. 

I don't consider _Photopia_ to be puzzle-free.

And -- it goes without saying :) -- a "puzzle" does not have to be a
meaningless object-manipulation, interactivity divorced from the fiction.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


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From: glasser@DELETEuscom.com (David Glasser)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Why so little Puzzleless IF?
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Stark <Stark4(delete-this-&-the-4)@foxinternet.net> wrote:

*** Photopia Spoilers ***


> By my definition of "puzzle", Photopia is almost puzzle free.  There are a
> couple places while playing the Wendy character when one might possibly
> have not known what to do, but that's about it.

The main puzzle (or puzzles) of Photopia are not just interaction with
the parser, in my opinion.  Rather, they are mind-puzzles: what the hell
is going on?  The satisfaction of figuring that out is just as good as
unlocking a gate, if not better, and I would call it a puzzle.  Just
because it's not programmed into the game doesn't mean it doesn't
happen.

-- 
David Glasser: glasser@NOSPAMuscom.com http://onramp.uscom.com/~glasser/
DGlasser@ifMUD:orange.res.cmu.edu 4001 | raif FAQ http://come.to/raiffaq
"Also, if/when is David Glasser v2 coming out, and will it support
 HTML-TADS?  Version 1 is pretty buggy." --Steven Marsh on raif


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Mar  3 11:33:00 CET 1999
Article: 56336 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Why so little Puzzleless IF?
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Adam Cadre (ac@adamcadre.ac) wrote:
> Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> > And when an author plans a bunch of words on a sheaf of paper, he's
> > not intending page-turning to be difficult or involving; he's
> > intending it to be reflexive and transparent.
> > 
> > (I can think of at least one book that's a counterexample, by the
> > way. :-)

> The Little Golden Book featuring Grover from Sesame Street, right?

Oh, good one. That certainly counts.

I was thinking of a book called _Encyclopedia_. The author (I don't
remember his name) came up with this detailed plot, many people
interacting over the course of several years. Then he wrote everything in
the form of *encyclopedia entries*. Like (this is just an example, I
haven't seen the book in a while):

Eggbeater: Stainless steel, Sears mail-order model. Final straw in an
argument over kitchen decor between *Fred* and *Ethyl* in 1961. Remained
in Ethyl's basement on *Walken Street*, after she moved out, until 1967;
then purchased at a *yard sale* by *Helen*, who could no longer afford 
full-price kitchen equipment.

Okay, that's a goofy example, but the whole book was like that. In (of
course) alphabetical order. You could eventually assemble this rich
detailed history of the town, with lots of characters, but only by
frantically flipping around trying to trace connections.

Yes, the whole thing is ripe for hypertext conversion. One of my friends
keeps trying to contact the author or publisher and get permission.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu Wed Mar  3 11:35:13 CET 1999
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From: mkkuhner@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Why so little Puzzleless IF?
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In article <36DC0AA3.64C4@adamcadre.ac>, Adam Cadre  <news@adamcadre.ac> wrote:
>Andrew Plotkin wrote:
>> And when an author plans a bunch of words on a sheaf of paper, he's
>> not intending page-turning to be difficult or involving; he's
>> intending it to be reflexive and transparent.
 
>> (I can think of at least one book that's a counterexample, by the
>> way. :-)

>The Little Golden Book featuring Grover from Sesame Street, right?

Gosh!  I'd forgotten that.  What a disturbing little book.  I wonder if
you could do the equivalent in a text adventure?  I guess "A New Day"
toys with the idea a little bit.

(For those that haven't encountered it, Grover spends the entire book
trying to dissuade the reader from turning the next page.  I believe
the title was along the lines of "There's a Monster at the End of 
this Book".)

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Mar  4 09:51:23 CET 1999
Article: 56413 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Why so little Puzzleless IF?
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Darin Johnson (darin@usa.net.NOSPAM) wrote:
> erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) writes:

> > I would ask you to distinguish between the IF we have, and the IF we
> > *want*.

> To be truthful, I don't think any digital text is going to be anywhere 
> as good as printed word for quite a long time.  By "good", I don't
> necessarily mean quality, I mean easy to read, easy to use, easy on
> the eyes, etc.

I agree with this. You mean it as an analogy, right? I don't think the
analogy is perfect. I can't give my audience a better display, but I can
try to give them better writing.

> The basics of current IF don't seem to be leading to anything vastly
> different.  To me, interactive fiction isn't necessarily having to
> specify every little action, but should be like a novel where
> occasionally you redirect the paths of a character.  Other people may
> differ, I fully agree.  But I like having a story told to me, I don't
> like having to work to extract the story in bits and pieces.  I'd
> rather have the story continue along on automatic and be able to say
> "wait, let's take a closer look at what's happening over there", than
> to have to explicitly take a closer look at everything all the time.
> That's one of the things that really felt wrong about AMFV for me.

You're still wavering between "This isn't what I want" and "This isn't
good." 

> In short, non-linear doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with
> story-telling (in my view of course). 

In my view, practically nothing goes hand-in-hand with anything. Have you
noticed that I get most vehement when someone says "Well, of course Y can
only be done with/without Z."? 

> Someone may try to put the two together, but will it feel natural? 

It has thus far.

> And can it be done with amateur writers?

Uh, just about all writers of fiction are amateur writers. Including many
of the ones I really admire. And *all* of them *started* as amateur
writers.

In the past year I've seen two amateur, unpublished, sit-at-home-and-
write-a-novel friends sell a first novel to a publisher.

No, I want to make that stronger. This may seem arrogant as hell coming
>from  me, but I don't believe in talent. I really don't. There is desire
and there is practice. (Mostly practice.) The only way IF could fail to
produce brilliant work -- and I include current-style IF, yea verily, even
old-fashioned cave-crawling IF -- is if we all decided it couldn't
possibly be done.

--Z





-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Apr  6 10:18:28 CEST 1999
Article: 57986 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Glulx preliminary specification
Message-ID: <erkyrathF9I057.CMM@netcom.com>
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http://www.eblong.com/zarf/glulx/

I'm really proud of myself. I've managed to finish an entirely new
text-adventure VM without even mentioning to anybody here that I've been
working on it. (Although I admit it's been kind of an open secret on
IFmud.) Now that it's finally almost ready to go, I thought I'd let you
all know about it.

Actually, the VM itself isn't all that exciting -- it's just a generic
32-bit VM with Glk I/O, about as simple as a machine can get. It has a few
specializations for IF, but not as many as even the Z-machine (which was
already pretty generic.)

It's only interesting because I've got a version of the Inform compiler
that compiles to it. Standard Inform language, nearly the standard Inform
libraries; the only differences are that just about all the Z-machine
limits are gone. Global variables, local variables, properties,
attributes, classes, amount of property data, various others I'm
forgetting. Most are now unlimited; or at least jacked up a few orders of
magnitude. And more orders of magnitude can be added with compiler
upgrades. The VM (and the interpreters) don't have to change.

(My great gratitude to Graham, if you'll pardon the alliteration, for his
permission and support in this project. And for the code base.)

------------------

I really, really wanted to have this finished by April 1. Didn't happen.
So much for the dramatic ironies.

However, I can offer you the following:

One (1) Glulx VM specification, medium-done but not entirely browned. All
the core functionality is there -- the arithmetic, logic, and control
opcodes. The Glk interface isn't set yet. I'm still tossing around ideas
for additional useful toys like hardware sorting and searching. I haven't
come up with anything useful for text compression, so strings are all in
plaintext for the moment.

One (1) interpreter, medium-rare. This is "glulxe" (for Glulx-execute.) It
is, of course, a Glk program, so you can start playing with it on any
machine with a Glk library. On the other hand, you don't have any game
files to run. Again, the core functionality is there, but not fancy stuff
like save/restore/undo.

One (1) Glulx disassembler, "glulxdump", in working order. 

Regrettably, I can't offer you even a taste of the Inform compiler for
Glulx. Much too bloody-rare to pass USDA inspection. Here's where it is: 

Arithmetic, conditionals, and control statements -- the C-like subset of
Inform -- is pretty much done. Integers, strings, functions, and arrays
are all usable.

You can compile objects and classes, but the language support is
half-done. Attributes work, but the veneer code that handles properties
isn't there yet. The parent(), child(), and sibling() functions work, and
also the (a in b) test. The move, remove, and objectloop statements don't.

I haven't even looked at the parts of Inform that compile the dictionary
and grammar tables.

The Inform source I'm working with is pretty grotesque. It's all over
#ifdefs and comments. Eventually Graham and I will merge the source back
into a single Inform distribution that can compile to either Z-code or
Glulx. But that process hasn't started yet.

The Inform library parser will also have to be worked over to understand
both the Glulx and Z-code dictionary/grammar tables. The rest of the
library will remain almost unchanged, however.

Not all the limits can really be raised as high as they can theoretically
go. For example, the compiler is hardwired to 56 attributes per object.
There's no reason that couldn't be raised as high as you need -- or
lowered, if you want to save memory -- the VM doesn't care. But it's a
#defined constant in the Inform source, so you'd have to recompile the
compiler to change it. Eventually this will be a command-line switch; it's
not yet.

And there are all sorts of little corners and knuckles that I haven't
gotten around to yet. Like the read statement. You could bypass the read
statement and call the Glk line-input API directly, except of course that
I haven't sorted out the Glk interface in the Glulx VM...

But it's all coming together.

Not bad for a month's work.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Apr  6 10:25:47 CEST 1999
Article: 58010 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] Glulx preliminary specification
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David Given (dg@tao.co.uk) wrote:
> where *do* you get your names? Glk, Glulx, Blorb, Floo... 

It's a kind of magic.

neilc@norwich.edu writes:
> This is so cool I have to go to the bathroom!

But not that kind.

Simon 'tufty' Stapleton (nobody@no.bloody.where) wrote:
> Hello world looks like this.
>
> 47 6C 75 6C  00 01 00 00  00 00 01 00  00 00 01 00
> 00 00 02 00  00 00 01 00  00 00 00 30  00 00 00 00
> E0 48 65 6C  6C 6F 20 77  6F 72 6C 64  00 00 00 00
> C1 00 00 72  03 00 00 00  20 31 00 00  00 00 00 00
> and then pad it to 256 bytes

Evin C Robertson (ecr+@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:

> 6c47 6c75 0100 0000 0000 0001 0000 0001
> 0000 0002 0000 0001 0000 2000 0000 0000
> 00c0 7200 3001 2081 0001 0000 0000 0000
> 48e0 6c65 6f6c 7720 726f 646c 0000 0000
[and then pad it to 256 bytes]

Geez, you people. 

Thank you. I suppose I should post a genuine Inform-generated "Hello
world", but it'd look pretty much the same.

A couple of footnotes to the above:

Evin did his hexdump by 16-byte hex values, so swap those byte pairs if
you're typing it in by hand.

Evin, you have a spurious "01" byte after the "quit" opcode. This is
harmless, since it never gets executed, but "quit" takes no operands.

Simon's code doesn't disassemble properly in glulxdump. This is a bug in
glulxdump, not in Simon's code. (Glulxdump assumes that functions come
before strings in ROM. Otherwise, it can't tell when the last function
ends, and it goes zooming off to the end of file and crashes.)

You both skipped the checksum, which is not surprising, since Glulxe
doesn't check it. (My Inform code doesn't generate it yet, either.)

Also, a correct Glulx program must open a Glk window and set the current
stream before it prints anything. The current version of Glulxe does this
for you, since it doesn't understand the "glk" opcode yet. However, the
final release *won't*. So both the above programs will eventually fail.

Oh, and don't either of you people believe in newlines?

> There's a minor bug: op_quit is missing from lookup_operandlist in
operand.c

True. The other game-state opcodes as well.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Apr  6 11:26:12 CEST 1999
Article: 58071 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] Glulx preliminary specification
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Joe Mason (jcmason@uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
> Actually, I have a few more technical questions as well, but I haven't read the
> spec yet.  I'm mainly wondering how this thing scales - is it able to run on
> Pilots and other small hardware (I'm more interested in supporting portables
> than legacy systems)?  

The Glulx interpreter is much smaller than a Z-code interpreter, since
there's no object-handling code, and no interface code.

When you add in a Glk library, it swells back up some, because Glk has
more capability in general than Z-machine I/O. However, a Glk library on a
PDA will itself be pretty small, so I think the total is about comparable.

Glulx game files will be larger than Z-code files. Some of this is because
the object-handling code is all in the library -- but this is really a
very small effect. Most of the increase is because the assembly code has
many four-byte constants and addresses, where Z-code would have two-byte
or one-byte values. The instructions are less efficiently packed, too. I'm
estimating that the executable part of the game file will be about twice
as large as the executable part of an equivalent Z-code file. 

Ditto for the object/property/dictionary data, since that has to store
four-byte values as well.

The text data will be the same size or smaller than Z-compressed text.
(Because if I can't find a better algorithm, I'll *use* Z-compression.)

However, I don't think any of this is a big deal, because the primary use
of Glulx is for Inform games that are too big for V8 *already*. (Use more
than 512K of data, or more than 64K of RAM.) So being too big for a PDA
is, to some degree, only a problem if it was a problem already. 

(The secondary use of Glulx is for Inform games that want to use Glk I/O.
Since nobody's gotten to a PDA Glk library yet, I don't know how much
capability that is -- would PalmGlk be able to display PNG images and play
sound files? And multiple windows would get even more amazingly cramped
than a Palm is already. So I can't say how much of a temptation Glulx
would be on the Palm, compared to the factor-of-two game size penalty.)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Apr  6 12:29:16 CEST 1999
Article: 58080 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: [Glulx] Addenda
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Some addenda and footnotes. These are questions which people may or may
not be wondering about, but which I wrote up answers to anyway.

* Do I want to kill the Z-machine? 

No. Z-code is much more compact for any game which fits in it, and which
doesn't need unfettered Glk I/O. Also, there are lots of Z-code
interpreters out there -- it's still a more portable format than
Glk/Glulx.

* What about Z-code V6? (The graphics/sound version of the Z-machine.)

V6 has long been hampered by lack of interpreters. As far as I know, only
Kevin Bracey's Acorn interpreter handles the full range of V6 capabilities
with Blorb support. This is probably why people have not tried to write V6
Inform games.

Obviously, I've been working on that problem sideways, by implementing Glk
and now Glulx. Inform Glulx will be the first pathway to writing
multimedia games in Inform that run on all the major platforms.

So, in a sense, I've bypassed V6. I have nothing against V6, really. But
it's not the solution I've been putting my time into.

* What about Z-code V9 and V10?

These are proposals that were kicked around the Z-machine mailing list
early this year. They addressed many of the same concerns that Glulx does:
32-bit addressing and data, but more directly descended from the Z-machine
(and with Z-machine V5/8 and V6 I/O models.)

As far as I know, nobody is working on V9 or V10, either on interpreters
or compilers. Again, I have nothing against them. However, I don't expect
there to be much pressure anymore to get them moving (unless I completely
flake out on Glulx Inform, or get hit by a car, or something.)

* Should there be interpreters that understand both Z-code and Glulx?

I'm ambivalent about this. Glulx is not "V10"; it's different from Z-code
in almost every single detail. (And several high-level issues, too.) I
think it's important to maintain a different semantic file type (DOS file
suffix, Mac file type code, MIME type, visual icons, etc.) 

I am going to keep Glulxe (my Glulx interpreter) as a standalone product,
not understanding any other formats. This is because it's a reference
implementation and I want to keep it clean. I will probably also leave
MaxZip/XZip as they are, not extend them to understand Glulx.

However, if you want to release a hybrid interpreter, go for it. The Glulx
spec is (I hope) Really Easy to write an interpreter for. Or you can
modify the Glulxe source, or incorporate it into another program.

* Acknowledgements:

My eternal gratitude goes to Adam "you're smoking crack" Thornton for
being the best straight man I've had for months.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Apr  6 16:54:27 CEST 1999
Article: 58108 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Glulx] Possible Compression Scheme
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David Glasser (glasser@uscom.com) wrote:

> Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:

> > By the way, my modem doesn't go any faster than 19.2. And I own an
> > IF-capable computer with two megabytes of storage -- upgradable to eight.
> > Saving 50K in a large game is worth some effort.

> So, if I'm getting you right, the point of compressed strings isn't file
> size, it's RAM requirements.

Well, I was talking about the Palm, which stores file *in* RAM.

> (It'll just happen to help file sizes, though running it through gzip or
> whatever would do just as well for that. 

Not quite. Decompressing adds user annoyance, since we don't have
interpreters that can run "game.z5.gz" or anything. On the Mac, I keep
games sitting around uncompressed, not in a StuffIt archive.

But yes, run-time RAM is at least as important as storage size. This is
why I'm not excited by the "decompress all the text at startup time"
solution.

> I think I read somewhere that
> though TADS files are larger than Inform's, they compress better.  Or
> something.)

I would guess so.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From fake-mail@anti-spam.address Tue Apr  6 16:54:34 CEST 1999
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 glasser@uscom.com (David Glasser) wrote:

> (It'll just happen to help file sizes, though running it through gzip or
> whatever would do just as well for that.  I think I read somewhere that
> though TADS files are larger than Inform's, they compress better.  Or
> something.)

 TADS files should compress better. Mike Roberts, as I recall,
intentionally arranged the TADS file format so that game files would be
efficiently compressed using typical zip-type compression schemes.
Z-machine files, being tightly munged 5-bit sort of files, shouldn't
compress as well.

 - Neil K.

-- 
 t e l a  computer consulting + design   *   Vancouver, BC, Canada
      web: http://www.tela.bc.ca/tela/   *   email: tela @ tela.bc.ca


From erkyrath@netcom.com Sun Apr 11 09:08:44 CEST 1999
Article: 58295 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Glulx] Slight update
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George Caswell (tetsujin@adamant.res.wpi.net) wrote:

>    1)  Why the move toward a more generic VM design, rather than a VM design
> including an explicit notion of (for example) resources or objects

Because the Z-machine ran out of properties. Basically. No object format
is going to last nearly as long as I want the VM format to last. No object
format is going to be good for more than one language, either. (And I
don't want this to be Inform-only.)

I looked at the way Inform worked, and decided that operations like "get
parent" and "get property" were really just array lookups. Implementing
them as specific opcodes isn't going to save any game file size, because
it's one instruction either way. Ditto for "attribute lookup", which is
"get one bit". Fine.

Property tables are more complicated, but what's an efficient way to do
that? Probably binary search. Okay, if we put in a binary search opcode,
that's the same as a specific property-lookup opcode. And if I *don't* (I
haven't yet), then I have instead a call to a binary-search *function*,
which is only a couple of hundred bytes itself. The call itself is
still only one instruction, replacing one property-lookup instruction.

And the interpreter stays simple. This is good. Glulxe is way smaller
than any other IF interpreter, even if you compare it only to the non-I/O
part of the other interpreters. I think it's *better* suited to small
machines.

>    2)  Any particular reason the instructions have variable length? 

Most instructions should be one byte. But the Z-machien ran out of
opcodes, or at least had trouble working more into its addressing-mode
system. I don't want to run out at 256.

> I know no
> one's going to be building a hardware CPU for this machine, but interpreter
> design is still simplified by a constant instruction length.

It's about six lines of C code. And the complexity doesn't make anything
*else* more complex; it's isolated.

>    3)  Also wondering how the machine will handle implementations limitations
> - few systems will be able to supply the maximum amount of memory the VM can
> handle, and some won't be able to come close...  is there anything in the spec
> to handle this?

The amount of memory needed is known at game-start time. If the
interpreter can't provide enough memory to hold the VM state, it says so
and bails, immediately. 

(I'm considering putting in an opcode for dynamic memory increase. It was
in the original plan, adn I've already had one request for it. But, of
course, when you call such an opcode, you msut check whether it succeeded
or failed; the terp may not be able to fulfil it.)

> (Currently thinking glk is the way to go for his Z-machine implementation...
> but a new implementation of it, for Gtk)

You mean a GTK Glk library? I know one person started working on one, but
I have no idea how it's going.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From mjr-SEENOTE@hotmail.com Mon Apr 12 14:22:47 CEST 1999
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Coorlim@yahoo.com wrote in message <370D06F7.162A@yahoo.com>...
>...is the error I've been getting.  Maybe someone can help me.

You can fix this error by using the -mp compiler switch to set the parse
node pool size.  Set it to something like 60000:

tc -mp 60000 mygame.t

The compiler pre-allocates a fixed pool of memory for internal structures
(called "parse nodes") that it creates while parsing source code.  Certain
types of statements and expressions use lots of space in this pool, so you
sometimes need to increase the limit.  You're not running into any inherent
limit in TADS; it's just a compiler configuration limit.

(You might wonder why the compiler doesn't just solve the problem itself by
allocating more memory.  This aspect of the compiler's architecture is meant
to make the compiler work better in small memory environments by giving you
lots of control over exactly how the compiler uses memory, so that you can
tailor the compiler's memory usage to fit your game's needs; it also makes
the memory management simpler, which reduces the code size.  Given today's
large memory sizes, this type of custom configuration is a lot more trouble
than it's worth; T3 compilers are likely to be largely self-configuring.)

--Mike





From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Apr 13 09:43:19 CEST 1999
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George Caswell (tetsujin@adamant.res.wpi.net) wrote:
> [no specific support for objects or properties in Glulx]
>    I suppose.  But if you keep the VM's abstraction level so low, the
> interpreter can't do much of anything sophisticated in the way of managing its
> resources in a low-memory situation. 

True. But the Z-machine was *designed* for low-memory situations, and
therefore Inform was too, and therefore so can be Glulx.

You can't efficiently swap objects and properties to disk, true, but you
can page ROM and swap RAM without worrying about the contents. (Infocom's
Z-machine terps did this.) This works nearly as well, and it's *much*
simpler to implement.

The thing is, if you start putting in abstractions for objects and
properties and stuff, it's not worth doing it half-assed. And if you do it
*whole*-assed, as it were, you have a design much closer to TADS than the
Z-machine.

As I said, way up the thread, some problems are more suited to that
approach. But adapting Inform to such a system would be *far* more work --
and I think the results would be largely the same, from the author's and
player's point of view. 

Remember, my task here was to remove the limits in Inform, while leaving
the language unchanged. The Glulx VM was entirely an offshoot of that
task. (The fact that almost nothing in it is Inform-specific is just
because I'm cool. :-)

> I was wondering about the possibilities
> of giving an IF VM the abstractions of resources and databases, as in (for
> example) PalmOS.  If data for the game were stored as resources, and not
> actually found anywhere within the game's memory map itself, the interpreter
> would have the ability to store (for example) string references in the most
> advantageous format for its internal use. 

But taking advantage of that advantageousness requires much deeper
changes, at every level. Consider the fact that Inform games don't do much
string manipulation. This is because it's nearly impossible in the
Z-machine. So I didn't go out of my way to make it efficient in Glulx
(although I did go out of my way to make it easier.) The Inform Way is to
represent such tasks with functions that *generate* strings, and that's
the mindset I took.

> > >    2)  Any particular reason the instructions have variable length? 
> > 
> > Most instructions should be one byte. But the Z-machien ran out of
> > opcodes, or at least had trouble working more into its addressing-mode
> > system. I don't want to run out at 256.
> > 
>    Right...  but if you're already admitting that 256 isn't enough, why bother
> to have any 1-byte opcodes at all?

Saves space. A list of common opcodes accounts for 95% of the instruction
in a given program; and that list is less than 256 opcodes long. (Less
than 128 long, in fact, fortunately for my encoding scheme.)

> > > I know no
> > > one's going to be building a hardware CPU for this machine, but interpreter
> > > design is still simplified by a constant instruction length.
> > 
> > It's about six lines of C code. And the complexity doesn't make anything
> > *else* more complex; it's isolated.
> > 
>    Well what I'm getting at is that there's no way to skip n instructions
> without examining each instruction to determine its length. 

True. (This is the result of more decisions than the 1/2/4 byte opcode, by
the way. The operand addressing stuff is considerably more complicated.
But it's the same issues -- saving game file space first, saving
interpreter complexity second (but not letting it get too overboard in
any event).)

> This sort of
> thing seems as though it could be handy for debuggers and such, since all
> instructions would be word-aligned and there would never be a possibility of
> reading opcodes from the middle of an index.  I haven't exactly implemented
> any VM's lately, so I don't know how much of an advantage RISC-like opcodes
> would really be in this context...  But still, it's a cleaner design, and I
> have to believe that's a good thing.

I flipped my bits and I took my chances. Nothing has gone too horribly
wrong. (And I did make some choices in favor of simplicity. The Z-machine
has some variable-*format* opcodes -- an instruction which can take
different numbers of operands. I ripped that out by the roots, even
though it meant added complexity in the compiler.)

>    How is the memory-needed computed when the game is compiled?  I know the
> size of functions, static data, etc. is known--   but the compiler can't
> account for the required stack space or dynamic allocation (if any) required
> by the programmer's algorithms...

The programmer must declare the stack size; that's one of the values in
the game file header.

As to dynamic allocation, that's going outside the system. You may not get
it. That's why you have to check if it succeeded.

In other words, the system allows for in-advance memory requirements, and
dynamic memory requirements. The former is handled automatically, and
failure means not running the program. The latter is not handled by the
interpreter; failures must be handled by the program. That seems to cover
all the pertinent cases, yes?

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From pictondj@my-dejanews.com Thu Apr 15 10:43:36 CEST 1999
Article: 58382 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: David Picton <pictondj@my-dejanews.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: [Announce] Adventure 551
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:16:53 GMT
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I have uploaded a new TADS port of the Colossal Cave Adventure, derived (with
his blessings) from David Baggett's port (Colossal Cave Revisited) of the
original 350-point game.

This game is really two games in one!

In its default ('newgame') mode, the game will play David Long's extended
551-point version of the game, based on the Fortran sources (but with a few
embellishments added by me.)

Alternatively, you can select the 'oldgame' mode to play the traditional
350-point game, based on CCR but with significant bugfixes and enhancements.

In both the 350-point and 551-point the game supports modern IF interpreter
features including the use of prepositions (put lamp in sack) and the
ability to examine objects (x lamp).

The source code contains many examples which may be useful to authors, e.g.
code for a sack-of-holding.

A complete distribution, with game file, source and walkthrough scripts, has
been uploaded to ftp.gmd.de as a tarred, gzipped distribution:

ftp://ftp.gmd.de/incoming/if-archive/ad551_101_newer.tar.gz

In due course it will be probably be moved to

ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/ad551_101.tar.gz

All comments, bug reports, suggestions etc. will be very welcome.

--
David Picton, University of Birmingham, England
pictondj@my-dejanews.com, dave@aps5.ph.bham.ac.uk

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From okblacke@usa.net Thu Apr 15 11:04:37 CEST 1999
Article: 58401 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: okblacke@usa.net
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: One- or no- object games.
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:56:10 GMT
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In article <7f2hn9$irv@newsops.execpc.com>,
  "Chad Schultz" <chadschultz@yahoo.com> wrote:
> We've all seen several single room games, and plenty of games with one or no
> NPCs, but I have yet to see a game with only *one* inanimate object. Such a
> game would have to have many NPCs, and dozens of responses for most NPCs,
> not to mention the object!

Well the Art Show (or whatever it's called) is all about single inanimate
objects, though I suppose not really =games=.

Your supposition--that it would have to have many NPCs--is not necessarily
true. The player could interact entirely with the environment, e.g., a maze
that must be escaped.  (This could be as primitive as "you are in a maze of
twisty passages, all alike" or complex and subtle in myriad ways.)  Other
possibilities exist, as well.  (See "The Space Under The Window".)

If these seem like odd or contrived examples, I hasten to point out that a
universe populated with NPCs but only one manipulable object would be equally
odd.

> Then there is the possibility of a game with *no* objects. This game would
> have to have social puzzles for the most part, although there could be some
> standard puzzles.

Not at all.  Colossal Cave could be redone with no objects.  Don't believe
me? All the objects could be replaced by rooms with special properties that
transferred to the player.  For example, going to the grate once could give
the player a "light" property that lasted for X turns.	When it started to
wear out, the player could have to brave the pirate's maze to find another
room that transferred the "light" property--simulating the lamp and battery
situation.

This could get very detailed, too.  For example, in CC, if you needed the
batteries, you had to take the coins to the vending machine (located in the
maze). You could be required to visit the "coin location" before visiting the
"vending machine location" or else the light property wouldn't be transferred.

Or you could only pass through the snake temple if you visited the bird
temple, but you couldn't go into the bird temple unless you'd visited the egg
temple and not if you'd been to the cat temple recently.  (Like CC's
cage/bird/rod/snake puzzle.)

Not that any of this recommended. I imagine such a thing could be done well,
though probably not by trying to force a "classic" into this no-object mold.
I'm just pointing out that traditional puzzles would not only be possible in
this situation, they'd =still= be easier than NPC puzzles.

I'd also like to point out that the line between NPC and object is pretty
gray.  Are the bird and the snake NPCs or are they objects?  They're
certainly no more complex than objects, but the player perceives them as
NPCs, as I believe was intended.

And, as one can see from "Curses", social puzzles can certainly involve
objects (like wheeling out the radio for your aunt or granny or whoever).

> And would it be possible to have absolutely no PC? This raises questions if
> its own.  What do you think?

Yes, it's possible.  This has been discussed in a number of ways.  First of
all, the PC could be a "thing".  In a suggestion made last year, the player
would be a dungeon, trying to stop adventurers from plundering.  (Similar in
theme to the game "Dungeon Keeper".)

This still, in my opinion, has a PC, just a PC who acts indirectly.  (Most RTS
games work that way.)

Another possibility would be to have the player direct the characters.  He
doesn't exist in the game, but he can determine the fates of the various
characters with his commands.  This certainly could be interesting.

> SNIDELY, TIE NELL TO RAILROAD TRACKS

Snidely takes the screaming Nell and throws her carelessly on the tracks,
cackling wildly the whole time.  As he lashes her down, a train can be heard
in the distance.

Or whatever.

   [ok]

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From erkyrath@netcom.com Fri Apr 16 12:52:23 CEST 1999
Article: 58489 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Glulx] Slight update
Message-ID: <erkyrathFA9CMx.GIL@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <erkyrathF9usq2.7Ao@netcom.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.990410181301.29507D-100000@adamant.res.wpi.net> <erkyrathFA0613.ME@netcom.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.990411040608.31172A-100000@adamant.res.wpi.net> <erkyrathFA3K6I.AtI@netcom.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.990413103329.20525A-100000@adamant.res.wpi.net> <erkyrathFA4xAF.AuF@netcom.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.990413191044.23202B-100000@adamant.res.wpi.net> <erkyrathFA5rHq.40L@netcom.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.990415194650.4305B-100000@adamant.res.wpi.net>
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George Caswell (tetsujin@adamant.res.wpi.net) wrote:
> > >    Runtime-compiled strings seems extremely useful.  Self-modifying code just
> > > seems like a bad idea to me, since it would be the largest obstacle to making
> > > an actual code translator from Glulx to another general-purpose machine with
> > > Glk interface and the same basic functionality.  Do you see a useful purpose
> > > for the feature?
> > 
> > No. Do you see a useful purpose to translating Glulx game files to another
> > VM format? :-)
> 
>    To another -VM- format?  Only if it's Java, and then, not really.  To
> a native -machine code- format?  Hell yes.  Pilot Frotz is pretty friggin'
> slow sometimes.  If the game installation conduit could support native code
> translation, games would probably run a lot faster. 

True.

But I don't expect that to occur. Really.

Anyway, self-modifying code is the least of the problems for a Glulx game
file translator. You can safely assume that code in ROM *isn't* modified,
and translate that -- thus covering 99% of the problem (and 100% of the
problem for Inform games, for the foreseeable future.)

The current scheme is that the bytes are everything. The VM state is
entirely determined by what's in memory and the stack. To forbid
self-modifying code (or strings, or whatever) is to drift away from that
scheme. That gets into a haze of complication very quickly.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Apr 20 11:25:14 CEST 1999
Article: 58644 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Glulx] Slight update
Message-ID: <erkyrathFAG8MK.2Ku@netcom.com>
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George Caswell (tetsujin@adamant.res.wpi.net) wrote:
> > [game file to native binary translation]
> > But I don't expect that to occur. Really.
> 
>    Truly a shame. 

So maybe someone will do it. I'm not going to argue *against* it. 

> > Anyway, self-modifying code is the least of the problems for a Glulx game
> > file translator. You can safely assume that code in ROM *isn't* modified,

>    What else would need to be considered?

The same things that have to be considered for Z-code disassembly --
figuring out the meanings of numeric constants compiled into the code.
Which comes down to VM states, for reason that probably aren't obvious
unless you've dug into the Inform runtime system. See below.

> > The current scheme is that the bytes are everything. The VM state is
> > entirely determined by what's in memory and the stack. To forbid
> > self-modifying code (or strings, or whatever) is to drift away from that
> > scheme. That gets into a haze of complication very quickly.
> > 
>    How so?  I think we have very different ideas of what is simple and what is
> not - I'm open to the possibility that perhaps you're right, and if you have 
> convincing arguments to that effect, I wouldn't mind hearing them - I might
> learn something.

I'm not sure I can state it more clearly than I have. See also my reply to
Roger Carbol in this thread.

>    The way I see it, disallowing self-modifying code complicates nothing and
> makes no useful functionality impossible or even substantially difficult.  On
> the other hand, disallowing self-modifying code makes it a lot easier for
> translation to be done.

No, it doesn't. 

If this was the only issue preventing translation from being practical, it
would be worth changing it. But it's only one aspect of a general issue:
my system assumes that there *is* a VM state (memory plus stack) and every
interpreter transforms the VM state in the same way as it runs. If the
program contains the assembly statement "@call 2e05 1 0" (call function at
address 2e05, one argument on the stack, discard return value) then by
damn there is a function at 2e05 which does what the program expects. The
interpreter can do any translation or JIT-compilation it wants, but the
effect on the VM state must be the same in the end.

In practice (and it always comes down to practice), this means that Glulx
disassembly or translation to C source is very difficult -- but
JIT-compilation, or translation and caching of the functions in ROM, is
fairly easy. The difference is more-or-less that the interpreter must be
able to fall back on "naive" Glulx execution if necessary. (And
self-modifying code certainly makes it necessary.)

>    Anyway, just a thought.

I hate that phrase. It's *not* just a thought, it's something you care
about. Or you wouldn't have posted it. 

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Apr 20 11:28:09 CEST 1999
Article: 58642 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Glulx] Slight update
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Roger Carbol (rcarbol@home.com) wrote:
> Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:

> >The current scheme is that the bytes are everything. The VM state
> >is entirely determined by what's in memory and the stack.

> What else could possibly define the state of the VM?

If the interpreter can cache code, or pre-compile it, or JIT-compile it,
then there's additional state, right there. The interpreter has to be
careful that that cache-state remains in sync with the "official" VM
state.

That's merely a technical problem, on the face of it. Such an interpreter
is more complicated, and has to be careful about itself. Big surprise.

But -- I want to be careful that it doesn't leak back, and make life more
complicated for the spec. Or a naive (non-caching) interpreter. Or for
game authors. Or for people designing a new language that compiles to
Glulx code.

Putting in restrictions that are only meaningful for clever
interpreters... is dangerous. It can lead to the kind of problem I want to
stay very far away from. If I say that the state of memory is the only
important state, and yet it's illegal to write new code into RAM and
execute it, isn't there an underlying contradiction? 

(Underlying contradictions are what lead to broken programs, even if
that's not the immediately recognizable cause.)

Yes, this is an argument based entirely on my feelings about what's a good
idea. Most of Glulx (and Glk) is like that.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Mon Apr 26 18:55:45 CEST 1999
Article: 58793 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Glulx] Design decisions
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brother_noro@iname.com (brother_noro@iname.com) wrote:
> In article <erkyrathFALzHo.Bx3@netcom.com> Andrew Plotkin wrote:

> : I've already said (and it seems uncontroversial) that the program should
> : be able to build new string objects in RAM, and print them just like
> : compiled-in string objects.

> Technically, one can already do this in the current incarnation just with
> normal arrays. 

Yes, but it's difficult, because the compression method is arcane. I don't
believe anyone does it. (Whereas people *do* manipulate character arrays,
for example with the contributed string library.)

> What bugged me a little about this last time I brought it up was
> that
> it seemed that adding a new uncompressed string object would seem to require
> additional inform syntax to designate that a quoted piece of text was to be
> stored in uncompressed form

I'm not planning to add such syntax. A quoted string literal will always
wind up compressed. 

You could easily write a library function to turn a compressed string into
an uncompressed one. I figure this will be sufficient, since you'd already
want some library functions to concatenate strings, measure the length of
strings, chop pieces out of strings, etc, etc.

> : However, compressed strings will probably require a decompression table of
> : some sort. (This is true both for Huffman algorithms and LZW-like
> : algorithms.) I decided early on to put a "decompression table" field in
> : the header. (It'll be in the next version of the spec.) Normally, of
> : course, the decompression table will be in ROM along with the strings
> : themselves.

> I finally resolved to read your spec, but unfortunately www.eblong.com
> isn't responding at the moment. 

Yeah, sorry about that. I have to bug the machine's owner.

> Why should the decompression table be read-only? 

I don't say it *should*. I say it will normally be, because the normal
model of Inform game is consistent with having all string data in ROM, and
so that's how I'll implement Glulx Inform.

> And how can one dynamically change any string he wants if
> they are all in read-only memory? 

You can't change string objects generated by Glulx Inform. You can create
new ones, however.

> Why do we need read-only memory at all?

It makes it easier to catch certain errors; it also makes certain
optimizations much easier (like pre-reading tables or JIT-compiling code). 

> : Now the problem: it may be that the decompression table is in RAM. This
> : could be because the compiler put it there (Inform won't, but again, who
> : knows.) It could also be because a game called the select_new_table opcode
> : and passed in a RAM address.
> :
> : What's poor interpreter to do? It would really like to read in the
> : decompression table, storing it in some data structure of its own, instead
> : of parsing through VM memory all the time. On the other hand, the program
> : might do something crazy like alter that table on the fly.

> I can actually see reasons to do this.  There are times when you want to
> replace EVERY occurrance of string A with string B.  Depending on the
> compression scheme and how many times the string appears in your code, it
> might just be easier to write the decompression table directly rather than
> trying to remember low_string constants

That's a good point, although I'm not sure the compression method will
support it.

I'm not sure *how* I'm going to handle the functionality that Low_string
and @## currently provide. It's not going to be available in the first
draft of the compiler/interpreter system. (How much do people use it?)

> Suffice it to say that, in my opinion, it
> would be a great boon if it were possible to implement variable strings
> in a way that made it easier on the programmer who had to use them within
> virtually every chunk of text in his code.  I could see variable strings
> becoming very commonplace in future generations of text adventures.

Mmm, yeah. I think a cleaner approach is to have the compiler compile such
strings into *functions*, rather than complicating the string-printing
primitives. But I haven't started working on this problem yet.

> : So an interpreter can safely pre-load a decompression table from ROM. But
> : if the table is in RAM, it must either (1) watch for memory writes to that
> : space and re-load the data, or (2) refuse to pre-load the table at all,
> : and just read the data out of VM memory every time a string is printed.

> Is (1) really all that inefficient?  Are stores really that frequent,
> when you look at the overall time spent executing a text adventure?
> (I have no idea; I'm asking.)

I have no idea. I think they probably are. (Remember that more time is
spent in the parser than in user code.) It will bear some testing.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Mon Apr 26 23:35:43 CEST 1999
Article: 58872 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!ix.netcom.com!erkyrath
From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Glulx] Design decisions
Message-ID: <erkyrathFAsz5E.KxL@netcom.com>
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George Caswell (tetsujin@adamant.res.wpi.net) wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Andrew Plotkin wrote:

> > Since the low-level representation of everything else, including
> > VM-defined objects such as strings, is accessible, I contrariwise believe
> > that my approach is simpler and more stable. 
> 
>    Except that code written for the system may then assume that it can alter
> low-level representations.  Such code would be written specifically for one
> version of the VM - when bugs are found in the VM, and fixed, that
> representation will change and code will break.

Certainly the code will be generated for a particular version of the VM.
I'm trying hard to make sure that there *is* only one version of the VM.
A large part of this is moving the I/O outside (95% of the changes people
might want are I/O.) The rest is making everything stupid enough that
there's nothing to change. 

(Of course, I'm allowing for extensions -- new opcodes. That doesn't
break backward compatibility.)

Since we're talking about bugs in the VM *specification*, not in code, I'm
trying to avoid them by making them spec as simple and clear as possible.
That's what led to this position in the first place. 

Yes, I'm nailing down the format of strings and executable code, and that
puts certain requirements on an interpreter. I think those requirements
are no worse than for the Z-machine, in every respect except total game
file size. (And if game file size is the only problem, make a .z8 file.)
There is, roughly, a minimum machine oomph requirement, and you can't use
game-file transforms to sneak under them. But if it'll work okay on a
Palm3, I'm not too worried (and I think it will.)

>    I'm not real keen on the system at this point, apart from the fact that it
> eliminates much of the complexity of the Z-machine I don't see it as much of
> an improvement. 

It's definitely an improvement in the area it addresses: removing all the
hard limits of Inform, or at least kicking them up several orders of
magnitude.

I'm trying to make it general enough that it's not limited to the Inform
language. I hope other IF systems will choose to target Glulx as a runtime
system. 

But if not, you know, it's not a big deal. I'm not wasting very much
effort. The *hard* part has been changing the *compiler*. As I keep
saying, Glulx is a very minor part of that task.

> I suppose among other things my being a Schemer at heart
> makes me hope for a runtime system that will support some abstractions and
> allow the interpreters some freedom in how the details are implemented.

[and from next post:]

>  My design would work as follows -
>
> Any strings defined as part of the program would be stored as resources
> in compressed form in the game file.  The compression scheme would be a
> part of the game file format.  Any strings defined by code would be
> managed -by the interpreter-, outside of VM memory.  The interpreter
> would be able to decide, at runtime, what storage and compression
> schemes are most viable for all these objects, as long as the services
> and abstract interface for the strings are available to the code.

Then, as I also keep saying, you may want to look at TADS. It's completely
resource-based and abstract. It's designed for a language which has
practically the opposite approach to Inform's (and that's because
Inform's approach derives from the original Z-machine.) 

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From knight37@flash.NOSPAM.net Wed Apr 28 21:24:12 CEST 1999
Article: 58944 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "White Knight" <knight37@flash.NOSPAM.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
References: <7g4qjf$oou$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <7g79bt$nlb$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Subject: Re: [INFORM] "Dude" language
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Michael Vokits <vokitsmi@pilot.msu.edu> wrote

>    Like, thanks, dudes and dudettes.
>
>    I have a slightly updated version of "dude.h" and a much better
> version of "dudeverb.h" up now. I'm still working out how to implement
> purely emotional utterances, ya know?
>

DUDE! - anger!
Dude? - are you ok, dude?
Dude! - excited agreement.
dude. - dissapointment.
dUdE% - pass the controlled substance this way.

Well, that's all for now, I'm sure you can come up with more. Ya know?

knight37





From shanos@es.co.nz Thu Apr 29 13:01:00 CEST 1999
Article: 58950 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: shanos@es.co.nz (Gevan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [announce] Alpha test assembler for glulx
Date: 28 Apr 1999 21:51:06 GMT
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On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:23:26 GMT, Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:
> Gevan (shanos@es.co.nz) wrote:
>> [glulx assembler: glax]
>
> Heh.
>
> I'd better post some early notes, before anything goes blooey:
>
> The official file suffix for Glulx game files (compiled) is ".ulx". (Don't
> have a Mac file type yet, sorry.)

Noted that earlier...

> I'm going to suggest that Glulx assembly source files have the
> suffix ".ula". 

...and guessed this one.  If arrived at independently, it must be right.

> I don't have a good set of samples for the *syntax* of assembly. Inform,
> of course, lets you put in assembly code in your Inform source, and Glulx
> Inform will do that about the same way Z-code Inform:
> [...]
> It would be good if all the assemblers used the same syntax as much as 
> possible, but for the moment everyone's going to be rolling their own.

Heh.  Now, how interesting would the world be if syntax was standard?
Currently I've got something quite impurely AT&T, and I'll be sticking 
with that as much as possible.  I imagine the canonical assembler will
be Glulx Inform; I'm just providing an alternative syntax for myself.


From conrad@copland.udel.edu Mon May  3 13:38:57 CEST 1999
Article: 59031 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: conrad@copland.udel.edu (Jon A Conrad)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: The Princess Bride
Date: 1 May 1999 11:04:51 -0400
Organization: University of Delaware
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References: <7gcnqn$i75$1@love.loyola.edu> <19990430190524.22975.00000636@ng139.aol.com> <vuoogk5n1of.fsf@csa.bu.edu> <372a7494.183001449@news.gte.net>
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Roger J. Long <longrj2@gte.net> wrote:

>Have the bookstore do a search on the title.  There's two books by
>that same title, and the second one is a "corrected" version of the
>first by a different author.  

The difference between the two books being that the "first" one never
existed.  William Goldman wrote a story called THE PRINCESS BRIDE
(originally to please his daughters), and in order to jump directly from
one "good part" to the next without needing to bother with transitional
chapters, published the book as "The Good Parts version of S.
Morgenstern's Immortal Tale of Love and Adventure."  He frames it with a
fictitious family history in which he invents a psychiatrist wife and a
son, and de-invents the daughters.

It's intended to be a fairly obvious put-on, what with the wacky character
names, references to Florinese literature (hint: ever hear of the
countries Guilder or Florin?), and the nonexistent Mr. Morgenstern
himself.  Not to mention the copyright notice for Goldman alone.

The newest editions have some appendix material, including the latest
version of the letter the publisher would send if you followed the advice
at one point in the story, and the first chapter of "Morgenstern's
sequel."

Jon


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Tue May  4 12:58:35 CEST 1999
Article: 59127 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: TADS: How to square and square root numbers.
Date: 4 May 1999 12:55:56 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology
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In article <QMxX2.24698$MB3.35076@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,
jd_auberon  <@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>Is it possible to square and square root numerals in TADS? 
>If so, how?

Squaring is trivial. Just multiply the number with itself -
taht's the definition of square: x^2 = x * x.

As for square roots, it's a little bit more difficult since
TADS only has integer arithmetic, not floating point. So unless
you implement floating-point numbers yourself, you'll have
to be satisfied with computing the integer square root (i.e. the
integer part of the square root).

One simple algorithm you could use builds on the fact that 
n^2 = (n-1)^2 + 2*n - 1. In C, it looks like this (the TADS
code is quite similar):

int integer_sqrt(int i)
{
  int n = 0; /* Possible square root */
  int n2 = 0; /* The square of n */
  
  /* Find smallest n such that n^2 > i. Then the integer square root
     of i is n-1 */
  while (n2 <= i) {
    n = n + 1;
    n2 = n2 + 2 * n - 1;
  }
  return n - 1;
}

Of course, this routine returns the wrong result (0) for negative
inputs.

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From dbs@cs.wisc.edu Thu May  6 18:57:11 CEST 1999
Article: 59133 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: dbs@cs.wisc.edu (Dan Shiovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [TADS] I don't see any [object] here.
Date: 4 May 1999 15:27:13 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin CS Dept
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In article <_JwX2.127$O3.9090@news12.ispnews.com>,
Stephen Kodat <skodat@blazenet.net> wrote:
[..]
>    I dont' see any bongo here.
>
>The problem is that I've searched for the phrase in adv.t, including each
>single word (not bongo, of course), and I can't find where the sentence is
>generated. I did find
>
>    I don't see that here.
>
>which obviously is different. Does this mean that the phrasing is built into
>the parser? If so, where's the best place to trap the message, so that I can
>provide my own alternative? Curiously, when I try to collect the call traces

Yes, it's built into the parser. Check out the parseError (or, if
you're using an up-to-date version of TADS, the superior
parseErrorParam command) function for altering it.

>with the HTML debugger, it crashes.
>
>Along these lines, more generally speaking, I was toying with the idea of
>going through adv.t and replacing all the various stock messages with calls
>to a function that will neatly have all output phrasings in one place. I
>realize that this means more work than I dare imagine, but I'm wondering:
>would anyone else appreciate the effort? More importantly, will it quickly

Inform has this, the result of which is I have to do twice as many
searches whenever I want to find out where a message is called
from. On the other hand, I ended up having to do something like this
anyway when I wrote _Bad Machine_. On the third hand, I think the
former case is more common than the latter. So, I guess, unless you're
planning on customizing most of the messages, it's not really worth doing.
I think the library is likely to change in each version of TADS, but
not by much. Obsolescence is not a reason to not do it, I think.

[..]
>Steve K
-- 
Dan Shiovitz || dbs@cs.wisc.edu || http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~dbs 
"...Incensed by some crack he had made about modern enlightened
thought, modern enlightened thought being practically a personal buddy
of hers, Florence gave him the swift heave-ho and--much against my
will, but she seemed to wish it--became betrothed to me." - PGW, J.a.t.F.S. 


From mjr-SEENOTE@hotmail.com Thu May  6 18:58:07 CEST 1999
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From: "Mike Roberts" <mjr-SEENOTE@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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Jacob Munkhammar wrote in message ...
>In article <372A1C54.FD2DD309@alcyone.com>, Erik Max Francis
><max@alcyone.com> wrote:
>> What is the goal of giving relative directions in the first place?
>Firstly, because of the (in this group sometimes impopular) notion of
>"realism".

I wouldn't dream of speaking for the group at large, but I think it is a
slight misconception that realism is in and of itself unpopular.  For my own
part, I've nothing against realism, but I place a higher value on other,
sometimes conflicting, elements of game design.  Making the basic mechanics
of the game easy and transparent for the player is much more important to me
than realism, and I have no qualms about sacrificing realism when it would
be at the expense of transparency.

>Secondly, I prefer to test games and i-f that I make on inexperienced
>players - that is, players without preconceptions about how i-f "should"
>be controlled.

That's worthwhile, but ultimately any game will have a set of conventions
that players must learn.  It's straightforward to explain to a new player
the typical convention (compass directions), and I don't doubt it would be
straightforward to explain a relative system.  But you will have to explain
it; no one's real-world intuition is going to apply perfectly  to any
computer simulation short of fully-immersive VR.

--Mike





From wild_dj@mit.edu Thu May  6 19:42:20 CEST 1999
Article: 59211 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: wild_dj@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: MIT Bimonthly magazine celebrates Infocom & Z-Machine
Date: 6 May 1999 00:23:26 GMT
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The May/June issue of MIT's bimonthly _Technology Review_ featured an article
on the 35th anniversary of the Laboratory for Computer Science. The first
example given of LCS innovation was:


Infocom: The Legacy of Zork

  Many new businesses fail, and those from LCS are no exception. But while one
measure of success is financial, another is the intellectual legacy that a
company leaves behind. And along this dimension, LCS spinoffs have few equals.

  Consider Infocom, the company created in 1979 by Project MAC founder Joseph
C.R. Licklider and nearly a dozen other LCS researchers. Infocom sold a
peculiar kind of computer game known as "interactive fiction." Best exemplified
by Zork, the games were puzzles: The computer would print a description of the
"room" that you were in, and sitting at the computer you would type back
instructions on where to move and what actions to take.

  Though its product may have seemed frivolous, Infocom was a technological
pioneer. To accomodate the many different kinds of computer systems in use at
the time, Infocom created a virtual computer called the Z Machine. The Z
Machine served as a kind of buffer between the programmers and the outside
world of multiple, incompatible computer formats. The first copy of Zork sold
in November 1980 and ran on Digital's PDP-11 minicomputer. A month later, the
company was selling Zork for Radio Shack's new TRS-80 microcomputer. In
February 1981, Infocom made a version that ran on the popular Apple II --- and
proceeded to sell 6,000 copies of the game over the next eight months. Infocom
ultimately created 35 different games, and in 1984 had sales of $10 million.

  Infocom couldn't sustain its growth, though, largely because the company was
divided against itself. Although games supplied the revenu, Infocom's
management was determined to develop a corporate database tool called
Cornerstone. By June of 1985 more than half of the company's 110 employees were
working on Cornerstone. The project became a black hole, sucking up development
dollars but never yielding a finished product. In December, Infocom finally
shut down its business product division and laid off its staff, but it was too
late. In June 1986, with just 40 employees left, the company was sold to
California-based video-game make Activision for $9 million. Three years later,
all but five of Infocom's 26 employees quit or were laid off, and the tattered
remnants of the company were absorbed into Activision's operations. Licklider
stayed at LCS, becoming its director. He retired from MIT in 1985 and died in
1990.

  While Infocom failed as a business, the company broke important new ground
that is still being explored today. Infocom enthusiasts have created Z Machine
interpreters for more than 25 different systems --- systems as diverse as
Windows 95 and the 3Com Palm Pilot. Infocom's philosophy of making programs
that run on any type of computer system stood in dramatic contrast to the
prevailing way of doing business at the time. But, this idea of a "portable
environment" has, in the era of the Internet, taken hold in the form of the
Perl and Java programming languages.



+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into         |
| theorems.              -Paul Erdos                          |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|                       Jake Wildstrom                        |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+



From adam@princeton.edu Thu May  6 19:43:54 CEST 1999
Article: 59244 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: adam@princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: MIT Bimonthly magazine celebrates Infocom & Z-Machine
Date: 6 May 1999 14:42:28 GMT
Organization: We don't need no steenking organization!
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In article <ant0607411cbM+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>,
Graham Nelson  <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <7gqndu$brj@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, Jake Wildstrom
><URL:mailto:wild_dj@mit.edu> wrote:
>>   Consider Infocom, the company created in 1979 by Project MAC founder Joseph
>> C.R. Licklider and nearly a dozen other LCS researchers.
>
>I wonder why they name Licklider, particularly?  He was one of
>the ten founders, but didn't serve on the board of directors,
>and I'm not aware that he did anything at or for Infocom in the
>1980s -- at any rate, his name appears only once in Paul David
>Doherty's chronology.

Presumably because he's the one with the really impressive academic
credentials?  I don't know who the other nine were, but Licklider is one of
the absolutely central figures in the early history of computing.  I
suppose he is the _eminence grise_ of the affair.  Though, as usual, I'm
just spouting off and may be utterly wrong.

Adam
-- 
adam@princeton.edu 
"There's a border to somewhere waiting, and a tank full of time." - J. Steinman


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue May 11 13:34:41 CEST 1999
Article: 59423 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Inform] 8 character library
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David Glasser (glasser@iname.com) wrote:
> Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:

> > Max Kalus (max.kalus@student.uni-augsburg.de) wrote:
> > > Is there any way to lift the 8 character restiction of library words.
> > 
> > Nine characters, actually (for v5/8). But punctuation and accented
> > characters take up more than one slot. (That's a bit of a simplification,
> > but it's definitely no more than nine.)
> > 
> > There's no way to change it. The length is hardwired into the Z-machine.
> > Sorry. 

> What does Glulx offer in this way?

The Glulx VM doesn't know what a dictionary word is. 

The Glulx Inform compiler does. In my current working code, I've got a
"#define DICT_WORD_SIZE 9" in the header.h file, and I think I can just
change that and recompile. (But I haven't tested that carefully.) 

Ultimately, of course, this should be a command-line switch rather than a
hardwired #define.

The library has to know how big a word is. In my current working code, it
always uses the system constants #dict_par1, #dict_par2, #dict_par3, and
DICT_WORD_SIZE. (The latter, of course, is always generated equal to the
value that the compiler is using.) So the library should adapt to whatever
the compiler is generating, no problem.

The Infix debugging system is part of the library, at least for these
purposes. See above. (But I haven't even started to port Infix to the
Glulx Inform system yet.)

--Z


-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue May 11 22:09:05 CEST 1999
Article: 59426 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Just occurred to me...
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Jonadab the Unsightly One (badanoj@bright.net) wrote:
> 	
> I just realised that there're going to eventually be a couple more
> really fun word to say.

> zarf + Zip   + Mac        --> MaxZip
> zarf + Zip   + x-windows  --> XZip

> zarf + TADS  + Mac        --> MaxTADS

This isn't quite correct. "Zip + Mac" would have been MacZip, and my name 
isn't involved. The actual progression was:

Zip   + X Windows   --> XZip
XZip  + Mac         --> MaxZip
MaxZip - Zip + TADS --> MaxTADS

> Is there an XTADS?

No, but there's a GlkTADS and an XGlk.

> Anyhow, with glulx, we're almost destined to have MaxGlulx and
> possibly XGlulx.  THOSE will be fun to pronounce.  Particularly if
> the latter is pronounced as one syllable.

One could be precise and say XGlkGlulxe. (X Glk library + glulxe
interpreter. "Glulx" is the VM itself.)

However, I'm not actually going to go that far (though none of you may
believe that.) I'll just call the program "glulxe", and the Mac binary
"MacGlulxe". If someone invents a second Mac Glk library, they'll have to
invent a distinctive name for it. 

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed May 19 15:06:02 CEST 1999
Article: 59708 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Glulx] Slight update
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Paul E. Bell (wd0gcp@millcomm.com) wrote:
> Well, I suspect that, in either case, one cannot export actual objects,
> only data pertaining to which objects the player has. 

This is true, unless you get into very deep changes in Inform. (Much
deeper than the changes I'm implementing.) 

> The fourth option would be to allow the game file to grow or change
> itself to accomodate new items.  In order to do this, Glulx would have
> to allow a game file to add/modify it's own code (dynamically
> inserting/deleting objects on the fly (would this be a form of OLE)).

Heh. See earlier argument. It *is* legal to insert objects, functions, and
strings in the fly; but this is the easy part. Making them work in a new
game is hard. (Compiled Inform code uses constants for property ids,
object ids, function ids, etc. This constants vary from game to game
and even from compile to compile. You'd have to bring along a symbol
table. Ouch.)

Making it work *interestingly* is the *really* hard part. Code for
interaction between objects is usually split between the two objects (if
not also the player and the room the action takes place in.) Bringing a
wand of shrinking into a new game means implementing all the "shrinking"
gameplay. If you do that you might as well implement the wand too, and
transfer over a single byte saying "yeah, I've got the wand". As in your
option whatever-number-it-was, snipped above.

(The alternative is a more homogenous, simulation-oriented system. But if
you implement one of those, you've probably solved the majority of the
problem already.)

> Oh well, we can't have everything, but I suspect that we can include
> more information in the Glulx version of this than we could in the
> Z-machine version.

Not easily -- not at the VM level, anyway. Remember that the VM doesn't
know *anything* about the formats of objects. 

I'm providing (in the VM) a way to write arbitrary data to files, and also
the old-style "write all of memory to a file". Anything beyond that
requires serious work, but it *doesn't* have to be work in the VM design,
so I'm leaving it for later. Other people can take it up. 

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From garethr@cre.canon.co.uk Tue May 25 14:23:07 CEST 1999
Article: 59984 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Gareth Rees <garethr@cre.canon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Inform] Chess Game
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Jacob Munkhammar <jacob@stud.ntnu.no> wrote:
> There was a chess program for the ZX80 and/or ZX81. It needed only 1K of
> RAM, of which about half was used for the graphics.

I believe the level of play was described as "not technically illegal".
It didn't check the player's moves but trusted the player to be honest!

-- 
Gareth Rees


From wd0gcp@millcomm.com Wed May 26 10:20:33 CEST 1999
Article: 59856 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "Paul E. Bell" <wd0gcp@millcomm.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Theory] When is a puzzle a puzzle?
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:30:46 -0500
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This whole argument/discussion/whatever about puzzles has become so
confusing that I think I will not even attempt to present what I was
going to.

You see, I have a door, a very complex, mystical door.  It has a key,
which is not immediatly obvious; at least not at least not without
examining the door in some detail.  What made this door art, to my
thinking, was the detail that went into not only the look and feel of
the door, but the inference the door presents, the magic of discovering
that the "key" and the door have something in common, the hallway
leading to the door, and the magic of the room beyond, what happens to
the surroundings when you open the door, when you enter, and close the
door, the ways in which the door moves, how it changes as you discover
the "keyhole", the "handle", and it's unique properties as you discover
other items in it's small world.

I created this door for my version of "Ruins.inf", and now everyone will
have to wait untill I finish reading the DM and building "Ruins.inf" to
see it.  I thought it worthy of a place in a museum, perhaps it can be
added to a new version of "Museum.inf" sometime in the future.

Can not machines of intricate and wonderful design be both beautiful
works of art (to those who can appreciate them) and quite puzzling (to
those who can't)?  I know some people who can take a car apart and put
it back together,  paint and polish it, race it, draw it, and make it
purr like a kitten; but to them, the most beautiful Arabian horse would
be the worst puzzle they could immagine, were they presented with the
task of saddling, bridling, mounting, and riding one, let alone drawing
one.  I have customers that can't figgure out how to use anything with
more than two buttons (how they use the telephone is beyond me).  So,
you see, a puzzle is only a puzzle to a person who is unfamiliar with
the medium, or it's form.

As for whether IF (art) can be defined as IF (art) without puzzles,
that's debatable.  If you are saying that, whenever there is a choice to
be made, the outcome should be the same, and the player/reader should
not have to consider his choices, then I see no point to the
interactivity.  To me, at least, creative consequences are as much a
part of the "art" of IF as the descriptions of the rooms and objects
contained therein.  A Chinese puzzle box is as much a work of art as it
is a frustrating mechanical marvel, and part of the art is how the
mechanism is worked into the design.  The better artisan will have a
more devious mechanism, which will be better disguised by the artwork
thereon.

Anyone can describe a painting or a still life.  IF artwork should be
dynamic, a combination of form and function, texture and response. 
Witness the "Here Now" living sculptures in the graphic adventure "The
Journeyman Project 2: Buried in Time."  Part of what makes them art is
discovering what forms they take on when exposed to different
frequencies.

Anyway, enough ranting, I'm off to muck around in the art of designing a
watch in Inform...

Paul E. Bell
-- 
_____
 | |  _      \   _   _    |/ _   _(
 | | (_X (_/`/\ (_) (_`   |\(_) (_) (_|_) (/`
                      )


From erkyrath@netcom.com Fri May 28 15:16:37 CEST 1999
Article: 60079 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: "Interactive Fiction"?
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chadschultz@my-deja.com wrote:
> You know, I think that the term "interactive
> fiction" is misleading. Why don't we just call
> then "text adventures"?

> 1. They aren't all just text.
> 2. They aren't all just adventures.
> 3. Interactive Fiction sounds so much more
> sophisticated.

Agreed. (Well, most of them *are* just text, but we've always been able to
keep track of the difference.)

> But the problems with interactive fiction:

> 1. "interactive". This is a degree, not a boolean
> value. With TV, you keep your eyes open and
> pointing at the screen. A book, you turn pages
> and use your imagination. IF, you may actually
> change the story through your decisions.

You use your imagination in any form of art. There's plenty of gradation
of interactivity between different IF works -- but the entire subject
doesn't arise at *all* for books or TV.

(You might say that books are interactive to the extent that you can
decide whether to stop reading, or how fast to read. I might then say that
you're being silly.)

> 2. "fiction". What if it is educational? Or take,
> for instance, my "pillow" "game" that was entered
> in the 99 art show. What is the fiction? Is there
> actually interactive *non-fiction*?

Sure. I've seen simulation and computation programs written in Inform.
However, they're generally not called IF. We lump them into this newsgroup
if they use IF technologies, but as curiosities or "abuses", not
"interactive fiction".

The phrase "interactive fiction" includes everything I mean by "adventure"
anyway. Are you thinking of particular works that are included as "text
adventures" but *excluded* as "interactive fiction"? I can't think of any.
If there aren't any, the current labelling must be working okay.

(And I do find it useful to be able to discuss text games and graphical
games as two kinds of IF.)

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 15:17:55 CEST 1999
Article: 60110 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: z-machine, for "other" uses?
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:41:38 +0100
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In article <jacob-2805990858020001@ti29a96-0106.dialup.online.no>,
Jacob Munkhammar <URL:mailto:jacob@stud.ntnu.no> wrote:
> Has anyone any experience with using the z-machine for anything but
> compiling Inform to it?

I believe some people called Infocom used to... but that's
another story.

> Or has anyone tried to pre-process code or definitions of any kind to Inform?

Yes.  A translator has been written from Scott Adams object code
format into Inform source, enabling all of Adams's and Howarth's
games to be played on the Z-machine.

This is not a bad idea, because Inform contains heaps of boring
but worthy code to glue all the pieces of a Z-machine together,
so you may as well make use of it rather than have to write it
all over again.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From jacob@stud.ntnu.no Fri May 28 15:18:51 CEST 1999
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From: jacob@stud.ntnu.no (Jacob Munkhammar)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] Chess Game
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In article <sik8txcv3z.fsf@cre.canon.co.uk>, Gareth Rees
<garethr@cre.canon.co.uk> wrote:

> Jacob Munkhammar <jacob@stud.ntnu.no> wrote:
> > There was a chess program for the ZX80 and/or ZX81. It needed only 1K of
> > RAM, of which about half was used for the graphics.
> 
> I believe the level of play was described as "not technically illegal".
> It didn't check the player's moves but trusted the player to be honest!


The program is explained in full here:

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~uzdm0006/scans/1kchess/

(Thanks to comp.sys.sinclair, and the owner of that site!)

The program is an amazing piece of engineering. It actually scans the
screen to see where the pieces are!!! That's memory saving!

If its "strategy" of chess play is transferable to IF is something I'm not
completely sure of, though...

/Jacob

-- 
Jacob Munkhammar     --     http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~jacob/
C.A.V.E. --  http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~jacob/JMUNK/eng/CAVE/
<no.it.os.mac.diverse> <no.it.nostalgi> <comp.sys.sinclair>
<se.humaniora.svenska>               <rec.arts.int-fiction>


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Jun  1 17:58:21 CEST 1999
Article: 60212 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: modern art (was puzzle theory)
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Adam Cadre (adamc@duke.edu) wrote:
> Eric Mitchell wrote:
> > So I'm walking through the Hirschhorn (Modern Art museum in
> > Washington, D.C.), and I come across a lovely piece, entitled
> > "White Curve".  I forget the artist, but it's basically an 
> > unframed canvas, about 6 feet tall by 4 feet wide, white on 
> > the top half, and black on the bottom half.  The boundary 
> > between the white and black sections is a curved line,  I spent
> > about three minutes listening to one lady explain to her friend 
> > the significance of the painting, why white was on top, why the
> > boundary was a curve, and not a straight line, and so on, before
> > I had to walk into the next room to avoid rolling on the floor
> > in laughter at the whole thing.

> Tell me about it.  One time *I* was at a museum and I saw this one 
> painting that was supposed to be of a starry night, but the stars were 
> all big and the sky had swirls and shit in it and so if the painter guy 
> was trying to draw a starry night, all I can say is, he shoulda gone back 
> to painting school! 

Heh.

Here's the thought about art which has been floating around in my head for
the past couple of weeks. This was *also* triggered by the Hirshhorn,
which is where I met up with David Dyte and Adam Cadre and Kiz on David's
"IF Across North America" tour.

I like going into the Hirshhorn (although on that day we only walked
around it) because modern art very often strikes me as *funny*. Sometimes
attractive, sometimes not. When it is, it's sort of a side effect. Modern
artists (I generalize) are clowns; they pull out the stops on absurdity
and exaggeration in order to be memorable. 

That's not a disparagement. The point of art is to communicate memorably.
And, while the *idea* of building an entire room and covering it with
Cheezy Poofs (furniture and all) is good for a chuckle -- actually *doing*
it (with care and skill and dedication) is worth a solid belly-laugh. I
respect someone who does that, and I'll go to see more of her work.[1]

(Note that this is not what Eric mentioned above, which is laughing at
silly people who try to interpret modern art. Although I'll do that too,
if they go too far.)

On the second hand, there's whaddayacall "classic art". This is sometimes
attractive, but rarely interesting to me. The West Wing of the National
Gallery has endless ranks of paintings by French people, and I never go
look at them. When the IF group was wandering around the Smithsonian, we
didn't go in there. 

Where we did go in, where I dragged the group after walking around the
White House and making ObIntern jokes, was the Renwick Gallery. It's... I
don't think it has a formal subtitle, but the description here says
"decorative arts and crafts from early America to the present". And this
stuff (again, I generalize) is by people who are working with *stuff*.
"Craft", not "art". Glass (I love studio glass); carved wood; jewellery;
clothing. All sorts of stuff. There was a bell which was a curved bar
balanced on a stand, so that if you hit it it would spin around ringing.
(All sealed under glass, dammit.) There was my favorite Renwick exhibit of
all time, the Ghost Clock, which I can't explain without spoilers. There
was a swordfish made entirely of discarded toys.

I think what I like is the challenge of working in a medium. Well, oil
paint is a medium too, and I don't really care that Vermeer made it look
like light. I don't know exactly what I mean. But someone who take wood or
glass or clay and just pushes the hell out of what she can *do* with it;
these things I find beautiful. (Or iron, Rubik's Cubes, or telephone wire,
or one's living space.) The more ornery the material, the more I like the
result.

(Utility is in there somewhere, too. But not necessary. Most studio glass
is entirely useless, and I wouldn't dare eat off even the pieces that I
*could* eat off of. Maybe I mean toy-facility, like the bell.)

I started this with the intention of getting back to IF, and I've
forgotten how. Well, IF -- an IF program, I mean -- is a hell of an ornery
material. A game is an *awful* medium for telling stories; we have to
strain and strain and implement pages of code to make a single effective
moment in an entire game. And we're all horribly ignorant amateurs who
haven't figured out the fiftieth part of the techniques that must be
available.

This is obviously why I like it so much.

I started this with the intention of going from IF to to Doe's IF art
show, and I still don't know what I'm going to do when I get there. I
haven't even had time to look at the entries (and that after a week-long
vacation, I apologize to say.) It's perfectly obvious we need more
exercises like that; never mind my quibbling over how to define the rules
most effectively.

It would be easy to say the moral is: "Don't get caught up in modern art,
lest ye be silly, nor yet in classic art, lest ye be boring; dig your
fingers in and make *craft*." That's not what I want to say. (Because this
is a prose form, not visual, and different things interest me in prose.)
(Also because I like silly IF too -- "Lists and Lists" was nothing if not
a room covered in Cheezy Poofs -- and some of you folk certainly enjoy
Impressionism a lot more than I do.)

I have no moral. I have a desire to see what people can do with IF.
This is why I keep trying to improve the raw materials, in between playing
with them myself.

--Z

[1: Sandy Skoglund. I've never been to an installation of hers, but see
http://www.artsednet.getty.edu/ArtsEdNet/Images/Skoglund/gallery1.html for
some pictures, including the Cheezy Poof one.]

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Jun  3 14:24:08 CEST 1999
Article: 60247 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: "Interactive Fiction"?
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Daniel Barkalow (iabervon@iabervon.mit.edu) wrote:
> On Fri, 28 May 1999, Paul E. Bell wrote:

> > Now, if the museum were a museum of interesting _objects_,as used in IF,
> > then different constraints would govern.

> And in this room we have the box of tools from Spider and Web, the chest 
> of dirt from Photopia, the axe from Adventure, and the anemometer from 
> Jigsaw...

> Of course, having read _Travels in Hyperreality_, by Umberto Eco, 
> recently, I have to wonder, would such things be the actual objects, 
> copies, or fakes?

The tools in _Spider and Web_ are copies, I'm afraid.

The originals were stolen off my hard drive in October of 1997, and
replaced with exact clones with identical memories. 

Six of one from my point of view, of course, but the poor dears were quite
paralyzed with the existential collywobbles for weeks.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Thu Jun  3 14:24:20 CEST 1999
Article: 60264 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: "Interactive Fiction"?
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:17:08 +0100
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In article <Pine.LNX.3.91.990601185614.4402A-100000@iabervon.mit.edu>,
Daniel Barkalow <URL:mailto:iabervon@iabervon.mit.edu> wrote:
> And in this room we have the box of tools from Spider and Web, the chest 
> of dirt from Photopia, the axe from Adventure, and the anemometer from 
> Jigsaw...

The anemometer was stolen from the flagpole at the top of the
Oxford nuclear physics building (possibly the ugliest building
in the world, ladies and gentlemen, and I've been to Berlin and
Washington DC).

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From erkyrath@netcom.com Fri Jun  4 10:09:42 CEST 1999
Article: 60305 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Glulx question
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David Given (dg@tao.co.uk) wrote:
> If this is a constant:

> 	42.l

> And this is the contents of a memory cell specified by a constant:

> 	(42).l

> How do I get the contents of a memory cell specified by another memory
> cell?

The aload opcode is good for this.

     aload (42).l 0 (sp)

Or perhaps

     aload (sp) 0 (sp)

(Which is one reason that zero operands can be encoded very compactly.)

An indirect-stack operand mode would obviously make this easier, but I
don't want to add that unless there are clear benefits. Do you expect to
use this construct frequently?

> And in a related question, if I use (sp) more than once in an
> instruction, is the order in which numbers are popped on or off the stack
> guaranteed? 

It's guaranteed from left to right. The spec says:

>> Operands are evaluated from left to right. (This is important if there
>> are several push/pop operands.)

Wherever an opcode actually affects the stack itself, I've tried to
specify exactly when it occurs. (Usually it's after all loads and before
any store.)

> 	copy 2, (sp)
> 	copy 1, (sp)
> 	sub (sp) (sp) (sp)
>
> Will this (a) get the same result on different terps, and (b) leave 1 or
> -1 on the stack?

Always -1.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From dg@tao.co.uk Tue Jun  8 23:14:55 CEST 1999
Article: 60496 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: dg@tao.co.uk (David Given)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Glulx C (danger: ramble)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:16:45 +0100
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I'm about 30% through a port of lcc to Glulx. (lcc's a retargetable C
compiler, for those who are interested.) I thought that at this point I'd
make a few comments on my experiences so far.

The Glulx architecture is... peculiar. The stack-based structure is both
nice and nasty at the same time; it's nice, in that I don't have to worry
about register allocation, and the lcc internal algorithm representation
maps nicely onto it ---

a = 1 + 1

becomes:

	ASGN
		ADDRG 0 ; Push addr of global 0
		ADD
			CONST 1
			CONST 1

(that's supposed to be a tree structure, BTW). This compiles to:

	copy :a (sp)
	copy 1 (sp)
	copy 1 (sp)
	add (sp) (sp) (sp)
	astore (sp) 0 (sp)

(though the compiler really optimises this quite a bit).

--- but it's also nasty because the Glulx stack doesn't live in the
standard address space. This means that you can't take a pointer to an
item on the stack and use it like any other pointer; which means I can't
use it for the C stack. This means that I can't use *any* of the nice
local-variable management features.

So what I'm doing is creating three `registers' --- memory locations at
the bottom of memory; :usp, :ufp and :urval. :usp is the C stack pointer.
:ufp is the C frame pointer, and :urval is used to store the return value
of a function.

To call a function, I have to push all parameters onto the C stack, which
is slightly painful:

	foo(1, 2);

	sub (:usp).l 4 (:usp).l
	astore (:usp).l 0 1
	sub (:usp).l 4 (:usp).l
	astore (:usp).l 0 2
	call :foo 0 ~

It would be really nice if I could pass parameters in locals, and leave
them on the stack. Not only would the code be smaller, but it'd be faster
and more efficient, too.

My calling convention looks like this:

:functionentrypoint
	copy (:ufp).l (sp)	; Save the old frame pointer
	copy (:usp).l (:ufp).l	; Get our new frame pointer
	sub (:usp).l 8 (:usp).l	; We're using 8 bytes of locals

	...code here...

:functionreturnpoint
	copy (sp) (:ufp).l	; Restore frame pointer
	add (:ufp).l 4 (:usp).l	; We use 4 bytes of parameters; we retract
				; over them here
	return (:urval).l	; Return

Locals and parameters are both referenced relative to the frame pointer.
Could I optimise this?

Currently the compiler generates code. Lots of code. Huge great tracts of
code. And some of the code even runs. I do have strange problems due to
variables getting corrupted, but I don't know if that's my fault or
glulxa's (hi, Simon).

Anyone have any comments?

-- 
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+ 
|  Work: dg@tao-group.com         | "Premature optimisation is the root of all
|  Play: dgiven@iname.com         | evil." --- Don Knuth, quoting Tony Hoare   
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ 


From im@cs.york.ac.uk Tue Jun  8 23:15:25 CEST 1999
Article: 60499 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Iain Merrick <im@cs.york.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Glulx C (danger: ramble)
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David Given wrote:

> I'm about 30% through a port of lcc to Glulx. (lcc's a retargetable C
> compiler, for those who are interested.) I thought that at this point I'd
> make a few comments on my experiences so far.

Wow! Excellent.

> The Glulx architecture is... peculiar.

Yes. :)

> The stack-based structure is both
> nice and nasty at the same time; it's nice, in that I don't have to worry
> about register allocation, and the lcc internal algorithm representation
> maps nicely onto it ---
[...]
> --- but it's also nasty because the Glulx stack doesn't live in the
> standard address space. This means that you can't take a pointer to an
> item on the stack and use it like any other pointer; which means I can't
> use it for the C stack. This means that I can't use *any* of the nice
> local-variable management features.

I was sort of thinking about this, for completely different reasons.

Perhaps I would be a good idea to have the Glulx stack located within
the normal Glulx memory map? In extended memory, for instance. I don't
see that this would necessarily break things, although little-endian
machines would have to use big-endian stack values. Andrew?

Giving user programs greater control over the stack would allow
co-routines, cooperative threads, and all sorts of other funky stuff.

> So what I'm doing is creating three `registers' --- memory locations at
> the bottom of memory; :usp, :ufp and :urval. :usp is the C stack pointer.
> :ufp is the C frame pointer, and :urval is used to store the return value
> of a function.
> 
> To call a function, I have to push all parameters onto the C stack, which
> is slightly painful:
> 
>         foo(1, 2);
> 
>         sub (:usp).l 4 (:usp).l
>         astore (:usp).l 0 1
>         sub (:usp).l 4 (:usp).l
>         astore (:usp).l 0 2
>         call :foo 0 ~
> 
> It would be really nice if I could pass parameters in locals, and leave
> them on the stack. Not only would the code be smaller, but it'd be faster
> and more efficient, too.

Hmmm... that is a bit fiddly.

Perhaps you could use 'registers' instead of a stack? Have, say, 32
low-memory words reserved for parameter passing: you'd just write the
values directly into them each time you do a function call, and copy
them onto the Glulx stack when you enter a function.

This is a bit like the IBM PowerPC calling conventions (which are used
on the Mac, I don't know about Linux). One useful property is that leaf
functions, which don't call any other functions, don't have to worry
about saving the parameters.

No, hang on, you need to take the addresses of C variables...? Well, you
could at least increase the stack pointer by N in a single step, rather
than doing subtract-1 over and over. Something like:

	foo (1, 2, 3, 4);

	sub    (:usp).b  16  (:usp).b
	astore (:usp).b   0  1
	astore (:usp).b   4  2
	astore (:usp).b   8  3
	astore (:usp).b  12  4
	call   :foo

Don't know if I have the syntax for astore right, but you get the idea.
I use (:usb).b because it ought to be byte-addressable, if it's on the
'zero page' -- again, I don't know if that's the correct glulxa syntax,
but it would make the code a lot smaller.

[...]
> Currently the compiler generates code. Lots of code. Huge great tracts of
> code. And some of the code even runs. I do have strange problems due to
> variables getting corrupted, but I don't know if that's my fault or
> glulxa's (hi, Simon).

Sounds like a good start. Well done!

> Anyone have any comments?

A Glk version would be good. :) (Although I expect lcc uses lots of Unix
tricks, like assuming that there will be a 'cpp' shell command, so this
probably isn't feasible.)

-- 
Iain Merrick
im@cs.york.ac.uk


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Jun  8 23:15:37 CEST 1999
Article: 60502 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Glulx C (danger: ramble)
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David Given (dg@tao.co.uk) wrote:
> I'm about 30% through a port of lcc to Glulx. (lcc's a retargetable C
> compiler, for those who are interested.)

I'm entirely boggled, if that helps. :)

> [...] but it's also nasty because the Glulx stack doesn't live in the
> standard address space. This means that you can't take a pointer to an
> item on the stack and use it like any other pointer; which means I can't
> use it for the C stack. This means that I can't use *any* of the nice
> local-variable management features.
>
> So what I'm doing is creating three `registers' --- memory locations at
> the bottom of memory; :usp, :ufp and :urval. :usp is the C stack pointer.
> :ufp is the C frame pointer, and :urval is used to store the return value
> of a function.

This is exactly what I would have suggested.

I can't really apologize for the wacky non-accessible stack format,
because native values on the stack are much faster than byte-ordered
values in memory. And Java gets away with it.

> To call a function, I have to push all parameters onto the C stack, which
> is slightly painful:

One way around this might be to have a small function which acts as a
wrapper for every C function. It's a stack-arg function; it transfers
everything on the Glulx stack to the C stack (except for the first value,
which is a function address) and then it calls the function address (using
@tailcall for efficiency, I guess.)

This makes the code smaller, though no faster.

Can you do optimization which puts C local variables in Glulx local
variables, when possible?

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Wed Jun  9 11:33:11 CEST 1999
Article: 60416 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: A new adult I-F
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:46:44 +0100
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In article <030619991825017603%newkid@killingtime.com>, new kid
<URL:mailto:newkid@killingtime.com> wrote:
> None of this prevents adult IF from being well done and worth while.
> Doing it is hard, because it is NPC based, and NPCs are darn hard to
> implement well. But it can be done. If you don't like it, don't play
> it. But if the idea intrigues you, then please write it well!

The end-of-the-middle-game puzzle in Big Al's seminal work
"Blow Job Drifter" is rather pleasing, I thought.  Meeting
an interesting woman who appears to have a personality, the
player is confronted with a real challenge: how to convert
her into one of the many vacuous zombies who have populated
the game so far.  It's just the perfect metaphor for something
or other.  I look forward to Mr Al's next work.

Did I say all that out loud?  Oh well.  

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Wed Jun  9 21:26:48 CEST 1999
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From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: SPAG (was: Interactive Fiction Reviewers Wanted...)
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In article <7jcaep$h4a$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,  <petroeh@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Oh, there's certainly nothing wrong with SPAG; it is a fine resource.  There
>are in fact many fine web sites devoted to IF, too.  However, I couldn't find
>exactly what I was looking for in any of them, hence the idea to create a new
>site.  As for SPAG, you said it: it's a zine.  It is a timely publication
>that is most interesting when read soon after an issue's initial release.  As
>a storinghouse for reviews, I find it pretty inefficient.  Sure, you can go
>through the mountains of text archived on the web site, but it is quite hard
>to find a particular game review.  The game review section makes it only
>slightly easier: huge pages again that are not so easy to wade through, and
>not all the issues are indexed yet, which means you might still have to look
>through the volumnious archives!  

I agree - these are the disadvantages of the 'zine format. The same
problems occur, of course, when you're trying to locate reviews of an
old book in journals and newspapers of the time.

Jason Melancon did a good job of indexing the first 13 issues, I
think, but then part of the index was lost in a disk crash (which is
why only the first ten issues are indexed now), and Jason hasn't had
the time to do any more indexing since then. Neither have I. And
though other people have volunteered to help with the Web page in
other ways, nobody seems to be interested and/or have the time to
update the index.

>Why isn't there a search function?  

For the same reason: nobody has volunteered the time to make one.

This is a problem with *all* free sites, of course. 

>The way
>SPAG reviews are presented do differ in a number of ways compared to what I
>had envisioned.  SPAG reviews are(usually...I have seen some exceptions)
>written by single reviewers 

I don't suppose you mean to imply that reviews should have multiple
authors, but rather that one should have several reviews of the same
game by different people? Well, that would be nice. The problem is getting
several people to review the same game. 

And there's a conflict of interests here:

Both you and I want to have

1) reviews of as many games as possible
2) as many reviewers as possible for each game.

But there is only a small number of people willing to write reviews, and
they only have so much time. I can only wish you good luck in attaining
both of the above goals simultaneously.

>who follow a uniform standard of rating games, as
>opposed to my idea of a site that insists upon multiple reviews per game,
>with the style of rating and reviewing left completely up to the individual
>reviewer.

Well, SPAG leaves more latitude to reviewers than it looks like. I
suppose the main reason for why the reviews look so uniform is that a
lot of the reviews are written by a small number of people. That is,
if there are a lot of reviews in exactly the same format it's because
they were written by the same reviewer.

>> And what do you mean by "regard for trend"? That people only review
>> the new games because the old ones aren't trendy enough? I suspect
>> there's a different reason: people only have so much time for playing
>> and reviewing IF, and with so much (relatively speaking, of course)
>> new stuff out there, it's only natural they'd want to try the new
>> releases first.
>
>Well, it's only natural that experienced game players be most interested in
>what's new, as they've already spent time with the older games.  But I can
>think of five or six excellent text games easily just from the past three
>years that have gotten very little publicity, and, alas, no mention from SPAG
>readers, either.  Instead, I keep seeing the same games reviewed over and
>over again on different sites(and, er, zines too), and I do get a little
>tired of it.

Yes, that's true, but I was really just objecting to your use of the
word "trend". People do tend to review their favourites, yes, and this
means that popular games get many reviews at the expense of less
popular games, but I'm not at all sure that this is because the
popular games are "trendy".

>I certainly measure games on a individual
>basis...statements like "this game is not up to regular Inform standards"
>make no sense to me. 

It makes perfect sense to me, but it must be taken with a *large*
grain of salt.

>How can, say, Inform have standards?  The quality of
>Inform games is dependent upon the work of the game programmers.  The author
>may have a good base to work from, but where he/she take it is completely up
>to them.  

Inform has standards in the sense that there's a corpus of what is
generally considered to be "good Inform games", and people set their
standards from this corpus (and similarly for TADS and AGT - I don't
think other systems have sufficiently many games written in them for
this to apply).

Note that by "good Inform games" I mean games that live up to the
standards you can expect of an Inform game (which means the game
doesn't really have to be very good from an "artistic" point of view,
but rather from a technical point of view). 

Yes, this definition is self-referential, and this means the
"standards" are self-generating and self-reinforcing. That's my view
of how the world works.

>But here we have a prime example of trends in the world of IF:
>people begin to assume that(just an example) Inform games are the best around
>because a few of them in particular have been so ecstatically reviewed, and
>they begin to play solely those.  They become comfortable with Inform, and
>they don't branch out.	This I don't think is a good thing, but could
>anything else be expected?

I think you're overstating the risk of this a bit - yes, it does
happen, but most IF aficionados seem to be more broad-minded than
that.

What does happen is that people get so used to a certain interface
(such as Infocom's, or the Inform library's, or TADS's, or AGT's) that
they regard every step aside from that interface as a bug. "What? I
can't abbreviate 'examine' to 'x'? This game is no good!" (Note that
this remark applies to most Infocom games). But this is a slightly
different phenomenon - it's more a matter of being so used to certain
conventions that anything else irritates you, than of trendiness.

And yes, I'm also irritated by the people who issue blanket
condemnations of all AGT games because they don't live up to Inform
standards - until I try playing an AGT game and get immensely
frustrated because of the limitations that game engine imposes on the
game.


-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From glasser@iname.com Thu Jun 10 11:19:08 CEST 1999
Article: 60641 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: glasser@iname.com (David Glasser)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: MST3K1 and MST3K2 - call for comments.
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Adam J. Thornton <adam@princeton.edu> wrote:

> Why not just use the Forman/Rees' Quip code with the Coward/Bastard
> extensions, hacked slightly for color support? 

I would just like to say that that is one of the funniest things I've
seen all day out of context.

More bizarre is the fact that it makes sense in context.

-- 
David Glasser: glasser@iname.com | raif FAQ: http://come.to/raiffaq/
"It's good to explore the G.U.E. caves / It's good to explore the G.U.E.
caves / You can count all the leaves / You can KILL TROLL WITH SWORD /
You'll get stuck but you won't be bored"-Joe.Mason, rec.arts.int-fiction


From neilc@norwich.edu Thu Jun 10 20:47:57 CEST 1999
Article: 60658 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] GIVE GARBAGE TO NPC
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:31:22 GMT
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In article <375f4f45.4068782@news.csupomona.edu>,
  icallaci@csupomona.edu wrote:
> Inform 6.21, Library 6/9
>
> I'm having a problem with GIVE X TO NPC when X is not available.
> (X can be either a valid game object that is not in scope, or it
> can be invalid garbage; it doesn't matter.)
>
> Example:
>
> 	>GIVE DONUT TO COP
>
> works fine if the player character is holding the donut. But
> if the donut is not in scope OR the player enters:
>
> 	>GIVE DKDKD TO COP
>
> the following message is returned:
>
> 	You aren't holding the cop.
>
> In other words, noun and second seem to be reversed. This does
> not happen with Library 6/8.
>
> Anyone else experiencing this?

In 6/8 or so Graham changed the meaning of return values of the
ParseToken routine, but didn't catch every return value that needed to
be changed. I was getting an error with the word 'all' used with tokens
that could not be multiples. I think your error is caused by a similar
problem.

Let's see: Oh yes.

Around line 1880 or so in Parserm.h, lib 6/9, is the following:

if (l==0)
{   if (indef_possambig)
    {   ResetDescriptors(); wn = desc_wn; jump TryAgain2; }
        etype=CantSee(); return l; ! Choose best error
    }

That 'return l' (l as in look) should be 'return -1' (1 as in one).

Similarly, the error correction to 'push all' or 'sit on all' is in the
same function, right after the .TryAgain label:

.TryAgain;
! First, we parse any descriptive words (like "the", "five" or "every"):
l = Descriptors(token_allows_multiple); if (l~=0) { etype=l; return 0; }

That 'return 0' should be 'return -1'.

I've tested these corrections, and emailed them to Graham, but since I
don't know if he will have time to get back to me, here they are. If
anyone can confirm or deny these changes, let me know.

I don't believe there are any other problems with return values in
ParseToken.

--
Neil Cerutti
neilc@norwich.edu


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.


From erkyrath@netcom.com Fri Jun 11 16:23:59 CEST 1999
Article: 60704 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: MiSTings - legal and ethical considerations (was: MST3K1 and MST3K2 - call for comments.)
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Gareth Rees (garethr@cre.canon.co.uk) wrote:

> If you want to write a MST3K parody of someone else's game, why not ask
> them for permission?  They might say "yes".

That's about what it comes down to.

I submit that I have been parodied and referenced more often than any
other single IF author. (Though never as intensely as a MST3K-style work.)

(I should say "any other IF author active on this newsgroup." Otherwise
the Zork authors win by a mile.)

When someone is parodying the concept or setting of a game, as in "The
Chicken Under The Window", that's fine.

When someone is throwing in a one-line reference, as in the "deep shadow"
message in _Losing Your Grip_, that's fine.

When someone is quoting actual chunks of game, as in _Sins Against 
Mimesis_, it's polite to ask. Adam Thornton sent me a copy of _SAM_ to
beta-test. It was funny as hell, but I did think that the way he quoted
_So Far_ wasn't quite appropriate; it was a spoiler, of a sort, and
reduced the effect of playing _So Far_ if you hadn't yet. I expressed this
opinion. Adam changed that section a bit. Everything was cool. 

It's probably arrogant to say that there's a difference between parodying
_Detective_, which is only famous for being bad, and parodying _Muse_ and
_So Far_, which are well-regarded works. If the author of _Detective_ had
still been contactable, CEF probably should have contacted him. I will go
so far as to say that wasn't a big deal; he didn't contact Barringer, it
was years ago, the wench is dead. 

However, I don't think it's a good habit to get into. 

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Mon Jun 14 10:11:17 CEST 1999
Article: 60605 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Glulx C (danger: ramble)
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David Given (dg@tao.co.uk) wrote:
> In article <erkyrathFD0opx.A0@netcom.com>,
> 	erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) writes:
> > Gevan (shanos@es.co.nz) wrote:
> > 
> >> > BTW, we could *really* use a standard Glulx object file format and
> >> > linker...
> > 
> > Not to mention an assembly language syntax.

> There seem to be two contenders currently; Gevan's AT&T-oid one and
> Simon's downright weird (but working) one. 

Three: The Inform assembly syntax that we already use in Z-code games will
be used by the Glulx assembler as well. Except I haven't decided how to
extend it.

> Frankly, I don't think it matters much provided they work.

Oh, eventually we'll care.

> The OS the company I work for is developing, Elate, has a similar problem
> with C code. Elate doesn't really have a concept of an object file; so
> what the C compiler does is to emit assembly. The `linker' than
> concatenates the assembly files together, performs a bit of postprocessing
> to make statics unique, and passes the whole lot through our proprietry
> assembler to produce a single executable (a `tool' in our terminology).
> This does mean that you occasionally get such horrors as an assembly file
> ten megabytes long, but it works. We could easily do something similar as
> a pro-tem solution.

> > If you want to invent one, keep in mind that it should handle Inform
> > linking (modules) as well as C-style linking. Unfortunately, Inform
> > linking is a grim wasteland of blood and despair. I haven't even tried to
> > implement it for Glulx yet.

> Perhaps this would be a good excuse to sanitise?

That would be a lot of work. I'm trying to rewrite only *half* of the
Inform compiler....

> BTW, Sieve of Eratosthenes, anyone?
>
> http://wired.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~dg/IF/sieve.ulx
>
> You can get the source, assembly file, and the compiler module from:
>
> http://wired.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~dg/IF
>
> Note that this is most likely the last gasp of my compiler, as Gevan's
> produces far better code. But it may be interesting.

Nifty.

> Also note that you may have to fix the sexb opcode in glulxe before it'll
> run.

I've uploaded a new version of the source code -- glulxe 0.22 -- which
fixes that bug.

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Sun Jun 20 23:42:45 CEST 1999
Article: 60970 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Z-machine C
Message-ID: <erkyrathFDJ1Cy.4q0@netcom.com>
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David Given (dg@tao.co.uk) wrote:
> Since Gevan is working on a Glulx C compiler, I switched track and started
> work on a Z-machine C compiler. [...]

> The Z-machine has an utterly *manic* processor.

Why, yes.

> Does @loadb sign extend bytes?

No.

> Are there any real assemblers out there?

Someone wrote a "zasm".

> There don't seem to be any unsigned comparison operators; anyone know of
> any decent algorithms for simulating them with signed comparison ones?

Inform uses:

[ Unsigned__Compare x y u v;
  if (x==y) return 0;
  if (x<0 && y>=0) return 1;
  if (x>=0 && y<0) return -1;
  u = x&$7fff; v= y&$7fff;
  if (u>v) return 1;
  return -1;
];

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Jun 23 05:46:02 CEST 1999
Article: 61074 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!ix.netcom.com!erkyrath
From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: [Inform] objectloops and IndirectlyContains or ScopeCeiling
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Irene Callaci (icallaci@csupomona.edu) wrote:
> >> objectloop (i ofclass Money && IndirectlyContains(location, i))
> >> objectloop (i ofclass Money && ScopeCeiling(i)==ScopeCeiling(player))

> Yep, you're right. I just tried an objectloop with a non-dynamically
> created class and IndirectlyContains(), and it worked fine.

Okay, I see the problem. It is indeed including non-created
items. Non-created items are stored in the class object (the "Money"
class, in this case.) IndirectlyContains tries to go up the containment
tree, but you can't call parent(Money). (Well, in fact you can -- it's
legal Z-machine code, and will return 0 -- but Inform's strict mode flags
it as a problem anyway, because it distinguishes between class objects and
normal objects.)

The workaround here is to say

objectloop (i ofclass Money && i notin Money &&
    IndirectlyContains(location, i))

That excludes non-created items.

The problem is, this business about "non-created items are stored in the
class object" isn't documented. There is no documented way, as far as I
know, to test whether an object reference is created or still sitting
around in limbo.

The safe thing would be to have a "created" flag on each object, which you
set in the create method and clear in the destroy method. You could do
this either with a property or an attribute. Then you could write

objectloop (i ofclass Money && i has created &&
    IndirectlyContains(location, i))

or

objectloop (i ofclass Money && i.created == true &&
    IndirectlyContains(location, i))

--Z

-- 

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From jcmason@uwaterloo.ca Wed Jun 23 05:46:42 CEST 1999
Article: 61090 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: jcmason@uwaterloo.ca (Joe Mason)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] objectloops and IndirectlyContains or ScopeCeiling
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icallaci@csupomona.edu <icallaci@csupomona.edu> wrote:
>I actually want to do a little more inside the objectloop, but not
>until I can get it working in its basic form, above. (For example,
>I don't want money inside closed containers to be counted. That's
>why I'm reasonably satisfied with TestScope(), which does almost
>exactly what I need. But it is slower.)

I think you'd be happier not using an objectloop at all.  Try LoopOverScope:

  LoopOverScope(R,actor)
  Calls routine R(obj) for each object obj in scope.  actor is optional:
  if it's given, then scope is calculated for the given actor, not the
  player.
 
(p192 of the DM)

Joe
-- 
"Think hard and long about what your favorite book is. Once identified, read
it a paragraph at a time. Then after having read the paragraph, read each 
sentence. See the way the sentences interrelate. Then, read the words..."
  -- Mike Berlyn, on learning to write


From dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu Thu Jun 24 20:52:17 CEST 1999
Article: 61106 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu (Ethan Dicks)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: ZDungeon release 12 is out
Date: 23 Jun 1999 07:57:55 GMT
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It's the moment you've all been waiting for.  OK.  It's the moment
*some* of you have been waiting for.  Alright, alright.  It's the
moment *one* of you has been waiting for, and YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

ZDungeon has been around the block enough that I'm declaring it
finished.  Future bugs will be repaired as they are reported.
New releases will follow as needed.

It's available from ftp.gmd.de (in the if-archive/incoming directory
for now) and from the ZDungeon home page at

    http://www.infinet.com/~erd/retrocomputing/zdungeon/

The four things fixed this time around are:

  o The annoying "GO WINDOW" bug that was never reported to me directly
    (I read about it on deja.com).  It now reports the same error as
    the 500-point version of Zork does on real ITS system.

  o The Thief works better.  He now pauses to admire your bribes.

  o The Thief's Hideaway has had an upgrade to the intruder detection
    code.

  o The U.S. News and Dungeon report now points to Graham Nelson's
    Inform home page (thanks to whoever brought that to my attention).

Go forth.  Consume.  Enjoy.

-ethan




-- 
Ethan Dicks                                      http://www.infinet.com/~erd/
(dicks) at (math) . (ohio-state) . (edu)       sellto: postmaster@[127.0.0.1]

harvestbot fodder: president@whitehouse.gov fccinfo@fcc.gov root@[127.0.0.1]


From dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu Thu Jun 24 20:52:25 CEST 1999
Article: 61106 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: dicks@math.ohio-state.NO.SPAM.edu (Ethan Dicks)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: ZDungeon release 12 is out
Date: 23 Jun 1999 07:57:55 GMT
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It's the moment you've all been waiting for.  OK.  It's the moment
*some* of you have been waiting for.  Alright, alright.  It's the
moment *one* of you has been waiting for, and YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

ZDungeon has been around the block enough that I'm declaring it
finished.  Future bugs will be repaired as they are reported.
New releases will follow as needed.

It's available from ftp.gmd.de (in the if-archive/incoming directory
for now) and from the ZDungeon home page at

    http://www.infinet.com/~erd/retrocomputing/zdungeon/

The four things fixed this time around are:

  o The annoying "GO WINDOW" bug that was never reported to me directly
    (I read about it on deja.com).  It now reports the same error as
    the 500-point version of Zork does on real ITS system.

  o The Thief works better.  He now pauses to admire your bribes.

  o The Thief's Hideaway has had an upgrade to the intruder detection
    code.

  o The U.S. News and Dungeon report now points to Graham Nelson's
    Inform home page (thanks to whoever brought that to my attention).

Go forth.  Consume.  Enjoy.

-ethan




-- 
Ethan Dicks                                      http://www.infinet.com/~erd/
(dicks) at (math) . (ohio-state) . (edu)       sellto: postmaster@[127.0.0.1]

harvestbot fodder: president@whitehouse.gov fccinfo@fcc.gov root@[127.0.0.1]


From icallaci@csupomona.edu Tue Jun 29 17:47:39 CEST 1999
Article: 61333 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: icallaci@csupomona.edu (Irene Callaci)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] Suppress Print for Multiple Objects?
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:27:49 GMT
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On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:21:03 GMT, icallaci@csupomona.edu (Irene
Callaci) wrote:

>I'm probably overlooking something simple, but I can't
>seem to figure out how to suppress multiple messages
>when more than one identical object is involved in an
>action.
>
>Example:
>
>In my game, I want the PC to be able to:
>
>>GIVE 3 DIMES TO THE NPC
>
>This works just fine, except that it generates the
>same message three times, i.e.:
>
>dime: "What's this?" sneers the NPC. "A token of your
>appreciation?" He throws the dime across his desk at you.
>dime: "What's this?" sneers the NPC. "A token of your
>appreciation?" He throws the dime across his desk at you.
>dime: "What's this?" sneers the NPC. "A token of your
>appreciation?" He throws the dime across his desk at you.

Well, I came up with a compromise that seems to work.
If anyone is interested, here's what I did:

Extended the grammar for the ##Give action to allow
multiheld objects, and created a global counter 
variable to keep track of how many Money objects
have been processed.

Then, in the NPC's Life routine, for the ##Give
action, I use the following:

if (noun ofclass Money)
{	counter++;
	if (noun ofclass Nickels or Dimes or Quarters)
	{	if (noun ofclass Nickels)
			Nickels.destroy(noun);
		if (noun ofclass Dimes)
			Dimes.destroy(noun);
		if (noun ofclass Quarters)
			Quarters.destroy(noun);
		print "Done.^";
		if (counter == multiple_object-->0 || multiflag == false)
		{	counter = 0;
			print "^~What's this?~ sneers the NPC. ~A token of your
appreciation?~ He throws the coin";
			if (multiflag == true) print "s";
			" out the window in disgust. ~No, thanks.~";
		}
	}
	else
	{	self.cost = self.cost + noun.value;
		if (noun ofclass OneDollarBills)
			OneDollarBills.destroy(noun);
		if (noun ofclass FiveDollarBills)
			FiveDollarBills.destroy(noun);
		if (noun ofclass TenDollarBills)
			TenDollarBills.destroy(noun);
		if (noun ofclass TwentyDollarBills)
			TwentyDollarBills.destroy(noun);

		print "The NPC slips the bill into his shirt pocket.^";
		if (counter == multiple_object-->0 || multiflag == false)
		{	counter = 0;
			if (self.cost >= 500)
				"^~As I was saying...anything I can help you with,
just ask.~";
		}
	}
	rtrue;
}

This produces the following output:

>GIVE THREE QUARTERS TO NPC
quarter: Done.
quarter: Done.
quarter: Done.

"What's this?" sneers the NPC. "A token of your appreciation?" He
throws the coins out the window in disgust. "No, thanks."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Jun 29 17:47:56 CEST 1999
Article: 61334 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] Suppress Print for Multiple Objects?
Date: 29 Jun 1999 13:48:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Irene Callaci <icallaci@csupomona.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:21:03 GMT, icallaci@csupomona.edu (Irene
> Callaci) wrote:
> 
>>I'm probably overlooking something simple, but I can't
>>seem to figure out how to suppress multiple messages
>>when more than one identical object is involved in an
>>action.
>
> Well, I came up with a compromise that seems to work.
> If anyone is interested, here's what I did:
> 
> Extended the grammar for the ##Give action to allow
> multiheld objects, and created a global counter 
> variable to keep track of how many Money objects
> have been processed.

You could also extend the grammar for Give to use a general parsing
routine, parse out "three quarters" (or any amount of money) as a magical
cash object, set a global variable for the amount, and then write your own
code for the actual coin fiddling.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Jun 29 18:45:06 CEST 1999
Article: 61335 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: erkyrath@netcom.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] Function keys
Date: 29 Jun 1999 13:59:47 GMT
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David Fillmore <Marvin@noslwop.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In some of the original Infocom games, pressing the function keys would
> print
> something like 'read about' or 'examine', as though the player had typed it.
> Is there any way to do this in an Inform game? I know how to get a keypress
> to do something, but I can't print the instructions properly.

Yes, but it's new in the compiler -- Inform 6.21 only -- and not all
interpreters support it either. (As usual, I'm behind the curve. Sorry.
Been busy... but probably many interpreters won't recognize the function
keys in any case, so I'm not the only one.)

You would add a directive 

Zcharacter terminating 133 144;

to mark the entire range of function keys (1 to 12) as "terminating
characters". Then check the value stored by the @aread opcode, which will
be the key that was hit to terminate line input. Normally it's 13 (enter),
but with the above directive, it could be 133 to 144 as well.

Note that many interpreters alreayd let the player define and play macros,
without any help from the game.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From badanoj@bright.net Fri Jul  2 11:14:59 CEST 1999
Article: 61414 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: badanoj@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [INFORM] News about  Italian Inform
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 04:05:43 GMT
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"Giovanni Riccardi" <g.riccardi@sarionline.com> wrote:

> Beta-testing of Italian Inform Library is now
> in its phase two. A second (corrected) version
> of the library has been released together with
> "Avventura" (the Italian "Advent") and "Negozio
> di giocattoli" (an Italian version of "Toyshop").
> I started to make a translation of "Balances"
> and i'm planning to write an Italian manual
> of Inform.

Just take the DM and run it through AltaVista's translator app... 

************ dell' introduzione 

Mi costruir una torretta di rame con quattro modi fuori e nessun
modo in ma estrarre il glory, estrarre l' pontenza... 

    -- Louis MacNeice (1907-1963), volo del cuore 

Informare  un sistema per la creazione dei giochi di avventura e
questo  il libro da leggere su esso. 

Gli archivi `story di formato di Infocom (i giochi di avventura,
quello ) possono essere giocati su quasi tutto il calcolatore, dai
organisers personali agli elaboratori centrali, con l' aiuto
programmi del `interpreter '. L' operazione del `compiler di
informazione '  di tradurre una descrizione testuale d'un gioco in
archivio di storia. Il risultato giocher identicamente su tutta la
macchina di qualunque modello. 

Informare  un suite di software, chiamato il `library ', cos come
un compilatore.  Senza la libreria, sarebbe un' impresa importante
per scrivere ad una descrizione di persino il pi piccolo gioco. La
libreria ha due ingredienti: l' analizzatore sintattico, un programma
per la traduzione degli input inglesi scritti nei giochi della
forma inscatola facilmente capisce ed il modello del mondo ", un Web
complesso delle regole 

[...]

HTH.HAND.




[For those curious, I ran the above BACK through to English and got
this...]

************ of the introduction 

I will construct one turret of branch with four ways outside and no
way in but extracting the glory, to extract the pontenza... 

    -- Louis MacNeice (1907-1963), flight of the heart 

To inform is a system for the creation of the adventure games and
this is the book to read on it. 

The archives `story of format of Infocom (the adventure games, that
one are) can be played on nearly all the calculating, from the
organisers personal to the central processors, with the aid programs
of the `interpreter'. The operation of the `compiler of information'
is translate a testuale description of a game in the history
archives. The result will identically play on all the machine of any
model. 

To inform is a suite of software, called the `library ', therefore
like a compiler.  Without the bookcase, it would be an enterprise
important in order to even write to a description the smallest game.
The bookcase has two ingredients: the syntactic analyzer, a programm 

[...]


 -- jonadab

Username in email address is dyslexic; correct to jonadab




From neilc@norwich.edu Fri Jul  2 13:39:04 CEST 1999
Article: 61260 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Announce] [Inform] I don't know the word "inform".
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 03:23:34 GMT
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In article <3774f85a.25637056@news.csupomona.edu>,
  icallaci@csupomona.edu wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:00:07 GMT, icallaci@csupomona.edu (Irene
> Callaci) wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:48:18 GMT, Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>I couldn't find an extension on the archive that allowed printing
> >>of the old Infocom error message, "I don't know the word "xxx"."
> >>I've pasted in a library extension I wrote to make this happen.
> >
> >[snip code]
> >
> >This is neat! Thank you.
>
> No, I take that back. It's more than neat; it's terrific!
> I can finally remove all those extra adjectives I stuck in
> my game, just in case someone referred to the "old, torn,
> yellowed newspaper" as the "ripped newspaper" or the
> "yellow newspaper" or whatever. Instead of "You can't see
> any such thing" the player now sees "You don't need to use
> the word 'yellow' to play this game." (I changed the message
> slightly.)
>
> Thank you!

You're welcome.

'PrintUnknownToken(wordnum)' is probably the most useful thing in
dunno.h.

It saves everybody else from the bother of squinting at parserm.h to
see how Graham did it. :-)

--
Neil Cerutti
neilc@norwich.edu


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.


From d91tan@Update.UU.SE Fri Jul  2 15:00:55 CEST 1999
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From: d91tan@Update.UU.SE (Torbjrn Andersson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Announce] [Inform] I don't know the word "inform".
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Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom17.netcom.com> wrote:

> I remember playing Infocom games, and typing various words to try to guess
> what was a red herring and what would actually appear later in the game.

Heh, I remember doing that, as well. If memory serves me, the travel
agent in Bureaucracy was particularly revealing. The game dialogue
could go something like the following, completely made up, example:

  >ASK TRAVEL AGENT ABOUT MAN
  "The homicidal one-legged man, eating celery? No, I don't think I've
  ever heard of that."

Torbjrn


From neilc@norwich.edu Fri Jul  2 15:01:13 CEST 1999
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From: Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Announce] [Inform] I don't know the word "inform".
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 01:00:28 GMT
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In article <7l5l1d$30r@dfw-ixnews21.ix.netcom.com>,
  Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom17.netcom.com> wrote:
> I remember playing Infocom games, and typing various words to try to
guess
> what was a red herring and what would actually appear later in the
game.

In that case, you are a very, very bad boy. :-)

> (The author can counter by putting red herring words in the
dictionary,
> but this is a stupid escalation of the problem, not a solution.)

I was amused by the Zork 3 trick of echoing back what you typed (if it
was not in scope, and all the words were in the dictionary).

>examine the yellow
I don't see any yellow here.

>examine the yellow lamp
I don't see any yellow lamp here.

>examine the yellow lamp stranger
I don't see any yellow lamp stranger here.

--
Neil Cerutti
neilc@norwich.edu


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Fri Jul  2 15:01:26 CEST 1999
Article: 61425 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Announce] [Inform] I don't know the word "inform".
Date: 2 Jul 1999 15:00:22 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology
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In article <7l5l1d$30r@dfw-ixnews21.ix.netcom.com>,
Andrew Plotkin  <erkyrath@netcom17.netcom.com> wrote:
>Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> wrote:
>I remember playing Infocom games, and typing various words to try to guess
>what was a red herring and what would actually appear later in the game.
>
>(The author can counter by putting red herring words in the dictionary,
>but this is a stupid escalation of the problem, not a solution.)

You mean you typed words more or less at random, like "herring" just
to see if there was a herring anywhere in the game? Well, it's hard to
do anything about that; I'm on Irene's side in thinking that Inform's
solution is unnecessarily heavy-handed.

>If the player types "get yellowing newspaper", and the game replies "I see
>no such thing here", the player is confused. This is bad. You can either
>change the error message to clarify the game's insufficiency, or you can
>fix the insufficiency: add "yellowing" to the newspaper's name. Obviously,
>the latter is the course I prefer, if it's at all possible.

However, we still have the problem with misspellings and typos. For
example:


| Small cave
| 
| You are in a small cave, illuminated by the glow of the fluorescent
| mushrooms growing on the walls. A dark tunnel leads off to the north.
| 
| >n
| 
| Dark corridor
| 
| You are in a dark corridor. You can't see a thing, apart from a faint,
| greenish glow to the south.
| 
| >n
| 
| Stumbling about in the dark is dangerous. You might fall and break
| your neck.
| 
| >light lamp
| 
| Unfortunately, since your little swim in the subterreanean lake
| earlier the batteries seem to have gone dead.
| 
| >s
| 
| Small cave
| 
| >take fluoresent mushroom
| 
| I can see no such thing.

Isn't the player likely to conclude that the mushrooms are just
unimplemented scenery, thus missing the solution to his problem?

At least I find it very helpful as a player when the game actually
tells me that I've misspelled a word; "I don't know the word
'fluoresent'" is at least likely to prompt me to try some synonym,
or look for misspellings. 

(BTW, how common is the cliche of caves illuminated by fluorescent
mushrooms, really? I must confess to having used it myself, in
"Dunjin").


-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From erkyrath@netcom.com Fri Jul  2 18:29:22 CEST 1999
Article: 61429 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!ix.netcom.com!not-for-mail
From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] Yes/No conversations
Date: 2 Jul 1999 15:21:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Nick C. <nickca@churchoffookiesnakesio.com> wrote:
> How do I implement yes/no conversations, where an NPC asks a question, recieves
> an answer, and asks another question based on the answer? For example, the
> conversations between the interrogator and the player in "Spider and Web"? 
> I have tried using yesno.h from the archive, but all I can accomplish with
> this is one question, one answer. I can't even begin to figure out how to
> do this using an orders routine.

What I wound up doing was having a global variable "current_question",
which holds a question object, more or less like:

Object CheeseQuestion
with
  if_yes [; 
    print "Would you like some now?";
    current_question = WantCheeseQuestion;
  ],
  if_no [;
    print "Me too. What about sprouts?";
    current_question = SproutsQuestion;
  ];

And then the yes and no verbs check current_question and call the
appropriate method.

Remember to set current_question to 0 when no question is extant, and
check for that case.

Of course, this is a very simplistic model. It assumes that there's only
one question active in the whole game, and it's accessible from anywhere
in the game. (This is true in "Spider and Web", of course, since at that
point in the game the player can't go anywhere else.)

If you have characters moving in and out, it might be better to have a
"current_question" *property* on each one, and check
"person.current_question" when the player says "yes" or "no" to that
person.

Oh, speaking of verbs: I think it's important to handle all these cases:

> YES
> SAY YES
> SAY YES TO MAN
> MAN, YES

This takes a bit of work.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From icallaci@csupomona.edu Fri Jul  2 21:26:24 CEST 1999
Article: 61436 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: icallaci@csupomona.edu (Irene Callaci)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] GIVE FIVE TO NPC
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 19:24:00 GMT
Organization: California State Polytechnic University Pomona
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On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:37:27 -0400, "Joe Merical"
<jmerical@citynet.net> wrote:

>Check ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/programming/inform6/library/contributions/ for a
>money.h which already worked out the problems you're having. Using library
>files is a lot easier than trying to fix it yourself.

I did take a look at money.h, which is a wonderful piece of work,
but it has (or at least had, when I last looked at it) some problems
with the newer versions of Inform. Plus, it doesn't have a ##Count
action and is missing a couple of other things I need for this game.
I believe it also has the same problem with TAKE FIVE I ran into.
The author (Erik Hetzner) is obviously a skilled Inform programmer,
and I hope he continues to update it. It just didn't quite meet my
needs with this particular game. More's the pity--maybe I'd be
finished with my game by now. Nah...I'd find some other excuse for
putting off writing NPC conversation topics.

irene


From jmerical@citynet.net Fri Jul  2 21:26:40 CEST 1999
Article: 61433 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.101.104.69!news.citynet.net!not-for-mail
From: "Joe Merical" <jmerical@citynet.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [INFORM] Infotake.h
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:46:24 -0400
Organization: Citynet, Charleston WV
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Well, just uploaded the new version of INFOTAKE.H.  Right now, it's in the
incoming directory, but should be moved soon to where the original one is
now.

Joe Merical <jmerical@citynet.net> wrote in message
news:7le32b$s6s$1@news.citynet.net...
> Infotake.h can be found in
> ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/programming/inform6/library/contributions. The file
> replaces many of the INFORM messages with those used in ZORK. The first
> release serves no actual programming purpose, and in fact, causes the game
> to crash if you try "TAKE ALL" (an error which I fixed for the next
> release).  But the next release, which I should be uploading this week,
will
> include more useful items, including the DIAGNOSE command and the Zork
brass
> lantern.  In the future, I also wish to add weight limits, the elvish
sword,
> "trophy_case" and "treasure" classes, grues, and an example game.  If you
> would like to help, please contact me.  This is my first major piece of
> programming, I need all the help I can get.
>
> - Joe Merical
>
>




From shadz@rocketmail.com Thu Jul  8 09:53:57 CEST 1999
Article: 61610 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: ShadZ <shadz@rocketmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,alt.drinks.kool-aid,alt.animation.warner-bros
Subject: Re: Irn Bru
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 02:04:22 GMT
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In article <377dbd84.11068346@news.bright.net>,
  badanoj@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One) wrote:
> ross_presser@NOSPAMimtek.com (Ross Presser) wrote:
>
> > And, by the way, Acme isn't all that mythical -- there's a local
chain of
> > supermarkets called Acme. :)
>
> I'm not sure how local it is; I think they exist across large
> portions of the US.  (Although that is still somewhat local on a
> global scale...  but then so is any chain other than McDonald's)

I think that when the animatiors at Waerners started using the name,
Acme was a popular name for businesses, but none of the businesses that
used the name were very big.  One town would have an Acme Trucking, and
another would have Acme Pharmacy, but the two wouldn't be related in
any way . . . So "Acme" could be thought of as a generic name
for a business

Lately, I've noticed a lot of small businesses called Sterling, but
no nationally known big firm with that name . . . could Sterling
become the Acme of the next century?

--
	    Shad Z.
     (ShadZ@rocketmail.com)
	      ^Q^
http://www.homestead.com/shadz/files/


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.


From rit@harlequin.com Thu Jul  8 17:26:12 CEST 1999
Article: 61618 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: rit@harlequin.com (Richard Tucker)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Text parser information
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:10:51 +0100
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In article <7lvn4g$mi6$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>,
Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
| Is this the same Mellish who co-authored the standard
| prolog textbook?
|
Yes, indeed.
 
| 
| Well, it is parsing in the usual sense of extracting the parts of
| speech, or alternatively of breaking down a sentence into the
| terminals of a generative grammar.
|
I guess that's true, but only in a very weak sense: it [the inform
parser] has no explicit grammar except at the level of "grammar lines"
-- if you want to know, for example, the grammar for noun phrases you have
to deduce it from what the code does. Also, it doesn't construct any
representation of the structure of the input (e.g. a parse tree), beyond
the eventual output in terms of actions and objects. But having said
this, I'd still call it a parser -- I can't think of a better word for
what it does.

Richard/


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Thu Jul  8 21:57:12 CEST 1999
Article: 61631 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Defining IF (yet again) (was: Are there any IF+RPG?)
Date: 8 Jul 1999 21:55:48 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <7m2vo4$9v7$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <377FF15C.F876E480@radcom.co.il> <37840842.6F689266@jump.net> <7m1rau$aqa$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <7m2kp8$h7t@dfw-ixnews13.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <7m2kp8$h7t@dfw-ixnews13.ix.netcom.com>,
Daniel Giaimo <dgiaimo@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote in message
>news:7m1rau$aqa$1@bartlet.df.lth.se...
>> Which people have done: Nethack, the direct descendant of Rogue,
>> contains a rudimentary plot, quests of different kinds, etc. It's
>> still not IF. WHy? Perhaps because the plot is not integral to the
>> game, but just an excuse for fighting monsters?
>
>    The plot is very integral to the game in Nethack.  You can't win without
>completing your quest.

Yes, but the quest itself consist only of fighting monsters. And (with
the exception of your Quest Nemesis) what monsters appear, how they
attack you, all the details, are random.

There is a plot structure in Nethack, yes. It serves to give an overall
structure to what would otherwise just be a lot of random encounters
with monsters. In contrast, the plot structure in an IF game *is* the
game.

Another take on it:

You could in principle read a transcript of an IF game as a book. A very
strange book, and a book in sore need of editing, but still it would
be recognizable as a story.

You could write a story *about* a Nethack game, but the game itself
is not a story. Of course, this makes Nethack more like real life than
an IF game is. 

Perhaps you could say that Nethack is more of a simulation given
structure by a story, while an IF game is a story told with the
simulation as its medium.

Take away the plot from Nethack and you have a less structured,
less interesting game, but still a game with the same basic idea.

Take away the plot from an IF game and you have nothing. (Note: I'm
using the non-standard definition of "plot" from my earlier post, so I
count puzzles as plot).


-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Thu Jul  8 21:57:59 CEST 1999
Article: 61631 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Defining IF (yet again) (was: Are there any IF+RPG?)
Date: 8 Jul 1999 21:55:48 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <7m2vo4$9v7$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <377FF15C.F876E480@radcom.co.il> <37840842.6F689266@jump.net> <7m1rau$aqa$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <7m2kp8$h7t@dfw-ixnews13.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <7m2kp8$h7t@dfw-ixnews13.ix.netcom.com>,
Daniel Giaimo <dgiaimo@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote in message
>news:7m1rau$aqa$1@bartlet.df.lth.se...
>> Which people have done: Nethack, the direct descendant of Rogue,
>> contains a rudimentary plot, quests of different kinds, etc. It's
>> still not IF. WHy? Perhaps because the plot is not integral to the
>> game, but just an excuse for fighting monsters?
>
>    The plot is very integral to the game in Nethack.  You can't win without
>completing your quest.

Yes, but the quest itself consist only of fighting monsters. And (with
the exception of your Quest Nemesis) what monsters appear, how they
attack you, all the details, are random.

There is a plot structure in Nethack, yes. It serves to give an overall
structure to what would otherwise just be a lot of random encounters
with monsters. In contrast, the plot structure in an IF game *is* the
game.

Another take on it:

You could in principle read a transcript of an IF game as a book. A very
strange book, and a book in sore need of editing, but still it would
be recognizable as a story.

You could write a story *about* a Nethack game, but the game itself
is not a story. Of course, this makes Nethack more like real life than
an IF game is. 

Perhaps you could say that Nethack is more of a simulation given
structure by a story, while an IF game is a story told with the
simulation as its medium.

Take away the plot from Nethack and you have a less structured,
less interesting game, but still a game with the same basic idea.

Take away the plot from an IF game and you have nothing. (Note: I'm
using the non-standard definition of "plot" from my earlier post, so I
count puzzles as plot).


-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Fri Jul  9 13:26:02 CEST 1999
Article: 61645 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Text parser information
Date: 9 Jul 1999 10:44:28 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <7m4cpc$3n1$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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In article <7m3r29$qcd$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, Muse <musez@softhome.net> wrote:
>Now does anyone have any idea how a parse-tree could be used in code to parse a
>given sentence?  Or any links to anything relevant?  This is my original
>problem.  I do actually HAVE a parse tree here, y'see.  But no idea how to use
>the thing!  As ever, any input on this would be much appreciated.  Thanks,

I sense a potential confusion here: 

What do you mean by using a parse tree to parse a sentence? The parse
tree is the *output* from the parser (or, rather, one kind of output -
there are parsers, such as Inform's, that don't produce trees).

Take the sentence

"give the big ruby to the ugly troll"

Suppose you have grammar productions that look like this:

<command> -> <verb> <noun_phrase> <preposition> <noun_phrase>
<noun_phrase> -> <article> <adjective_phrase> <noun>
<adjective_phrase> -> <adjective> 
<adjective_phrase> -> <adjective_phrase> <adjective>

<verb> -> give
<preposition> -> to
<adjective> -> big ugly
<article> -> the
<noun> -> troll ruby

then the parse tree will look like this (the tree structure is
represented by indentation since it's so hard to draw in ASCII):

<command>
	give
	<noun_phrase>
		the
		<adjective_phrase>
			big
		ruby
	to
	<noun_phrase>
		the
		<adjective_phrase>
			ugly
		troll


Now, is your question "how do I construct the tree"? In that case, I
think you should look up "recursive descent parser", for example in
Aho/Sethi/Ullman (see my previous post). As has been pointed out, that
book describes parsers for computer languages. If you want to parse
adventure langauge commands, such a parser will probably be enough.
If you want to parse "real" natural language, you're in much deeper
water.

Or, if you absolutely must have a Web resource, do a web search for 
"recursive descent parser".

On the other hand: if you really do have the tree, and want to know
how to perform the command, then you shouldn't be asking about
parsers, because in that case you already have a parser :-).

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Fri Jul  9 14:11:05 CEST 1999
Article: 61646 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Defining IF (yet again) (was: Are there any IF+RPG?)
Date: 9 Jul 1999 13:25:43 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <7m4m7n$fpm$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <377FF15C.F876E480@radcom.co.il> <7m2kp8$h7t@dfw-ixnews13.ix.netcom.com> <7m2vo4$9v7$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <7m42t0$gcs@dfw-ixnews13.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:44043 rec.arts.int-fiction:61646

In article <7m42t0$gcs@dfw-ixnews13.ix.netcom.com>,
Daniel Giaimo <dgiaimo@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote in message
>news:7m2vo4$9v7$1@bartlet.df.lth.se...
>> Yes, but the quest itself consist only of fighting monsters. And (with
>> the exception of your Quest Nemesis) what monsters appear, how they
>> attack you, all the details, are random.
>
>    There is randomized combat in Zork and Dungeon, yet they are still IF,
>are they not?

Yes and yes, but I think - and I believe many other people think so as
well - that this detracts from the "IF experience". There is IF - of the
graphic variety - where the game changes modes and turns into an arcade
game when you enter combat. These games don't seem very popular among
IF fans. 

There is a place for random events in IF. But randomized combat (for
example) breaks out of the genre. I think this is because normally you
do things in IF with high-level commands, such as "break statue with
sledgehammer". Combat sequences of the type in Zork suddenly require
you to interact at a much lower level. Rogue-type combat is on an even
lower level (semantically speaking) because you have to control a lot
of variables (such as your position relative to the monsters) that an
IF game handles for you.

>> Take away the plot from Nethack and you have a less structured,
>> less interesting game, but still a game with the same basic idea.

>    If you removed the plot from Nethack, then there would be no way to win

Well, obviously you'd have to change the victory condition as well.

>and no point to playing it, 

Wouldn't there? Bashing monsters is fun! :-)

>but I do think I understand what you are saying.
>I suppose you could say that in a true IF game, the degree to which random
>encounters impact the experience of the game is much less than in a game
>such as Nethack.

Yes. I suppose you could say that in IF, you play a part in a story
written by somebody else. In Nethack, you make your own story as you
go along; the plot imposed by the game doesn't define your story, it just
defines the limits for it.


Ah. Insight. I finally found a good parallel:

Playing IF is like playing Hamlet in Shakespeare's play, only you
don't know the story in advance, so you have to experiment a little to
find the right course of action ("right" == "what Shakespeare had in
mind"). If you try to do things differently, the director will sooenr
or later tell you that you're doing things wrong and have to try
again.

Playing Nethack, or a single-person RPG, or "interactive mythos", or
most other kinds of games, is like participating in a role-playing
session based on Hamlet.

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From rit@harlequin.com Fri Jul  9 17:33:51 CEST 1999
Article: 61595 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: rit@harlequin.com (Richard Tucker)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Text parser information
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 11:03:24 +0100
Organization: Harlequin
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In article <7lsj50$nas$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, Magnus Olsson) wrote:
| 
| I can recommend one book: "Compilers - Principles, Techniques and
| Tools" by Aho, Sethi and Ullman. It covers a lot more than parser
| construction, of course, but the parts about how to write a parser
| should get yous started. (As you can tell from the title, the book
| is about writing parsers for computer languages. Natural languages
| are harder, but the general principles are the same.)
|

Hmm, I'm not sure about that. If you want some information on how to
parse natural languages, you might have a look at "Natural language
processing in XXXXX" by Gazdar and Mellish. (Choose X = POP-11, PROLOG
or LISP, depending on which of these languages you would prefer.)

The kinds of parsing techniques used in real NLP systems are different
>from  those used in compilers; one reason is that natural languages are
highly ambiguous (which means you need to cope with lots of candidate
parses or partial parses, and makes the complexity of the problem much
greater); another is that they are not well defined, so you need to
cope robustly with input you don't completely understand (or restrict
the source language, which is what adventure systems do). Gazdar and
Mellish won't tell you anything about statistical parsers, which nowadays
are probably the best bet for parsing real text, but you wouldn't want
that if you're trying to parse adventure game commands anyway. Then
again, the kind of analysis done by, say, the inform libraries is just
a fairly simple template-match, and (depending on your point of view)
not really "parsing" at all.

Richard/


From erkyrath@netcom.com Fri Jul  9 17:34:11 CEST 1999
Article: 61598 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Text parser information
Date: 7 Jul 1999 15:35:27 GMT
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Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> In article <rit-0707991103240001@mcmoby.cam.harlequin.co.uk>,
> Richard Tucker <rit@harlequin.com> wrote:
>>Then
>>again, the kind of analysis done by, say, the inform libraries is just
>>a fairly simple template-match, and (depending on your point of view)
>>not really "parsing" at all.
> 
> Well, it is parsing in the usual sense of extracting the parts of
> speech, or alternatively of breaking down a sentence into the
> terminals of a generative grammar. But the Inform parser "cheats"
> in that it stops as soon as the input sentence matches one grammar
> line, it doesn't go on to see if it matches any other grammar lines
> further down in the grammar.

However, *within* a grammar line, it does get pretty sophisticated.
There's backtracking, at least in the sense of assembling a list of
different possible parses and then choosing among them. See the various
fun associated with "a rock", "the rock", "rocks", "two rocks", and then
object names which contain "two" (and so on.)

It wouldn't be completely awful to extend the library to keep those lists
and rankings among several grammar lines, instead of just within each one.
(It *would* take a lot of memory.) However, the first-matching strategy
turns out to be useful.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Fri Jul  9 17:34:22 CEST 1999
Article: 61645 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Text parser information
Date: 9 Jul 1999 10:44:28 +0200
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In article <7m3r29$qcd$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, Muse <musez@softhome.net> wrote:
>Now does anyone have any idea how a parse-tree could be used in code to parse a
>given sentence?  Or any links to anything relevant?  This is my original
>problem.  I do actually HAVE a parse tree here, y'see.  But no idea how to use
>the thing!  As ever, any input on this would be much appreciated.  Thanks,

I sense a potential confusion here: 

What do you mean by using a parse tree to parse a sentence? The parse
tree is the *output* from the parser (or, rather, one kind of output -
there are parsers, such as Inform's, that don't produce trees).

Take the sentence

"give the big ruby to the ugly troll"

Suppose you have grammar productions that look like this:

<command> -> <verb> <noun_phrase> <preposition> <noun_phrase>
<noun_phrase> -> <article> <adjective_phrase> <noun>
<adjective_phrase> -> <adjective> 
<adjective_phrase> -> <adjective_phrase> <adjective>

<verb> -> give
<preposition> -> to
<adjective> -> big ugly
<article> -> the
<noun> -> troll ruby

then the parse tree will look like this (the tree structure is
represented by indentation since it's so hard to draw in ASCII):

<command>
	give
	<noun_phrase>
		the
		<adjective_phrase>
			big
		ruby
	to
	<noun_phrase>
		the
		<adjective_phrase>
			ugly
		troll


Now, is your question "how do I construct the tree"? In that case, I
think you should look up "recursive descent parser", for example in
Aho/Sethi/Ullman (see my previous post). As has been pointed out, that
book describes parsers for computer languages. If you want to parse
adventure langauge commands, such a parser will probably be enough.
If you want to parse "real" natural language, you're in much deeper
water.

Or, if you absolutely must have a Web resource, do a web search for 
"recursive descent parser".

On the other hand: if you really do have the tree, and want to know
how to perform the command, then you shouldn't be asking about
parsers, because in that case you already have a parser :-).

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Sun Jul 11 11:36:48 CEST 1999
Article: 61708 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Another definition of IF
Date: 11 Jul 1999 10:24:42 +0200
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I've thought a little more about what constitutes IF and what doesn't,
and come up with the following definition:


In order for a computer game to be IF, it should

1) The "Fiction" aspect: There should be a story or plotline in which
the player is the protagonist and/or the viewpoint character
("Photopia" is an example where the player isn't the protagonist).

2) The player should have the possibility to interact with the story
or with the story world. It doesn't have to be possible to change the
outcome of the story, but the player should at least have the illusion
of having a choice. This is the "Interactive" part.


These two points are nothing new, but they are not enough to exclude
games like Rogue or Wumpus. I'd like to add an intentionally rather
vague and subjective criterion:

3) The player's "opponent" in the game, on the meta-story level
(i.e. I'm *not* talking about the PC's antagonist in the story, which
will usually be an NPC, but about the "entity" that the playning human
feels that he/she is pitted against) is the game's author. It's
neither a random number generator (as in most early games) or an AI
(as in combat simulation) or the laws of physics (as in "pure"
simulation), not is it other players (as in a MUD).

Note that AIs and random number generators don't have to have total
control: in Nethack, for example, things aren't completely random; you
can't encounter any old monster anywhere. And the author can still
have a presence and be my adversary, of course: in Nethack, it's as if
the authors are sitting there in the background and throwing monsters
and quests at me, but the authors are, as it were, letting their
semi-autonomous monsters do the fighting for them.

Of course, IF can contain random elements and even AI. The thief in
Zork is controlled by a random number generator. But there is some
kind of (fluid) border where the author relinquishes control over his
minions.

In Zork, I still feel that I'm battling the authors. In Nethack, the
authors are have created the world and set it moving, and then retired
form their creation and let their creatures run it, apart from certain
events (such as the start of the quests) which are triggered by
authorial decree.

Perhaps it's a matter of relative importance: the random behaviour of
the Zork thief is a very minor element of the game. The random
behaviour of Nethack monsters is at the very core of the game idea.




-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From erkyrath@netcom.com Sun Jul 11 17:16:29 CEST 1999
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Defining IF (yet again)
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In rec.arts.int-fiction Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>>    There is randomized combat in Zork and Dungeon, yet they are still IF,
>>are they not?
> 
> Yes and yes, but I think - and I believe many other people think so as
> well - that this detracts from the "IF experience". There is IF - of the
> graphic variety - where the game changes modes and turns into an arcade
> game when you enter combat. These games don't seem very popular among
> IF fans. 
> 
> There is a place for random events in IF. But randomized combat (for
> example) breaks out of the genre. I think this is because normally you
> do things in IF with high-level commands, such as "break statue with
> sledgehammer". Combat sequences of the type in Zork suddenly require
> you to interact at a much lower level.

Much more simulation of a set of rules, much less "about"ness.

This fits with my other post about narrative, in my head, but I'm having
trouble expressing it.

The fundamental question I'm seeing is: Did the author *think* about the
piece of text that just appeared on the screen? In terms of what came
before, what's going to happen next? And do you have to read it in terms
of what comes before and after? 

If not, you have a bunch of independent snippets, and that's Nethack.

(Of course, all IF contains such snippets. "Taken". "Violence is not the
answer." We don't object when these are glue and infrastructure. The
problem is when they become the focus of the game, in the foreground.
That's my objection to the fighting in Beyond Zork.)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From wheeler@jump.net Sun Jul 11 17:18:20 CEST 1999
Article: 61648 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "J. Robinson Wheeler" <wheeler@jump.net>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Plotz (was: Defining IF (yet again))
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Magnus Olsson wrote:

> We must draw the line somewhere. Exactly where is hard to define, 
> but if we start counting rogue as IF then the distinction between
> IF and other computer games becomes meaningless.
> 
> >Really, DOOM is an exaggerated version of Hunt the
> >Wumpus.
> 
> A more meaningful way of thinking of Wumpus is as a precursor of
> IF, in that it was the first game that represented the world as
> a directed graph of "rooms" connected by "passages" (previous games
> would either have no notion of geography at all, or take place
> on a grid-like "board").

Yes, exactly.  My dry, snide statement about DOOM was saying 
the same thing: that Wumpus was a precursor to that type of
game as well.  Rooms.  Passages.  Geography.  Shooting.
The person who traced DOOM to Wolfenstein was missing the
point, not that I was making much of a point. It was meant
to be an aside.

I think there's a point to be made in tracing back to a 
common ancestor. There are genres for which Wumpus was not
a precursor.

I still haven't figured out what my point is.  At the moment,
it seems like we're discussing just to have a discussion. 
I think that's good, because it seems like defining IF is
something we should reasonably be able to do at some point.
At the moment, we just know it when we see it -- or something.


> Rogue is *definitely* an adventure game. It's just not IF.
> 
> > Not much of a plot, but one could imagine that you
> > could stick a plot in there
> 
> Which people have done: Nethack, the direct descendant of Rogue,
> contains a rudimentary plot, quests of different kinds, etc. It's
> still not IF. WHy? Perhaps because the plot is not integral to the
> game, but just an excuse for fighting monsters?
> 
> >or write a back-story to Wumpus.
> 
> Obviously, that wouldn't make Wumpus IF either.

Ohhhh, but it might.  If each little room had a description
instead of just a number...

Also, one could imagine -- aha -- a genuine IF game that
included Wumpus in one location, in the same way that people
stick jumping peg and Fifteen puzzles in there.

Peculiarly, this makes Wumpus allowable *in* IF, but not
IF in and of itself (in the same way that, ahem, jumping
peg and Fifteen puzzles are not IF).  So the ancestor is
swallowed up by the descendant, like some sort of Greek
myth.

Someone poke me with the stick if I come close to making
a point about something.


> > Are we just talking about plotless games?  Is the plot the 
> > fiction we're talking about in IF?  Obviously not.
> 
> Not so obviously, actually. The more I think of it, the more I'm
> convinced that plot is an essential element in IF, just as plot is 
> an essential element in a non-interactive novel or short story.

The reason I stopped and said "Obviously not" was because I
thought of Colossal Cave, Zork, and the Scott Adams adventures.
I'm sorry, plot?  These are seminal works, created before the
notion that good IF needed plots.

It's true enough to say that adding plots to IF allowed the
medium to mature and grow and flourish.  And now, authors are
getting experimental again.



> >Is it just the prose?  Hmmm.
> 
> Not *just* the prose, but I think prose is essential as, in the sense
> that text IF uses text as the primary medium for interaction. 
>
> On further consideration, "plot" isn't really what I'm after. It's more
> what Espen Aarseth called "being caught in a story".

This is a wonderful idea, in that it conjures some sense of what
grabbed many of our young minds when we first encountered good IF.
Or even bad IF. IF had something, that quality that made total
weird absorption, hours flying by (What, dark outside already?),
happen.

Even early, plot-less, story-less IF had this.  We need a word
for it, even if we have to invent one. Such a word would be a
helpful tool in further discussions.



> It's a bit hard to describe what I'm after, but it's the sense that
> the game world is driven by some sort of master plan where you have to
> follow a more or less rigidly defined path in order to set certain
> events in motion and to advance the story. In its cruder forms - what
> we call "linear" games - the player must perform a certain chain of
> well-defined actions for anything to happen at all. The driving force
> is usually a plot, but it needn't be; at least not a plot in the usual
> sense of the word. For example, does "Advent" have a plot in the
> conventional sense? It's debatable, but it certainly has the driving
> force that says, essentially, that "OK, here's this cave for you to
> explore, but you must explore it in the way the author has decided".

Okay, you managed to explain how Advent has no plot and yet has
something Wumpus doesn't. However, don't say that it has a plot
in the conventional sense. It does not. There is no debating
this.



> Also, it's essential that there is an element of simulation - the game
> world contains objects with which you can interact and which respond
> to your actions in certain well-defined ways, but the simulation
> should be subordinate to the driving force.
> 
> So, where does this leave Nethack?

Or DOOM, more to the point?


 
> Is it graphic IF, or some other non-text IF?
> 
> Well, the simulation elements are there. And there is a "plot"
> structure; the game is driven by the need to solve problems, perform
> certain actions and fulfill quests.
> 
> But this isn't the essence of the game. [Combat is.]


Discord wrote:
> 
> The distinction I draw between IF and other types of games is what the
> emphasis is on. If the emphasis is on the story and the puzzles and/or
> combat exist as a way of getting you through the story, I would call it
> IF. If the emphasis is on the combat or puzzles, and the story exists to
> provide context to those things, it's something else.

Again, Colossal Cave, Zork, and the Scott Adams adventures stand
before my eyes, challenging this kind of definition.  I suppose 
the problem is that I'm not drawing a line between modern IF and
genesis IF.

However, genesis IF seems recognizably to be IF, even though it
doesn't work by the definitions we've created after playing a lot
of modern IF.  The emphasis was on puzzles (and even combat).



Magnus Olsson wrote:

> Another take on it:
> 
> You could in principle read a transcript of an IF game as a book. A very
> strange book, and a book in sore need of editing, but still it would
> be recognizable as a story.

Hummmmmmmm.  Okay, I'll walk that far with you.



> You could write a story *about* a Nethack game, but the game itself
> is not a story.

Hmmmmmmmmm.  Okay.  So there is a story-ness to IF that other
things don't have.  This might be what traces its ancestry to
Wumpus.  A transcript of a game of Wumpus would be a silly,
childish story, but it is story-like.  Conflict, mystery,
action -- I killed it!  Yay!  (Or: I'm dead. The end.)

Nethack is obviously not descended from Wumpus.

Relatedly, outputting the video from a game of DOOM would result
in a movie-like thing.  A movie sorely in need of editing, but
it would be recognizable as a Jerry Bruckheimer production.  (Ha.)



> Perhaps you could say that Nethack is more of a simulation given
> structure by a story, while an IF game is a story told with the
> simulation as its medium.

Hm. Hm. Hm. You could say that. It's not incorrect to say 
that, having followed your argument this far. I'm not sure
we've reached the end of the path yet, so I don't think it's
time yet to sum things up like this.


> Take away the plot from Nethack and you have a less structured,
> less interesting game, but still a game with the same basic idea.
> 
> Take away the plot from an IF game and you have nothing. (Note: I'm
> using the non-standard definition of "plot" from my earlier post, so I
> count puzzles as plot).

Let's stop using the word "plot," which has a meaning of its 
own. We should be able to discuss this without having to alter
the meanings of existing words.  I don't like redefining "plot" 
to be plot = puzzles, because then we can't talk about actual
plots when we mean actual plots.

Maybe we should use "Plotz" when we mean a sloppy definition of
"plot" that means "a story-ness to a work of IF, even if it's
just puzzles, that linearly drives the experience forward
even in the absence of a plot."

Colossal Cave, Zork, and the Scott Adams adventures all had Plotz.
But they didn't have plots. So Far had quite a lot of Plotz. 
Spider and Web and Photopia, of course, had a genuine plots.


-- 
J. Robinson Wheeler
wheeler@jump.net        http://www.jump.net/~wheeler/jrw/home.html


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In rec.arts.int-fiction J. Robinson Wheeler <wheeler@jump.net> wrote:
> 
> The reason I stopped and said "Obviously not" was because I
> thought of Colossal Cave, Zork, and the Scott Adams adventures.
> I'm sorry, plot?  These are seminal works, created before the
> notion that good IF needed plots.

Perhaps "narrative" rather than "plot". Wumpus had no sense of narrative,
even though it used English sentences, because there was no attempt at
making the text *interesting*. "I smell a Wumpus" is always "I smell a
Wumpus". And no attempt to talk about the rooms, only to label them. 

(Also: Zork *did* have a plot. A trivial, trite plot is still a plot. But
then I can't differentiate that very well from Wumpus or Nethack. So I
guess I don't see your Plotz category. I consider Colossal Cave to be a
innovation because of presentation, not plot. The presence of a
narrative, as opposed to a sequence of events that you could invent
narrative about.)

[Much snipped.] 

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From tina@ripco.com Sun Jul 11 17:21:18 CEST 1999
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.games.int-fiction:44075 rec.arts.int-fiction:61681

In article <3785ED81.68747A2E@jump.net>,
J. Robinson Wheeler <wheeler@jump.net> wrote:
>Discord wrote:
>> 
>> The distinction I draw between IF and other types of games is what the
>> emphasis is on. If the emphasis is on the story and the puzzles and/or
>> combat exist as a way of getting you through the story, I would call it
>> IF. If the emphasis is on the combat or puzzles, and the story exists to
>> provide context to those things, it's something else.
>
>Again, Colossal Cave, Zork, and the Scott Adams adventures stand
>before my eyes, challenging this kind of definition.  I suppose 
>the problem is that I'm not drawing a line between modern IF and
>genesis IF.

Maybe you and I just have different definitions of what constitutes
'emphasis on telling a story'. The distinction I'm drawing isn't 'Zork'
(really bad story which almost /is/ the puzzles, but a story nonetheless)
versus, say, Photopia (very cool story with minimal interaction). The
distinction I'm drawing is between 'story as backdrop' (Mortal Kombat --
you can pay attention to the story but it means absolutely nothing to the
game; the point of the game is that you're beating the hell out of your
opponents) and 'story you're walking through' (regardless of the fact
that the author keeps putting these locked doors, mazes, and so forth in
your way).

It's possible that some people will disagree with me and say that a lot
of IF is merely a story holding puzzles together. Sometimes it is, but I
don't think it is intended that way. It's possible Zork /was/ intended
that way, but then, most people (that I know) don't consider it very 
/good/ IF. It's just that it has high name recognition, so it's used a
lot as an example.

Things I would consider IF:

Hitchhiker's Guide, Leather Goddesses of Phobos, Wishbringer, Lurking
Horror, etc. from Infocom, Jigsaw, Anchorhead, etc. modern Inform games,
Myst, Shivers, Gabriel Knight. (I am already putting on my
flame-resistant suit, having mentioned graphical games and IF in the same
breath....) Someone asked about Ultima 6; I haven't played it, but I
would consider putting Ultima /5/ in this category... have to play it
again before I decided, I think.

Things I would not consider IF:

Doom, Quake, Mortal Kombat, Alpha Centauri, Theme Hospital, Descent.

Things I would not call IF that have elements of IF -- most of which /I/
would categorize as 'RPG or some close facscimile':

Nethack (yes, really), ADOM, and other Rogue-like games; the SSI D&D
adventures, the first 4 Ultimas, Might and Magic, Wizardry.

Note that I consider RPG and IF to be closely related; not twins, but
certainly siblings. Certain platform adventure games are cousins. Games
that use a story to make the combat more interesting are like that
great-Uncle everyone likes bringing up as a bad example without telling
you exactly why. Strategy games are that woman from across the ocean who
married into your family.

Whether or not you agree with me is, of course, up to you. 
--
tina@ripco.com - youknow@foad.org - help, I'm stuck in a bottle


From erkyrath@netcom.com Sun Jul 11 17:22:56 CEST 1999
Article: 61697 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Defining IF (yet again)
Date: 11 Jul 1999 01:36:32 GMT
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Keith Snyder <flowofsoul@aol.common> wrote:
> My exposure to IF is very limited (I'm working on remedying that), but compared
> to the plots of good novels -- or even short stories -- the few IF plots I've
> seen have been extremely crude.  My few IF experiences have suggested to me
> that IF is, if I may lapse into novelist-speak, plot-driven, rather than
> character-driven.  That is, there are THINGS that happen, and that's the point
> of it.  There's a puzzle that needs to be solved, or an obstacle that needs to
> be overcome, and the satisfaction comes from solving the puzzle, overcoming the
> obstacle, outwitting the game designer.

This is an accurate observation, I think. And it's because we (authors)
try to focus as much of the game as possible on what the player is
*doing*. (In the name of increasing interactivity and complicity, of
course. No player wants to sit around reading and hitting the space bar
every so often -- we have books for that.)

And, equally of course, "what the player is doing" is, well, things.

We've had forty-zillion discussions on how to do characterization in IF. I
don't think we've come up with any really general answer. Let me try to
break out some of the attempts. 

Pure surrealism. (_So Far_, _Losing Your Grip_). The whole universe is
expressing character -- a honkin' big reified subconscious -- and the
player wanders around in it. This gimmick has worked well (especially when
I did it :-) but if everyone used it, it'd get worn out pretty fast.

Make the story about an NPC (non-player character). The player is
secondary. (_Photopia_, and in a sense _Spider and Web_.) Then you can use
all the usual static-fiction techniques to portray the NPC.

Put the player in situations where his best choice *does* express a
particular character. By solving the puzzles the player is acting from the
character's definition, and -- by the same token -- by thinking in harmony
with the character, the player is more able to solve the puzzles. (I'm
using the word "puzzles" very generally here; that's another forty-zillion
arguments... heh.) This is what I tried to do in _A Change in the
Weather_, although it was only half-successful, even aside from the fact
that most people said the puzzle was too hard.

> If you haven't already, read IF ON A WINTER'S NIGHT A TRAVELER by Italo
> Calvino.  Is it a novel?  Is it a literary experiment?  Is it any less
> "interactive" than interactive fiction?

It's not a novel, it is a literary experiment, and it is less interactive
than interactive fiction -- in fact, non-interactive. 

Well, IMO, anyway. :)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Sun Jul 11 17:23:05 CEST 1999
Article: 61706 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Defining IF (yet again) (was: Are there any IF+RPG?)
Date: 11 Jul 1999 09:26:05 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology
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In article <19990710151422.28018.00001844@ng-da1.aol.com>,
Keith Snyder <flowofsoul@aol.common> wrote:
>
>> We must draw the line somewhere. 
>
>Speaking as an rank newcomer to IF, but a published novelist and composer...
>
>My opinion, for what it's worth, is that "drawing the line" is the
>last thing you should want to do.  The most interesting things happen
>when you're not sure where the lines are.  Once everything's all
>codified nicely, rules develop, and everybody starts either following
>them or arguing with them.  Much better to be a little uncertain.

OK. I agree with you, of course, but that's not really what I meant.

Let me rephrase: We can not - and should not - draw a sharp line
dividing IF from non-IF. But we must be able to say "this is not IF".
Categories which are so vague as to become all-encompassing are meaningless.
I feel that if we start classifying games like Rogue, Doom and (why not)
Mario Brothers and Tomb Raider as IF, then we've lost something.

That's not to say that those games don't have IF *aspects*, and of
course it doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss them here, as long
as the discussion has some kind of "IF relevance". Who gets to decide
that? I hear you say. Well, so far we've managed to keep some kind
fo vague consensus of what is IF. And the groups tolerate quite a lot
of OT threads, of course.

>> OK, there are experimental novels that try 
>> to be plotless, but do they succeed?
>
>It depends on what you mean by "plot."  Some do, some don't.

This reminds me of an interesting discussion on rec.arts.sf.composition:
Does a story have to have a protagonist (or protagonists)? You can
certainly tell about, say, the Napoleon wars without having any
protagonist, but are you then telling a story or just recounting
history (possible invented history)?


> In the more complex and satisfying conventional fiction, the things
>that happen happen ONLY because of WHO the characters are.  Different
>things will happen to different characters.  Obstacles are carefully
>chosen so that they match the characters' shortcomings.  Skillful
>handling of this is part of what makes great printed fiction.
>
>I have not seen this to any degree in the few IF experiences I have
>had.  Yes, in gaming, an orc (for instance) is stronger than a
>halfling, and thus would be able to break down an oak door that the
>halfling would be stopped by, but I have seen nothing that springs
>from the personalities and natures of the characters as individuals,
>rather than as classes.

I think we have not yet found a satisfactory paradigm for making
character-driven IF. There are attempts at making it, but the problem
is how to let the player retain freedom at the same time as giving
him or her a personality. "Interstate 0" is an interesting experiment,
which goes part of the way in that it allows the player to make,
what shall I call it, "personality choices" - the choices are not
whether to use a hammer or a wrench to break a glass case, but
(crudely put) whether to persuade a guy to do something by trying
to get his sympathy or by seducing him. Where I think "I-0" fails
is in that such choices don't influence the gmae more than locally -
you can play widely different personalities in different encounters.

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Mon Jul 12 09:21:41 CEST 1999
Article: 61715 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Plotz (was: Defining IF (yet again))
Date: 11 Jul 1999 22:24:51 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology
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It just struck me that what I've been trying to say with all
this talk about "driving forces", "being stuck in somebody else's
story" and "plots" that aren't what's ordinarily called plots (OK,
let's call them plotz instead) is this:

What distinguishes a piece of IF from other games with narratives,
such as Nethack, RPG's, Tie Fighter or interactive mythos, is that
whereas all these games have narrative, in IF the narrative is
essentially fixed by the author, but in the other games only the
outline of the narrative is fixed, and you create the detailed
narrative as you play.

Take Nethack as an example. When you start a new game, the authors
have decreed that you must go down into the dungeon, clear out the dwarvish
mines, help your old mentor by going on a quest and defeating your
quest nemesis, hunt down the Wizard of Yendor, steal his amulet,
take it to the astral plane and sacrifice it.

This, however, is not narrative; it's a plot, and it's an outline of
a narrative. But the actual narrative is created when you play:
"Grognr the barbarian encountered his first kobold on level 2. He smote
it a mighty blow with his two-handed sword, but missed..."

In contrast, the essence of an IF game is to me that I'm playing
out a more or less pre-defined part in an existing narrative (OK,
I have some freedom in details, and in the order I choose to do
things, and there may even be plot branchings). 




-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Jul 22 15:21:06 CEST 1999
Article: 62078 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!not-for-mail
From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: [Glulx] Text compression
Date: 20 Jul 1999 18:46:07 GMT
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I've devoted a bit of spare time to testing different text compression
algorithms. Not much, but here's what I've got. The values are compression
ratios; 1.0000 means no compression, 0.0001 means it compressed incredibly
small.

No encoding:             1.0000
Word Huffman:            0.7861
Z-machine (v5) encoding: 0.7335
Character Huffman:       0.5894

The test data was the game text of Gareth Rees's Christminster, which you
can download from ftp.gmd.de. (You'll have to get Inform 5.5 and the
5/whatever libraries, then compile with the Inform -r switch to get the
game text out.)

My test source code is on the web page:

http://www.eblong.com/zarf/glulx/

I haven't tried any other schemes, although I have several suggestions
archived in email. I'll try to get to them. 

If you want to run your own experiments, download my test code and write
your own compression and decompression functions. There is documentation
in there on exactly how to do this. I've already written all the support
code -- reading in text, breaking it into words if appropriate, measuring
the compression ratio. All you have to do is compress and decompress. And
beat that 59% mark. :)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Jul 22 15:27:39 CEST 1999
Article: 62104 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Amdahl's Law (Re: [Glulx] Text compression)
Date: 21 Jul 1999 14:50:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In article <932539371.600426590@news.unimelb.edu.au> Hugh Allen wrote:
> Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:
>>I've devoted a bit of spare time to testing different text compression
>>algorithms.
> 
> Amdahl's Law was conceived with parallel processing in mind, but it applies
> equally well to compression of multi-part files.
> 
> If you have a story file which is (say) 40% code and 60% text and you
> manage by heroic effort to compress the text to 30% of its size, the file is
> only compressed to (0.4 + 0.6*0.3) = 58%.

Yes, yes. This is why I've left it as an afterthought. :)

I'm willing to do at least Huffman encoding; it's easy, it's pretty good,
and it has the side benefit of obscuring cleartext in the game file. Even
if it only saves 15% or 20% total space in the final product, that's worth
the (small) effort.
 
> zarf, do you have any statistics about what percentage of a typical story is
> code? I know it will be more in glulx than in z-code.

I posted some statistics a few months ago, but I've made a couple of
improvements since then. Hang on...

For Advent (no debugging or strict mode):

        +---------------------+   00003c
        |        code         |
        +---------------------+   0113b3
        |       strings       |
        +=====================+   023000
....  global variables and arrays
        +---------------------+   02444d
....  objects and property tables
        +=====================+   02bddf
....  grammar and dictionary tables
        +---------------------+   02f800

So, almost equal amounts of code and text.
 
> If we want to bother with compression we should do it to both text and code,
> or we are wasting our effort.

Failing to do a task is never a waste of effort. It may be a waste of time
and space, but not effort. :-)

> I can imagine that VM intructions are quite compressible, but are their
> parameters?

I've already done a fair amount of work in making sure that both the
instructions and parameters are small. You can generally drop leading
zeroes in a two- or four-byte field, for example. (The compiler I've got
doesn't take full advantage of this, but it's not totally lame about it
either.)

Inform is rather heavily built around the idea that There Are Only Values,
and no difference between pointers and integers. I decided early on to
keep this in Glulx Inform. It keeps the library code nearly unchanged, and
in the end, ease of transition (from Z-machine to Glulx) is more important
than compression.

Similarly, I decided that every object reference is an address, because
it's easy and Z-machine Inform *partially* works that way. It means that
routines and strings are referred to by four-byte fields, which -- as you
note -- is nonoptimal, but it makes them easy to work with.

Have you read the spec?

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From glasser@iname.com Sat Jul 24 13:50:21 CEST 1999
Article: 62124 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: glasser@iname.com (David Glasser)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] phtalkoo.h, a menu-based conversation system for Inform
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:05:16 -0400
Organization: This used to be "disorganized", but that's not very original.
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:62124

I really like the interface of the menu system in Adam Cadre's PHOTOPIA,
and he had distributed the code for it.  However, the code put all the
responses (for example) for the whole game in one huge function; while
this probably worked well for Photopia, where most characters only
appeared in one short scene and there was usually just one or two
characters around, it was giving me some problems.

So I pulled it apart, made it object-oriented, added some other
functions, made it into a library, and added an example.

phtalkoo.h can be found at
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/incoming/if-archive/phtalkoo.h, and will move to an
/if-archive/infocom/compilers/inform6/library/contributions near you
soon.

-- 
David Glasser: glasser@iname.com       | http://www.uscom.com/~glasser/
DGlasser@ifMUD:orange.res.cmu.edu 4001 | raif FAQ http://come.to/raiffaq
   tr/y/k;


From c.nebel@apple.com Thu Aug 12 10:22:29 CEST 1999
Article: 62827 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!c.nebel
From: c.nebel@apple.com (Christopher Nebel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Hypertext in interactive fiction
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:55:42 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Lines: 45
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In article <7nnkgn$d0t$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
Sabahattin@Gucukoglu.freeserve.co.uk wrote:

>My question: how is Hypertext related to interactive fiction?  Where does it
>come in, and why has TADS got anything to do with it?

The second part is much easier, so let's hit that first: TADS doesn't have
anything to do with hypertext.  (At least, nothing more than any other IF
system does.)  In retrospect, naming HTML-TADS that was a really bad idea,
because newcomers keep getting confused and thinking that it's somehow
related to hypertext or the Web.  It's not; it just uses HTML as a markup
language for doing text styling.

The one vaguely hypertext-y bit about it is that you can define a "hot"
bit of text that will issue a particular command if you click on it.  For
example, your game might print "You see a _cave_ here."  If you click on
"cave", it acts as if you typed "enter the cave."  This is not what I'd
consider hypertext, but it does have a similar interface.


The bigger question is: how are hypertext and i-f related?  There are
various works of hypertext fiction, some of them not even computer-based
-- for instance, there's "Encyclopedia" [1] and the old
Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books.  While these are certainly fiction, and
are to some degree interactive, whether or not they qualify as
"interactive fiction" is debatable, and is in fact debated quite often. 
The arguments generally hinge on the definition of i-f, and there isn't
nearly as much agreement on that as you might think.  (If you missed it,
check the news archives for the recent "Definition of I-F" thread.)

While hypertext fiction and i-f are often lumped together under the common
umbrella of "interactive storytelling" or "alternative narrative forms,"
making claims like "hypertext _is_ interactive fiction" or "interactive
fiction _is_ hypertext" tends to make people's brains fizz.  The upshot of
all this is that yes, they're related, but there's no general agreement on
how, exactly.


--Christopher Nebel


[1] A very curious book -- it's written as a set of disjointed
encyclopedia entries that describe individual items, places, and people. 
By chasing all the cross-references around, you can build up a complete
story.


From wild_dj@mit.edu Thu Aug 12 22:18:52 CEST 1999
Article: 62853 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: wild_dj@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Robot Odyssey! [Was Re: Parsers]
Date: 12 Aug 1999 13:38:21 GMT
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:62853

In article <FGCn4L.Fwo@world.std.com>,
Mark J Musante <olorin@world.std.com> wrote:
>You control robots in a maze.  You can program them by wiring gates
>together (and, or, etc).  Each robot, which are square, has four sensors
>to tell whether it's bumped into a wall, and four directional jets to
>move it around.  Also and antenna and a transmitter to communicate with
>other robots (or a remote control).

You fail to mention how INSANELY DIFFICULT it is. The first level is easy. The
second level has maybe one or two slightly challenging puzzles. The third level
has a couple of moderately challenging puzzles and one seriously obnoxious
cooperation puzzle. The fourth level has four puzzles, at least two of which
are quite difficult (it's possible to beat the High Voltage puzzle by dumb
luck and/or patience). As for the fifth level.... well, what I saw of it was
pretty damn wierd and quite unlike the other four. But I never made it very far
(hell, I never even beat the 4th level, just went on without completing
everything. Damn that Force Field puzzle!).

>It was an interesting little game.  I've not seen its like again.

Nor I. I suggested, non-facetiously, to my 9th grade computer science teacher
(teaching us Boolean algebra and circuitry), that we should just get a bunch of
Apple emulators and work in Robot Odyssey.

Incidentally, the GUI, which everyone is (ostensibly) discussing, is not
original to Robot Odyssey. The Learning Company's previous circuitry game,
Rocky's Boots, featured a similar working environment, but with fewer gates and
without the solderpen.

+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into         |
| theorems.              -Paul Erdos                          |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|                       Jake Wildstrom                        |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+


From obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU Wed Aug 18 10:21:12 CEST 1999
Article: 63038 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Paul O'Brian <obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Contest Issues - Attn: Keyboard IF Author
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:13:35 -0600
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On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Don Rae wrote:

> Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea.  If the people here are even
> somewhat serious about reviving IF as a product (commerical sales, maybe in
> some kind of on-line offering, CD distribution, or as some kind of
> magazine-companion distribution/sales offering), larger works will
> eventually have to be forthcoming (and regular) from various authors.

Indeed they are, and commercially too (insert Mike Berlyn/Cascade
Mountain Publishing exhortation here). In fact, I would argue that if
people here are serious about reviving IF as a product, they ought to buy
the products currently available and make everybody they know buy them
too, so it will become clear that IF can be a *successful* product, if
only to a particular marketing niche. 

> Myself, I would seriously consider extending my current internet/systems
> consulting business to do commercial IF distribution, if more of larger
> offerings were actually available and visible to the public.  

What are you thinking of paying your authors? (If money isn't an
incentive, I don't know what is.) If you can generate enough business to
be a successful commercial distributor and sufficiently compensate your
authors for their work, lack of product will not be a problem for you for
very long. 

> If Infocom can still churn out an occasional Zork yarn, and sell plenty of
> copies of it, 

Actually, Infocom hasn't turned out a new commercial text adventure for
many years. (ZTUU and the contest winners on Masterpieces don't count as
Infocom-created commercial text adventures, nor do Zork: Nemesis and Zork:
Grand Inquisitor.)

> We have a KEYBOARD magazine editor who writes IF here, I'm sorry in advance
> for not specifically remembering who you are.  I'd like to have your opinion
> in this discussion.....

If it's Jim Aikin you're thinking of, he's announced that he's in the
beta-testing stage for yet another large adventure. 2000 looks to be a bit
of a banner year for large text games, actually. 

-- 
Paul O'Brian  obrian@colorado.edu  http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
"Sometimes even music cannot substitute for tears."
                                               -- Paul Simon



From obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU Wed Aug 18 10:23:05 CEST 1999
Article: 63022 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Paul O'Brian <obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Contest Issues
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:26:46 -0600
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On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Don Rae wrote:

> Paul O'Brian wrote: 
> >I use walkthroughs or hints whenever
> >I determine that they will make the playing experience more rewarding.
> >Usually this happens when I decide that the puzzles or implementation are
> >so poor that it's not worth my time to try to figure them out.
> 
> I guess this speaks for itself, apparently - as I was attempting to suggest.
> The body of the work is judged accordingly, as it should be.

Huh? I don't understand what your statements mean. I don't downgrade a
game because it includes a walkthrough, if that's what you're suggesting.
I use a walkthrough after I've evaluated enough of the game to know that
I'm not interested in battering my head against the author's poor puzzle
design/inability to write/lack of programming skill.

> >[I sometimes use walkthroughs to see more of good games.]

> You do have a very valid point here.  But if we are solely speaking about
> this in terms of "the IF contest" itself - would this ultimately have
> affected your choice, as a judge, if you didn't have a solution handy and
> you were intrigued enough to keep pressing onward?  Doesn't this, by itself,
> say something about the quality of the work?

Again, I'm not clear on what you're talking about. You use the word
"this" three times, and for none of them is it clear what the "this"
refers to. The inclusion of a walkthrough? My approach to difficult games?
The fact that a game was entered in the contest? And by "my choice as a
judge" do you mean the score I give the game or my decision to keep
playing it up to the 2-hour limit?

> But right now, I would suggest that the format of the contest lends itself
> to shorter entries only.  

Bingo. That's what it's supposed to do. Zarf's comment about this point 
was right on the money. 

[snipped some good points about how long games affect players differently
than short games]

> Please be aware that I'm not criticizing anyone, or putting these kinds of
> works down....not at all....I like them very much on their own merit.
> They're fun and enjoyable too.  But I would just like to see a lot more of
> the character-driven work as well, where the player's invested time is a
> real factor in the value of the gameplay experience, encouraging better,
> more challenging work from everyone who is involved in the IF contest, or
> who is writing IF in general.  

The IF contest != IF in general. (Or, if you're an Inform programmer, The
IF contest ~= IF in general.)

I'm actually working on a sizable game right now that fits what you're
looking for. I won't enter it in the competition, because I want people to
spend more than two hours with it. This year I've betatested two very
large games, neither of which are suitable for the competition and both of
which very much reward the player for investing a great deal of time in
them.

You see, such games *are* being written. To find them, look beyond the
scope of the contest.

-- 
Paul O'Brian  obrian@colorado.edu  http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
"Sometimes even music cannot substitute for tears."
                                               -- Paul Simon



From cagerlac@merle.acns.nwu.edu Wed Aug 18 10:34:42 CEST 1999
Article: 63024 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Charles Gerlach <cagerlac@merle.acns.nwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Contest Issues
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:13:58 -0500
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US
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Don Rae wrote:
> 
> Some more comments...
> 
> >Just so we can keep this debate in perspective, let's remember that no
> >entrant is required to provide a walkthrough to judges. My own experience
> >judging games in the contest is that I use walkthroughs or hints whenever
> >I determine that they will make the playing experience more rewarding.
> >Usually this happens when I decide that the puzzles or implementation are
> >so poor that it's not worth my time to try to figure them out.
> 
> I guess this speaks for itself, apparently - as I was attempting to suggest.
> The body of the work is judged accordingly, as it should be.

But to construct a counter-example: suppose someone has written 
a moving, lyrical, kick-butt game, that has one puzzle that 
must be solved up front to get into the heart of it. The puzzle 
is necessary to the plotline, as it ties in with the ending and 
brings the whole piece together. There are two subtle hints in 
the text as to how to go about solving that first puzzle. 
Adventurer A solves the first puzzle in short order and goes on 
to experience the rest of the marvelous wonders. Adventurer B 
doesn't get the clues (perhaps they are culturally specific) 
and spends two hours beating his head against the wall, pleading 
for a hint, which the author has not provided. 

Can Adventurer B possibly give a reasonable value judgement to the
*entire* game? The rest of the game is perfect by everyone's 
standards, but there is one little glitch at the beginning. You 
apparently want Adventurer B to judge the game not on what is in 
it, but on what B is capable of getting to within two hours. 
Unfortunately for you, B might be an idiot. 

Personally, I have a very low tolerance for being stuck. (I have
great empathy with adventurer B.) If walk-throughs and hints were 
not included with any game, then I would rate a game I could solve 
higher than a game I could not, if they appeared to be comparably 
well written. If most other people feel this way, then puzzle-less 
or puzzle-easy games will tend to win. 

[snip]
 
> What I think I might be suggesting is that the "two hour limit for judging"
> may not be the only practical way to conduct the means of adjudication for
> the contest.  An enjoyable, thoughtful piece may deserve 5 or more hours of
> study (which a judge is likely to do anyway), vs a boring, unengaging piece
> that is clearly not in a comparable category.  The better works will end up
> taking up more time than the others, giving the judge a little bit more to
> compare the quality of their experiences with the offered work.

What this sounds like to me is that you want more full- or 
medium-sized works, and not the smaller works that the contest 
is designed to foster. You are welcome to your opinion, and you 
are also welcome to start your own contest, or come up with some 
other way to spark the development of medium-sized games. I *like* 
the smaller games, and I tend to look down on any game that is 
obviously too large to be played in two hours, even if it is 
excellent in most respects. To me it doesn't meet the spirit of
the contest.

[snip]

-- 
Charles Gerlach doesn't speak for Northwestern. Surprise, surprise.


From dgatewood@bigfoot.com Wed Aug 18 10:51:33 CEST 1999
Article: 63034 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Dave G <dgatewood@bigfoot.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Contest Issues - The Future
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:12:02 -0400
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Don Rae wrote:
> 
> I don't understand why I've been getting so many negative responses against
> my want for larger IF stories being recognized in the IF contest...

The existing annual IF contest is designed for short works of
interactive fiction.  A contest for long works of interactive fiction
may also be a good thing.  But these need to be separate contests, just
as short stories and novels are eligible for different award
recognition.  Short and long works of IF are qualitatively different,
and it makes no sense to judge one against the other.

Of course, you could lobby for short and long *divisions* within the IF
contest, and that would be fine.  (However, for a number of logistics
reasons, not the least of which is limited judging time, I think
separate contests at separate times is the more practical approach.)

> So if you, the IF fan and/or creator, personally want to see more and more
> larger, involved IF offerings, then it logically follows that the remainder
> of the community must provide the prolific and creative IF people with more
> incentives for creating more larger works!

Fair enough.  You now need to support your assertion that a contest is
the best way to create these incentives.  My primary two objections have
to do with logistics and incentives.

-- You want games that take a long time to play, so the player is truly
"involved" in the story.  And you want players to play one game at a
time, so they fully appreciate it.  With several games, this could take
months, potentially the whole year.  Given this, a yearly awards
ceremony such as the XYZZYs seems the more practical approach to
judging: same recognition, same judging period, staggered game release.

-- The "incentives" that the current IF contest provides do not
necessarily translate to larger works.  Without the contest, very short
games have little audience, little feedback; authors may feel they don't
have enough to justify a release.  The contest provides the forum to
overcome these obstacles.  But longer games always receive an audience
and feedback, so the contest provides nothing incremental.  (One could
claim that the spirit of competition, the desire to win, is what's
driving the entrants; that may be true, but I doubt it.)

> Myself, I'm sure getting tired of reading all the posts about the "good ol'
> Infocom days", bemoaning the glory days of IF are past and gone.

I read all the messages on rgif and raif, and I haven't seen any posts
like this.

>  I'm
> looking forward to the future, where a renaissance of this kind of
> entertainment is on the horizon, 

Ditto.  I don't think anyone has argued that with you.  They've merely
said it doesn't make sense to put long and short works in the same
contest.


From obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU Wed Aug 18 11:01:59 CEST 1999
Article: 63040 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Paul O'Brian <obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Contest Issues
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:02:47 -0600
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On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Don Rae wrote:

> I believe I meant to say:  "Why bother with the walkthrough at all, if it's
> the judge's foregone conclusion that the work is a waste of their time?"  If
> the judge didn't enjoy it, a walkthrough isn't going to help the overall
> assessment of it, for sure.

Aha. Thank you for clarifying. While your point is sound, it ignores some
subtleties. Sometimes games are uneven, and have stronger and weaker
sections. Sometimes those stronger sections are towards the end. Sometimes
seeing the ending of a story unifies it in a way that makes the whole
thing more appreciable. I have been influenced (both positively and
negatively) by sections of contest games which I wouldn't have gotten to
without a walkthrough. 

> If you didn't have a walkthrough, and found yourself up against a wall in a
> difficult, but so-far-enjoyable piece - I was suggesting that it
> [the lack of a walkthrough] probably wouldn't influence your rating of
> the work, because you were enjoying it [the game] right up until that
> point.

See above. Sometimes the *weaker* sections are towards the end. The more
of a work I can see, the more detailed of a review and accurate of a 
rating I can give it. 

> >You see, [larger] games *are* being written.

> But not very often, you must agree with that.  

Indeed I do agree with that. At least, not very often in comparison to how
often shorter games are written. But where I think we disagree is on the
*reason* why fewer long games are being written. You seem to think that
the reason is that there is a lack of incentive. If I'm understanding you
right, you're suggesting that the prizes and feedback provided by the
contest are the reason why people enter it, and consequently why there are
more short games than long games. I think that the reason for the lack of
longer games is because longer games, with larger scope, take much more
time and effort. A couple of corollaries apply here:

1) Some people don't have that kind of time and energy to devote to what
is essentially a hobby, preferring instead to devote themselves to
projects of more manageable size.

2) Because a longer game takes more of an author's time, that author is
therefore able to produce fewer games, which helps to account for the
infrequency of larger games. We're not so large a community that we can
mask this infrequency with volume from lots of different authors. 

3) People are writing IF as a labor of love, not to win prizes, so
they'll do it the way they want. As I said to the last person who thought
that the prizes are what motivate people to enter the contest, even the
top prize from last year looks pretty poor when viewed as an hourly wage
(unless Adam spent less than 15 hours on Photopia.)

> Why not target the larger game as a focus point for experienced authors,
> make it a special part of the yearly contest?

Because even judging 25-35 short games at two hours apiece in the space of
six weeks is work enough, thanks very much. 

I think the contest has been a great success in its primary goal, which is
to encourage the creation of new pieces of short, high-quality IF. In
fact, in some ways it's a victim of its own success in that sometimes it
is mistaken for the source of and reason behind all activity in the IF
community. It isn't. 

-- 
Paul O'Brian  obrian@colorado.edu  http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
"Sometimes even music cannot substitute for tears."
                                               -- Paul Simon





From sgranade@lepton.phy.duke.edu Wed Aug 18 15:56:42 CEST 1999
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From: Stephen Granade <sgranade@lepton.phy.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Writing long games (was: IF Contest Issues)
Date: 18 Aug 1999 09:41:06 -0400
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"Don Rae" <gameman69@hotmail.com> writes:

> >This is more or less intended to give shorter works a place to thrive. A
> >longer game is more impressive simply because the player spends more time
> >in it. We were concerned: would anyone even bother writing an experiment,
> >a joke game, or a one-scene mood fragment, if it was going to be competing
> >with _Curses_ or _Theatre_?
> 
> Well, you have a point there.  But wouldn't it be fair to say that most of
> the new offerings, "contest or not" lately, are mostly shorter
> "experiments"?

Lucian Smith took a look at this issue roughly a year ago, and found
very little change in the number of large games being produced over
the years of the competition. You can read his message at
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=359933303&fmt=text.

> There isn't that much recognition or incentive available for
> the larger, grand scale offering.  With little incentive offered, thus very
> little results.  How many of the excellent "short work" authors have gone on
> to make larger offerings?  Not too many, unfortunately.
[snip]
> And why is that?  Currently there's very little incentive to do it at all,
> other than the author's sense of self-satisfaction.
[snip]
> Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea.  If the people here are even
> somewhat serious about reviving IF as a product (commerical sales, maybe in
> some kind of on-line offering, CD distribution, or as some kind of
> magazine-companion distribution/sales offering), larger works will
> eventually have to be forthcoming (and regular) from various authors.

Time for me to step in. Y'see, I've written a very large game (_Losing
Your Grip_, for those of you playing along at home) and I've taken
shareware registrations for that game.

_Losing Your Grip_ took a while to write. I came up with the idea back
in 1994 and talked to Kevin Wilson about having his nascent company
Vertigo Software publish it. I did some initial design work, then let
it languish in the face of graduate school.

I came back to it eventually. I spent some four months completely
redesigning it, then about a year coding it. Due to its size it took
another six months to beta-test, and of my elite squad of
beta-testers, only a few made it all the way through to the end before
I decided to release it.

When I released it in January of 1998, it received a fair bit of
attention. There was a brief thread on r.g.i-f about its themes and
What It All Meant. Many people asked for hints. I got some 25
registrations in those early months.

I've been pleased with the reaction _Grip_ got. I've had a number of
interesting e-mail conversations with players who were working through
it. I got enough money through registrations to pay for the feelies I
had printed up and still have enough left over to go out to dinner
several times.

Despite this, I will never ever write another long game. Long games
are *hard* to write. Really, really hard. For nearly twelve months of
my life I spent an hour or two a day coding it. And now, as we near
the two-year anniversary of my releasing it, it's seldom mentioned any
more. On the one hand, this is how it should be. Newer games come
along and garner attention. Short, experimental games are often more
memorable than longer, more traditional games. On the other hand, it's
disappointing. You want everyone to pay as much attention to your game
as you did while making it, and at that you're bound to be
disappointed.

You want to encourage more long games? Talk about them when they're
released. Start discussions on the newsgroup. Write reviews. To date
_Grip_ has been reviewed once. _Arrival_, my competition entry from
last year, has some 20 reviews. I was lucky: _Grip_ garnered quite a
bit of newsgroup discussion. I haven't seen all that much discussion
of recent games like _Jewel of Darkness_.

Stephen

-- 
  Stephen Granade                | Interested in adventure games?
  sgranade@phy.duke.edu          | Visit About.com's IF Page
  Duke University, Physics Dept  |   http://interactfiction.about.com


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From: Second April <dns361@merle.acns.nwu.edu>
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Subject: Re: [IF Book Club] Call for suggestions
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> > -That it be a longer game--longer than a competition game, at least.
> > -That it has been out for at least a year.
> > -That there hasn't been a lot of discussion/reviews of it already.

Well, hmmm. A lot of the classics of a few years ago--Curses, Jigsaw,
Christminster, Lost New York, etc.--were heavily discussed at the time.
Much of the current r*if crowd wasn't around then, however, and I think
we'd be missing a lot if these weren't eligible for discussion.

> > Other than that, I think it's pretty open.  You can go back as far or as
> > near as you like; commercial or non, as long as a significant number of
> > people could get access to it.

Without, repeat without, pirating.

Mag Scrolls and Topologika games (games that aren't legally available for
download, and aren't easily bought anymore) are no doubt fantastic in
every respect. But you're limiting discussion unfairly if you devote the
group's attention to games that a good part of the group will, on
principle, refuse to download.

If I'm wrong and Mag Scrolls and Topologika _are_ easily bought, great.
But my impression is that they're not.

As Infocom Masterpieces is still available from various net sources, I'd
put that in a different light.

  My own list would include:
> >
> > -Any of the Adventions games

Definitely. Horror of Rylvania in particular.

> > -Some of the more obscure Infocom games, like Moonmist or Starcross.

Mmmm--well, Starcross. Moonmist wasn't exactly Infocom's finest hour, and
with lots of stuff to choose from, I'm not sure we should spend much time
discussing a game that wasn't even meant for adults in the first place.
(Ditto Seastalker.)

> > -Almost any game from Level 9, Topologika, etc--I don't even know enough
> > about these to suggest one.

Level 9 is available for free download, and my impression is that it's
legal, so yes. Others, see above.

> > -The Windhall Chronicles

Oh dear. I can hear C.E. already, cursing our names for not giving him his
due when the game was first released.

> > -The Ice Princess

Isn't this crippleware? Not that that disqualifies it, but is the author
supporting it anymore?

> I would vote for something you can download from gmd for the first go,
> but eventually I'd like to see Infocom get discussed some.  It might
> be nice to have 3 games for discussion, that way if some people have
> played the "IF of the Month" there will probably be 2 or 3 other
> people who play one of the alternates. You could still have "IF of
> the Month" as one title, but for people who have played that one,
> list a few alternates so that hopefully other people who have played
> the main title already and don't wish to play it again can have
> other people playing another game that they can discuss.

I wouldn't mind a bit if I've already played the IF of the Month; I'd
replay it and, in light of comments, look at it in a new light. (I hope.)
Particularly in something like Losing Your Grip, where there's an awful
lot going on, I'm sure I'd see things I didn't see on the first trip
through.

Plus, we're all pretty busy here, and not everyone will participate every
month. If we have three selections, we might not end up with enough
discussion about any of the three to be interesting.

> > Also, how do people feel about gathering together old threads about the
> > game somewhere so people could read them before the discussion began?

Excellent idea, though for something like Curses gathering the old threads
would be quite a task.

> > And anyone have a better suggestion for a name than 'IF Book Club'?  That
> > doesn't ring right with me for some reason.  'IF Round Table'?  'IF of the
> > Month Club'?  'Sons of IF'?

I like "IF Round Table." Brings to mind the Algonquin.

Can I be Dorothy Parker? Please?

Duncan Stevens
d-stevens@nwu.edu
773-728-9721

And work is the province of cattle,
And rest's for a clam in a shell,
So I'm thinking of throwing the battle--
Would you kindly direct me to hell?

--Dorothy Parker



From dns361@merle.acns.nwu.edu Mon Aug 23 13:16:33 CEST 1999
Article: 63364 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Second April <dns361@merle.acns.nwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [IF Book Club] Call for suggestions
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 08:51:02 -0500
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> Seconds?  Objections?  Other Nominations?

These all strike me as good freeware candidates: Curses, Jigsaw,
Christminster, So Far, Perdition's Flames, Guilty Bastards, Legend Lives
(though, perhaps, not until after the other Unnkulia games), Veritas,
Tryst of Fate, Lost, Waystation, Humbug, Enhanced, any of the Jim
MacBrayne games (they're all very similar).

Shareware: Great Archeological Race, Save Princeton.

Commercial but readily available: Dr. Dumont, Plundered Hearts, Infidel,
Suspended, Ballyhoo, the Enchanter trilogy, LGOP, Deadline, Lurking
Horror. Maybe Trinity and AMFV, depending on whether folks think they've
been overdiscussed already.

Duncan Stevens
d-stevens@nwu.edu
773-728-9721

Love in the open hand, no thing but that,
Ungemmed, unhidden, wishing not to hurt,
As one should bring you cowslips in a hat
Swung from her hand, or apples in her skirt,
I bring you, calling out as children do,
"Look what I have!--And these are all for you."

--Edna St. Vincent Millay




From dbs@cs.wisc.edu Mon Aug 23 13:23:06 CEST 1999
Article: 63374 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: dbs@cs.wisc.edu (Dan Shiovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Bad Machine pause (was Re: [IF Book Club] Call for suggestions)
Followup-To: rec.arts.int-fiction
Date: 23 Aug 1999 07:35:42 GMT
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[Followups to raif, since this is more about programming]

In article <37BD3743.794B@cs.york.ac.uk>,
Iain Merrick  <im@cs.york.ac.uk> wrote:
>Stephen Granade wrote:
>
>> "Avrom Faderman" <Avrom_Faderman@email.msn.com> writes:
>[...]
>> > Why do the objects (the bots, I assume) need to be dynamically created?  Are
>> > they in some way different each game?
>> 
>> No, but would you like to type in objects for each and every robot?
>> Granted, each would undoubtedly only be a line or three, but that can
>> add up very quickly.
>
>We should really be asking Dan 'Inky' Shiovitz, but... couldn't this
>have been done during compilation, with preinit()? (One of TADS's
>handiest features, I think.)

So, the dynamic stuff consists of a couple different things. Originally
all the body parts for the machines were created dynamically, simply
for my convenience-- I could define something like

class drone
 bodyPartClasses = [droneHead droneTorso ...]
and then some initialization routine would do
 bodyPart[0] := new bodyPartClasses[0];
and actually create instances of the appropriate class, so I wouldn't
have to write out the object definitions for each new drone. Later,
for performance reasons, I switched to only dynamically creating for
certain machines (the ones where their body parts could be manipulated
by the player) or something like that. 

For vaguely similar reasons, the id number of each machine was added
as a vocab word dynamically, ie, I'd define drone6: drone id = 7 and
it would add '7' (and '007' and '6-007' and so on) as a noun on its
own. 

This was purely a programmer effort/player time tradeoff, which of
course I shouldn't have made, since it's not really that much more
work to fix it, but the problem comes up because that doing it
statically makes it a zillion times more difficult to
develop. Probably the ideal way is to write a perl script to translate
the development code into production code but, um, I didn't think of
that. 

Oh, and the other big thing is each machine has a shadow object that
follows it around to provide the "To the north, you see a foo"
messages, and those get dynamically created and have all their vocab
dynamically copied over for much the same reasons as above.

Um, right. So I'd originally planned to do this all during preinit()
(or even init()) but tads 2 doesn't seem to handle dynamic creation
during preinit very well at all. So I ended up having to do it during
the game.

>Iain Merrick
-- 
Dan Shiovitz || dbs@cs.wisc.edu || http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~dbs 
"...Incensed by some crack he had made about modern enlightened
thought, modern enlightened thought being practically a personal buddy
of hers, Florence gave him the swift heave-ho and--much against my
will, but she seemed to wish it--became betrothed to me." - PGW, J.a.t.F.S. 


From erkyrath@netcom.com Mon Aug 23 22:23:57 CEST 1999
Article: 63404 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [glulx] questions
Date: 23 Aug 1999 14:45:24 GMT
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Jon Zeppieri <97jaz@my-deja.com> wrote:
> 1. What is the exact difference between local and stack argument
> functions?

The difference is the way the function arguments are handled before the
function starts executing. They're either parlayed out into the first N
local variables, or they're pushed onto the stack. (In the latter case,
all local varaibles start out zeroed.)
 
> 2. Regarding a glulx/Scheme implementation:  it seems that a correct
> implementation of call-with-current-continuation would have to
> circumvent a lot of glulx structure.  The "catch" and "throw" opcodes
> provided by the machine operate on the stack, but a Scheme continuation
> may be invoked even after the procedure which created the continuation
> has returned.

Yeah... unfortunately, it would be a major undertaking to add that kind of
thing to the architecture. It really does require heap allocation, as you
say, and I don't want to put that in the VM definition.

> This, in general, requires heap-allocated continuations
> which save the state of the stack.  One could get around this by doing
> the work oneself, but I think it would be pretty messy since there is no
> way to set the program counter to an arbitrary address.

You could build the entire program as a single Glulx function, and use
branches to get around inside. 

You could have a hidden argument in each function which tells where in
the function to start executing -- each function would start with code to
branch to the first argument. I don't know if that suffices, but it's
possible.

These are both pretty gross.

> That feature could simply be left out (as it is in
> some other Scheme implementations, like Kawa and Stalin, I think). 

Or you could do that. :-) 

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From alant@no.spam.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 17:51:53 CEST 1999
Article: 63487 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Alan Trewartha <alant@no.spam.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:18:17 +0100
Organization: Organisation name, location. Telephone/Fax?
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In article <slrn7s3pb4.adt.jcn-martin-keegan@cavan.jesus.cam.ac.uk>,
Matthew Garrett <URL:mailto:jcn-martin-keegan@jesus.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant232311b49M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>, Graham Nelson wrote:
> 
> >The central computer of Cambridge University, England, an IBM mainframe
> >usually called "Phoenix" after its operating system, was one of those
> 
> all I have to say is "Cool" - I'm even more in favour
> of 80's nostalgia when it's bits of the 80s that I missed out on...

I missed out despite having bloody lectures in the building that housed
it, despite having CompSci friends and despite being forced to do some
physical modelling project for part Ib physics. Do I feel stupid.

This is really great. I read Stephen G's miningco article that mentioned
Acheton... I guess that's not going to be coming our way too quickly :-(, 
but fantastic work on these games. I am, as they say, there.

Philosopher's Quest will be welcome too, as the emulated BBC version I've
got seems a little dodgy.

Now, back to my Vectrex disassembly...

-- 
Mail to alant instead of no.spam



From ghira@mistral.co.uk Wed Aug 25 09:33:46 CEST 1999
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From: "Adam Atkinson" <ghira@mistral.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
Date: 24 Aug 99 22:10:13 +0000
Organization: Collegio Pierpaoli, Montaguzzo
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On 24-Aug-99 17:28:46, Crispin Boylan said:

>Any chance of Kingdom Of Hamil, Quondam and Acheton itself?

The sources for Hamil, Murdac, Avon and Acheton still exist. I think
those for Spy do as well. Things look pretty bad for Hezarin, Quondam
and Xerb: at present, the best chance we have would be to recover the
binaries from a tape backup of Phoenix, decompile them somehow, and
then turn those into z-code. It is claimed that there may be a printout
of the Quondam source somewhere, in which case we could type it all in.

>I'd love to play the full Hamil - or are their copyright problems?

We would need Topologika's blessing to produce zcode versions of
Hamil, Murdac, Quondam, Acheton or Avon. Or indeed the Doom games.

I'm not sure if we need a blessing to release BrandX ... it could be
argued that it's not Philosopher's Quest in the same way that Dungeon
isn't Zork I/II/III.

Such a blessing is being sought - all the authors have said if it's ok
by Topologika, it's ok by them. Graham and I have the matter in hand -
please don't anybody else contact Topologika about this.

The Doom games and other non-Phoenix titles aren't likely to be
z-coded terribly soon, as they were written in a different language.
Indeed, the Phoenix games with Topologika releases were ported into
this other language. I'm told the Topologika releases were usually a
little different from the Phoenix originals - I've not seen the
Topologika versions. I did playtest "Last Days of Doom", though.

-- 
Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk)
BRITISH PUSH BOTTLES UP ENEMY



From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Aug 25 11:23:19 CEST 1999
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
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In rec.arts.int-fiction Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> And as for the ifMUD - I've only visited the place once, during the
> 1997 XYZZY awards ceremony. I pay for internet access by the minute,
> and connecting to a MUD from work would be too flagrant a breach of
> the traditional Swedish Lutheran work ethics. :-)
> 
> Which is a pity, because I gather that most of the goings-on on
> today's IF scene go on at the MUD, rather than in the newsgroups.

Eh, not really. The MUD is a gossip center and font of random
conversation, among a group of people who are a *subset* of the RAIF
regulars. Most of the time we're not talking about IF at all.

(I'd recommend the Implementor's Lunches as an exception, but I've missed
every single one since the first. Sigh.)

If anything, I'd say that most of the goings-on in modern IF have moved to
our individual apartments, studies, and offices. The trend I see is that
people are implementing their ideas, instead of bringing them up on the
newsgroup for discussion.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From ghira@mistral.co.uk Wed Aug 25 11:23:36 CEST 1999
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From: "Adam Atkinson" <ghira@mistral.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
Date: 24 Aug 99 22:10:13 +0000
Organization: Collegio Pierpaoli, Montaguzzo
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On 24-Aug-99 17:28:46, Crispin Boylan said:

>Any chance of Kingdom Of Hamil, Quondam and Acheton itself?

The sources for Hamil, Murdac, Avon and Acheton still exist. I think
those for Spy do as well. Things look pretty bad for Hezarin, Quondam
and Xerb: at present, the best chance we have would be to recover the
binaries from a tape backup of Phoenix, decompile them somehow, and
then turn those into z-code. It is claimed that there may be a printout
of the Quondam source somewhere, in which case we could type it all in.

>I'd love to play the full Hamil - or are their copyright problems?

We would need Topologika's blessing to produce zcode versions of
Hamil, Murdac, Quondam, Acheton or Avon. Or indeed the Doom games.

I'm not sure if we need a blessing to release BrandX ... it could be
argued that it's not Philosopher's Quest in the same way that Dungeon
isn't Zork I/II/III.

Such a blessing is being sought - all the authors have said if it's ok
by Topologika, it's ok by them. Graham and I have the matter in hand -
please don't anybody else contact Topologika about this.

The Doom games and other non-Phoenix titles aren't likely to be
z-coded terribly soon, as they were written in a different language.
Indeed, the Phoenix games with Topologika releases were ported into
this other language. I'm told the Topologika releases were usually a
little different from the Phoenix originals - I've not seen the
Topologika versions. I did playtest "Last Days of Doom", though.

-- 
Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk)
BRITISH PUSH BOTTLES UP ENEMY



From adamc@duke.edu Fri Aug 27 22:01:05 CEST 1999
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From: Adam Cadre <adamc@duke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: in-jokes in IF
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:44:32 -0400
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Over in rec.games.int-fiction, there has been some discussion of the 
"in-jokes" in my latest game, Varicella.  I have no intention of 
either defending or lamenting their inclusion, but I do have some more 
general observations about such jokes, and so I figured this group was 
a more suitable place for this post.

It seems to me that there are three quite different categories of quip 
being designated as "in-jokey."  The first of these consists of what *I* 
consider in-jokes: strings of words that are funny if you recognize the 
reference, and essentially meaningless if you don't.  This sort of joke 
is typical of the ever-popular game-set-at-my-school / workplace / 
dormitory / etc.  "Oh no! You are attacked by Mr. Fenters! 'Put your 
homework in the brown box!' he screams."  At worst, this sort of thing 
can devolve into the sort of thing one finds in the year-end senior 
magazine: "To A.G., H.F., K.B. and T.W.: hugz! And never forget: 
HEADBANDS!!! Ha ha ha".  Most people, I suspect, put this sort of thing 
down before too long, frustrated at its utter lack of value to anyone not 
in the clique.  At least, I do.  (cf. 99.9% of the posts in 
rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc.)

This isn't to say that this sort of thing should be entirely verboten in 
IF, of course.  I find such jokes make perfect fodder for easter eggs: if 
the people likely to try a certain command are also likely to understand 
the response, why not use it?  The "hollow voice" jokes, for instance, 
are only likely to make sense to the seasoned IF veteran.  But who other 
than a seasoned IF veteran is likely to try >XYZZY?  It's hardly 
something a complete newcomer to IF is likely to try and be confused by, 
so where's the harm?

Then we come to a second category of "in-jokes," which I don't really 
consider in-jokes at all: those quips which are comprehensible to all, 
and extra funny to those who get the reference.  For instance, in 
Varicella, one character carries a rifle, and if you ask him about it, he 
replies, "Big gun kick the hell outta you."  Now, if you know that this 
is the description of the gun in the infamous Stiffy Makane, you'll get 
the joke; if not, it's still a perfectly reasonably thing for that 
character to say, given his personality.

Initially, I thought such jokes were harmless -- if you don't know 
something is a joke, you can't be frustrated by not getting it.  No one, 
for instance, has complained of feeling left out because they don't 
understand why "Marco Pulisci" is supposed to be funny: they don't know 
the name is a reference, and so just assume that it's an arbitrary name 
and move on without giving it any further thought.  As well they should.  
(For what it's worth, Marco Pulisci was the universally despised student 
body president of the University of California in 1994, his tenure marked 
by scandal after scandal.)  Instead, I've discovered, it's the people who 
*do* get most of the riffs who have complained -- it makes the game 
excessively jokey, they've charged.  Fair enough, though that's a design 
choice: I do like the tactic of (deliberately unsuccessfully) hiding 
disturbing material behind a mask of mirth (a la Humbert Humbert.)  I may 
weary of the trick eventually, but right now, I still think that 
employing a narrator who doesn't seem to understand that the story he has 
to tell is *not* a wacky comedy is a neat gimmick.  Will I use it again 
in the future?  Probably.  But not right away.

This brings us to the third category of "in-joke."  Among the misgivings 
expressed about Varicella has been that the jokiness and especially the 
self-reference (to the game's save-and-restore nature, for instance) make 
the game feel too "gamelike."  This sort of thing I don't consider 
"in-jokey" at all: it's nothing more than the signature postmodern move 
of acknowledging that a given text is a wrought object.  I have something 
of a mental block against deception -- at the Xyzzy Awards last February, 
for instance, I couldn't even bring myself to play the character of Tracy 
without prefacing it by saying, "Hey, everyone, it's me, Adam. Now I'm 
going to pretend to be this character for a bit, but of course really I'm 
not."  This is why I can't roleplay: I'm forever pointing out that "Um, 
excuse me? You're not Lady Crymson from the mystic kingdom of Ecordia -- 
you're Karen from Thousand Oaks, California."  And so I may never be able 
to write a computer game that doesn't acknowledge that it's a computer 
game.  Because it *is* a computer game.  And my novel refers to itself as 
a novel, and many of my songs refer to themselves as songs, because 
that's what they are.  Does that break mimesis?  I can't say I've ever 
had the experince of forgetting that a text is a text, so for me, such 
reminders don't really break anything.  But hey, it takes all kinds to 
make a world.  (It also takes magma and stuff.)

The post has drifted from its original purpose, so I believe I'll type 
Ctrl-X now.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Issaquah, WA
 http://adamcadre.ac


From erkyrath@netcom.com Sat Aug 28 09:21:27 CEST 1999
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
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In rec.arts.int-fiction Adam Atkinson <ghira@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27-Aug-99 15:05:14, J.D. Berry said:
> 
>>   While I like the idea behind Crobe and was psyched to play it, I
>>just became too frustrated with the parser to continue playing after
>>fifteen minutes.  Yes I know it's from the '80s.  Yes I appreciate the
>>work that went into it.  Yes I know I'm spoiled.
> 
> The games were all written with the two-word parser in mind, so there
> shouldn't be any NEED at all to say "go north and throw all but the
> ancient key under the bed".

But it's uncomfortable to be faced with a Crobe-master who says "You can
give things to me", and know that "give object to crobe" isn't the right
answer. I have to think about what to type, which isn't ideal. It's not
just a matter of ignoring all the four-word commands.

And I do get frustrated when no version of "examine" works. Even if it
would produce a "nothing interesting" message every time, it's still part
of my navigation instincts, and I feel a bit blinded when it's not there.

(Not to mention "l" and "i".)

I realize that this is an exercise in historical restoration, not a new
game project. Nonetheless, I'm not tremendously motivated to get into
these games.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From ecr+@andrew.cmu.edu Sat Aug 28 14:37:15 CEST 1999
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From: Evin C Robertson <ecr+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: z-machine interpreter idea
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Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.int-fiction: 28-Aug-99 z-machine
interpreter idea by curtis_c@lxe.com 
> I would like to propose an extension to the z-machine interpreter.

(thinks: hm, maybe I could throw it into nitfol ;)

> It seems that it would be pretty easy to alter a Frotz or Zip
> interpreter to be multithreaded, allowing more than one player to play.

I've already implemented multiplayer Inform.  (And Dan Shiovitz wrote
some nasty hacks for TADS)  Doesn't require any z-machine changes, just
a modified inform library and a specific Glk library.  Check out Floyd
on ifMUD.  I have a copy of 'Adventure' compiled against my library
changes there, along with my implementation of 'Werewolf' and Adam
Cadre's 'Parrot Stock Exchange'.

Each player has their own player object, which keeps track of its own
score, death-status, etc.  If you're in the same room with another
player, you see their actions (for default actions and actions which you
program to result in others seeing them).  You can also talk to other
players in the same room.

If you want to write a game, check out
http://ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/source/inform/werewolf.inf for an
example game.  You'll need 
http://ifarchive.org/if-archive/infocom/compilers/inform6/library/contrib
utions/multifloyd.h and
http://ifarchive.org/if-archive/infocom/compilers/inform6/library/contrib
utions/array.h to compile it.


Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.int-fiction: 27-Aug-99 Re: z-machine
interpreter idea by Jim Aikin@pacbell.net 
>Well, as a programmer I'm strictly a duffer, but I can think of one:
>What sort of I/O are you proposing to use? Multiple users arm-wrestling
>at one keyboard for the right to type the next input line? Probably not.
>Probably you're thinking of an IF-MUD type thing, where each user is on
>their own computer and all are linked via modem. So the Z-machine (or
>call it the Z++ machine) would have to be enhanced to accept packets of
>input from hither and yon.

ifMUD indeed.  Floyd uses the mud to accept packets.  If there's enough
interest, I'll look at implementing a non-ifMUD version.  Or if people
want more/better documentation, I'll write that.

>That's the I/ side of the equation. At first glance, the /O side looks a
>little less thorny, but it still needs to be considered. If player A is
>in room 1, player B is in room 2, and player C is in room 3, all's well.
>The Z++ machine can alter the state of other rooms in the background,
>without player A needing to be notified of what's going on. Player A's
>screen can tell her what's going on in room 1 just as it does now.

Right.

>But what happens when players A and B are both in room 67 at the same
>time, and each types, say, 'take the bag of zorkmids'? Player A's Z++
>machine can't simply move the bag of zorkmids to the player A object: It
>first has to poll all of the other players' Z++ machines to determine
>whether the bag is available for taking, or whether somebody else is
>trying to take it too. Meanwhile, player B's Z++ machine is sending out
>an identical polling message. One of the Z++ machines has to take
>priority and adjudicate this tangle. And what if, in the middle of the
>adjudication process, player C suddenly strolls into room 67? What does
>her Z++ machine tell her about the state of the objects in the room?

There is only one z-machine running; it takes commands and sends text
>from  and to the various players.  Whoever's command gets there first
wins.  Player B gets an "I don't see that here." right after she sees
"Jim takes the bag of coins."

In the games I've written so far, it's a free-for-all, but turn-taking
could easily be implemented.  I've been thinking of implementing bridge,
but haven't gotten around to it.

What I really need to do is come up with a more IF-like scenario in
which teamwork/competition is valuable.

>Oh, yeah. Piece of cake. Code it up in a weekend.

About.  Maybe a couple more days to get the kinks out of it.



From im@cs.york.ac.uk Mon Aug 30 10:11:40 CEST 1999
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From: Iain Merrick <im@cs.york.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: in-jokes in IF
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Adam Cadre wrote:

[...]
> It seems to me that there are three quite different categories of quip
> being designated as "in-jokey."  The first of these consists of what *I*
> consider in-jokes: strings of words that are funny if you recognize the
> reference, and essentially meaningless if you don't.  This sort of joke
> is typical of the ever-popular game-set-at-my-school / workplace /
> dormitory / etc.  "Oh no! You are attacked by Mr. Fenters! 'Put your
> homework in the brown box!' he screams."  At worst, this sort of thing
> can devolve into the sort of thing one finds in the year-end senior
> magazine: "To A.G., H.F., K.B. and T.W.: hugz! And never forget:
> HEADBANDS!!! Ha ha ha".  Most people, I suspect, put this sort of thing
> down before too long, frustrated at its utter lack of value to anyone not
> in the clique.  At least, I do.  (cf. 99.9% of the posts in
> rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc.)

Okay, I definitely agree with that.

Although there was a comp game set in someone's office which was quite
successful at making private jokes accessible to an outside audience.
I'm ashamed to say I can't remember the name, but I think it was written
by Mischa Schwartz.

> Then we come to a second category of "in-jokes," which I don't really
> consider in-jokes at all: those quips which are comprehensible to all,
> and extra funny to those who get the reference.  For instance, in
> Varicella, one character carries a rifle, and if you ask him about it, he
> replies, "Big gun kick the hell outta you."  Now, if you know that this
> is the description of the gun in the infamous Stiffy Makane, you'll get
> the joke; if not, it's still a perfectly reasonably thing for that
> character to say, given his personality.

For me, that just didn't work either way. It didn't seem a particularly
coherent thing for someone to say within the game world, and as a joke
it wasn't funny. Maybe I need a sense-of-humour transplant? I didn't
think much of _Sins Against Mimesis_ either, so there you go.

[...]
> Instead, I've discovered, it's the people who
> *do* get most of the riffs who have complained -- it makes the game
> excessively jokey, they've charged.  Fair enough, though that's a design
> choice: I do like the tactic of (deliberately unsuccessfully) hiding
> disturbing material behind a mask of mirth (a la Humbert Humbert.)

Yeah, that can work, although for me it _was_ successful. I laughed
quite a bit while playing Varicella, but I wasn't remotely disturbed by
anything.

[...]
> This brings us to the third category of "in-joke."  Among the misgivings
> expressed about Varicella has been that the jokiness and especially the
> self-reference (to the game's save-and-restore nature, for instance) make
> the game feel too "gamelike."  This sort of thing I don't consider
> "in-jokey" at all: it's nothing more than the signature postmodern move
> of acknowledging that a given text is a wrought object.

Hmm. I wonder if there's a distinction to be made here between direct
and indirect self-reference. (Somebody stop me if I start getting too
Hofstadtery.)

For example, at one point in Varicella, someone says, "unfortunately,
nobody gets the chance to go back in time and change things", or
something like that. I liked that, because it's something that makes
sense as part of the story, but at the same time it _indirectly_ refers
to the game.

If that character had gone on to say, "apart from Varicella, since this
is all just an interactive game and he's the lead character, and the
player can keep replaying the game until s/he wins", it would have
spoiled the effect entirely.

I think that sort of direct self-reference is less satisfying, simply
because it's easy to do, whereas a good indirect self-reference takes a
bit of finesse. I'd put the 'big gun kick the hell out of you!' thing
down as a direct reference -- and to a _different_ game, besides.

Writers have been using subtle indirect self-reference for centuries.
I'm not sure what postmoderism is supposed to have added to this, unless
it's to say that everything goes, and direct self-reference is also
okay. If so, I disagree.

However, I think a strong link formed some time ago in my brain between
the word 'postmodern' and the word 'bollocks', so I could just be
talking complete postmodernism here.

> I can't say I've ever had the experince of forgetting that a text is a
> text, so for me, such reminders don't really break anything.

Really? Interesting. I've never got mixed up between, say, a book and
the real world, but that doesn't mean I never get immersed in the story.
And I think an outright, direct 'reminder' of the book's position in the
real world spoils that -- in some cases, at least.

If you never forget that a text is a text, why would you need a
reminder?

-- 
Iain Merrick
im@cs.york.ac.uk


From pmt6jrp@gps.leeds.ac.uk Wed Sep  1 13:13:52 CEST 1999
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From: pmt6jrp@gps.leeds.ac.uk (J R Partington)
Subject: Re: Done with Sangraal!
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In article <7qer3t$aco$1@nnrp1.deja.com> haraldh@math.princeton.edu writes:
>
>I just finished playing Sangraal. My apologies to A.A. for having
>importuned him, and the strongest possible injunction to all others
>to enjoy this terse and wry play on most of Western civilization.
>

Congratulations. Sorry we can't add you the blackboard in Nastil-Xarn,
but you know how it is...

Jonathan Partington

---

In "Kingdom of the Leather Pharaoh of Bradford," you escape the old
lady by climbing a tree but don't forget to throw the amulet.




From robb_sherwin@juno.com Thu Sep  2 11:32:39 CEST 1999
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From: robb_sherwin@juno.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Storytelling the IF way
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:12:57 GMT
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In article <7qjsj4$fsq$1@shell16.ba.best.com>,
  siffert@best.com (Curt Siffert) wrote:
> Just wondering, how many of you have experimented with just doing
> regular verbal storytelling in the IF style?  Having a rough idea
> of the story you want to tell, and then telling it to your
> audience and letting them affect the direction?
> Huh.... now that I think about it, how is this different from RPGs?


Back when I used to play AD&D regularly it used to be just like that. I
had a story that I wanted to tell, but it was tempered and changed by
the game's players. I remember that I had planned one session to take
place with a few events and right at the beginning my brother's
character acquired lycanthropy (he was slowly turning into a werewolf).

I knew there was a small chance someone could become infected but
hadn't anticipated it seriously happening. After the infection, though,
it threw a new level of "drama" (er, as far as drama for D&D goes) into
the mix, as all the players slowly became aware that *someone* was
freaking out at night and it could be anyone of them. Meanwhile, they
still had a mission to complete with disasterous results if they failed
-- regardless of whether or not one of their number was slowly turning
mad.

That's, I think, when role playing games work best. When a story is
told through the meshing of your mind & the minds of all your friends.
The dice, excessive rules, and images of dragons & satanists grab all
the headlines but it's the decisions, teamwork and joint resulting
story that really makes RPGs such a solid hobby.

It's also the loss of author's control (also, obviously, present in IF)
that I find so invigorating. To tell a story that is sensible,
entertaining and well-crafted *dispite* allowing the audience a measure
of control over pacing, character relations and outcome is an extremely
exciting concept. We have an opportunity (given to us through
technology) to tell stories in a way that would have been impossible
for previous generations to do. It's a challenge, yes, but one that has
enormously entertaining payoffs when met.


[And, of course, if you're not up to the challenge like Myst co-creator
Robyn Miller, you can always trash the concept while leaving the hobby
to go make nice & safe & non-interactive movies.]


-- Robb




--
Robb Sherwin, Fort Collins CO
Reviews From Trotting Krips: http://ifiction.tsx.org
Knight Orc Home Page: www.geocities.com/~knightorc


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.


From ghira@mistral.co.uk Mon Sep  6 23:42:36 CEST 1999
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From: "Adam Atkinson" <ghira@mistral.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Is EXAMINE necessary? (was Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal)
Date: 06 Sep 99 19:14:18 +0000
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On 06-Sep-99 15:49:24, Iain Merrick said:

>I don't think it's just a case of games being 'good for their time'.
>Some games are Just Not Very Good. Many of the Infocom games are flawed
>by modern standards, but they're still good games. Sphinx Adventure
>isn't.

I've never seen Sphinx, but lots of people seem to agree with you.

>And -- in my opinion, at least -- the Phoenix games aren't very
>good either.

The Phoenix games are part of a whole separate tradition. Yes, they
tend to be cruel, terse, and somewhat chocka with puzzles. But as long
as you know that's what you're getting, I don't see the problem with
this.

I know that Loom and Monkey Island are non-ruinable, so I approach
them in a certain way. I know that Fyleet (to take an extreme example)
is full of instadeaths, sequencing problems, and so on, and so I
approach it a different way.

I don't think Sangraal and Crobe are so out of line with the way
things are done today - the attempts to include mazes with some kind
of twist to them is perhaps not likely to go down well these days, but
this is a Phoenix-ism.

JRP may wish to correct me on this one, but I think Sangraal was
supposed to be aimed at beginners at the time. As an introduction to
the Phoenix game tradition, I think it works pretty well.

Fyleet is, admittedly, pretty cruel by modern standards. It's pretty
cruel even by Phoenix standards.

But if you haven't played Quondam or Xeno, you shouldn't imagine you
know what cruelty is. Actually, you might find Xeno worth a try - I
think the style is quite unlike the other Phoenix games. It's not any
kind of a treasure hunt.

-- 
Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk)
#include <disclaimer.h>



From wild_dj@mit.edu Mon Sep  6 23:44:44 CEST 1999
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From: wild_dj@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom)
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Subject: Re: how 'real' should a game be?
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In article <siogffnaw4.fsf@cre.canon.co.uk>,
Gareth Rees  <garethr@cre.canon.co.uk> wrote:
>timsim <timsim@gateway.net> wrote:
>> Would a player be annoyed if they typed 'drop bottle' and it broke?
>
>I think so -- "drop X" is just an adventure game shorthand for "put X on
>the floor".  Inform by default converts the latter to the former.  Why
>require people to type the extra words?  (Anyway, "Advent" already has a
>puzzle involving a object that breaks if it's dropped.)

I'd agree with that--and I thought that puzzle in Advent was so unfair.
Usually, drop doesn't mean "hold several feet above the floor and release" in
gaming terminology, but rather, set down on the floor/table/counter/whatever.
There would I suppose be exceptions. Obviously, if you're on a tiny platform
over a pit, or hanging from one hand on a tree branch, "drop" doesn't have this
meaning, but usually it would.

>> Along these same lines, to what level of detail should actions be
>> implemented?  Should the player say open door or must they turn the
>> knob then pull door?
>
>None of the above.  If the player walks south and there's a door in the
>way, the game should open the door for them.  It should really also
>unlock the door if it's locked and the player has previously unlocked it
>and is carrying the appropriate key.

Basically, you want the player's commands to the game to be the same as the
commands the player might make to a slightly unintelligent person capable of
dealing with simple situations. For instance, you wouldn't say to such a
person: "turn that knob, then pull the door, then walk through the hole where
the door used to be." Doing so would be offensive to even the least capable
member of humanity. By the same token, however, you can't give the computer the
command "SOLVE THE 7-DISC TOWER OF HANOI", as that skips over an element which,
to the great multitude of people, would be unclear (granted, any author who
includes a 7-disc tower of Hanoi should rethink their design concept). I think
the point might be that the computer should react in the same way as most
people would. If I put a random person in a room with a door on the south wall,
(and a compass, I suppose) and a table in the next room, and told you to "get
the bottle of wine then go south then drop the bottle", how often do you think
my subject would complain about not being able to go that way and smash the
bottle?

+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into         |
| theorems.              -Paul Erdos                          |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|                       Jake Wildstrom                        |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+


From jaikin.spam_begone@pacbell.net Mon Sep  6 23:47:34 CEST 1999
Article: 64009 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Jim Aikin <jaikin.spam_begone@pacbell.net>
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:64009

timsim wrote:
> 
> How real should an IF/adventure game be?  Would a player be annoyed if they
> typed 'drop bottle' and it broke?  Is it overkill to implement the sun
> rising and setting and periodic storms and even seasons?  What about the
> eating and drinking to survive?

Absolute realism is not even remotely achievable in text-based IF (and
not in any other kind, either -- great graphics are only realistic if
you don't try to touch or manipulate anything you see). Every game
contains a number of fairly serious compromises. If you THINK the game
is realistic, that only means the author has cleverly made the right
compromises.

Assuming you want to create a fairly rich experience, you can include
arbitrary numbers of scenery objects that are there for no purpose other
than to allow 'x rutabaga', 'taste rutabaga', 'smell rutabaga', and so
on. This may seem to add to the realism. The difficulty, I've
discovered, is that your players will inconsiderately try to actually
SOLVE puzzles using the damn rutabaga, and get frustrated when they
can't pick it up. In trying to make my game more realistic, then, I
ended up creating more roadblocks for the player -- that is, in some
sense it became LESS realistic.

I don't know the answer to this one. If the rutabaga is in the room
description, having the game constantly respond "That's not something
you need to refer to in the course of this game" isn't very realistic
either. If the rutabaga isn't in the room description, you've written an
impoverished room description in an effort to make the game more
realistic, which makes no sense whatever.

> Along THESE same lines, assuming you wanted to keep your game fairly clear
> of much humor, especially the in-jokes and references to the game or its
> author, would it be ok to use some humor or just avoid it altogether?
> Example: player types 'pick nose'.  Your game is a dark game with real dying
> etc.  Should you allow a reply such as 'Using the pinky of your right hand,
> you deftly extract that annoying booger."?  My gut instinct is to avoid the
> throw away jokes and cheap humor if your game's theme is on the darker side.

Right. Consistency of tone is important in any kind of fiction.

--Jim Aikin


From garethr@cre.canon.co.uk Tue Sep  7 21:19:49 CEST 1999
Article: 64069 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
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From: Gareth Rees <garethr@cre.canon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:58:17 GMT
Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:64069 rec.games.int-fiction:45572

J R Partington <pmt6jrp@gps.leeds.ac.uk> wrote:
> No, you've missed the point. The sort of puzzle that we have in mind
> is one where there is a unique route through a maze, which is told to
> you in a cryptic message by a character in the game (and different
> players of the game will be given different routes and hence different
> cryptic messages).

It's often possible to arrange things so that the game can *tell*
whether or not the player has really solved the puzzle, or is just
guessing.

For example, suppose an adventure game had the "find one counterfeit
coin out of twelve in three weighings on a balance" puzzle [1].  The
writer of the game could use the following implementation:

  * keep track of which possibilities the player has ruled out in the
    weighings so far;

  * when the player sets up a weighing, choose at random a result that
    is consistent with the remaining possibilities;

  * at the end when the player has revealed which coin they think is
    counterfeit, let them win only if there is a single possibility
    remaining and they named it correctly.  If there are multiple
    possibilities remaining, the game reveals one of the possibilities
    the player didn't name and thus the player loses.

With this implementation, saving the game does the player no good.
Neither does guessing randomly.  So the player must really solve the
puzzle.

This is obviously a bit more work for the author -- and not all puzzles
can easily be made to fit this kind of implementation strategy -- but I
think it gives a much better impression of fairness to the player than
just denying the player the opportunity to save the game.

[1] Don't do this!  It's been done before.

-- 
Gareth Rees


From magus@cs.cmu.edu Tue Sep  7 21:20:26 CEST 1999
Article: 64070 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Nat Lanza <magus@cs.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
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pmt6jrp@gps.leeds.ac.uk (J R Partington) writes:

> No, you've missed the point. The sort of puzzle that we have in mind
> is one where there is a unique route through a maze, which is told to
> you in a cryptic message by a character in the game (and different
> players of the game will be given different routes and hence different
> cryptic messages). 

I don't think I have missed the point. If you want to require the
player to find the cryptic message before solving the maze, make the
maze unsolvable until the player gets the message. With appropriate
"You seem to be getting completely lost"-style hinting, only the most
bloody-minded players will keep trying to brute-force solve the maze.

Restricting saves so you don't have to do this is a shortcut for the
author. It isn't necessary for this sort of puzzle, it just makes
writing them easier.

> Once you have the message you need to demonstrate that you know what
> it means by rushing through the maze. If instead you save the game and
> later find the correct route by trial and error, then you have not
> solved the puzzle.

So what stops a player from saving as close to the maze as possible
and then brute-forcing it? Unless you disable saving entirely, you
don't. And if you make a long game that doesn't have a save feature,
you've just managed to make an unplayable game.

Determined players will find a wrong way around and puzzle. You can't
stop that. So why inconvenience everybody to protect your puzzle from
a pathological few?

> Many variations on this theme are possible, of course.
> 
> Saving and restoring is such an artificial thing to do anyway (when did
> you last manage it in real life?) that maybe it should be banned in
> all games 8-)

See, this ties into the realism issue. I don't play games to have a
totally realistic experience. I play them to have fun. Not being able
to save and quit when I want to is not fun. I don't like games that
aren't fun.


--nat

-- 
nat lanza --------------------- research programmer, parallel data lab, cmu scs
magus@cs.cmu.edu -------------------------------- http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~magus/
there are no whole truths; all truths are half-truths -- alfred north whitehead


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Sep  7 22:14:11 CEST 1999
Article: 64076 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:64076 rec.games.int-fiction:45575

In rec.arts.int-fiction Nat Lanza <magus@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
> pmt6jrp@gps.leeds.ac.uk (J R Partington) writes:
> 
>> No, you've missed the point. The sort of puzzle that we have in mind
>> is one where there is a unique route through a maze, which is told to
>> you in a cryptic message by a character in the game (and different
>> players of the game will be given different routes and hence different
>> cryptic messages). 
> 
> I don't think I have missed the point. If you want to require the
> player to find the cryptic message before solving the maze, make the
> maze unsolvable until the player gets the message. With appropriate
> "You seem to be getting completely lost"-style hinting, only the most
> bloody-minded players will keep trying to brute-force solve the maze.

Well, there are tradeoffs either way. 

In most instances of that particular maze-case, I agree with you. But a
maze where the game tells you to not even try *is* a different experience.

At worst, it's a one-room area with a constant description, where trying
to move around has no effect (or is not permitted.) That's just dull. I
mean, the player won't even really feel like he's lost in a maze. It's
just a room with an indistinct description.

You could have a random-movement maze, where moving around has
non-deterministic results. That can work, but it can also break realism to
some extent, depending on the setting.

(You say that you don't play for realism, but this is a matter of degree
just like anything else. Everyone eventually hits the point where they say
"The author is putting words on the screen, but they don't make a damn bit
of sense.")

Another approach is to have a well-described maze, with lots of rooms that
you can distinguish (if only by their exits). But then one exit has to
mysteriously change when you learn the key information. This too is very
jarring. "I already *tried* that!" (One common dodge is making an exit
*appear*, where you didn't notice it before.)

> Restricting saves so you don't have to do this is a shortcut for the
> author. It isn't necessary for this sort of puzzle, it just makes
> writing them easier.

It's neither a shortcut nor a necessity; it's one solution to a well-known
design problem.

Of course, the favored solution for maze design these days (meaning the
past fifteen years) has been "leave it out". But there are lots of other
instances of the brute-force-approachable puzzle, and not all of them are
worn out. (And even mazes can inspire fresh approaches, of course.)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From pmt6jrp@gps.leeds.ac.uk Thu Sep  9 12:46:38 CEST 1999
Article: 64156 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: pmt6jrp@gps.leeds.ac.uk (J R Partington)
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
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In article <ant081944345M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk> Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>Much as "Eliza" was a Rogerian psychotherapist, "Groan" provided
>a sort of artificially intelligent Claude Levi-Strauss, offering
>structuralist analyses of all literary forms.  The classic
>"groan with drwho" option, for instance, used a database of all
>170 Dr Who plots arranged in a Vladimir Propp-like fashion in
>order to explore the Derridean jouissance of a random story in
>Dr Who-space, piecing together fragments such as "but the Master
>escapes in a hovercraft" with an almost... an almost authorial
>bricolage.

Actually, a web version of Groan exists, but the author (not me)
doesn't want the whole world thrashing her computer.  To let Groan
speak for itself:

Recalling Ricoeur, the reader will enthrone the structurally proleptic
interconnectivities of intertextual rarefaction regarding the
pseudo-structuralization of this (!) sparsely transdiciplinary positivity. 

In next week's Dr Who story a dream of Tegan's causes the Doctor to head
for the planet Peladon, where he encounters the hideous form of Count
Grendel, who travelled forward from 1638 by means of a strange potion.
Unfortunately the Castrovalvans are artificially aged and turn into a pile
of dead leaves and so the Doctor destroys the aliens with sulphuric acid. 

Of course in 1946 there was a lunar eclipse which was mind-blowing it
signalled the end of the world as we know it and I got blurred shots using
time-lapse there'll be another one in 2057 which will be visible from
Kerguelen Island of course the Egyptians thought they were caused by a
goblin singing to the moon did you know that Halley conducted human
sacrifices when they came round... 

JRP



From dgatewood@bigfoot.com Sat Sep 11 00:11:06 CEST 1999
Article: 64226 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Dave G <dgatewood@bigfoot.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:55:23 -0400
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J R Partington wrote:
> An enchanted wobblefiend says "SUNBURN" to you in a meaningful
> fashion, and warns you to act on the information at once. You are then
> supposed to go to the Labyrinth of the Sacred Turnip and make the
> following moves: SOUTH, UP, NORTH, BACK, UP, RIGHT, NORTH, before you
> next save the game.

I can't see why saves would need to be restricted in this particular
example.  What the author of this puzzle would want to prevent is a
player finding a path through the maze *before* he learns the secret
code.  Once the player has the code, that problem has already been
avoided, and saving the game gives the player no unfair advantages
whatsoever.

A better workaround in this case is not to disallow saves, but to do as
you say below:

> Of course, SUNBURN won't work until you have been told the
> route (and next time you play the game it might be WELDERS).

Perhaps someone could come up with another example?  I'm not trying to
be argumentative: I'm sincerely curious if there is an example of a
puzzle where disallowing saves is truly necessary.  Any example I can
think of could be taken care of more elegantly by the "Spellbreaker
cubes" method (of which "SUNBURN won't work until you've been told that"
is a distant cousin).


From cerutti@together.net Mon Sep 13 22:37:33 CEST 1999
Article: 64284 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
From: cerutti@together.net (Neil Cerutti)
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
References: <1999Sep8.085722.11666@leeds.ac.uk> <37D97E4B.55F7@bigfoot.com> <1918.923T1272T4563809ghira@mistral.co.uk> <37da92d0@news.together.net> <2283.923T1452T11484425ghira@mistral.co.uk>
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In article <2283.923T1452T11484425ghira@mistral.co.uk>, "Adam Atkinson" <ghira@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
>>"For some reason you wander off in a random direction without really
>>wanting to." -- JRP1
>
>Ah yes. This is something even I found annoying about Fyleet. How is
>Fyleet going?

Good. The maze that involves the above message is fairly small, and can easily 
be solved by randomly moving about, sort of.

I've made it to the Hippogrif rides, and I'm trying to decide how to figure 
out what each coin is worth without wasting them.

Fyleet, for all its horrible and unexpected deaths, is fun. As I said earlier, 
almost every death is pretty funny, which makes up for them to some extent.

Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu>


From ghira@mistral.co.uk Mon Sep 13 22:37:55 CEST 1999
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From: "Adam Atkinson" <ghira@mistral.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
Date: 13 Sep 99 18:36:56 +0000
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On 13-Sep-99 17:27:40, Neil Cerutti said:

>>>"For some reason you wander off in a random direction without really
>>>wanting to." -- JRP1
>>
>>Ah yes. This is something even I found annoying about Fyleet. How is
>>Fyleet going?

>Good. The maze that involves the above message is fairly small, and can
>easily  be solved by randomly moving about, sort of.

I still have my maps and notes for Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal and Acheton
>from  13 or so years ago. Haven't found the Murdac, Hamil or Avon notes
yet.

>I've made it to the Hippogrif rides, and I'm trying to decide how to figure 
>out what each coin is worth without wasting them.

Well, you probably have to save, try them all, and restore. The values
of the coins don't change, but the price of the ride does.

>Fyleet, for all its horrible and unexpected deaths, is fun. As I said
>earlier,  almost every death is pretty funny, which makes up for them to some
>extent.

Super. How close are you to finishing, do you think?

-- 
Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk)
VOLCANO MISSING FEARED DEAD



From im@cs.york.ac.uk Wed Sep 15 16:07:09 CEST 1999
Article: 64349 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Iain Merrick <im@cs.york.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Announcing: Fyleet, Crobe, Sangraal
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Adam Atkinson wrote:
[...]
> Let us suppose that the player has realised that the crytpic message
> is supposed to convey information about the correct path, but doesn't
> understand how. The player might then get the message, save, and try
> every possible path through the maze, restoring and retrying until one
> of them works.
> 
> It does look as though prohibiting saves after the cryptic message has
> been imparted is necessary. Saves become possible again after the
> player has exited the maze.

By the same argument, surely, the player might realise that the message
holds information about the maze, and disassemble the game file to
discover how to decode it. So it's also 'necessary' to make the game
file as unreadable as possible, with encryption and so on.

Alternatively, you could just structure your puzzle in such a way that
solving it properly is obviously easier and more straightforward than
cheating. The animal symbols puzzle in Riven is a good example: you
_could_ solve it by brute force, but it's obvious that this would take a
very long time.

In the 'SUNBURN' example, it could be arranged such that you always
stumble out of the maze after your seventh move. If you've made the
_correct_ seven moves, you come out at the other side or whatever. You
get no immediate feedback about whether your first few moves are
correct, so UNDO isn't much help; therefore, the brute-force solution is
possible, just incredibly difficult.

That way, the player can still SAVE and UNDO, but the author can be
confident that the player will solve the puzzle properly. So everyone's
happy, unless I've overlooked something.

-- 
Iain Merrick
im@cs.york.ac.uk


From obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU Wed Sep 15 20:40:26 CEST 1999
Article: 64350 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Paul O'Brian <obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction
Subject: [Announce] SPAG 18 is out!
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:03:38 -0600
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SPAG 18 has just been released! The issue includes reviews of the
following games:

Aisle
Anchorhead
The Awakening
Detective
Golden Wombat of Destiny
Jewel of Knowledge
Mystery Science Theater Adventure #1 ("Detective")
Varicella
Wearing the Claw

I've sent the new issue to all SPAG subscribers, and also uploaded a copy
to the incoming/if-archive directory. This file will soon be moved to:

ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/magazines/SPAG/SPAG18

In addition, a copy will be posted later today on the SPAG web page at:

http://www.sparkynet.com/spag

Speaking of that web page, the good news I have is that I've been working
hard on the review index, and that index is now complete up through issue
#14. The format of the index has also been revamped to look a little
cleaner, and lots of little errors within it have been cleaned up. Take a
look!

Issue #19 of SPAG will be the annual Competition special, so send me those
competition game reviews. And as always, thank you for helping to keep
text adventures alive!

-- 
Paul O'Brian  obrian@colorado.edu  http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
"Sometimes even music cannot substitute for tears."
                                               -- Paul Simon





From manorsof@iol.ie Mon Sep 20 14:50:28 CEST 1999
Article: 64512 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Russell Wallace <manorsof@iol.ie>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: how 'real' should a game be?
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:00:43 +0100
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timsim wrote:
> 
> Just thought I'd ask a question.
> 
> How real should an IF/adventure game be?  Would a player be annoyed if they
> typed 'drop bottle' and it broke?  Is it overkill to implement the sun
> rising and setting and periodic storms and even seasons?  What about the
> eating and drinking to survive?

Be careful about what you do in the name of realism.  Your last sentence
reminds me of one of the Infocom games, I think it was Enchanter:

Early in the game, you starve to death in about 20 minutes of game time
unless you eat.  You have no food with you.  (Apparently, not only did
the council of wizards send an apprentice to do an archmage's job, they
didn't even see fit to provide you with a packed lunch.)  Despite being
apparently free to wander around in a rather large countryside, there's
only one object in the world that's edible, which is a loaf of bread
inside a house.  (No other habitation, no edible plants, nothing.) 
Despite the bread being apparently fresh, the house owner is nowhere in
sight, and doesn't show up no matter how long you hang around, nor is
there anything else in the house.  Once you eat the bread, you never get
hungry again.

Yep, really realistic.

Drop, as has already been discussed, should in most circumstances be
treated as a synonym for "put down".  As for the other things on your
list: I'd say, do them only if they'll contribute something specific to
the game.  (Atmosphere is fine, doesn't have to be a puzzle.)  But I
wouldn't do them just for the sake of it.

> Along these same lines, to what level of detail should actions be
> implemented?  Should the player say open door or must they turn the knob
> then pull door?

In real life, I don't have to consciously think about such things, I
just decide to go through a door and the requisite knob-turning etc.
gets done automatically.  It should work the same way in games.

> Along THESE same lines, assuming you wanted to keep your game fairly clear
> of much humor, especially the in-jokes and references to the game or its
> author, would it be ok to use some humor or just avoid it altogether?
> Example: player types 'pick nose'.  Your game is a dark game with real dying
> etc.  Should you allow a reply such as 'Using the pinky of your right hand,
> you deftly extract that annoying booger."?  My gut instinct is to avoid the
> throw away jokes and cheap humor if your game's theme is on the darker side.

I agree, keep a consistent atmosphere.

-- 
"To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem."
Russell Wallace
manorsof@iol.ie


From garethr@cre.canon.co.uk Mon Sep 20 17:24:18 CEST 1999
Article: 64430 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Gareth Rees <garethr@cre.canon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ideas
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Steven Frew <steven.frew@cadspace.com> wrote:
> actions should be more atomic

More atomic than what?

The history of world-modelling in adventure games is one of extending
world models and finding new sets of atomic actions.  This is a result
of pressure from games which require complicated exceptions.

For example, "take" was originally an atomic action: if you can see it
and its portable you can take it.  In "Advent"-like games there's no
need for anything more complex -- a game might have one or two
exceptional situations (say, a bird that can be put into a cage), but
these can be handled satisfactorily with a bit of coding (say, when you
take the bird while carrying the cage you get rid of the bird and cage
objects and replace them with a bird-in-cage object).

Then there were games like "Zork" that wanted to have containers and
vehicles.  This is a pain to implement in the "take"-is-atomic world of
"Advent", so "take" was extended to understand the containment model.

Then there were games that wanted to have objects that were visible but
not touchable -- transparent containers, rooms separated by glass
windows, high shelves, trapdoors in the ceiling.  This is possible to
implement in the "Zork"-like world model: you make sure to trap actions
like "take" that involve touching things out of reach.  But it's a pain.
It's neater to extend "take" so that "take thing" becomes "touch thing
then take thing" -- then you only have to trap "touch" actions.  (This
is roughly what Inform does at the moment.  TADS' "WorldClass" is
similar.)

There's no end to the increased richness that you might demand of a
world model.  In the Inform system the programmer has to provide rules
saying what is touchable from where -- you could imagine a system which
modelled roughly the position and size of objects and could work out for
itself what was touchable from where.  Then you could imagine doing
static and dynamic simulation of mass, inertia, friction...

But increased richness of world model doesn't come cost-free.  In a
richer system, the game developer has to do a lot more work to specify
the physical characteristics of objects.  And there is a lot more
potential for bugs -- the more states the world has the smaller the
fraction that testing can cover.

-- 
Gareth Rees


From erkyrath@netcom.com Mon Sep 20 17:33:10 CEST 1999
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ideas
Date: 18 Sep 1999 16:38:03 GMT
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Steven Frew <steven.frew@cadspace.com> wrote:
> Also, actions should be more atomic. Imagine a room where there is a ruby on
> a podium:
> 
>> TAKE RUBY
> You reach for the ruby, but invisible high-density lasers shred your hand
> into a fleshy mist. You die through loss of blood.
> 
> Simple enough to do. Trap the take command, and kill the player. But what
> about:
> 
>> EAT RUBY
>> KISS RUBY
>> PUNCH RUBY
> 
> The same test would be needed in every function that requires physical
> contact with the ruby. A better method would be to make any such
> physical-contact function call a succession of sub-actions in order, like
> MoveTowards, ReachFor, Touch, Hold, then finally Take (or, in the other
> cases, Eat, or Kiss). So if touching an object causes a response, you would
> code such a response in the Touch action, and all other functions like Take,
> Eat, Kiss, etc would trigger that response through the Touch action, AND
> NOWHERE ELSE. Of course, unless an action in the chain generated an
> unexpected result, all output from actions other than the last would be
> hidden.

I once starting working on something like this. (No, never got anywhere.) 

But I didn't think of it at all as "simulationist", nor as anything
related to your other proposal. It's a way of organizing *abstract*
actions. Not in a general way, but in a customizable way. 

You could write a game that had different areas of rooms, for example, by
adding an additional layer of "within reach" range below the usual "in the
same room" range. With the appropriate default actions: "(walking over to
the bookcase)". Or, create a particular object where reaching for it
produces special consequences -- say, a jewel protected by a motion
detector.

You can't possibly write this as a general library infrastructure; every
game has different needs, and you'll always find an author who wants one
more level than you put in. You have to make something which is simple,
but extendable.

(There are whole games out there, unwritten, where smell and hearing have
as many levels of range-distinction as touch normally does. And, of
course, some games invent new senses.)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From dns361@merle.acns.nwu.edu Tue Sep 21 10:35:57 CEST 1999
Article: 64566 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Second April <dns361@merle.acns.nwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Aisle] Re: SPAG Review.
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:08:48 -0500
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On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, Paul O'Brian wrote:

> > But as the vast majority of IF that's been produced has, in some
> > measure, the structure of fiction, including a definite endpoint to the
> > story, IF that's more like a painting or a sculpture can never end as
> > satisfyingly. 
> 
> I wonder how much of the player's response is shaped by her expectations
> of what IF "ought to be." Duncan (or any of you), how do you think your
> reaction to Aisle would have differed had it been an entry in the IF art
> show? Or would it have differed at all?

Oh, considerably. Gone would be the quibbles about the inevitably awkward
ending, along with, probably, the objections to the confusing nature of
the story that emerges. 

But, with all due respect, I think such a context would measurably _lower_
my expectations. After all, good IF that approximates actual fiction has
to (a) interest me/make me think/entertain me and (b) tell a story (c)
with appropriate pacing (d) that comes to sort of conclusion, whereas IF
that doesn't try to reproduce the feeling of static fiction need satisfy
only the first criterion. After that, I can't really say that the work
didn't do what I was looking for, and I have no standards by which to
judge it. 

Why is that "lowering" expectations? Because we expect fiction-like IF to 
interest us or make us think as well, but we also impose more exacting
requirements associated with telling a good story. We do, you ask? Yes,
I'd venture to say we do, "we" being the readership of r*if in 1999. Folks
may speak nostalgically of Zork, but if someone churned out a no-story
treasure-hunt puzzle-fest today, the reviews would not exactly be glowing.

Anyway, back to the point: if I'd played Aisle with the expectation that
it be akin to an art show entrant, I wouldn't have said the same things.
What would I have said? Oh, I dunno. It might have been a little like my
review of Space Under the Window (pubweb.nwu.edu/~dns361/space.html, for
those who haven't seen it), which, I note upon rereading, was heavy on
description (of the game and the way playing it differs from playing most
IF) and light on judgment of the sort I usually give. As my impressions of
Aisle were distinctly different from my impressions of Space Under the
Window, however, it wouldn't have been all that similar. Would I have
judged Aisle based on expectations produced by playing Space Under the
Window? No. Would I have judged Aisle at all? Only to the extent I found
it interesting or thought-provoking (or, conversely, unpleasant or dull).
Arguably, that would mean a less interesting review, but maybe others
disagree.

None of this is good, bad, mediocre, or polka-dotted. It just kinda is.
And I've got to get ready for class.

Duncan Stevens
d-stevens@nwu.edu
773-728-9721

Love in the open hand, no thing but that,
Ungemmed, unhidden, wishing not to hurt,
As one should bring you cowslips in a hat
Swung from her hand, or apples in her skirt,
I bring you, calling out as children do,
"Look what I have!--And these are all for you."

--Edna St. Vincent Millay





From lpsmith@rice.edu Mon Sep 27 20:14:23 CEST 1999
Article: 64759 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: lpsmith@rice.edu (Lucian Paul Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] New Programmer - Help Needed
Date: 27 Sep 1999 16:56:40 GMT
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menichel@pixi.com wrote:
: Please help! :)

: I'm trying to implement a safe that requires a three number combination
: to open. I've got the combination part of the object to work. The
: problem I'm having is that I'd like the message, "You hear a soft
: 'click'" to be printed *after* the player dials in the last correct
: number. I tried using an "after" routine, but the program never seems to
: reach it.

The only way After routines get run is if they are called in the verb
routines.  As such:

: [ TurnDialSub;
:    dial_setting = second;
:    print_ret "You turn the dial to ", second, ".";
     AfterRoutines();
: ];

Or, if you want to supress the normal message (the standard use for the
'after' rubric):

: [ TurnDialSub;
:    dial_setting = second;
     if (AfterRoutines()==1) rtrue;
:    print_ret "You turn the dial to ", second, ".";
: ];

-Lucian Smith


From mollems@mindspring.com Fri Oct  1 17:39:15 CEST 1999
Article: 64915 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "M. Sean Molley" <mollems@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Parsers] Parser Development
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 02:32:49 -0400
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Greetings...

Gareth Rees wrote:

> The classic reference is "Compilers: Principles, Techniques and
> Tools" by Aho, Sethi and Ullman [...]

I would suggest a good book on programming language design to go along with
the "dragon book", if the parser you're planning on developing isn't going
to be for an existing language.  Following some basic principles of language
design can make your job as a compiler writer much easier, and it can make
your users' job thousands of times easier.

A nice reference on the subject is "Concepts of Programming Languages" by
Robert W. Sebesta.  I've got the first and second editions, dated 1989 and
1993, respectively.  There is probably a newer edition, but the ISBN of the
second edition is 0-8053-7130-3.

Not necessarily what I would have envisioned for my first post to the
newsgroup in, oh, five years or so; but parsers and compilers are near and
dear to my heart.  :)

Sean
----
M. Sean Molley | mollems@mindspring.com




From rri0189@attglobal.net Mon Oct  4 10:15:50 CEST 1999
Article: 64934 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:64934

Ross Presser wrote:
> 
> alt.distinguished.seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach).wrote.posted.offered:
> 
> >In article <8E51881C6pt101594@10.4.0.21>,
> >Ross Presser <ross_presser@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>alt.distinguished.seebs@plethora.net (Peter
> >>Seebach).wrote.posted.offered:
> >>>(Why?  Because, in some languages, there might be a single lowercase
> >>>letter which is equivalent to a pair of uppercase letters.  BTW, "might
> >>>be" means "there is one in German")
> >
> >>Most programming languages do not use other than A-Z in code.
> >
> >C, C++, Java, and everything on Plan 9 do.
> >
> >>vid min(it rg, chr **rgv);
> >
> >I should hope not, main returns int!  (rim shot)
> >
> >-s
> 
> *argh* OK, so make it an nt. :)
> 
> Yes, C, C++, Java use other than A-Z.  But they don't use accented chars,
> do they?  You mean that rg is a valid identifier?  Or even _rg ?

Classic PL/I in English includes "@#$" as members of the "alphabet",
which on non-Anglophone computers of the 60's gave various languages
three extra characters (such as German A- O- and U-umlaut).  Back then,
lower-case was used _only_ for special projects, because increasing the
character set slowed printers.  I believe ANSI PL/I cut the alphabet
back to 26 letters, though.

Java, if I remember rightly, can use the entire Unicode character set
for variable names, apart from the two dozen or so ASCII characters that
are used for other purposes in the language (i.e., + - * / = > < ; : , .
! and so on).

-- 
-John W. Kennedy
-rri0189@ibm.net
Compact is becoming contract
Man only earns and pays.  -- Charles Williams




From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Oct  5 16:25:10 CEST 1999
Article: 65051 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Contest Issues
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Mike Snyder <mikesnyder@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Some of what I consider standard does *not* seem to be implemented in the
> games I've played (look ___ should be synonymous with x ___ -- It's so
> annoying to look at something and nothing happens, but if you x it,
> something does... grrrr).

What game are you thinking of? Both the TADS and Inform standard libraries
declare that "look at obj", "examine obj", and "x obj" are all synonyms.
This can be overridden, of course, but I don't remember any game that
does.

> Who sets these standards?

Habit.

You say that a parser's task is to understand a player's intent, and
that's subtly wrong. A parser's task is to understand a player's
*expectation*. Players expect what they've seen (and used) before. 

The TADS and Inform parsers were designed by people who were used to
Infocom, so they're pretty close to that (but not identical). Now people
are used *to* the TADS and Inform parsers.

The current habits haven't changed much in the past five years, and I
don't foresee them changing much in the next five.

By the way, if you're writing a game in C, I recommend using my I/O
library, Glk. (If I've suggested it before, I apologize; can't remember.)
Writing a parser and writing and I/O system are different tasks, and
should be taken up separately.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From Lysseus@email.msn.com Thu Oct  7 14:50:39 CEST 1999
Article: 65130 of rec.arts.int-fiction
From: "Kevin Forchione" <Lysseus@email.msn.com>
References: <7te1bu$nlv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <fakemail-0510991843390001@marley.nettwerk.com> <7tgfpb$fpn$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <unJFncEE$GA.244@cpmsnbbsa02> <37FC1792.A1605C4A@tsn.cc> <fake-mail-0710990036030001@rich-53-0160.direct.ca>
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Since cakeName is a local variable it won't have any meaning outside of the
doPush() method. TADS will create the object assigning it a program
accessible name like <object#466>. You won't be able to reference this
object any other way outside of doPush().

That being the case, unless doPush() does more with the object, you could
simply use:

    x = new cupcakeItem;

instead of worrying about a numbering scheme for it.

Since the cupcake will meet all the basic requirements for an
indistinguishable object (i.e. same first class, not being worn or lit) you
might as well give the class a plural name and use isEquivalent. Then you
can make all the cakes you want and refer to them with "take cupcakes" and
"eat cupcake" without getting the "Which do you mean?" disambiguation
question.

Your code is then further complicated elsewhere, because you, the programmer
have no way of knowing the program-name of the object you will create
*before* you create it. This means that whereas with normal objects you
might code:

    if (cupcake.isIn(self)) etc.

You have to do something like:

    for (i = 1; i <= length(self.contents); ++i)
    {
        if (isclass(self.contents[i], cupcakeItem))
            etc.
    }

--Kevin
Neil K. <fake-mail@anti-spam.address> wrote in message
news:fake-mail-0710990036030001@rich-53-0160.direct.ca...
> Steven Jones <stevenj@tsn.cc> wrote:
>
> > VendMachButton: buttonitem
> > sdesc="red button"
> > adjective='red'
> > doPush(actor)={
> > cupcake := new fooditem;
> > "A cupcake appears in the slot.";
> > }
> > location=StaffRoom
> > ;
>
>  Ah. I see why this isn't going to work. Basically you want to create a
> new object each time, yes? Well you need a unique name for each object you
> create, and the simplest way to do that is to assign a number to each one.
> Here's an example solution, expanded a bit to make the machine a finite
> dispenser and not an infinite one.
>
>    maxCakes = 4
>    cakesDispensed = 0
>    doPush( actor ) =
>    {
>       self.cakesDispensed += 1;
>       if ( self.cakesDispensed > self.maxCakes )
>       {
>          "You hear a clunking noise. The machine appears to be out of
cakes. ";
>       }
>       else
>       {
>           local cakeName := 'cupcake' + cvtstr( self.cakesDispensed );
>           cakeName := new cupCakeItem;
>           cakeName.moveInto( machineSlot );
>           "A cupcake appears in the slot. ";
>        }
>    }
>
>  So this code will create cupcake1, cupcake2, cupcake3 and cupcake4. We
> make up the name for the item as a local (temporary) variable, and then
> move the newly created cupcake into a place accessible to the player. Note
> that we make the cupcake of class cupcakeItem - we assume this is a
> previously defined class. You don't want to make the cakes a generic
> fooditem, as they're not meant, out of the box, to be indistinguishable
> objects.
>
>  - Neil K.
>
> --
>  t e l a  computer consulting + design   *   Vancouver, BC, Canada
>       web: http://www.tela.bc.ca/tela/   *   email: tela @ tela.bc.ca




From erkyrath@netcom.com Sun Oct 10 23:44:30 CEST 1999
Article: 65190 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Regarding Glk .. Huh?
Date: 10 Oct 1999 16:58:31 GMT
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Adam J. Thornton <adam@princeton.edu> wrote:
> In article <939544236.355169629@news.detroit.mi.ameritech.net>,
> M. David Krauss  <Fader@frodo.com> wrote:
>>In fact, from what I've seen, it seems the Unix port of GLK is actually /Based/
>>on Curses, a very old, very stable, very flexible I/O library that works on
>>just about every single platform I can think of.
>>
>>It this a reinvintion of the wheel? And if so, um, why?
> 
> Lat I checked, curses limits you to text only.  GLK allows for considerably
> more elaborate I/O.

Actually, now that I've written the long reply, I should also add that Glk
allows for *simpler* I/O as well. 

This is not a mere curiosity. There's a Glk library for Unix that dumps
all its output into stdout, as a raw stream. Folks have connected that to
a networked MUD client -- producing a MUD robot that plays IF games on the
MUD. That's easy with a simple stream interface. It would be much trickier
if the interface was necessarily Curses.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Sun Oct 10 23:46:50 CEST 1999
Article: 65189 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Regarding Glk .. Huh?
Date: 10 Oct 1999 16:53:28 GMT
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M. David Krauss <Fader@frodo.com> wrote:
> Hello all. It's been a long time since I was last able to hang around here, so
> I think I've missed a few things. All apologies if I'm rehashing something old
> here, but I just found out about GLK, and um.. I don't get it.
> 
> I mean, IF is Not the first field to have a need for cross-platform text-based
> I/O. There are already very nice systems out there to accomplish this.
> 
> In fact, from what I've seen, it seems the Unix port of GLK is actually /Based/
> on Curses, a very old, very stable, very flexible I/O library that works on
> just about every single platform I can think of.

Okay. There are two purposes, one obvious and one obvious.

The obvious goal is to provide an I/O API (not library) which is
*abstract* enough to *not* specify a UI. 

You gave the example of Curses. That's a low-level, concrete API. It can
certainly be implemented on the Mac, for example. But a program that uses
Curses directly cannot possibly provide a Mac user interface, with Mac
scrollbars, proportional fonts, a resizeable window, Mac-style editing of
the input line, and so on. It will always look like a program running in a
fixed-width terminal window.

This is Unacceptable to me, after years of maintaining MaxZip and MaxTADS. 

Really, the logic went the other way around. I looked at MaxZip and
MaxTADS and thought, jeez, I've got nearly identical Mac UI code layered
on top of nearly platform-independent game engine. Why not formalize that
separation, and have *the same* Mac UI library layered on top of
*completely* platform-independent game engines?

To this point, I have succeeded. My first test program was Dungeon. I now
have a C program which can be compiled without *any* changes on Mac, Unix,
Windows, etc. Linked with the appropriate library, it acquires a
completely Macintosh-native UI, or Windows, or X, or Curses. It works.

Now the second goal, which is trickier, is to have a uniform dispatching
mechanism. This is meaningful only for game systems that use virtual
machines, not for C programs.

Consider Glulx, the VM I'm designing to complement Glk. The VM has no
built-in knowledge of windows, files, graphics, and so on. (Unlike the
Z-machine, which has opcodes specifically for manipulating windows,
drawing graphics, etc.) Instead, all I/O goes through a single @glk
opcode.

This means that I can add a new capability to Glk (for example, networking
for multiplayer games.) This does *not* require a change in the
interpreter. Someone has to implement that networking code for (say) the
Mac, in the Mac Glk library; and then rebuild the interpreter with the new
library. But it avoids the Z-machine trap of having to extend the engine
for every I/O change. There's a precise demarcation between the game, the
interpreter, and the I/O module.

(With shared libraries, in fact, you might be able to rig your system so
that the interpreter program doesn't change at all. Drop in the new shared
Glk library, and games can immediately make use of it.)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From adam@princeton.edu Tue Oct 12 09:55:43 CEST 1999
Article: 65216 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: adam@princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Rare Game for Sale
Date: 11 Oct 1999 17:27:46 GMT
Organization: We don't need no steenking organization!
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In article <7trppc$8ub$1@newsmaster.pathcom.com>,
Schmoo <schmoo@pathcom.com> wrote:
>
>I recently found a copy of Steve Meretsky's Infocom game LEATHER GODDESSES
>OF PHOBOS 2:  GAS PUMP GIRLS MEET THE PULSATING INCONVENIENCE FROM PLANET X,
>and I was wondering if anyone was interested in buying it from me.

Eeeagh!

>It's one of the last Infocom games ever made (1992), a text adventure with
>first-person perspective graphics (VGA) and support for AdLib, SoundBlaster,
>Roland MT-432, and LAPC1 (all digital & MIDI) sound.

Post-Activision.  This is not an Infocom game in the sense of "it doesn't
suck." 

>It's in the original packaging, factory shrink-wrapped (unopened), and in
>great condition (the box isn't crushed or anything like that).  It is the
>IBM version, on 3.5" disks.

Excellent.  Unopened is exactly the right state for it.  Whoever buys it,
keep it that way.

>I have not played it myself, but have found the following description of the
>game on http://www.csd.uwo.ca/Infocom/Articles/strategyplus.html
>
>*
>
>Leather Goddesses of Phobos 2: Gas Pump Girls Meet the Pulsating
>Inconvenience from Planet X! comes on ten high density diskettes and takes
>half an hour to install.

Which is longer than the game takes to play.

>The large size is a result of the use of fast
>high-resolution graphics and extensive digitized sound. All of this makes
>the gameplay very attractive. The game is a first person graphic adventure.
>The player sees the world from the character's point of view. Most graphic
>adventures are third person. First person graphics increase the player's
>emotional involvement, knowing that there death is impossible and that there
>are no cul-de-sacs adds further interest.

However, locking the machine solid is a very real possibility.  And dying
of ennui is too.

>The user interface is a deceptively simple intelligent cursor which
>indicates how the player may interact with the indicated object. The clear
>graphics and the quality of the animation make this very simple to use.
>Choosing to talk to a character changes the interface. The screen fills with
>a head shot and a column of icons for greeting, topics to discuss and
>interpersonal activities. The speech is well performed and the sound is high
>quality. The voices show neat characterization and I particularly enjoyed
>listening to Barth struggle with human language.

For about the first three minutes.

Alas, the game itself is wretched.  The two human paths are essentially
identical, and the alien path is just as boring.  It took me about two
hours to get through each of the paths, and that was with having to replay
75% of one of them because the game and my computer went toes-up.  I
honestly think I spent more time installing the game and replaying the bits
I'd already done (why save?  You can't get stuck!) than actually playing
the game through.

By all means, buy the game.  Just, for $DIETY's sake, *do not open the
shrinkwrap*.  Put it in a lead-lined box and keep it under someone else's
bed.  Pack the box with aged Gorgonzola and Limberger to make it stink
less.  

Adam
-- 
adam@princeton.edu 
"My eyes say their prayers to her / Sailors ring her bell / Like a moth
mistakes a light bulb / For the moon and goes to hell."  -- Tom Waits


From adam@princeton.edu Tue Oct 12 09:55:46 CEST 1999
Article: 65217 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: adam@princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Rare Game for Sale
Date: 11 Oct 1999 17:36:09 GMT
Organization: We don't need no steenking organization!
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For the record, if it wasn't obvious:

I am not trying to dissuade anyone from buying LGOP2.

I am just trying to make it really, really clear that if you're buying it,
you'd better be buying it as a collector's item, and not as a game, because
as a game, it blows big hairy dead decomposing goats.

Adam
-- 
adam@princeton.edu 
"My eyes say their prayers to her / Sailors ring her bell / Like a moth
mistakes a light bulb / For the moon and goes to hell."  -- Tom Waits


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Oct 13 15:32:02 CEST 1999
Article: 65260 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] AttemptToTakeObject and ##LetGo
Date: 13 Oct 1999 03:37:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Irene Callaci <icallaci@csupomona.edu> wrote:
> Inform 6.21, Library 6/9
> 
> Is there a reason why AttemptToTakeObject() doesn't set the
> ##LetGo action if the player has the same parent as the
> taken object? I have an After:LetGo routine on a supporter,
> which checks to see if the player has removed something
> from it, but the routine doesn't get called if the player
> is sitting or standing on the supporter. LetGo only gets
> called if the player is NOT on the supporter.

It's just a matter of policy. If an alarm is supposed to ring when the
jewels are removed from the cage, and you're inside the cage, then picking
up the jewels won't set off the alarm. (Of course you then have to add a
check during Exit to see if you're *carrying* the jewels out of the cage.)

You can change the policy if you want. The library doesn't rely on it.
Both ways are right, for different game situations.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From fake-mail@anti-spam.address Fri Oct 15 10:20:39 CEST 1999
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From: fake-mail@anti-spam.address (Neil K.)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Ancient history (was Re: [TADS] So you want to write a text adventure?)
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 "Kevin Forchione" <Lysseus@email.msn.com> wrote:

> A little walk down memory lane ... amusing how little things really change.
> And yet, change they do! You can find this at http://bang.dhs.org/raif/

 Indeed. The olden days. Back then, TADS was basically it. Inform did not
yet exist (at least not publicly - Graham may well have been working on it
in private), and few raif types used AGT. (AGT was seen as a PC thing.
Unsurprisingly it was more common on bulletin boards than in the
Internet-connected community)

 People discussed TADS as the current state of IF, and nearly all the
source code that was posted was in TADS. There was less publicly available
documentation, of course, as it was still a shareware system and not
freeware like it is today. (though I still have my TADS 1.2 release notes
and version 2.0 Cerlox-bound manual - the latter of which I still refer to
regularly)

 I don't think Russ Bryan actually offered his TADS course. He had to back
out for various reasons. Dave Baggett did end up posting a sample of the
source code for his Robert Abernathy NPC, but it was really just a big
switch statement. (actually, it might have been a big if-then tree - I
seem to recall that TADS 1 didn't support switch)

 - Neil (call me Gramps) K.

-- 
 t e l a  computer consulting + design   *   Vancouver, BC, Canada
      web: http://www.tela.bc.ca/tela/   *   email: tela @ tela.bc.ca


From mollems@mindspring.com Fri Oct 15 10:21:03 CEST 1999
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Neil K. (AKA Gramps) wrote:

>  Indeed. The olden days. Back then, TADS was basically it.

Not only was TADS "it", but it was light-years ahead of everything else that
was available.  Having mucked around with everything from BASIC to straight
Pascal to Pascal + AGT and a lot of other places along the way, finding TADS
was like a revelation.  (I bet Magnus could tell a few good tales about the
development of "Dunjin" here).

I gleefully forked over the shareware cost of TADS 1 and promptly banged out
600K of source code, which caused me to run afoul of the memory limitations
of TADS, at which point I seemed to run out of steam.  I keep telling myself
I'll get back to it at some point, however.

It's really been amazing to watch all of the incredible games and
development tools (including Inform and the renaissance of TADS) that have
sprung up over the years.  Quite astounding indeed to someone who only
bothered to learn about computers because they were what Infocom games ran
on.  ;)

It's also quite interesting to go back and look at all of those posts from
the early 1990's.  We did go on at length, didn't we.  :)

>  - Neil (call me Gramps) K.

Sean (call me Molley) M.





From mollems@mindspring.com Sat Oct 16 14:52:56 CEST 1999
Article: 65325 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "M. Sean Molley" <mollems@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ancient history
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:08:11 -0400
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
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Greetings...

Adam J. Thornton wrote:

> Let me say it here, in public, Sean, since you're actually *posting*
> here again: if you don't finish Challenge of the Czar, I will spank
> you with my copy of Avalon^WOnce and Future.

Hmm, that could hurt.  After all those years betatesting Avalon (I still
can't think of it by any other name) I do have quite a stack of
Avalon-related paraphernalia.  So I suppose the spanking threat is not
entirely without menace.

This just goes to show that computer games really do lead to violent
behavior, even (or perhaps especially) unfinished ones.

Sean




From fakemail@nospam.ca Sat Oct 16 14:53:07 CEST 1999
Article: 65333 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: fakemail@nospam.ca (Neil K.)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ancient history
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:13:08 -0700
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 "M. Sean Molley" <mollems@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I gleefully forked over the shareware cost of TADS 1 and promptly banged out
> 600K of source code, which caused me to run afoul of the memory limitations
> of TADS, at which point I seemed to run out of steam.  I keep telling myself
> I'll get back to it at some point, however.

 You should! I've reached 1.6 Mb of source and TADS is handling it with
aplomb. Plus you get all the parser refinements that Mike has added over
the years, and the ability to handle ISO-encoded text and HTML if you
like. The only difficulty is that I hit some sort of internal debugger
limit a few hundred K ago, and can't seem to figure out a workaround.

> It's also quite interesting to go back and look at all of those posts from
> the early 1990's.  We did go on at length, didn't we.  :)

 Heh. Don't remind me... :) It's sort of an exercise in humility to go
back and re-read one's early posts, I think.

 Also, welcome back, Molley!

 - Neil K.


From mollems@mindspring.com Sat Oct 16 14:53:39 CEST 1999
Article: 65343 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "M. Sean Molley" <mollems@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ancient history
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:47:54 -0400
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
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Greetings...

Gramps (Neil K.) wrote:

> Plus you get all the parser refinements that Mike has added over
> the years, and the ability to handle ISO-encoded text and HTML
> if you like.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that I haven't kept up with TADS: I re-registered
for Version 2 when it came out (which would have solved my memory problems,
had I ever gotten around to my game again) and have kept an eye on both TADS
and Inform as they've matured.  In fact, I use TADS in a summer program for
gifted and talented high school students that I teach in every summer.  The
HTML interpreter has made it a great deal easier to get kids interested in
programming adventure games, since now they can add pictures.

>  Heh. Don't remind me... :) It's sort of an exercise in humility to
> go back and re-read one's early posts, I think.

Amen to that.  I still can't believe some of the topics about which I went
on for pages and pages.  Just finding this newsgroup in the first place was
really exciting for me, though, as I'm sure it has been to so many others
over the years.

>  Also, welcome back, Molley!

Well, thanks, it's good to be back.  Now I have to catch up on all the great
IF that's been written since I stopped reading the newsgroups... about the
last thing I remember was the discussion of gender issues in "Jigsaw," if
that tells you anything.

Sean




From Lysseus@email.msn.com Sun Oct 17 16:52:50 CEST 1999
Article: 65264 of rec.arts.int-fiction
From: "Kevin Forchione" <Lysseus@email.msn.com>
Subject: [TADS] So you want to write a text adventure?
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:03:14 +0100
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:65264

A little walk down memory lane ... amusing how little things really change.
And yet, change they do! You can find this at http://bang.dhs.org/raif/

--Kevin
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: So you want to write a text adventure?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Subject: Re: So you want to write a text adventure?
From: librik@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David Librik)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 11:43:31 GMT
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
References: <1992Nov10.015921.24508@starbase.trincoll.edu>
Sender: nntp@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU (NNTP Poster)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Russell L. Bryan <rbryan@Mail.trincoll.edu> writes:

>With this in mind, I invite anyone interested in TADS to sign themselves
>up for a course I will be running in the near future.  The first lesson
>will be sent out two weeks from today, and new lessons will come every
>two weeks afterwards starting on January 15th.  While the course will
>begin with the basics of TADS programming, later lessons will aid you in
>first developing the concept for, and then actually creating a TADS
>adventure of your own.

(I've added rec.arts.int-fiction to the newsgroups line, since
 that's the newsgroup for people who write such games)

This seemed like as good a place as any to list Dave's Quick Guide To
Getting Started With TADS.  The key to learning how to write adventures
is to start writing one.  You will need the following:

(1) Get the manual for TADS.  Register the game, and get the manuals.
(2) Print out (on a good-quality printer): ADV.T, STD.T, and DITCH.T.
    ADV and DITCH run to many pages each -- find a free laser printer.
    Staple each packet together so they aren't lost and you can flip
    through them quickly; ADV and DITCH will require two packets unless
    you have a mondo stapler.
(3) Familiarize yourself with the basic ideas of the language.  Subtleties
    (syntax details, daemons, fuses) should be left for later -- just the
    idea of objects, inheritance, and how to print text; it helps if you
know
    C or Pascal.
(4) Start reading DITCH.T.  Look at the basic way items and rooms are
defined.
    The main way you write TADS code is to take off from something you
already
    have.
(5) Make a copy of DITCH.T, rip out all the later bits (the actual rooms and
    items), leaving the initialization code, the Me definition, all that
stuff.
    On this, start implementing your adventure.  Just rooms and items.
(6) Start adding more complicated things.  It really helps if you have
played
    Ditch Day Drifter; use DITCH as a reference for stuff.
(7) Use notify() rather than daemons and fuses, except for the few "global"
    events which are already present in Init.  notify() is easier.  DITCH
    gives plenty of examples of different uses for it -- find something like
    what you're looking for and see how he does it.
(8) Eventually it will be time to tear out the Ditch Day Drifter startup
code
    and basic definitions (the stuff you've been building on).  Copy in
STD.T
    into your file, at the beginning: by now you should have no problem
reading
    what's going on there.  Remove stuff you don't want (food daemon, sleep
    daemon, whatever).  Add your own stuff -- you've probably already
started
    putting initialization stuff in the Global object and in Init.
(9) When you want to start making significant changes to the basic
"adventure"
    behavior, you will have to change ADV.T.  Don't worry, that's exactly
    what it's there for.  When you make a change, though, document exactly
    what you're doing -- put comments at the beginning, and down in all the
    places you change.  CALL THIS NEW ADV.T BY A NEW NAME, SPECIFIC FOR YOUR
    ADVENTURE, by the way.  (An example: in my game, I wanted to add that
    you couldn't leave the room if there was an Armed Guard in it: he shoots
    you.  Since this is a basic modification of the Room object, I changed
    the Leave method to check for the Armed Guard.  This would obviously
apply
    only to my game.)  When a new ADV.T comes along you will need to
re-apply
    these changes to make a new special file; that's why you comment it
well.
(10) Finally: this adventure that you're writing will probably be a practice
     game.  It helps to have the basic idea already laid out, so you can
     concentrate on learning to code.  You can keep adding stuff -- improved
     Actor behaviors -- as you master TADS.  The only problem with this
     approach is that you spend all your energy on the "practice" game,
getting
     it really spiffy, and don't feel up to moving onto some Real Adventure
     Game Design and Implementation.  Yet your "practice" game, however
cool,
     isn't going to be that great -- simply because your original design
should
     be simple so you can code it.  (I started by implementing in TADS a
game
     I already had in BASIC).

There is this initial "bump" you have to overcome when you start with TADS.
I didn't get over it until I had the printouts in hand and could look in the
manual.  (Even so, I didn't understand most of what was going on in the
"initialization" part of a TADS game for quite a while).  The best thing
you can get if you are programming in TADS is examples of pre-written code
to do the kind of things you want.  That's why source code to working
games is so useful.  It might be cool to assemble a collection of cool
algorithms for doing things (basically clever hacks) -- suitably neutered
so they don't give away the game they come from.  I'd like to see the
circulating actor code for Robert Abernathy, for instance.  And somewhere
I have rather clever code to implement "sudden death" situations using
daemons, a gun with ammunition, support for objects to be "listening" for
things said by the player (when you SAY a certain phrase, for instance),
and an elevator.  None of it is any great shakes but it beats developing
it yourself.  I only wish I knew where it was.

If you keep a record of this "class," send me a copy.  You might consider
holding off until the semester starts again, though -- most students will
still
be on Christmas break on January 15th.

- David Librik
librik@cory.Berkeley.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Follow-Ups:
Robert Abernathy's Source Code (was Re: So you want ...)
From: dmb@case.ai.mit.edu (David Baggett)
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Next by Date: So you want to write a text adventure?
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From mollems@mindspring.com Sun Oct 17 16:52:59 CEST 1999
Article: 65294 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.axxsys.net!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail
From: "M. Sean Molley" <mollems@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Ancient history
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 23:05:31 -0400
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <7u65ca$m6p$1@nntp3.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <ujhQSMXF$GA.310@cpmsnbbsa02> <fake-mail-1410990249590001@rich-53-0274.direct.ca>
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Neil K. (AKA Gramps) wrote:

>  Indeed. The olden days. Back then, TADS was basically it.

Not only was TADS "it", but it was light-years ahead of everything else that
was available.  Having mucked around with everything from BASIC to straight
Pascal to Pascal + AGT and a lot of other places along the way, finding TADS
was like a revelation.  (I bet Magnus could tell a few good tales about the
development of "Dunjin" here).

I gleefully forked over the shareware cost of TADS 1 and promptly banged out
600K of source code, which caused me to run afoul of the memory limitations
of TADS, at which point I seemed to run out of steam.  I keep telling myself
I'll get back to it at some point, however.

It's really been amazing to watch all of the incredible games and
development tools (including Inform and the renaissance of TADS) that have
sprung up over the years.  Quite astounding indeed to someone who only
bothered to learn about computers because they were what Infocom games ran
on.  ;)

It's also quite interesting to go back and look at all of those posts from
the early 1990's.  We did go on at length, didn't we.  :)

>  - Neil (call me Gramps) K.

Sean (call me Molley) M.





From wild_dj@mit.edu Wed Oct 20 14:49:01 CEST 1999
Article: 65533 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!wild_dj
From: wild_dj@mit.edu (Jake Wildstrom)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: My blind jump into linux
Date: 20 Oct 1999 12:41:27 GMT
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
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Message-ID: <7ukd9n$qrk@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
References: <6YEKOM3bXh5v+12y4bazmJpd=9Ap@4ax.com> <7ue3pm$ie4$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <5k0fu7.91f.ln@127.0.0.1> <7ujpg6$l7m$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: church-of-briantology.mit.edu
Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:65533

In article <7ujpg6$l7m$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Evin Robertson  <nitfol@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Nedit is non-Free and Motifugly.  I'm more proficient in ed than vi,
>so I'm safe when more than everything else dies.

For your editing pleasure, a friend of mine wrote xed. Yes, it's an X interface
to ed. Isn't that obscene? TO quote Chris Laas' "press release":

---

XED!
They said it couldn't be done.
They said it shouldn't be done.
So I went and did it.

XED!
Written in 100% Pure Tcl/Tk!
The most minimalist editor, written in the most bloated language!
Runs on Unices, Windows, and Macs, AND as a Web browser applet!

XED!
Packs standard ED, PLUS an intuitive, powerful GUI, PLUS several extensions
into less than one-fifth the number of lines of code!  (It's even
smaller than the compiled binary of ED!)
And, as EVERYONE knows, smaller means faster, so this is without doubt the
most efficient ED in existence!  See for yourself:
% ls -l ed xed
-rwxr-xr-x   1 golem    root        67860 Jul 22 15:36 ed
-rwxr-xr-x   1 golem    101         51499 Jul 22 09:53 xed
% wc xed
   1962    7847   51499 xed
% wc ed-0.2/*.[ch] | tail -1
  11192   44379  323584 total
There's no arguing with that!

XED!
XED!  Whitens and brightens teeth!
XED!  Part of a complete breakfast!
XED!  Recommended by 4 out of 5 crufty curmudgeons!

XED!
Try it out!  [Download from http://www.mit.edu/~golem/code.html .]
Get FREE Geek Points (redeemable for exclusive geek prizes) on every
invocation!  500,000 Geek Points gets you a FREE 110 baud teletype
with integrated X display!
Get *Extra Super Elite* Geek Points for submitting bug reports!


XED FAQs:

* Why?  Why, God, why?

If you have to ask, you will NEVER understand.  Despair.

* Why did you write it in Tcl/Tk?  You're a sick freak!

Why did you ask if you already knew the answer?

* I'm a grumpy cynic with no sense of humor, and it looks like you're having
  fun.  That annoys me.  Is it OK if I take out my frustrations on you?

Go away and leave me alone.

* Did you know that there already is a program called xed?  You'd better
  change your program's name or the sun will collapse into a black hole!

Does that so-called xed implement the full ED interface?  With a polished
X GUI?  I think not!  A mere imposter, not worthy of my consideration.

* Gee, mister, you rock!  How can I grow up to be just like you?

Just do what I did:  study science and math, eat your vegetables,
and ritually sacrifice a squirrel to C'thulhu every day.


--Chris

-- 
*No one* lived a completely blameless life.  It might just be
possible, by lying very still in a cellar somewhere, to get through a
day without committing a crime.  But only just.  And even then, you
were probably guilty of loitering.
	-- Terry Pratchett, "Feet of Clay"
______________________________________________________________________
Chris Laas: KB1DEM \ golem@mit.edu (617)225-6522 \ EC, Hayden 507, MIT

---

+--First Church of Briantology--Order of the Holy Quaternion--+
| A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into         |
| theorems.              -Paul Erdos                          |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|                       Jake Wildstrom                        |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+


From neilc@norwich.edu Wed Oct 20 17:47:04 CEST 1999
Article: 65535 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!newsin.iconnet.net!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail
From: Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] Doors and directions
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:32:08 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:65535

In article <g12P3.7921$G6.703048@news0.telusplanet.net>, "Don Rae"
<gameman69@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Door objects are a pain to deal with in Inform, mainly because
> for some reason, Inform doesn't generate a "go" directive every
> time someone types a plain direction, ie.  north, n, southwest,
> sw.  I've found it difficult to override the library's default
> responses for trapping directions without modifying the library,
> which I don't care to do - this will not solve my problem
> satisfactorily.

I'm gonna ramble a bit, so the solution, which is simple, is
marked with --**-- below, in case you wanna get right to it.

Yes, I find this very annoying as well. Assuming you have a door
that leads north, the following actions possible:

 >ENTER DOOR
 [ action Enter with noun "door" ]
 [ action Go with noun "door" -- from <<>> statement ]

or

 >N
 [ action Go with noun "north wall" ]

The GoSub action is cleverly written to handle both cases, but
you can see that they are not the same, and one of them ignores
the crucial idea that the door is being walked through.
Consequently, door intercepting code has needed to be spread out
into other objects.

I tried many different solutions to this, including some gross
hacks, and I even posted some of them. But don't bother to look
them up. Based on code submitted by Gareth Rees, I had a
breakthrough.

--**--

Add the following react_before routine to the "door" object:

  react_before [;
    Go:
      if (noun in compass && noun.door_dir == self.door_dir())
	   <<Enter self>>;
  ],

--**--

In effect, the door detects players walking through it, and
re-routes the action sequence away from the hideous Go n_obj.

So now you get the following possibilities:

 >ENTER DOOR
 [ action Enter with noun "door" ]
 [ action Go with noun "door" -- from <<>> statement ]

or

 >N
 [ action Go with noun "north wall" ]
 [ action Enter with noun "door" -- from <<>> statement ]
 [ action Go with noun "door" -- from <<>> statement ]

A door with this react_before routine will always have its before
routine called with action set to ##Enter, and noun set to self.
It therefore becomes much easier to deal with, and especially,
code for the door can be nicely _in_th_door_.

A remaining problem is that, even if the player types "ENTER DOOR",
he/she is still conceptually going north, which is not reflected
in the sequence of actions. In other words, any object that
wishes to interfere with the character going north in such a room
will have to intercept the "Enter door" action, not the "Go
n_obj" action.

--**--

So you could change your before routine to:

 before [
   Open:
     "Only Merlin has enough magic power to open the portal.";
   Enter:
     if (self hasnt general) "Merlin has not yet opened the
       portal for you, so you can't enter it.";
 ],

to get the effect you want.

--**--

--
Neil Cerutti (neilc@norwich.edu)


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


From baskingshark@my-deja.com Tue Oct 26 10:27:32 CEST 1999
Article: 65742 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail
From: Steve Evans <baskingshark@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.int-fiction,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Announce] DOS versions of Topologika games
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 05:30:01 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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In article <1077.967T788T11863033ghira@mistral.co.uk>,
  "Adam Atkinson" <ghira@mistral.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Are you using the same compiler for these as for the Phoenix games
> >that were released as z-code some time ago, or are they written in
> >a different language?
>
> Same compiler. The earlier Phoenix games were never released by
> Topologia, so their permission wasn't needed, just that of the
> authors.
>

I was wondering if the compiler can also be used for Acornsoft versions
of the Phoenix games. The reason I ask is that I've noticed a BBC disk
image of Rod Underwood's Quondam floating around on the net (whether
this is with Rod's and/or Acornsoft's blessing I couldn't say).

But if the source for Quondam is no longer available perhaps the z-code
could be generated from the Acornsoft disk (assuming, of course, that
Rod is agreeable and there are no issues with the Acornsoft copyright).

Cheers,

Steve Evans


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Oct 28 16:13:50 CEST 1999
Article: 65871 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail
From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: New, simple system for writing IF.
Date: 27 Oct 1999 20:58:20 GMT
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Mike Snyder <mikesnyder@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Magnus Olsson <mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote in message
> news:7v75rt$n21$1@bartlet.df.lth.se...
> 
>> And we must keep in mind that there is no such thing as one monolithic
>> software market; rather there are different markets for different
>> sorts of software.
> 
>> And what's important is that in *this* particular market - that for
>> text adventure game creation systems - the buyers are pretty darn
>> spoiled: not only are they allowed to fully test the major development
>> systems before committing to them, these systems (Inform, TADS, Hugo,
>> etc) are free.
> 
> Absolutely. What's unfortunate though is the almost non-existent possibility
> that a small independent developer can create, sell, and recoup even a
> fraction of the cost/time involved in doing so. Across all markets (as far
> as I can tell) is an expectation (not a hope, but an expectaction) of
> freeware products as an alternative to commercial ones. Anything you want is
> probably available from a freeware developer, and at least one is likely to
> be very very good. The message this sends to shareware developers is "don't
> waste your time." Why charge a fee when somebody else will just release a
> better product at no charge?

I don't agree with your assessment of the situation -- but it's a subtle
disagreement. So I'll probably do a lousy job of explaining it. :-)

First, the listening audience must remember that we're talking about game
development systems, not games. I'm quite willing to look at, and possibly
buy, shareware/commercial text games. (A demo certainly helps, of course.)
However, when someone announces Yet Another Non-Free Text Game Development
System, I don't even bother going to look at the web page. 

So: I agree with the objective statement: it's damn-near impossible for
anyone to create a text adventure development system, and recoup the money
(and time, which equals money) which went into it. 

Is this state of affairs, as you say, "unfortunate"?

That's really hard to judge; but I don't think so.

If you want to quit your job and make a living off of IF development
tools, too bad; you can't. I guess that could be viewed as unfortunate.
But it's well-known that the world does not pay salaries commensurate with
how much you enjoy doing things. 

Basically, I object to categorizing IF authors as "spoiled", as if they
(we!) are caught in some unhealthy, short-sighted behavior pattern. This
is an area where the open-source development model is *working*. We've got
lots of tools, and lots of games, and lots of contributed work (library
modules, new interpreters, etc.) 

You say:

> The message this sends to shareware developers is "don't waste your
> time."

But no. The message that we're sending *to text adventure enthusiasts* is
"Your work will be more valuable if you don't ask money for it." (And even
more so if you structure it in an open way: modularization, documented
interfaces, readable source code.) 

To divide the world up into shareware developers and freeware developers,
is to falsely imply that something is lost by excluding the former.
*People* contribute. Anyone who really wants to contribute will find a way
to. 

(Reading back, it sounds like I'm berating you for berating *us*. I
apologize; that's not how I meant this post to go.)

> *This*, being a small niche market where several great, free systems are
> already available, popular, and widely ported. It's a turn-off, as you said,
> because we're spoiled. If it's not free, we don't need it, and if it's not
> available, somebody will do it and make it free. Is this a market? No, it's
> more of a "community" and I'm not saying anything is wrong with that.

Obviously, I think there's *nothing* wrong with it, not even an implied
"however". :-)

It *is* a market. It's an economy of available time and created wealth --
the latter in the form of games. 

As you noted, available time is a critical resource! A contribution that
makes life easier for many people is more valuable than one which makes
life easier for a few. This is why I've put in some much time writing
specifications, documentation, and available source code.

> However, no matter what "market" covers a particular "freeware" system I
> might be using, it's unlikely that I'd go about discouraging a person who
> has created a system to sell.

What a great sentence! It provides me with a lovely opportunity for
response, for which I thank you. :-)

I would encourage any *person who has created a system to sell*.

But I would not encourage a person who has created a system *to sell it*.
You see the distinction in the invisible parentheses. I would instead
encourage them to upload it, without monetary restriction.

I agree with the others here: TADS was going downhill as long as it was
shareware. Now it is freeware and gaining strength; and the next version
will have a documented virtual machine and open library source. Nobody
ever told Mike Roberts to shut up and get out of IF. He's still here; only
the word "shareware" has been removed from TADS.

I see six or eight soapboxes have sprouted under my feet. Enough out of
me.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From neild@grace.acm.rpi.edu Thu Oct 28 16:15:28 CEST 1999
Article: 65898 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: neild@grace.acm.rpi.edu (Damien Neil)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: New, simple system for writing IF.
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:65898

On Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:14:46 -0700, Mike Snyder <mikesnyder@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>I wouldn't quit my job to earn a living as an IF tool developer, but I want
>to believe that there *are* markets out there where shareware can succeed.

There are such markets, but I don't think you are standing in one now.
Different communities have different values.

Shareware Unix software, for example, isn't likely to get you anywhere.
A modern Unix system (even a commercial one, such as Solaris) is built
upon several decades of freely available work.  When using a system
where the C compiler, the text editors, the windowing environment, and
perhaps even the kernel are all freely available with source code,
the thought of paying money for anything less significant feels wrong.
The author may feel entitled to money for his work -- but if I'm going
to give money to people because they write something useful to me,
surely the gcc developers (for example) should come first?  After all,
gcc is far more useful than any likely shareware utility.

The Windows world is a different community.  (Partially, I suspect,
because the most common development tools are all commercial, creating
the perfectly natural desire for authors to recoup their costs.)  I've
shelled out money for WinZip.  I would never pay for a Unix equivalent.

The IF community is very cross-platform, but the attitudes more reflect
that of the Unix world.  Several excellent development systems already
exist; why would anyone want to pay money for a new one?  A new one
which lacks cross-platform support, no less.  Meaning that games
written in it will never be able to garner accolades from many
significant members of the community.  The lack of source code is
also quite damning -- look at the number of people who have contributed
to Inform for an idea of what freely-available source gains you.

Attitudes towards shareware games, as opposed to development systems,
are somewhat different.  A game is a single thing; you get it, you
play it, you move on.  A development system is a relationship that
will stay with you for years.

>I think something *would* be lost in a world where "freeware" and
>"commercial" are the only alternatives. You've lost the possibility that the
>little guy can become a big guy, and you've removed one alternative from the
>hypothetical American Dream. I probably sound entirely materialistic, but
>I'm really not. I just like to hope that my future hasn't been promised to
>the lady from accounting that hands me a direct-deposit slip every Tuesday.

"Shareware" software IS "commercial" software.  It's not produced by a big
company, but that doesn't make it any less commercial.

There's still plenty of room for commercial software in the world.

>I *really* didn't mean to come across as berating either. Mainly I'm just
>venting at an ever-shrinking shareware market.

If the shareware market is shrinking, I suspect it is because standards
for software are rising.  It's getting very hard for a program written
by a single person in his spare time to compete with the level of
quality of other packages.  It's virtually impossible for such a program
to compete with a free program: a shareware program is limited by developer
salaries, while a free program draws little bits of time from many
developers.

Personally, I can see no reason to be unhappy that the supply of high-
quality free software is increasing.  It makes my life better.  Sure,
it means I probably can't make a living by sitting in a hole in the
ground separate from all human contact and writing little programs.
If that appealed to me, however, I'd go become a consultant doing
small programming projects.  Similar lifestyle, not much more human
contact (if you don't want it), much better pay.

>I've contributed to my passions as well. I've written FAQ's and free add-ons
>and instructions and spent many hours answering newbie questions just to
>help out (in particular, for the Dink Smallwood CRPG). This was for the
>purpose of helping in something I enjoy, not for profit. I understand that
>the IF community is populated by such people. I just (sorry) *still* can't
>bring myself to discourage somebody who *does* hope to make a profit.

The thing is, I don't think anyone is going to make a profit selling
IF development environments.  The competition is better and costs less.
Better than anyone hoping to do so become discouraged before they waste
time and energy on it.

Feel free to prove me wrong by selling an IF dev environment and making
money, of course.  I'm not an all-knowing oracle.  But I'd be dishonest
to encourage anyone to try to make a profit this way.

                        - Damien


From im@cs.york.ac.uk Wed Nov  3 15:40:51 CET 1999
Article: 66123 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Iain Merrick <im@cs.york.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [TADS] TADS Top 40  (was Re: download statistics updated to include 3rd quarter of 1999
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 12:26:29 +0000
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:66123

Magnus Olsson wrote:

> Iain Merrick  <im@cs.york.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Magnus Olsson wrote:
> >
> > > I'm glad to see that old Zebulon's still doing well...
> >
> > So, when are you going to release the sequel?
> >
> > I bet it'll be fantastic, considering the amount of time you've spent
> > crafting it. I really can't wait!
> 
> Do I sense a hint of irony here? :-)

Well... a tad, perhaps.

> For the story fo the sequel, see
> 
> http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon/owngames/zebsequel.html

Ah. I'd guessed that would be what happened, but I couldn't resist the
opportunity for a sly dig. Seriously, though -- just writing the
original _Uncle Zebulon's Will_ obviously took hell of a lot of work,
and it's much appreciated.

I suspect there are rather a lot of people like me in this newsgroup,
who've started writing half-a-dozen games but haven't finished a single
one. But we'll get there in the end! Some of us, at any rate. And
wonderful little games like Zebulon are a great motivation to continue.

(Wonderful _big_ games like Curses, on the other hand, are slightly
depressing, being that much harder to live up to...)

-- 
Iain Merrick
im@cs.york.ac.uk


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Wed Nov  3 23:15:52 CET 1999
Article: 66152 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [TADS] TADS Top 40  (was Re: download statistics updated to include 3rd quarter of 1999
Date: 3 Nov 1999 16:53:12 +0100
Organization: Chronically disorganized
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:66152

In article <7vnfhv$rfp$1@joe.rice.edu>,
Lucian Paul Smith <lpsmith@rice.edu> wrote:
>Iain Merrick (im@cs.york.ac.uk) wrote:
>: Magnus Olsson wrote:
>
>: > Kevin Forchione wrote:
>: >
>: > >17.    426 if-archive/games/tads/zebulon2.zip
>: > 
>: > I'm glad to see that old Zebulon's still doing well...
>
>: So, when are you going to release the sequel?
>
>
>Did you miss it?  Aayela, from the '96 competition:
>
>ftp://ftp.gmd.de/if-archive/games/competition96/aayela/
>
>Stylistically very very different, but references here and there indicate
>that the game is at least set in the land the Zebulon protagonist went to,
>if not a snippet of the future adventures of the protagonist himself.

Interesting...

Actually, I didn't write "Aayela" as a sequel to "Zebulon". The
protagonist is definitely not the same person. I didn't have any
conscious intention of setting it in the same world - or even the same
universe - as "Zebulon", but I didn't consciously make it a different
world either, so when I come to think of it, it may very well be the
same world, or at least a related one.

I don't think I'm the kind of author who has a need to unify all his
worlds into a consistent universe (like Asimov tried to do with his
Robot and Foundation worlds). But of course there'll be conceptual
connections.

And of course we all know that the fictional world is just a construct
by the reader, and authorial intention doesn't count, so feel free to
ignore my comments above if you like :-).


-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Thu Nov  4 21:45:23 CET 1999
Article: 66191 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: The Zebulon/Aayela connection (was: [TADS] TADS Top 40  (was Re: download statistics updated to include 3rd quarter of 1999)
Date: 4 Nov 1999 15:35:46 +0100
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In article <7vpr3h$hqa$1@joe.rice.edu>,
Lucian Paul Smith <lpsmith@rice.edu> wrote:
>Magnus Olsson (mol@bartlet.df.lth.se) wrote:
>: Actually, I didn't write "Aayela" as a sequel to "Zebulon". The
>: protagonist is definitely not the same person. I didn't have any
>: conscious intention of setting it in the same world - or even the same
>: universe - as "Zebulon", but I didn't consciously make it a different
>: world either, so when I come to think of it, it may very well be the
>: same world, or at least a related one.

(Quotes from "Aayela" and "Zebulon", both mentioning Cyr-Dhool, snipped)

>It is not too much of a stretch to believe that the 'battle of Cyr-Dhool'
>was somehow related to Zebulon's nephew's quest to waken the city.  It's a
>bit more of a stretch, but perhaps not too large of one, to think that
>maybe as a reward, the nephew was knighted by King Dargon, setting the
>stage for Aayela.
>
>
>Forgot you put that in there, did you? ;-)

You got me there :-). Yes, I had forgotten, and I suppose that shows
how much importance I attributed to this when I wrote it...

I take back one of my statements above: I obviously had a conscious
intention of setting the games in the same universe. But IIRC it
was limited to that - apart from the mention of Cyr-Dhool, the games
have nothing to do with each other, and could as well ahve been
set in different worlds. And, no, the protagonist of "Zebulon" is not
the same as the protagonist of "Aayela". 



-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU Sun Nov  7 20:27:03 CET 1999
Article: 66279 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!boulder!ucsu.Colorado.EDU!obrian
From: Paul O'Brian <obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Download.com
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:21:27 -0700
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder
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On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Adam Cadre wrote:

> I wrote:
> > I've submitted all three of my games to download.com, and the only
> > one accepted was Varicella.
> 
> Magnus Olsson asked:
> > Did they give any reasons?
> 
> Just that the first two "weren't what they were looking for" or
> "weren't appropriate for the site."

This doesn't surprise me much. I-0 could quickly be perceived as
salacious by some, and the prominence of the word "fuck" in the first
scene of Photopia makes it an easy target as well. Varicella, while much
nastier than either of the other games, isn't as obviously
"standards-breaking" in the first five minutes of play. 

-- 
Paul O'Brian  obrian@colorado.edu  http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
"Sometimes even music cannot substitute for tears."
                                               -- Paul Simon





From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Tue Nov  9 13:20:02 CET 1999
Article: 66345 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:39:20 +0000
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In article <uock8nu41e4.fsf@evelake.pdl.cs.cmu.edu>, Nat Lanza
<URL:mailto:magus@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
> I'm also not entirely sure why you decided to add the condescending
> and insulting remark about "obsession with system over content". I
> haven't really seen any indication that this is in fact true.

Oddly, I think I agree with this remark, though in a slightly
different way.  Something like 50 adventure design systems have
been created since 1984 or so, and 3 or perhaps 4 are widely
used today: these things are not easy to get going.  One major
reason why many systems fall by the way-side is that their
authors spend all of their effort on syntax and neat programming,
being (often) interested more in the software engineering than
in the actual problem to be solved -- which, I suggest, is the
framework of rules governing the model world, and how it can be
made alterable by the player.  A good world model with a so-so
syntax for writing code (e.g. Inform, I think) is probably a lot
more viable than a sparse and inflexible world model with a
beautifully engineered compiler (there are many examples of such
systems in the silicon hell of ftp.gmd.de).

I went through the manuals and example code for every existing
design language when writing the "IF history" appendix to the
Inform manual, and another point which vividly came home to me
was that about three-quarters of design systems are written with
the intention that "designers don't need to learn to program".
Phrases like "a descriptive language, not a programming language"
recur.  But no such language has prospered since the early days
of AGT (and in fact more recent versions of AGT have been quite
sophisticated).

Again, I think this is because no adequate world model for IF
can be anything other than complex.  I certainly think that the
first thing anyone making a new design system needs to do is
to think long and hard about the world model, plan it all out on
paper, work out what the attractions and shortcomings of the
best models are (e.g. Dave's "WorldClass" model)... and only
last of all work out a programming syntax or a windowed front
end, which is the easy bit.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From Lysseus@email.msn.com Tue Nov  9 13:27:55 CET 1999
Article: 66352 of rec.arts.int-fiction
From: "Kevin Forchione" <Lysseus@email.msn.com>
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Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
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Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ant080920c72M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk...
> Again, I think this is because no adequate world model for IF
> can be anything other than complex.

You've hit the nail on the head. Work on the world model, object
relationships and interactions, is of chiefest interest for anyone hoping to
expand the boundaries of IF.

>I certainly think that the
> first thing anyone making a new design system needs to do is
> to think long and hard about the world model, plan it all out on
> paper, work out what the attractions and shortcomings of the
> best models are (e.g. Dave's "WorldClass" model)... and only
> last of all work out a programming syntax or a windowed front
> end, which is the easy bit.

A comparative study of these systems is extremely rewarding. My work in TADS
has benefitted immensely from my knowledge of Inform and my brief delvings
into WorldClass. What interests me most is where the world model is heading?
How can it be enhanced? A discussion on this would be greatly appreciated.

With today's faster machines and larger memory capacities we are at present
not substantially further along than we were 5 years ago... Part of the
problem is, as you point out, that it requires a *great* deal of planning in
the design of a *new* model. It is far, far easier to tweak the old systems.
And there is risk. Risk that countless hours invested in a new approach may
prove fruitless -- either through some fatal flaw creeping into the work, or
through an inability to rouse interest in the fledgling system.

Our two most popular systems: TADS and Inform, both owe much of their
existences to the original games which they spawned or from which they were
derived (I'm not completely sure of the chicken-egg relationship). Needless
to say they developed in an evolving manner, bearing the evidence of
vestigal algorithms and subroutines no longer needed or used. Backward
compatibility has slowed progress, hampered the implementation of new ideas,
even while it permitted the establishment and growth of a strong user base.

People have talked about developing a more "physics"-oriented world model
for years. But physical rules don't integrate easily into the
exception-ridden world of IF: the rules of which must be more metaphysical
in nature: handling exceptions as part of the process, not in spite of it.
Far more important than simplicity is the elegance and expressiveness of the
code involved: the power of calculus over algebra, to describe the complex
interplay of the model world.

A word-processor facilites production... But without knowledge of rhythm and
rhyme I cannot hope to write sonnets. Without knowledge of the complex
interplay of scene and sequel, character and conflict, dialogue and
narrative, I cannot hope to write stories that grip the audience, suspending
disbelief, and ushering in new worlds.

Let's not be afraid of complexity or pander to simplicity for its own sake,
but expect more from ourselves and be pleasantly surprised.

--Kevin




From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Nov  9 13:29:10 CET 1999
Article: 66357 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
Date: 8 Nov 1999 16:22:58 GMT
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Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Again, I think this is because no adequate world model for IF
> can be anything other than complex.  I certainly think that the
> first thing anyone making a new design system needs to do is
> to think long and hard about the world model, plan it all out on
> paper, work out what the attractions and shortcomings of the
> best models are (e.g. Dave's "WorldClass" model)... and only
> last of all work out a programming syntax or a windowed front
> end, which is the easy bit.

I agree with this, but I want to expand on that last bit.

One of the problems with writing an entirely new IF system is that you're
reinventing not only the wheel, but the chassis, the motor, the hull
design, and the dashboard as well.

Of *course* all of those regions can be improved. But we have a few
established and experimental solutions for all of them. People these days
tend to look and say, "Could you have used an existing I/O layer? *Or* an
existing VM? Or an existing library, or language, or compiler? Does the
experimental approach you're suggesting really require redoing every
single one of those?"

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Tue Nov  9 13:29:17 CET 1999
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:14:52 +0000
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In article <806td2$6s0$2@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>, Andrew Plotkin
<URL:mailto:erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:
> I agree with this, but I want to expand on that last bit.
> 
> One of the problems with writing an entirely new IF system is that you're
> reinventing not only the wheel, but the chassis, the motor, the hull
> design, and the dashboard as well.

Indeed!  Note that Inform 1 in 1993 compiled code for an existing
virtual machine, not for a newly-created one.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From okblacke@my-deja.com Tue Nov  9 13:30:42 CET 1999
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From: okblacke@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 23:07:32 GMT
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In article <38264fc6_3@dilbert.ic.sunysb.edu>,
  David Samuel Myers <dmyers@sparky.ic.sunysb.edu> wrote:
> Continuing in line with what Mike Snyder said ---
>
> I applaud the SUDSers for creating an IDE. I think it's pretty short
> sighted of people to say b-b-but it's not one of the BIG languages, so
it
> DOESN'T MATTER (!!?!?!?!!), which if I read it correctly seems to be a
> sentiment that some people have had. I realize that there are a
spectrum
> of opinions out there, and that this probably in no way represents the
sum
> total of any single person's feelings about SUDS, but you can see it
> coming through in some of the posts.

I think you have read it incorrectly.  There are doubtless some of us
who blanch--or yawn--at the thought of learning yet another adventure
language. But the sentiment was that really, that was all this was: yet
another adventure language, in a well-done IDE.

> Ok, well, the same thing has happened before. The move from command
line
> compilers to IDEs was not universally or immediately embraced in the
> programming community. The big innovators in this arena weren't C
people.
> It was Pascal that really took the lead.

And then BASIC, when VB first emerged. But the two situations aren't
quite analogous. The original Borland Pascal IDE increased productivity
by contracting the multi-step edit/save/compile/link/load process, and
VB increased productivity by encapsulating huge amounts of IDE code into
libraries which could be accessed dynamically to (in essence) create
code.

I actually use the old TP/BP environment as my IDE and, in any event, IF
never approaches (as far as I've seen) the level of complexity (in terms
of compilation) that TP/BP IDE excelled at simplifying.

IF, text or graphical, doesn't have the same heavy reliance on GUI calls
as other programs.  Text IF doesn't need any such calls, and most of
the work in a GUI based IF would be in the artwork (and, one presumes,
hiding the hot spots) which is not something greatly assisted by a
VB-like GUI painter.

What I'm getting at is that you can't just shoehorn traditional
programming advancements into IF and expect to get the same overall
gains.

If you want to get oohs-and-ahs out of people who *know* what they're
doing, you need to make progress in an IF-specific area:

* General parsing
* Dialogue parsing
* Artificial intelligence
* Handling combinatorial explosion
* Physics/world modelling
* Emotional modeling

I believe that if anyone came up with a significant improvement in any
of these areas, this improvement would sell the system, regardless of
whether it paid obeisance to Inform or TADS.

> [snippage]
> into the full blown game systems arena. I say, the more the merrier.
It's
> a very reasonable way to achieve innovation, despite the fact that it
> ain't Inform, kiddos.

If you demonstrate actual innovation, you won't find as much resistance
you think.  I don't mean that as a knock to SUDS, although it may be.
One thing you could add to the list above is "easy to use", but you'd
also have to add "without being too resitrictive or limiting".

If SUDS is at the level of Inform or TADS, it may do quite well by
attracting people who are intimidated by those languages, and there's
nothing wrong with that. But you can't expect people to be doing
handsprings over something which doesn't expand the field, limits the
target platforms *and* costs money to boot.
--
[ok]


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


From erkyrath@netcom.com Tue Nov  9 18:29:27 CET 1999
Article: 66385 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [inform] Unfounded library/glulx migration worries
Date: 9 Nov 1999 15:41:50 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
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Alan Trewartha <alant@no.spam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> This is sort of aimed at the Plotkins and Nelsons out there, but I'm sure
> many others have a better grasp of this than me so answers please on the
> back of a used newspost...
> 
> I'm working on a big game and since I started it, the library has
> been updated, bugs posted, library re-updated, new compilers written, whole
> new virtual machines bloody-well designed, major manuals published (or
> nearly??).
> 
> All this should make me feel unproductive. It does. But that aside, what
> should I be concentrating on if I'm to keep my game compilable on glulx
> AND the z-machine?

As Dan said, it's a scary thing to switch libraries in mid-project. I try
not to do it. Particularly when the changes involve parsing. 

As I develop, I test all sorts of commands to see if disambiguation is
working. I do that every time I add an object, in fact.

If I switched libraries, I'd have to go back and test all of those
commands again -- and I don't know if I could *remember* everything I
tested.

Now, as to Glulx, the rules aren't going to change much. After the
competition is over, I'll pick up Glk/Glulx again, and the first thing I
need to do is create a biplatform 6/10 library.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Tue Nov  9 22:17:47 CET 1999
Article: 66387 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:28:02 +0000
Organization: none
Message-ID: <ant0913020b0M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
References: <802ltt$544$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <80493u$vj8$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> <8093dk$8ne$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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In article <8093dk$8ne$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, Magnus Olsson
<URL:mailto:mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> BTW, I fully agree with you that we really should look primarily at
> the games produced by a system rather than at the system itself. If we
> see a lot of great games produced with SUDS we'll no doubt view it in
> a favourable light. I think that what made Inform so popular was (at
> least to start with) the fact that Curses was available as an example
> of what you could do with the language.

Yes, although it still took two years for Inform usage to take
off.  TADS was clearly the dominant system in 1993-5; less
clearly thereafter, and I suppose it's been about half and half
ever since.

The point about "Curses" was not its quality (if any), but that
it demonstrated that a game of Infocom's complexity level could
be produced by Inform.  TADS 2.0 could do that as well, but I
don't think any other systems of the day could do so -- even TADS
1, I think -- and the release of TADS 2.0 was about the same
time as the appearance of Inform, and the appearance of these
newsgroups, and the publication of "Lost Treasures of Infocom",
and... and I think these facts are all related.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 09:39:01 CET 1999
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:34:04 +0000
Organization: none
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References: <802ltt$544$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <80493u$vj8$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> <uock8nu41e4.fsf@evelake.pdl.cs.cmu.edu> <ant080920c72M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk> <OYOQnHgK$GA.249@cpmsnbbsa02> <806su7$n3h$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <806t4v$npv$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <FKwtJF.n7y.0.gobblernet@alum.mit.edu>
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In article <FKwtJF.n7y.0.gobblernet@alum.mit.edu>, Bob Newell
<URL:mailto:bnewell@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Another poster claimed that we haven't really advanced all that much over
> the years.  I think that is not really the case.  Perhaps we haven't seen
> quantum leaps in development systems, it's true (although that could even
> be argued; look where Inform was say 5 years ago, or even TADS or 
> Hugo)

In particular I think the world model, which as I would argue is
where the real thought comes in, has been refined considerably
in all of these systems.  One of the things I've tried to do in
the new edition of the Inform manual is to document the algorithms
by which Inform decides on visibility, touchability, resolving
ambiguities in parsing and other notorious problems.  This is
only partly for the benefit of Inform authors -- it's also to
make some of the lessons learned by Inform over the years available
to people who will write better systems in years to come.

Oh dear, that sounds terribly pompous.  Perhaps it's also because
I like the sound of my own voice.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:28:02 +0000
Organization: none
Message-ID: <ant0913020b0M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
References: <802ltt$544$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <80493u$vj8$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> <8093dk$8ne$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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In article <8093dk$8ne$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, Magnus Olsson
<URL:mailto:mol@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
> BTW, I fully agree with you that we really should look primarily at
> the games produced by a system rather than at the system itself. If we
> see a lot of great games produced with SUDS we'll no doubt view it in
> a favourable light. I think that what made Inform so popular was (at
> least to start with) the fact that Curses was available as an example
> of what you could do with the language.

Yes, although it still took two years for Inform usage to take
off.  TADS was clearly the dominant system in 1993-5; less
clearly thereafter, and I suppose it's been about half and half
ever since.

The point about "Curses" was not its quality (if any), but that
it demonstrated that a game of Infocom's complexity level could
be produced by Inform.  TADS 2.0 could do that as well, but I
don't think any other systems of the day could do so -- even TADS
1, I think -- and the release of TADS 2.0 was about the same
time as the appearance of Inform, and the appearance of these
newsgroups, and the publication of "Lost Treasures of Infocom",
and... and I think these facts are all related.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



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From: fake-mail@anti-spam.address (Neil K.)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Culture clash (was Review (long))
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 glasser@iname.com (David Glasser) wrote:

> Is that truly a problem?  Something gives me the feeling that the SUDS
> authors didn't says "let's write a program that the r*if people will
> love"; they said "let's write this program" and later thought "well, why
> don't we tell the r*if people about this because it is similar to what
> they discuss?"

 Indeed. I've made this observation before, but I think we have a basic
clash of cultural assumptions here.

 On the one hand we have the PC user community, which sprang from bulletin
boards and online systems. This is apparently a world where shareware
still exists as a viable form of distribution, and which has no interest
at all in the notion of cross-platform compatibility. After all, PCs rule
the world - what other operating systems could there be? There's an
interest in relatively easy to use software, as most of the users tend to
be casual hobbyists who don't have the knowledge or tools to compile their
own source.

 On the other, we have the UNIX/open source community, which sprang from
the academic Internet. This is a world of freeware and public domain
software, and which has a keen interest in source distribution and
cross-platform development. After all, UNIX is a vastly superior operating
system to anything else. Since this world is full of engineers, computer
science students and hackers, there isn't much interest in making software
all that easy to use. Who needs more than a makefile?

 The rise of the Internet and the decline of BBSs and big standalone and
proprietary online systems means some increased contact between these
formerly disparate communities, of course.

 raif very much has its origins in the latter community. The top three
development systems aren't open-sourced, but do have their source freely
distributable. Virtually all the games being produced by raif community
types are freeware. And so a development system like SUDS - apparently
simple and easy to use, but with severe limitations unless it's been
registered - is culturally alien to the traditions and requirements of
raif people. Which is fine, of course, but I really don't see the point of
judging it in a raif context if that's not what it was meant for.

 - Neil K.

-- 
 t e l a  computer consulting + design   *   Vancouver, BC, Canada
      web: http://www.tela.bc.ca/tela/   *   email: tela @ tela.bc.ca


From thornley@visi.com Wed Nov 10 18:44:33 CET 1999
Article: 66426 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
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From: thornley@visi.com (David Thornley)
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In article <8084ct$qgk$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
David Cornelson <dcornelson@placet.com> wrote:
><okblacke@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:807l3h$oek$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> In article <38264fc6_3@dilbert.ic.sunysb.edu>,
>>   David Samuel Myers <dmyers@sparky.ic.sunysb.edu> wrote:
>> > Continuing in line with what Mike Snyder said ---
>> >
>> What I'm getting at is that you can't just shoehorn traditional
>> programming advancements into IF and expect to get the same overall
>> gains.
>
>I disagree with this statement enormously. By adding the simplicities of a
>Visual Basic like environment, you reduce the barrier to entry for whichever
>language you've chosen to simplify, which I believe was the whole point of
>Visual Basic. Beforehand, you needed to know C++ and the Windows SDK which
>for many people was a huge barrier.
>
Except that that isn't the same.  I know very little about VB, but I
would assume that it's a general-purpose programming language, and
therefore that you can do pretty much anything in it that you could do
in C++ (although one language may well be easier to do any specific
thing with, and the result may be faster in one than the other).

This means that somebody going from C++ to VB would not really be losing
much expressive power, except when projects get so large that software
engineering considerations start to dominate.  You can do the same
things, but easier.

This doesn't seem to be the case with SUDS.  It is apparently much
more limiting than the traditional IF languages.  It does not reduce
the entry barrier for writing something like a good competition entry.

>When I first started in this whole hobby three years ago, I really didn't
>understand oo programming despite being a professional and successful
>software developer. It took me three major writings in Inform before the
>lights went on and that amounted to well over two years. I still don't
>consider myself all that good of an oo programmer.
>
>Using an IDE for Inform, I believe that two years could have been reduced
>significantly.

I have real problems with this statement.

There are things an IDE can do.  I like the Metrowerks and Digitool
IDEs a lot.  They help me write, test, and debug code.

They do not substitute for knowing what I am doing.  I didn't learn about
object-oriented programming from the IDE.  I learned it from experience
in writing object-oriented code, and books like Keene's "Object-oriented
Programming in Common Lisp".  

 In fact, I believe it would have helped reduce many of the
>coding bugs that I released in Town Dragon as well as spelling (assuming any
>well-written IDE would have spell-checking within and possibly grammar).

Oh, it would have.  I like the syntax coloring in the Metrowerks IDE.
I like Macintosh Common Lisp's little pop-up of function parameters
whenever I type a function name.  I wouldn't dream of writing Lisp
without a parenthesis-matching editor, and I very much like having one
for C++.

This, of course, has nothing to do with object orientation.

(BTW, I've never seen a grammar checker that I'd trust.  I've used some,
and found them very useful, but only since I knew what I was doing, and
was able to evaluate their suggestions myself.)

>An IDE could also 'guide' you into writing better IF by keeping a check list
>of objects that need to be described. It could point out that you have two
>or more similar objects and ask if you want to merge them or create a class
>for them.

This strikes me as being seriously ambitious.  Does SUDS do anything like
this?

 It could help you implement doors, which I believe is an
>enormously confusing task at times.

Libraries.  Other people write the stuff.  You use it.

 It could help you build NPC code that
>works and possibly even ask you if you want to use some of the library
>contributions, such as follower or movelcass. It could help you manage the
>complexity of all of your objects by keeping tabs on all of their
>relationships. You would be able to 'see' the big pictuire. All of these
>things would reduce the barrier to building successful, well-written games
>for new programmers.

Yes, although I think you've gone beyond state of the art.  It might
be worth doing, but I assure you I don't have time for the design work.

 The IDE need only adhere to one simple rule. It must
>not in any way shape or form reduce the flexibility of writing ones own
>code. It must be able to import a text version of the code and export a text
>version of the code and understand it without problems. But I believe this
>is doable.
>
>And then you have...
>
>> * General parsing
>> * Dialogue parsing
>> * Artificial intelligence
>> * Handling combinatorial explosion
>> * Physics/world modelling
>> * Emotional modeling
>
>Of course these are all wonderful things too, but why can't we reduce the
>barrier to coding AND improve the overall programming depth with these types
>of enhancements? I still don't understand why this is such a difficult
>concept to understand.
>
It isn't.  The problem is to do the entry barrier stuff while still
allowing the neat stuff above.  The hypothetical IDE you described would
be useful to that.  It looks like SUDS isn't.

>Jarb
>
>PS: By the way, I've been working with a psychologist friend in trying to
>build emotional modeling. It ain't even close to easy and I'm not sure of
>the value of it in anything but a very large, complex game. But we're
>trying. You'll see the results in my WIP, whenever I finish it. Probably 8
>years from now.

The big problem I see is translating a character's internal state to
game description.  So far, I don't see anything better than partitioning
the emotional state space into regions manually and writing code and/or
descriptions individually.


--
David H. Thornley                        | If you want my opinion, ask.
david@thornley.net                       | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-


From seebs@plethora.net Wed Nov 10 18:50:25 CET 1999
Article: 66407 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
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In article <19991109223047.06571.00002898@ng-fy1.aol.com>,
BrenBarn <brenbarn@aol.comRemove> wrote:
>   In other words, with most IDEs, the complexity that you can achieve lies in
>the LANGUAGE, not the development environment, and as a result the environment
>is conceived as an afterthought to the language itself.

I would go further; in most cases, the complexity that you are facing is the
complexity of the *problem* you are trying to solve, and nothing can ever
change it.

-s
-- 
Copyright 1999, All rights reserved.  Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter.  Boycott Spamazon!
Will work for interesting hardware.  http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/
Visit my new ISP <URL:http://www.plethora.net/> --- More Net, Less Spam!


From okblacke@my-deja.com Wed Nov 10 22:13:26 CET 1999
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From: okblacke@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:44:38 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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In article <9qYpOFl2wMS2MI589heQitPtdBHU@4ax.com>,
  Alex Warren <SEE@THE.SIG.COM> wrote:
> [a snippet]
> The only real aspect of IF coding that I can imagine would be made
substantially
> easier by the use of and IDE would be creating a map

I don't think that map generation is *that* big a deal. Anybody can
throw together a map pretty quickly in TADS or Inform or Alan or Hugo.
I've never done much more than look at Alan or Hugo code, but I'm
reasonably sure that I could put together an elaborate map pretty dang
quickly in either of them.

I'm not saying it wouldn't help, mind you, just that it's not the main
thing people bang their heads on. If it were to be *really* useful, I
think it should allow variable sized sticks-and-balls, so that you
could, for example, easily draw an area in which certain senses could be
passed.

For example, you have a room with a big printing press in it that's
clattering away. You then have a big circle expand outward from that
room to indicate other rooms in which the printing press could be heard.

At least, I think that would be useful.

> > 7. Okay - Cross-Platform would be nice too, but that _would_ be
difficult.
> > Herein lies the problem. With the user base as it is on raif, would
people
> > welcome a Windows based IDE? Probably not. But it sure would make
things
> > easier for newcomers that use Windows based computers.

I think the resistance to a Windows-based IDE is less than the
resistance to a Windows-only player environment. I have no idea what the
actual numbers are, but I've certainly heard people say that they would
use a WIndows IDE if that didn't limit their players to Windows.

> That was certainly the idea with Quest/QDK, and I imagine it's the
reasoning
> behind SUDS too. The problem is that VB and Delphi are difficult to
port to
> other OS's, and there doesn't seem to be a language that exists that
can port
> interfaces (I imagine this is what GLK is supposed to do, although it
would mean
> recoding all of QDK - not something I really wish to contemplate).

I've heard rumors that Borland has an Alpha for Delphi for Linux. A
German company called Speedsoft has a Delphi-like Pascal environment for
OS/2, 32-bit Windows and a "pre-Alpha" for their Linux version. If you
made the player in Pascal (say avoiding most of the post-Delphi 2.0
features, which aren't that important to text programming), you could
use fPrint's Virtual Pascal to port the player between OS/2, Win32, DOS
and Linux, I think.

There are options for cross-platform stuff other than C, but you have to
work harder to find them.
--
[ok]


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 12 13:16:45 CET 1999
Article: 66539 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: A Game That Represents What An IF System Should Do?
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:02:05 +0000
Organization: none
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In article <wk66z8mzfo.fsf@turangalila.harmonixmusic.com>, Dan Schmidt
<URL:mailto:dfan@harmonixmusic.com> wrote:
> I shouldn't be posting while Graham's around to give the real story,
> but my understanding is that the first version of Curses was basically
> written in assembler.
> 
> From the Technical Manual:
> 
>   Inform 1, then, was the assembler "zass" rewritten and with certain
>   shorthands added. ... "Curses" was written in Inform 1 code for
>   about two years before being translated into modern syntax.

Yes.  It was an assembler with certain high-level features added,
notably an "if" statement.  But again, this is laying too much
emphasis on syntax.  The syntax was clumsy but the functionality
of the library and its world model were fairly strong.  In
particular I think it impressed people to find dialogues like:

    >look up bach in book
    (first taking the Encyclopaedia of Composers)
    (putting the tuning fork in the rucksack to make room)
    "J. S. Bach (1685-1750) had a pet aardvark called Nigel...

At the time, I think only TADS 2 and Inform could do this sort
of thing with any comfort.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From dg@pearl.tao.co.uk Wed Nov 17 22:29:56 CET 1999
Article: 66670 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:21:34 +0100
Organization: I'm organised? Wow!
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In article <80t4ut$dh1$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>,
	Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com> writes:
[...]
>>> The difficulty is a text editor widget.  A text grid won't work.  You 
>>> can't use character input in it because then the user might not be able 
>>> to see the cursor.  You can't use line input in it because then you can't 
>>> change lines in the middle of editing.
>> 
>> Why do you say the user might not be able to see the cursor?
> 
> Because there's no guarantee that a particular implementation will *have*
> a visible cursor.

Yup. A few months ago I went totally insane and started writing stuff in
Floo; partly to play with Glk and partly, as I said, because I was
totally insane. I managed most of a text editor, which lived in a Glk text
grid, and discovered that the cursor was only visible in the Curses Glk
implementation. XGlk didn't have one. I did think about using a flashing *
or something as a cursor but never got round to it.

I also wrote a single-stepping debugger for Floo words. Fun! (Floo's
actually not a bad language. It needs better scoping controls, but other
than that, it's flexible and powerful and not bad to write in.)

[...]
> Can't do that, either, in fact. There's no way to get the cursor position.
> This is a policy decision which I may change someday, but not for a
> baroque hack like faking a text-editng panel.

I kept track of the user's editing position, and put the cursor there
before waiting for a keypress. Of course, as the Glk cursor has no
physical existance, this only worked as a side effect of the Curses Glk
implementation.

-- 
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+ Q: What's the difference between the US and
|  Work: dg@tao-group.com         | Russia?
|  Play: dgiven@iname.com         | A: The US has a legal Communist party.      
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+ 


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Nov 17 22:30:47 CET 1999
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [SUDS] Review (long)
Date: 17 Nov 1999 20:10:00 GMT
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Daniel Barkalow <iabervon@iabervon.mit.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, David Given wrote:
> 
>> In article <80t4ut$dh1$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>,
>> 	Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com> writes:
>> > Because there's no guarantee that a particular implementation will *have*
>> > a visible cursor.
> 
> It seems to me that having a visible cursor in text grids would be a 
> useful feature and not difficult to provide. Why is it not?

Because I can't specify implementation. I have no idea what the output
capability of the library will be. It may be a VT100 terminal. It may be
an HTML page being reupdated really frequently, with text grids as
<pre></pre> blocks. It may be a stream of N*M characters that gets piped
to some other program or device.

The point of this exercise is to *abstract* the UI, and a rectangular grid
of characters is as explicit as I'm willing to go (for text grids).

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU Wed Nov 17 22:31:44 CET 1999
Article: 66667 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Paul O'Brian <obrian@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Maybe OT] Z-Machine (was Re: [SUDS] Review (long))
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:25:18 -0700
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On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Mike Snyder wrote:

> Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote in message
> <383104fb.18275767@news.bright.net>...
> >"Mike Snyder" <mikesnyder@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> 
> >Somehow I was under the impression that Graham Nelson was not
> >working alone to figure out the z-machine, but I was always
> >hazy as to who else was involved.
> 
> Evidently, Infocom approved (whether at the beginning, or in retrospect)
> since I seem to recall that some of the prizes from COMP#1 were donated *by*
> Infocom. Thanks for the reply!

Bzzzzt! Not quite. Infocom, in the sense we usually speak of it, had long
since blinked out of existence by the time of the 1995 comp. That comp
(whose results are recorded in SPAG #7, available for your perusal at the
SPAG website) did not have any prizes donated by any company. 

However... Activision, who bought Infocom along with the rights to its
name and all its properties, was kind enough to publish the "Winners" (top
3 from each category) of that competition on the Masterpieces of Infocom
cd, and to compensate the authors. It also donated prizes to the 1996
competition and has donated prizes to every competition since. 

As you suggest, Activision has been very friendly toward amateur IF, and
nobody is really worried that they are going to start getting defensive
about their rights to the z-machine. 

-- 
Paul O'Brian  obrian@colorado.edu  http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
"Sometimes even music cannot substitute for tears."
                                               -- Paul Simon





From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Nov 17 22:31:57 CET 1999
Article: 66676 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail
From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Maybe OT] Z-Machine (was Re: [SUDS] Review (long))
Date: 17 Nov 1999 18:52:30 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:66676

Jake Wildstrom <wild_dj@mit.edu> wrote:
> In article <383104fb.18275767@news.bright.net>,
> Jonadab the Unsightly One <jonadab@bright.net> wrote:
>>"Mike Snyder" <mikesnyder@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>There were lots of working examples both of interpreters and games,
>>but the z-machine wasn't documented *as such* by Infocom, at least
>>not to anyone outside of Infocom, AFAIK.  There was a lot of
>>"figuring out" that went on, which is why there was a 0.something
>>z-machine standards document which has since been upgraded to 1.0,
> 
> But if the internal specs were never provided to the pro bono reverse
> engineering team (presumably Graham Nelson & co.), how were opcodes like
> piracy, art_shift, and nop incorporated into the spec?

Guesswork and osmosis. Also, reverse-engineering the interpreters that
Infocom sold.

Also, I think a few non-shipped game files escaped. The German version of
Zork never shipped, but people knew enough about it to figure out the
accented-character set.

Also, sometimes they just got it wrong. I seem to recall that nop was
considered to be a break for quite some time.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 18 14:33:51 CET 1999
Article: 66705 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Maybe OT] Z-Machine (was Re: [SUDS] Review (long))
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:47:10 +0000
Organization: none
Message-ID: <ant180010b49M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
References: <802ltt$544$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <ant0819520b0M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk> <807gie$aiu$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <383104fb.18275767@news.bright.net> <80ut6m$ma5@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
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In article <80ut6m$ma5@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, Jake Wildstrom
<URL:mailto:wild_dj@mit.edu> wrote:
> But if the internal specs were never provided to the pro bono reverse
> engineering team (presumably Graham Nelson & co.), how were opcodes like
> piracy, art_shift, and nop incorporated into the spec?

I am sworn to secrecy.  (This is true.)

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From russotto@wanda.vf.pond.com Thu Nov 18 14:33:54 CET 1999
Article: 66697 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!news-xfer.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!POSTED.monger.newsread.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Maybe OT] Z-Machine (was Re: [SUDS] Review (long))
References: <802ltt$544$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <807gie$aiu$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <383104fb.18275767@news.bright.net> <80ut6m$ma5@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
Organization: Ghotinet
From: russotto@wanda.vf.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto)
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:42:02 EST
Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:66697

In article <80ut6m$ma5@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>,
Jake Wildstrom <wild_dj@mit.edu> wrote:
}In article <383104fb.18275767@news.bright.net>,
}Jonadab the Unsightly One <jonadab@bright.net> wrote:
}>"Mike Snyder" <mikesnyder@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
}>
}>There were lots of working examples both of interpreters and games,
}>but the z-machine wasn't documented *as such* by Infocom, at least
}>not to anyone outside of Infocom, AFAIK.  There was a lot of
}>"figuring out" that went on, which is why there was a 0.something
}>z-machine standards document which has since been upgraded to 1.0,
}
}But if the internal specs were never provided to the pro bono reverse
}engineering team (presumably Graham Nelson & co.), how were opcodes like
}piracy, art_shift, and nop incorporated into the spec?

Mostly reverse-engineering of the existing interpreters.  I believe some of
them had the opcode names in them.
-- 
Matthew T. Russotto                                russotto@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue." 


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 18 14:34:15 CET 1999
Article: 66703 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!gnelson.demon.co.uk!graham
From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Maybe OT] Z-Machine (was Re: [SUDS] Review (long))
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:43:39 +0000
Organization: none
Message-ID: <ant1800391cbM+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
References: <802ltt$544$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <80493u$vj8$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> <uock8nu41e4.fsf@evelake.pdl.cs.cmu.edu> <ant080920c72M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk> <806td2$6s0$2@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net> <ant0819520b0M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk> <807gie$aiu$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <383104fb.18275767@news.bright.net>
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In article <383104fb.18275767@news.bright.net>, Jonadab the Unsightly One
<URL:mailto:jonadab@bright.net> wrote:
> Somehow I was under the impression that Graham Nelson was not
> working alone to figure out the z-machine, but I was always 
> hazy as to who else was involved.

People who deserve the real credit include: the InfoTaskForce,
Mike Threepoint, Mark Howells, Stefan Jokisch and lots of others.
I actually did very little except to substantially flesh out the
version-6 definition (I think I'm the last person to discover a
new opcode, although Stefan is the last person to decipher a
header bit) -- but there again some leaks from friendly Infocom
people helped me out a bit.

When Inform arrived, versions 3 and 5 were understood in theory
but only version 3 was reliably interpreted.  Indeed, it wasn't
until Inform started compiling v5 games that interpreters started
taking them seriously...

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 23 17:11:35 CET 1999
Article: 66727 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Maybe OT] Z-Machine (was Re: [SUDS] Review (long))
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 20:52:21 +0000
Organization: none
Message-ID: <ant182021313M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
References: <802ltt$544$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <807gie$aiu$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <383104fb.18275767@news.bright.net> <80ut6m$ma5@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> <_HJY3.8218$J55.445688@monger.newsread.com>
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In article <_HJY3.8218$J55.445688@monger.newsread.com>, Matthew T. Russotto
<URL:mailto:russotto@wanda.vf.pond.com> wrote:
> Mostly reverse-engineering of the existing interpreters.  I believe some of
> them had the opcode names in them.

No, Infocom's assembly language looks quite different.  What we call
the branch instruction "get_sibling", for instance, Infocom called
the predicate "NEXT?".  About ten of the instructions have the
same name now as then, all of them guessable: add, div, jump,
save, restore and that sort of thing.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 23 17:12:34 CET 1999
Article: 66703 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!gnelson.demon.co.uk!graham
From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Maybe OT] Z-Machine (was Re: [SUDS] Review (long))
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:43:39 +0000
Organization: none
Message-ID: <ant1800391cbM+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
References: <802ltt$544$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <80493u$vj8$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> <uock8nu41e4.fsf@evelake.pdl.cs.cmu.edu> <ant080920c72M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk> <806td2$6s0$2@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net> <ant0819520b0M+4%@gnelson.demon.co.uk> <807gie$aiu$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <383104fb.18275767@news.bright.net>
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:66703

In article <383104fb.18275767@news.bright.net>, Jonadab the Unsightly One
<URL:mailto:jonadab@bright.net> wrote:
> Somehow I was under the impression that Graham Nelson was not
> working alone to figure out the z-machine, but I was always 
> hazy as to who else was involved.

People who deserve the real credit include: the InfoTaskForce,
Mike Threepoint, Mark Howells, Stefan Jokisch and lots of others.
I actually did very little except to substantially flesh out the
version-6 definition (I think I'm the last person to discover a
new opcode, although Stefan is the last person to decipher a
header bit) -- but there again some leaks from friendly Infocom
people helped me out a bit.

When Inform arrived, versions 3 and 5 were understood in theory
but only version 3 was reliably interpreted.  Indeed, it wasn't
until Inform started compiling v5 games that interpreters started
taking them seriously...

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From dfan@thecia.net Wed Nov 24 13:10:59 CET 1999
Article: 66823 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1
From: Dan Schmidt <dfan@thecia.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: For A Change beta diary
Date: 22 Nov 1999 10:34:01 -0500
Organization: Poor
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:66823

I kept pretty detailed records of the beta process for For A Change,
so I thought I would post them in case anybody's interested.  Another
reasons I'm posting is so that potential authors (competition or not)
can see how much really can go on in the beta process.  The first time
I wrote a game, I was astonished at how much happened during beta.

I keep a prioritized list of all the things I want to do to the game,
including bug fixes and feature additions.  The size of this list
fluctuated between 20 and 60 items; it was still around 20 at the time
I released the game, though those were all feature additions.

I also use RCS to keep frequent backups, including one of every
released version.

- Version 1.00 alpha was released on 30 August (I uploaded it to the
beta site at <http://www.textfire.com/beta.html>).  It was completely
playable, though a bit sparse.  All puzzles were in there, except for
one (the endgame was triggered automatically when you reached a certain
location, instead of forcing you to perform an action first).

I got three reports from people at the beta site (although one didn't
reach me until much later), and one from a friend.

I ask all testers to submit a complete transcript of their playthrough.
It's okay if they don't submit anything else at all.  I go through the
transcript and insert a *** mark every place I think the game should be
changed.  In a comp-sized game, this is doable; I'm not sure how big
the program would have to be before it became a problem.

- Version 1.00 beta was released on 11 September.  It had 53 changes
>from  1.00 alpha.  It's hard to say how many of them were bug fixes,
since many of the 'bugs' were of the form "the game should have some
interesting response to this try".  One of the changes was to add the
hint system.

I got four reports on 1.00 beta: one from someone on the beta site who
had seen 1.00 alpha; one from a friend who had seen 1.00 alpha; and
two from the ifMUD who hadn't seen it before.

- Version 2.00 beta was released on 17 September.  It had 47 changes
>from  1.00 beta.  This was mostly fleshing out; I added a bunch of
definitions to the guidebook, and made the very beginning of the game
feel a little more start-like (e.g., you now start on the resting, and
are told that you have been given a stone).

I only got two reports on 2.00 beta because it never actually got put
on the beta site due to a miscommunication.  Both of them were from
previous players.

- Version 1.00 final was released on 25 September.  It had 40 changes
>from  2.00 beta.  This was mostly just stuff like adding synonyms
and adding lots of global scenery (you can look at the sun, wall,
and tower from anywhere outside).  I added the "start the endgame"
puzzle, and finally bit the bullet and implemented a bunch of
miniature objects inside the model that you could look at and
stuff.  I don't know if anyone actually noticed.  Also things like
LOOK NORTH from the Observation Room, instead of just LOOK THROUGH
NORTH WINDOW.  The very last thing I added before release was the
extra inventory descriptions (such as "humble and true" for the
stone).

I had a couple of people go through this version, but they were all
people who had already played it, so they probably weren't looking too
hard at this point.

- Version 1.01 final was released on 29 September.  It had 9 changes
>from  1.00 final.  No real bugs, just a bunch of tweaks.  At this
point, I started using the tool 'diff' to make sure that the changes I
had made since the last release were exactly the changes I thought I
had made.

- Version 1.02 final was released on 30 September.  It fixed one final
bug that probably no one would have seen anyway, but hey.

- Players reported around 10 bugs in the released version, none of
them game-impacting and only two serious.  (The rest were mostly
things like missing scenery.)  So far I've made 12 changes in the
post-release version...

There you have it.  Just for grins, I've uploaded my complete For A
Change change log to <http://www.dfan.org/IF/change_update.txt>.  It's
kind of terse, but you can probably get a good idea of the process
>from  it.

-- 
Dan Schmidt | http://www.dfan.org


From jburneko@aludra.usc.edu Wed Nov 24 13:12:25 CET 1999
Article: 66837 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!usc!aludra.usc.edu!jburneko
From: Jesse Burneko <jburneko@aludra.usc.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Rehasing Puzzleless Conversation
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:36:10 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 72
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Hello,

I know that the topic of "What constitutes a puzzle" has been done to
death but every time it has come up I've wanted to say something on the
subject because I have very strong opinions about what is and isn't a
puzzle but have never been able to properly articulate it.

However, while pondering how to phrase an issue I want to discuss [see my
next post] the idea of what is and isn't a puzzle to me sort of clarified
itself in my mind and I thought I'd share and see what you think.  Okay
here it goes.

When someone asks me to name a game I think is puzzleless three titles
jump immediately to mind: Deadline, Suspect and Witness.  Now, those are
odd choices because afterall they are all Who Done It style murder
mysteries and seem to be puzzles by their very nature.  But, it was at
this point that I realised the distinction between a puzzle and a problem.
All fiction contains problems, more literarily refered to as conflict.
Deadline contains the PROBLEM of solving a murder but solving a murder
isn't a puzzle.

To illustate my idea of a problem vs. a puzzle in a game context I will
give examples of using a jigsaw puzzle in three cases.  The first is a
puzzelless instance, the second is borderline and the third case I would
definitely call a puzzle.

Case I: Consider a murder mystery game where the murderer tears up a
photograph and the player, acting as the detective, finds it and puts it
back together again.  This to me is a puzzleless use of a jigsaw puzzle
(sounds contradictory I know but bare with me).  It is puzzleless because
this is a perfectly reasonable thing for the murder to do.  He is not
tearing up the picture as some kind of clever battle of wits between
himself and the detective but rather to obliterate evidence.  In fact the
killer would prefer it if the picture was not found at all.  The
puzzleless nature of this scenario would be enahanced if the player didn't
HAVE to assemble the photo to complete the story.  Assembling the photo
might lead to a swifter solution or just enhance understanding of the
story.  The player might be able to learn the contents of the photo in an
alternative method, perhaps by asking someone else who saw the photo
before it was torn up.

Case II: A dying man writes the name of a killer on a pre-existing jigsaw
puzzle and then breaks up the puzzle to hopefully better insure it falling
into the right hands.  This is a borderline case because as above the
character creating the problem has good motivation to do so.  However, it
"feels" like a challenge if not from the character in the context of the
story (however, I would feel like the dying man was leaving a challenge
for the police) then from the author of the story.  So this is a tough
call for me.  Depending on my mood I might call it puzzeless because its
well motivated and believable as a real world scenario.  On the other hand
I might call it a puzzle because it just feels to much like a direct
challenge of wits either between my character and the dying man or myself
as the player and the author.

Case III: Consider a time machine that operates by placing jigsaw puzzle
pieces together, each piece representing a different time period.  Now, I
know this example is a bit contrived and NO ONE would ever do this,
(Cough, Cough) but here the jigsaw puzzle is used in a pure puzzle form.
It is there for no other reason than as a challenge to the player to
complete it.  Artistically it might be a clever idea.  I have no problem
with it's artistic use and it even fits into the context of the story.
But still it is a jigsaw puzzle, placed as a puzzle for the player to
solve.

So, I like puzzleless IF.  I like IF where I am faced with PROBLEMS to
overcome but prefer to overcome those problems in a PUZZLELESS manner.  So
anyway, that's my contribution (a bit late) to the whole puzzle vs.
non-puzzle debate.

Jesse Burneko




From anson@DELETE_THISpobox.com Wed Nov 24 13:12:35 CET 1999
Article: 66847 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!uio.no!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!hub22.nn.bcandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!anson
From: anson@DELETE_THISpobox.com (Anson Turner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Rehasing Puzzleless Conversation
Message-ID: <anson-2211991920510001@line214cnt230.efortress.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911221207260.3287-100000@aludra.usc.edu>
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:66847

In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911221207260.3287-100000@aludra.usc.edu>, Jesse
Burneko <jburneko@aludra.usc.edu> wrote:

:So, I like puzzleless IF.  I like IF where I am faced with PROBLEMS to
:overcome but prefer to overcome those problems in a PUZZLELESS manner.  So
:anyway, that's my contribution (a bit late) to the whole puzzle vs.
:non-puzzle debate.

But see, you're defining "puzzle" from the point of view of the player's
character, rather than the player. By some definitions, a puzzle is
something intentionally designed to baffle someone or test their
ingenuity. Plausible problems in the game from the character's point of
view may not (by such a definition) be puzzles *to the character*, but
they are still puzzles to the player if they were put there as a
challenge. The character's motivation is irrelevant.



Anson.


From jburneko@aludra.usc.edu Wed Nov 24 13:18:33 CET 1999
Article: 66946 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Jesse Burneko <jburneko@aludra.usc.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: To interact, or not to interact
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:51:37 -0800
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NOTE: This post will contain a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR SPOILER for Photopia so
if you have not played it I seriously and I DO MEAN SEROIUSLY suggest that
you DO NOT read it.  It will be a while before I get to it so I will omit
the spoiler space.

On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, timsim wrote:

> Why are games considered as IF when they clearly are NOT interactive?  It
> totally baffles me.  Photopia is not interactive anymore than reading a book
> is interactive.  The player makes no choices that determine the outcome of
> the game.

Well, most adventure games you can't determine the outcome of the game.
There is ONE goal type ending and maybe multiple death scenarios.  Sure,
there's a lot larger variety of things you can do but the outcome is
always the same.

> Photopia is not IF.  Why? Because you cannot make true decisions.

Actually, you can.  Photopia is amazingly flexible for its limited
structure.  In fact in the scene I'm about to discuss is the BEST use of
interactive fiction I've ever scene because it is the first use of a
technique that I have often thought about but never seen done before this
one scene.  And that is the player's decision affecting the interpretation
of the story.

Now when I first played Photopia and caught on to what was going on I was
devistated emotionally.  It I was wandering around stunned for days.  So,
it had the effect it was trying to achieve.

Now consider the scene where you are playing that guy who wants to ask
Alley out to the school dance.  When I played it I did ask her and she
said she'd go out with him on Saturday.  Of course, she doesn't live to
see Saturday and I felt really bad for the guy because of what he must be
going through.

However, when I gave the game to my friend Tyler (who is now a newbie and
a lurker on this group so if you're reading this, HI TYLER) he didn't ask
her.  He walked out.  I didn't know you could choose to do this.  Now, I
already new the outcome of the story, but I felt bad ALL OVER AGAIN
because in this version of the story not only does the kind have the "Girl
of his dreams" killed in a car accident he doesn't know that he had chace!

So you see, this very simple decision had a profound impact on the
interpretation of the story.  And to me THIS is interactive fiction at
it's best and really displays the potential at its best.

> Once I got past the slap-in-the-face feeling of realizing that Photopia
> wasn't 'playable', then I actually enjoyed it.  But not as IF; only F.

Oh but it is playable.  Try playing around with simple decisions like the
one above and you'll see how flexible it really is.

Anyway, my two cents.  Photopia is one of the better uses of the
interactive medium I've seen.

Jesse Burneko



From doeadeer3@aol.com Wed Nov 24 13:18:54 CET 1999
Article: 66952 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: doeadeer3@aol.com (Marnie Parker)
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Subject: Re: To interact, or not to interact
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>Subject: Re: To interact, or not to interact
>From: Jesse Burneko jburneko@aludra.usc.edu 
>Date: Wed, 24 November 1999 12:51 AM EST

I didn't find Photopia particularly interactive, but everyone knows that.

Actually this topic has already been discussed to death. So you are beating a
dead horse. A dead horse with flies on it.

Basically, we all like different things, there is no iffy standard, there is no
reason to have an iffy standard, we don't all HAVE to like the same things.

And modern day IF to paraphrase Andrew Plotkin from last year, not this, now
has room enough for all.

Doe :-)

What the hell, I'm inconsistent too. 




doeadeer3@aol.com -------------------------------------------------
Kingdom of  IF - http://members.aol.com/doepage/intfict.htm
Inform Tips - http://members.aol.com/doepage/infotips.htm
IF Art Gallery - http://members.aol.com/iffyart/gallery.htm





From jdblask@csd.uwm.edu Wed Nov 24 15:07:14 CET 1999
Article: 66904 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Wonder Boy <jdblask@csd.uwm.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: [Inform] warning to newbies and a plea for help
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:24:02 -0600
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	So I'm trying to debug my game (Death To My Enemies) for a
post-comp release and have had trouble reproducing some of the things that
people had mentioned with WinFrotz or WinNitfol, the two interpreters that
I use the most.  Today, I figured out that my problems (incorrect
articles, wacky >GET ALL responses) occurred in MaxZip, and zarf
explained to me that it's because MaxZip doesn't declare itself compliant
with the Z-Machine 1.0 standard.
	So my warning to newbies is that it's important to specifically
declare articles (with an 'article "an"' and what not) because some
interpreters won't do the work for you.  I'd also suggest testing your
games with a zip interpreter for your OS, as I've found that most of those
seem to not be Z-Machine 1.0 standard compliant, either.
	Now, on to my other problem.  I was mostly happy with >GET ALL in
WinFrotz, but under Zip interpreters, >GET ALL in my game also refers to
objects that you are already carrying.  I think I got my code from the
Inform manual, and I'm wondering if someone could post some code for
handling >GET ALL the best.  I'd really be grateful.
						-jon
	"If I got stranded on a desert island (with electricity)/
	 And I could bring one record and my hi-fi/
	 I'd bring that ocean surf cd (Relaxing Sound of Ocean Surf)/
	 So I could enjoy the irony."   - Dylan Hicks





From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Nov 24 15:07:20 CET 1999
Article: 66906 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] warning to newbies and a plea for help
Date: 23 Nov 1999 17:37:52 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
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Wonder Boy <jdblask@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
> 	So I'm trying to debug my game (Death To My Enemies) for a
> post-comp release and have had trouble reproducing some of the things that
> people had mentioned with WinFrotz or WinNitfol, the two interpreters that
> I use the most.  Today, I figured out that my problems (incorrect
> articles, wacky >GET ALL responses) occurred in MaxZip, and zarf
> explained to me that it's because MaxZip doesn't declare itself compliant
> with the Z-Machine 1.0 standard.

That was entirely about incorrect articles.

I don't know what's going on with "get all" responses. Those should be the
same on every interpreter.

> 	So my warning to newbies is that it's important to specifically
> declare articles (with an 'article "an"' and what not) because some
> interpreters won't do the work for you. 

They would if they could be asked. :-) But yeah.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From anson@DELETE_THISpobox.com Wed Nov 24 15:07:29 CET 1999
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From: anson@DELETE_THISpobox.com (Anson Turner)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] warning to newbies and a plea for help
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In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.991123110951.15376A-100000@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu>,
Wonder Boy <jdblask@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:

:        So my warning to newbies is that it's important to specifically
:declare articles (with an 'article "an"' and what not) because some
:interpreters won't do the work for you.  I'd also suggest testing your
:games with a zip interpreter for your OS, as I've found that most of those
:seem to not be Z-Machine 1.0 standard compliant, either.

In PrefaceByArticle in "parserm", change the line

   if (standard_interpreter ~= 0 && findout)

to

   if (findout)

to force the library to print "an" before a vowel, whether the interpreter
is "standard" or not.



Anson.


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Nov 24 15:07:52 CET 1999
Article: 66913 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] warning to newbies and a plea for help
Date: 23 Nov 1999 18:28:47 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
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Anson Turner <anson@delete_thispobox.com> wrote:
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.991123110951.15376A-100000@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu>,
> Wonder Boy <jdblask@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
> 
> :        So my warning to newbies is that it's important to specifically
> :declare articles (with an 'article "an"' and what not) because some
> :interpreters won't do the work for you.  I'd also suggest testing your
> :games with a zip interpreter for your OS, as I've found that most of those
> :seem to not be Z-Machine 1.0 standard compliant, either.
> 
> In PrefaceByArticle in "parserm", change the line
> 
>    if (standard_interpreter ~= 0 && findout)
> 
> to
> 
>    if (findout)
> 
> to force the library to print "an" before a vowel, whether the interpreter
> is "standard" or not.

No. This is a very bad idea. 

If you make this change, the ability to use @output_stream 3 will break
violently on any old interpreter (any interpreter which doesn't support
nesting streams.) I know most games don't use @output_stream 3, and maybe
there aren't that many old interpreters left. But it's still a bad idea.
The resulting bug will be a lot uglier than printing "a" for "an".

Just put the article property in, already. It won't break your legs.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Nov 24 15:08:51 CET 1999
Article: 66920 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] warning to newbies and a plea for help
Date: 23 Nov 1999 20:26:30 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
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Anson Turner <anson@delete_thispobox.com> wrote:
> In article <81emcv$18l$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net>, Andrew Plotkin
> <erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:
> 
> :No. This is a very bad idea. 
> :
> :If you make this change, the ability to use @output_stream 3 will break
> :violently on any old interpreter (any interpreter which doesn't support
> :nesting streams.) I know most games don't use @output_stream 3, and maybe
> :there aren't that many old interpreters left. But it's still a bad idea.
> :The resulting bug will be a lot uglier than printing "a" for "an".
> 
> If you can tell me what interpreters, specifically, do not support nesting
> streams, maybe I'll be convinced.

All of Infocom's interpreters, of course.

ITF, including Bryan Scattergood's up-to-date ports. 

ZeX.

JZip.

Matt Russotto's Java interpreter.

Shall I continue checking?

> Do you
> tell everyone who releases a version 8 game that it is a "very bad idea"?

No.

If old interpreters started to run V8 games, and then had strange
text-printing problems under *some* circumstances, then I would answer
"yes".

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From jburneko@aludra.usc.edu Wed Nov 24 17:01:39 CET 1999
Article: 66868 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Jesse Burneko <jburneko@aludra.usc.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:38:27 -0800
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On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Jim Aikin wrote:

> If you break the info-dump up into little bits that the player has to
> "find," they can be accessed in any order. This can be a problem if
> you're trying to put a dramatic incident into the back-story, as opposed
> to vignettes. But it can also be interesting, because different players
> may find or not find different bits and pieces of the back-story, which
> may cause them to interpret present-time events in different ways.

Yes, this is EXACTLY the effect I want to achieve.  That's what sets the
interactive part of the game appart from a static novel.  The ORDER in
which events occur in and the elements at are seen vs. the elements that
are not scence affect the interpretation of every aspect of the story.

> The other option is to move the player INTO the flashback scenario
> interactively -- something like what Graham did in Curses, where you
> find yourself in the tent on the battlefield or wherever.

This is the very thing I want to avoid.

Incidentilly I guess I should have said, what is a good way to weave these
backstory elements into an interactive story OR what would be a good thing
to replace it with if, as one poster pointed out, these ideas are mutually
exclusive.

Another issue in this type of situation is the passage of time.  If a
character in a novel is college student the author can just write, "After
biology...." but if the player is PLAYING the character they would have to
go to biology class or perhaps skip it which would cause other
concequences but we don't want to bog the player down with unnecessary
tasks.  Now it's easily missed and forgiven if the player doesn't have to
say, put their clothes on in the morning or have to bathe.  But how do you
gracefully skip over major events likes going to class without interupting
the flow of LIVING this character's life.

Jesse Burneko



From nikiaj.backwards@pacbell.net Wed Nov 24 17:01:53 CET 1999
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BrenBarn wrote:
> 
>      Well, my comp99 entry (Lomalow) was almost all backstory.  The problem
> that many people have noted, though, is that it loses a lot of interactivity,
> and creates long speeches (although in this case you'd be typing ASK MAN ABOUT
> PIT instead of WAIT -- even worse, because of the extra finger work :-).
>      But one of the devices I used was a history book which the player reads to
> gain information about the characters in the game.  Now, obviously you don't
> want to just have a huge library which inexplicably houses books describing
> each character's history; but you can use similar "triggers".  For example,
> perhaps if the player character, carrying a flute, walks into the living room,
> where Old Man Bokum (an NPC) is sitting, OMB will launch into a short
> discussion of how he used to be quite a flute player in his day.  Other aspects
> of Bokum's character can be revealed similarly, or by other characters with
> other triggers.
>      Of course, this breaks up Bokum's backstory into lots of little nuggets,
> which may not be what you want.  But it's an idea. . .

This is probably a good technique.

It's worth noting, IMO, that the problem is intrinsic to the medium of
IF. A flashback is an info-dump, and thus by definition non-interactive.
In Myst and Riven it's handled with documents that you find and read --
and they're not really very interesting, in spite of the cute drawings.
Having the player find a spool of old 8mm movie film, or say a
videotape, might be more engrossing.

If you break the info-dump up into little bits that the player has to
"find," they can be accessed in any order. This can be a problem if
you're trying to put a dramatic incident into the back-story, as opposed
to vignettes. But it can also be interesting, because different players
may find or not find different bits and pieces of the back-story, which
may cause them to interpret present-time events in different ways. This
type of multidimensional experience is bound to be hard to do well, but
it's bound to be worth exploring too.

The other option is to move the player INTO the flashback scenario
interactively -- something like what Graham did in Curses, where you
find yourself in the tent on the battlefield or wherever. This adds a
much more interesting form of multidimensionality, but it's harder to
find an in-the-scenario justification for it: Is the player experiencing
a dream? A hallucination? Has she stepped through a magic door at the
foot of the garden?

Maybe the central question is, why are you wanting to do a flashback?
What is it about your particular story that seems to demand it? Because
if you know the answer to that one, you'll be well on your way to
devising an appropriate mechanism.

--Jim ("for assorted pontifications, push red button") Aikin


From emshort@mindspring.com Wed Nov 24 17:04:34 CET 1999
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
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>Another issue in this type of situation is the passage of time.  If a
>character in a novel is college student the author can just write, "After
>biology...." but if the player is PLAYING the character they would have to
>go to biology class or perhaps skip it which would cause other
>concequences but we don't want to bog the player down with unnecessary
>tasks.  Now it's easily missed and forgiven if the player doesn't have to
>say, put their clothes on in the morning or have to bathe.  But how do you
>gracefully skip over major events likes going to class without interupting
>the flow of LIVING this character's life.

Frame your story so that it contains no occasion for biology classes.  What
you're playing isn't the character's life -- it's a carefully selected,
non-boring segment thereof.

That may sound very dogmatic, but I think I-F forces you to respect the
dramatic unities more than most genres.  Whatever happens needs to happen
either a) over one unbroken stretch of time (typical) or b) with
recognizable scene-changes at specific points (cf Chix Dig Jerks or
Tapestry).  There's no excuse for putting in wads of routine events as
filler -- any more than it's necessary, when designing an I-F house, to put
in a bathroom with all the fixtures.  I'm all for mimesis as long as it
doesn't get in the way of the story's art.  

So the question is: why do we need the biology class?  If it's only there to
remind us of what college is like and thus provide realism, then skip it
entirely.  If some lapse of time is genuinely required, then do a scene-cut
-- or else have all the real action of the game take place after biology,
with evidence about what happened before larded in.  

ES


From emshort@mindspring.com Wed Nov 24 17:05:21 CET 1999
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From: "Emily Short" <emshort@mindspring.com>
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>> So the question is: why do we need the biology class?  If it's only there to
>> remind us of what college is like and thus provide realism, then skip it
>> entirely.  If some lapse of time is genuinely required, then do a scene-cut
>> -- or else have all the real action of the game take place after biology,
>> with evidence about what happened before larded in.  
>
>We don't need the biology class.  That's the point.  

I'm sorry, I phrased that poorly.  What I meant was, what function does
*mentioning* the biology class play in the story? 

>Starting after is all
>well and good but what if this story were supposed to span a whole YEAR of
>this characters life?  The type of novels I originally listed often deal
>with long periods of times quite often as long as a few years or pehaps
>the entire life cycle of a single indivual.

Right.  Bluntly, I don't think that _Wuthering Heights_ or its ilk are
eligible for translation to I-F (though, in fact, all the action of WH is
constrained within a *relatively* short time period through the Lockwood
frame story.  But I assume you would want the player in the role of Cathy or
Heathcliff, not as the external observer.)  If you're not willing to jump
through time, I don't know how you could avoid making such a game almost
unendurably tedious.  Not to mention that your average Bronte or Hardy
extravaganza turns on nuances of character as much as on actual action, and
therefore is doubly ineligible to be I-Fified.  

I realize that's decidedly not the answer you're looking for.  But consider
the durable compactness of Ibsen or Chekhov.  Many years of suffering may
lie behind the story, but the story itself is tightly delineated.  If what
you want is I-F that feels more like *literature*, then I think that is the
direction that it needs to go -- towards plays and short stories, not
towards the sprawling magnificence of the nineteenth century novel.  Which
brings up the question of how to endow the player character with more
personality and nuance -- but that's a different problem entirely.

ES


From emshort@mindspring.com Wed Nov 24 17:06:47 CET 1999
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From: "Emily Short" <emshort@mindspring.com>
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> > I'm sorry, I phrased that poorly.  What I meant was, what function does
> > *mentioning* the biology class play in the story? 
> 
> For believability and realism.  If the story spans one month in the life
> of a college student then there should be references to classes, homework
> and other obligations.  Obviously we don't want the player to DEAL with
> these obligations because, yes that would be tedious.  But those elements
> should be present.  Haven't you ever read a book and found yourself
> thinking, "This guy is supposed to be a student but he never seems to go
> to class or have homework to do."

Of course.  A not unrelated phenomenon is the plethora of teen dramas on
the WB in which no one ever seems to have any homework to do.  

But I think the way to deal with this is to arrange things so that classes
don't come up *within the timeframe of the game story*.  You can have bio
textbooks lying around your dorm room, dire warnings about the final
pencilled onto your calendar, scribbled marginal notes from your lab
partner -- all the physical evidence of that as part of your life.  
But make the I-F take place at a time when no biology intervenes.

> In fact the rather brillant twist of the
> film Sixth Sense, if you've seen that, almost mocks the audience's
> willingness to ignore such missing details.  Since I am not willing to
> ignore those details I thought it was a BAD film until the end.

Right.  I know what you mean.
 
> > Not to mention that your average Bronte or Hardy extravaganza turns on
> > nuances of character as much as on actual action, and therefore is
> > doubly ineligible to be I-Fified.  
> 
> I don't know if I agree with this statement.  It's these nuances of
> character that I think are lacking from IF today and I'm trying to work
> out techniques of weaving them in.  

Fine.  But I think there are a lot of events pivotal to a
nineteenth century novel that you couldn't incorporate into I-F because
they consist of purely internal developments.  How would you implement,
eg.:

-- Jane Eyre dreaming about traveling across the moors carrying a baby,
then deciding not to give up her struggle to survive;

-- Emma Bovary growing bored of her provincial existence and her
unglamorous husband;

-- Jean Valjean repenting of his crimes and turning to an upright life;

or even

-- Mr. Darcy recognizing how his behavior might appear to Elizabeth.

These events are real turning points in the novels in which they occur,
but they could be replicated in I-F only as states in the player's mind.
[Barring the invention of some really surreal verbs like "repent",
"forgive", "regain hope", and, most ludicrously, "recognize an important
truth about self".]  Delusions tried to do things with the
self-comprehension theme, and I thought it had a wonderful and creepy idea
but was critically flawed in execution.  Tapestry also tried to do the
journey to self-knowledge, and that I just found squirmy and
uncomfortable: I don't like having my spiritual state narrated to me.  As
for Photopia, I hesitate to say anything at all because people have such
strong and disparate reactions to it.  But I think it's a different ball
of wax anyway -- more an immersive story than a truly interactive one.

What you *can* do is model just the crux of the story, in which the years
of accumulated experience find their expression in the external action of
two hours.  This gets back to what you were saying originally about
backstory and primary story: the primary story can often be written out
fairly briefly.  If you don't want to skip periods of time or resort to
flashbacks or extended monologues (and I understand why you might find
those options unappealing), then you have to filter in the backstory
through some other method.

ES




From mcmenomy@mail1.sas.upenn.edu Wed Nov 24 17:08:23 CET 1999
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From: mcmenomy@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Mary J Mcmenomy)
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Subject: Re: IF Design Issue (longish post)
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: What you *can* do is model just the crux of the story, in which the years
: of accumulated experience find their expression in the external action of
: two hours.  This gets back to what you were saying originally about
: backstory and primary story: the primary story can often be written out
: fairly briefly.  If you don't want to skip periods of time or resort to
: flashbacks or extended monologues (and I understand why you might find
: those options unappealing), then you have to filter in the backstory
: through some other method.

This, as I understand it, is what the _original_ question was about.  The 
passage-of-time question may be a red herring; more to the point, where 
does PC nuance come from?

Of the top of my head, I'd submit the following:

1.  Memory -- delicately grafted onto the descriptions of objects, as
several others have suggested.  These can be larded around suggestively so
that, like the clues in Deadline, they gradually build up a picture of
what has happened.

2.  Range of permitted activities.  Think seriously about what physical,
psychological, and moral restrictions affect how your character might act.
Do not allow actions that fall outside this range.

Both of these have been discussed before, so I'll move on to my own pet
issue: the PC as viewpoint character.  The typical narrative voice of IF
is a little sarcastic and tends to break character, at least once in a
while.  It says things like "You can't be serious" and "Real adventurers
do not use such language."  (Not to mention my all-time Infocom favorite,
"Talking to yourself is a sign of impending mental collapse.")  Some of   
these things are automatic responses built into the library.  But will a
PC who has serious issues because he thinks he's overweight and can't get
a date respond to ">x me" with "As good-looking as ever."?  Clearly not.

I submit that, since the PC is also the viewpoint through which you
experience the story, every room and object description subtly conveys
information about him [*].  Broadly, I think this information falls into the
following subcategories: 

3.  Diction.  How high or low is the PC's language?  Does he talk in
slang, in academic jargonese, in Ciceronian crescendos?  

I don't think it's necessary to resort to things like deliberate
mispelling or orthographical representations of dialect in order to get
across the sense of a unique voice.  (Personally I find mispelling and
shoddy grammar so annoying that I tend to quit any game in which they're
too widespread.)

4.  Mental context.  In what terms does the PC describe things?  Does he 
draw comparisons to art ("a clear fall of light, direct out of an early 
Netherlandish painting"), or popular culture ("spikier hair than Lisa 
Simpson"), or science ("such dense cake that the light is starting to 
bend around it")?  

5.  Implicit bias.  It can be clumsy, or at least arch, to tell the 
character in so many words what he thinks of something, in this style:

***
Nursery
Anything cute gives you stomach pains, and just walking in here makes you 
wonder whether you should check up on your ulcer.  The crib is crammed to 
bursting with fluffy little stuffed lambs -- which must be great if Baby 
suffers from insomnia.  Overhead (and looking no less substantial than 
the cottony livestock) are a lot of cottony clouds painted on a 
pewter-blue ceiling.  

You catch yourself frisking your pockets for the packet of floss you know
you've got around somewhere. 
***

A little much, right?  What if you want to tell the player how the PC 
feels about something without resorting to that kind of smart-aleck 
mental state?  It is possible to embed the bias into the description a 
bit less blatantly:

***
Nursery 
Self-consciously adorable in the tradition of "Precious Moments",
the nursery sports a sky-blue ceiling and the requisite silver-lined
clouds.  A generous armload of stuffed animals lines the wicker crib, none
of them showing the least bit of wear.
***

It's possible to work in hints about a character's emotional state in 
much the same way, to make him angry or happy or touchy, and to imply 
sub-surface reactions to things.

All of these techniques may seem relatively trivial -- you want to give
your characters the depth of Anna Karenina, and I'm suggesting a
collection of attitudinal poses for them.  But I think that you can build
up a lot of implied history for a character this way, especially if you're
thoughtful and consistent about it.  Moreover, the more the player is
forced to think the like the PC, the better the plot is likely to work
emotionally.  It's possible for the IF player to reject or laugh at
statements like "You're terrified by the approach of Golrog the SlugMan";
it's a lot harder for him to filter out the consistent subtle messages
imbedded in the very nature of the world description.  After all, if he
tries, what does he have left? 

-- Mary McMenomy



Note: FWIW, most of these ideas are rehashed from one of my personal
bibles of character writing, Orson Scott Card's _Character and Viewpoint_. 
It isn't written with IF in mind, obviously, but it does have a lot to say
about how to tell the reader something without resorting to overt
exposition. 

------
* Having the reactionary nature proper to a classicist, I use "he" in its
time-honored generic sense.  If this really bugs you, just think "he or
she" whenever you see it.  Thank you. 



From emshort@mindspring.com Wed Nov 24 17:12:15 CET 1999
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From: "Emily Short" <emshort@mindspring.com>
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----------
In article <81f3q9$jll$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Kathleen M. Fischer
<green_gargoyle@my-deja.com> wrote:

>> Not to mention that your average Bronte or Hardy
>> extravaganza turns on nuances of character as much as on actual
>> action, and therefore is doubly ineligible to be I-Fified.
>
>Not to be argumentative, but I'm extremely curious as to why you
>think that is true. Could you be more specific?
>
>I'm less familiar with Wuthering Heights, but I can certainly
>see Jane Eyre (Charlette Bronte) as fodder for IF. You couldn't
>include everything from the book, but then the 2-4 hr. movies
>that come out periodically don't include the whole book either.


My problem with Jane Eyre as I-F is that many of the turning points are
purely internal and could not be expressed by external actions.  The bare
bones of the story could be compacted, I suppose, and I am more than happy
to agree that Mr. Rochester's house would make a splendid milieu.  (Most
Gothics are rich enough in setting to make fun I-F; I think, though, that
something like Ann Radcliffe's _Mysteries of Udolpho_ [a prime specimen of
the kind of nonsensical romance Austen was lampooning with _Northanger
Abbey_] would be far *better* fodder for I-F than anything by any of the
Brontes.  Radcliffe's characters are fairly underdeveloped, their adventures
are episodic and silly, and there is a plentiful supply of bandits,
smugglers, wordy servants, mysterious portraits, ghastly legends, secret
passageways, skeletons hidden behind black veils, and caches of portentous
letters under the floor.   Everything that happens, happens more or less on
the surface; the *psyche* of our heroine is not the primary battleground.)

Whereas, in Jane Eyre, primary events include personal decisions (to run
away when the mad wife in the attic is revealed; *not* to marry the
missionary cousin) and complicated conversations (Mr. Rochester disguised as
a gypsy.  Mr. Rochester playing charades.  Mr. Rochester out in the garden.)
 Now as I see it in trying to program that you give yourself a tremendously
difficult task -- namely, to provide the player with the vicarious
experience of falling in love and then going through various stages of
desparation and determination.  You also have to a) force the player to
choose the "correct" path for Jane [which leads to a sense of inevitability
a la Jigsaw] or b) account for the proliferating possibilities when the
player instead decides to commit bigamy or kill herself or tell Mr.
Rochester to go to hell.  And I still think you'd wind up with a
choose-your-own-adventure style of story, with only a very limited menu of
options in any given situation.

Probably better would be to emulate the *feel* of Jane Eyre -- the haunting
evocative quality of the setting and dreams -- and abandon the plot in favor
of something simpler and more direct.

ES


From nikiaj.backwards@pacbell.net Wed Nov 24 17:13:12 CET 1999
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Emily Short wrote:
> 
> Probably better would be to emulate the *feel* of Jane Eyre -- the haunting
> evocative quality of the setting and dreams -- and abandon the plot in favor
> of something simpler and more direct.

Exactly right. IF is _not_ conventional fiction, and conventional
fiction provides some very misleading models. Mood and setting are tools
that we can adapt directly. Plot is a problem, unless it's sandwiched
into an info-dump.

Of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. What we're doing
in this thread is theorizing about something that hasn't been done
(yet). Potentially a useful exercise, but I want to see how it plays out
in WinFrotz. If you have evocative theories, I'd urge you to put them to
the test! Even in a short work.

--Jim Aikin

*********************************
Those instances of it
which do not possess
the quality referred to
as 'swing' are meaningless.
                --Duke Ellington
*********************************


From jburneko@aludra.usc.edu Wed Nov 24 17:13:41 CET 1999
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From: Jesse Burneko <jburneko@aludra.usc.edu>
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Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:25:46 -0800
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On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Jim Aikin wrote:

> Emily Short wrote:
> > 
> > Probably better would be to emulate the *feel* of Jane Eyre -- the haunting
> > evocative quality of the setting and dreams -- and abandon the plot in favor
> > of something simpler and more direct.

No, see I'm not trying to ADAPT an existing work into IF that would be
hard but as you listed in the previous post about accounting for as many
decisions as possible I DON"T think you'd end up with a choose your own
adventure at all, because there is a much finer level of detail of
interaction.  Perhaps the big picture view of the plot might be choose
your own adventurish and I think that can't be avoided.  HOWEVER, each
scene will have subtle variations on it, plus the ORDER in which the
scences occur, etc.  Basically, when I design an IF of this nature (I have
many sketch ideas, nothing concrete, nothing near implementing) I plan the
plot like I would a static novel but then for each of the key scenes and
moments I have and think about: Well, what would happen if the main
character DIDN'T decide to do that and then try to follow as many of those
alternative paths as possible.

 > Exactly right. IF is _not_ conventional fiction, and conventional
> fiction provides some very misleading models. Mood and setting are tools
> that we can adapt directly. Plot is a problem, unless it's sandwiched
> into an info-dump.

I disagree.  I don't think you need infodumps or at least I think you can
do infodumps in a more interactive and engaging way.  Think about when
your friend is relating to you some important event that happened to you.
Do feel irritated because your friend isn't letting you talk?  When a
character on stage is giving a siloquey are you bored because the action
isn't moving?  No.  Why?  Because you are emotionally engaged in these
scenarios so, if well crafted an info dump will draw you in not put you
off.  Especially, if you CAN interupt it.  For example in the middle of
the friends story you can type> ASK Jane about <some aspect of her story>
which interupts her current info dump and puts her on another part of it.

> Of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. What we're
> doing in this thread is theorizing about something that hasn't been
> done (yet). Potentially a useful exercise, but I want to see how it
> plays out in WinFrotz. If you have evocative theories, I'd urge you to
> put them to the test! Even in a short work.

Well, I think MUSE: An Autume Romance came damn near close.  Infact MUSE
is currently my favorite IF interms of combining literary and technicial
technique.  Right up there are Tapestry and Photopia as well.  MUSE had
the right character ideas and Tapestry had the right decision ideas.  Now
they need to be combined and I'm working on it.  I don't want to blow it
so I'm tinking with the designs until I'm happy.

Jesse Burneko



From emshort@mindspring.com Wed Nov 24 17:13:54 CET 1999
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From: "Emily Short" <emshort@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:56:00 -0700
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>On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Jim Aikin wrote:
>
>> Emily Short wrote:
>> > 
>> > Probably better would be to emulate the *feel* of Jane Eyre -- the haunting
>> > evocative quality of the setting and dreams -- and abandon the plot in favor
>> > of something simpler and more direct.
>
>No, see I'm not trying to ADAPT an existing work into IF 

I understand that *you* are not suggesting such an adaptation -- this was in
answer to Kathleen's specific question about why I thought translating JE
would be difficult.

>> Of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. What we're
>> doing in this thread is theorizing about something that hasn't been
>> done (yet). Potentially a useful exercise, but I want to see how it
>> plays out in WinFrotz. If you have evocative theories, I'd urge you to
>> put them to the test! Even in a short work.
>
>Well, I think MUSE: An Autume Romance came damn near close.  Infact MUSE
>is currently my favorite IF interms of combining literary and technicial
>technique.  Right up there are Tapestry and Photopia as well.  MUSE had
>the right character ideas and Tapestry had the right decision ideas.  Now
>they need to be combined and I'm working on it.  I don't want to blow it
>so I'm tinking with the designs until I'm happy.

I admit I'm having trouble envisioning, from your description, exactly how
this would work, but I wish you luck -- it sounds like the end product would
be worthy, and I'm sure that *I* won't be the one to come up with it -- the
thought of putting any such thing into execution makes my head swim...


From reply@adamcadre.ac Wed Nov 24 17:14:30 CET 1999
Article: 66958 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Adam Cadre <ac@adamcadre.ac>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 01:43:19 -0800
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Jim Aikin wrote:
> Of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. What we're doing
> in this thread is theorizing about something that hasn't been done
> (yet). Potentially a useful exercise, but I want to see how it plays
> out in WinFrotz. If you have evocative theories, I'd urge you to put
> them to the test! Even in a short work.

Hooray!

I've been grumping elsewhere that I'm almost afraid to look through
raif some days.  Why?  Because every so often I'll think, "Hey, this
might be a good idea for a game" and start coding, and a few months
later, voila, a game.  Whereas on raif, folks will often post, "Hey,
you know what would make a good game? What if you could..."  My idea
now looks derivative, and it took the poster all of three minutes to
undermine months of work.

Note that I am *not* trying to suppress discussion, nor am I implying
any malice on the part of these posters, or anything like that.

But still, when people start blue-skying, I run for the bomb shelter.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Sammamish, WA
 http://adamcadre.ac


From erkyrath@netcom.com Wed Nov 24 17:14:53 CET 1999
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
Date: 24 Nov 1999 14:47:41 GMT
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Adam Cadre <ac@adamcadre.ac> wrote:
> 
> I've been grumping elsewhere that I'm almost afraid to look through
> raif some days.  Why?  Because every so often I'll think, "Hey, this
> might be a good idea for a game" and start coding, and a few months
> later, voila, a game.  Whereas on raif, folks will often post, "Hey,
> you know what would make a good game? What if you could..."  My idea
> now looks derivative, and it took the poster all of three minutes to
> undermine months of work.

You noticed the blurb I put on _Hunter_, right?
 
--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From ofdown@aol.compost Wed Nov 24 17:16:14 CET 1999
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>So, any thoughts?
>
>Jesse Burneko
>

Before I begin, I would like to start with a little story about my fifth
birthday...

Actually, I think the problem that you are running into is trying to compare
two very different mediums.  In a novel, you can write four pages about the
front porch, and people will read it because they are =reading=.  There aren't
any other expectations from a book.  You know exactly what to expect every time
you turn the page.  More text.

So why not four screens of text about the front porch?  Well, the answer is
obvious.  The first command typed after that will be "quit".  One of the
challenges of IF is being able to say a lot with very few words.  If you want
to include a lot of flowery background, it needs to be inset in every object
the player handles and allow the player to take in as much or as little as s/he
desires.

Just about everyone playing these works has virtually unlimited access to
fiction.  It's the interactive part that pulls us in.  What you probably want
to do is throw in an object like the old football with a little interesting tid
bit and a hint at where the player might find more info in this direction, like
visiting the backyard or the old barn, etc...

Like the main story, you need the sub plots to unfold.  For example:  You're
searching through an old box filled with Mary's things and run across a picture
of a young man who turns out to be her brother who can then pump for more
information (not to put to fine a point on it).

I hope you get the idea, because I've been typing way too long.  Thank you and
goodnight.


Trig
--
"This may look like a slab of liver, but really, it's an external brain pack!"


From jburneko@aludra.usc.edu Wed Nov 24 17:16:25 CET 1999
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From: Jesse Burneko <jburneko@aludra.usc.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:40:41 -0800
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On 23 Nov 1999, Trig wrote:

> Like the main story, you need the sub plots to unfold.  For example:  You're
> searching through an old box filled with Mary's things and run across a picture
> of a young man who turns out to be her brother who can then pump for more
> information (not to put to fine a point on it).
> 
> I hope you get the idea, because I've been typing way too long.  Thank you and
> goodnight.
> 

Yes, I do get the idea and this is a very good idea and the very thing I'm
looking for.  Thank you.

Jesse



From rri0189@attglobal.net Wed Nov 24 22:29:54 CET 1999
Article: 66979 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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Emily Short wrote:
> (Most
> Gothics are rich enough in setting to make fun I-F; I think, though, that
> something like Ann Radcliffe's _Mysteries of Udolpho_ [a prime specimen of
> the kind of nonsensical romance Austen was lampooning with _Northanger
> Abbey_] would be far *better* fodder for I-F than anything by any of the
> Brontes.

I always thought this passage from Jane's "Henry & Eliza" was classic
I-F.

    No sooner had Eliza entered her Dungeon than the first
  thought which occurred to her, was how to get out of it
  again.

    She went to the Door; but it was locked.  She looked at
  the Window; but it was barred with iron; disappointed in
  both her expectations, she dispaired of effecting her Escape,
  when she fortunately perceived in a Corner of her Cell, a
  small saw & Ladder of ropes.  When the saw she instantly
  went to work & in a few weeks had displaced every Bar but
  one to which she fastened the Ladder.

    A difficulty then occurred which for some time, she knew
  not how to obviate.  Her Children were too small to get
  down the Ladder by themselves, nor would it be possible
  for her to take them in her arms, when _she_ did.  At last she
  determined to fling down all her Cloathes, of which she had
  a large Quantity, & then having given them strict Charge
  not to hurt themselves, threw her Children after them.
  She herself with ease discended by the Ladder, at the
  bottom of which she had the pleasure of finding her little
  boys in perfect Health & fast asleep.

    Her wardrobe she now saw a fatal necessity of selling,
  both for the preservation of her Children & herself.  With
  tears in her eyes, she parted with these last reliques of her
  former Glory, & with the money she got for them, bought
  others more usefull, some playthings for Her Boys and a
  gold Watch for herself.

    But scarcely was she provided with the above-mentioned
  necessaries, than she began to find herself rather hungry,
  & had reason to think, by their biting off two of her fingers,
  that her Children were much in the same situation.

-- 
-John W. Kennedy
-rri0189@ibm.net
Compact is becoming contract
Man only earns and pays.  -- Charles Williams




From mfischer5@aol.com Wed Nov 24 22:30:29 CET 1999
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Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
From: "Emily Short" emshort@mindspring.com 

>My problem with Jane Eyre as I-F is that many of the turning points are
>purely internal and could not be expressed by external actions.

And many are not. I'd imagine it's a matter of choosing your battles wisely.

> Now as I see it in trying to program that you give yourself a tremendously
>difficult task -- namely, to provide the player with the vicarious
>experience of falling in love and then going through various stages of
>desparation and determination.  

That depends on what you feel is necessary in order to tell the tale. IF isn't
a novel, and there are things it doesn't do as well, that is true. But there
are things it does better. After Jane leaves Thornfield she ends up on a town
searching for food. This isn't that exciting to read about in the book, but
would carry over to IF particularly well, as a player might be more likely to
feel the desperation of not being able to find any food after trying many
doors, than a passive reader would be.  Thornfield Hall itself would be
wonderful in IF.

You also have to a) force the player to
>choose the "correct" path for Jane [which leads to a sense of inevitability
>a la Jigsaw] or b) account for the proliferating possibilities when the
>player instead decides to commit bigamy or kill herself or tell Mr.
>Rochester to go to hell.

That's true for any piece of IF. Certainly true for my WIP. I think I spend
more time trying to keep players from doing things than providing them things
TO do. And sometimes the ramifications can be expressed in a simple paragraph.
Go ahead. Let the player stay at Thornfield instead of leaving. Then have a
paragraph describing how she was murdered in her bed by the first wife. QED.

>Probably better would be to emulate the *feel* of Jane Eyre -- the haunting
>evocative quality of the setting and dreams -- and abandon the plot in favor
>of something simpler and more direct.

The plot being of a governess who falls in love with her master, finds out he's
married, runs away, and returns. I still don't see why you couldn't do it.
Players are willing to do all sorts of wierd things to win a game, why is
having your PC be attracted to an NPC so much wierder? Jane Eyre is actually
even easier on this point as Mr. Rochester pursues her instead of the other way
round.

Kathleen M. Fischer


From emshort@mindspring.com Thu Nov 25 10:29:47 CET 1999
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From: "Emily Short" <emshort@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:34:42 -0700
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----------
In article <19991124160157.15067.00000044@ng-fm1.aol.com>, mfischer5@aol.com
(MFischer5) wrote:

>>My problem with Jane Eyre as I-F is that many of the turning points are
>>purely internal and could not be expressed by external actions.
>
>And many are not. I'd imagine it's a matter of choosing your battles wisely.

I suppose I would say that if you only choose the external conflicts from
_Jane Eyre_, you drastically modify the nature of the plot -- making the
adaptation no longer _Jane Eyre_ at all.  But I don't think that arguing
over what makes a story itself is likely to yield anything, so I'll leave it
there.  I agree with you that there are elements from JE that would be
excellent to use (including the food search, as you mention.)

>You also have to a) force the player to
>>choose the "correct" path for Jane [which leads to a sense of inevitability
>>a la Jigsaw] or b) account for the proliferating possibilities when the
>>player instead decides to commit bigamy or kill herself or tell Mr.
>>Rochester to go to hell.
>
>That's true for any piece of IF. Certainly true for my WIP. I think I spend
>more time trying to keep players from doing things than providing them things
>TO do. And sometimes the ramifications can be expressed in a simple paragraph.
>Go ahead. Let the player stay at Thornfield instead of leaving. Then have a
>paragraph describing how she was murdered in her bed by the first wife. QED.

Okay -- but that's not very different from the ***You have changed the
course of history*** effect whenever you do The Wrong Thing in Jigsaw.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not picking on Jigsaw: I liked it a lot.  But the
game wasn't set up to deal effectively with the ramifications of any moral
choice other than the one Graham had selected, and that made the choice seem
a lot less like a choice.  It also didn't bother me so much because that was
still very much a puzzle game -- and also because one of the central themes
is the inevitability of a given fate.  Whereas I don't think that the
Railroad Plot would work as well for _Jane Eyre_ or many other works of its
ilk because a large part of what makes those stories good is the moral
growth of the main character.  If the I-F author keeps coming along and,
like a Bonzai artist, snipping off any unsuitable shoots, the main character
can only reach one outcome.  Free will?  What free will?  And if there is
only one set of choices that doesn't lead to an immediate "***You Have Done
The Wrong Thing***" message (however elegantly that is phrased), the value
of the moral choices is immediately obviated. 

>>Probably better would be to emulate the *feel* of Jane Eyre -- the haunting
>>evocative quality of the setting and dreams -- and abandon the plot in favor
>>of something simpler and more direct.
>
>The plot being of a governess who falls in love with her master, finds out he's
>married, runs away, and returns. I still don't see why you couldn't do it.
>Players are willing to do all sorts of wierd things to win a game, why is
>having your PC be attracted to an NPC so much wierder? Jane Eyre is actually
>even easier on this point as Mr. Rochester pursues her instead of the other way
>round.

I've played a bunch of games where the PC was attracted to an NPC, and vice
versa.  Many of them I even liked.  I got much guilty amusement from
Plundered Hearts.  But I have yet to play one where I was as engrossed
in/convinced by the love affair as I am by those in many books.  (What is it
that Rochester tells Jane?  "When so many miles come broad between us, I'm
afraid that cord of sympathy may break"?  Something like that.  I read it
when I was fourteen, which I suppose was an impressionable age, but it stuck
with me.  Over-the-top schlock it might be, but it's GOOD over-the-top
schlock and I defy any scene in current I-F to match it.)  It's not just a
question of getting the player to go along "in order to win"; it's also a
question of writing.  

Again, though, this is one of those situations where I would be totally
happy to have someone create a counterexample...

ES


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Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
From: "Emily Short" emshort@mindspring.com 
>I suppose I would say that if you only choose the external conflicts from
>_Jane Eyre_, you drastically modify the nature of the plot -- making the
>adaptation no longer _Jane Eyre_ at all.  But I don't think that arguing
>over what makes a story itself is likely to yield anything, so I'll leave
>it there. 

<aside> Have you seen the movie version with William Hurt? Horrible. Absolutely
horrible. How in the world they could slap the Jane Eyre name on it is beside
me.  It's not just a Readers Digest version, it's blatently wrong. </aside>

I don't think IF could make a *true* recreation of Jane Eyre as Bronte wrote
it. I don't think a movie could either (the best I've seen stars Timothy
Dalton). I do think that a story *like* Jane Eyre could be made with IF if the
author was careful to work with the strengths of the medium. I know that I'm
not capable of doing it.  :)  I'm a programmer that likes to write, not the
other way round. However, I simply don't see anything in the medium that
prohibits someone who is talented with words (hey, Aikin, are you listening?)
>from  creating a piece of *literature* in IF.

>Whereas I don't think that the Railroad Plot would work as well for _Jane 
>Eyre_ or many other works of its ilk because a large part of what makes 
>those stories good is the moral growth of the main character. 

Part of moral growth is the understanding of the ramifications on ones actions.
In "real life" we think these through in our heads "If I cross against the
light I might get to the maxi-mall faster, then again I could get run over by a
bus". In IF we allow the player the vicarious thrill of being bus bait.  :)  
<hmmm... not exactly a moral choice> How aboutL: If I become a bigamist it goes
against everything I have been taught. If I don't, I will be unhappy forever.
Bronte partially answered that question herself when she considers Rochesters
mistress who bore Adel (sp) - Jane would be no better if she remained with him.
One could actually show that. Heavy handed, it's true, but it could be done.

> "When so many miles come broad between us, I'm
>afraid that cord of sympathy may break"?  Something like that.  I read it
>when I was fourteen, which I suppose was an impressionable age, but it stuck
>with me.  Over-the-top schlock it might be, but it's GOOD over-the-top
>schlock and I defy any scene in current I-F to match it.)  

There isn't any, that I've seen. And I'm afraid I don't know anyone who could
write it and pull it off as nicely either. Maybe it's a 19th century thing.

>It's not just a question of getting the player to go along "in order to win"; 
>it's also a question of writing.  

Absolutely. But the question remains. If we had such a writer in our midst,
would the medium support their writing?  :)

Kathleen



From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Nov 25 10:31:55 CET 1999
Article: 67020 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
Date: 25 Nov 1999 05:09:18 GMT
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Emily Short <emshort@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>You also have to a) force the player to
>>>choose the "correct" path for Jane [which leads to a sense of inevitability
>>>a la Jigsaw] or b) account for the proliferating possibilities when the
>>>player instead decides to commit bigamy or kill herself or tell Mr.
>>>Rochester to go to hell.
>>
>>That's true for any piece of IF. Certainly true for my WIP. I think I spend
>>more time trying to keep players from doing things than providing them things
>>TO do. And sometimes the ramifications can be expressed in a simple paragraph.
>>Go ahead. Let the player stay at Thornfield instead of leaving. Then have a
>>paragraph describing how she was murdered in her bed by the first wife. QED.
> 
> Okay -- but that's not very different from the ***You have changed the
> course of history*** effect whenever you do The Wrong Thing in Jigsaw.

It's not even very different from Zork, where if you do the wrong thing
you find yourself stuck two hours later. Or just killed.

There are author-approved endings, and there are terminal game-states that
aren't endings. I rarely see IF players get them confused.
 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not picking on Jigsaw: I liked it a lot.  But the
> game wasn't set up to deal effectively with the ramifications of any moral
> choice other than the one Graham had selected, and that made the choice seem
> a lot less like a choice.

I think there's a weird little gap between the choices open to the
*player* and the choices open to the *protagonist*. The player is making
choices for the protagonist, and those choices are (to me) real choices,
as long as they're free at the time. Even if the game itself eventually
leads the player to a single ending (by making all but one option turn out
Incorrect.) It's still a story about a character with free will.

I don't know whether to call that a delusion common to IF, or just a
convention of the genre. But it does work for me, and it's what I try to
build into my games.

> Over-the-top schlock it might be, but it's GOOD over-the-top
> schlock and I defy any scene in current I-F to match it.)  It's not just a
> question of getting the player to go along "in order to win"; it's also a
> question of writing.  

Sure. Good writing is always a necessity. I for damn sure don't know how
to write a love story.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From mollems@mindspring.com Thu Nov 25 11:41:53 CET 1999
Article: 66735 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "M. Sean Molley" <mollems@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Suggested Changes To The Competition
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 23:42:58 -0500
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Greetings...

Disclaimer: I was one of the folks who was around when the competition was
first organized, and we had a lot of discussion over what form it should
take.  So I am probably biased towards the current format.  Nevertheless:

<petroeh@hotmail.com> wrote:

> 37.  That's a lot of games.  That's a LOT of games.  More games,
> in my opinion, than you could possibly expect a sane man,
> woman, or child to play in a six week period.

I agree completely with this statement.  Whizzard, I'm sure, imagined that
the competition would someday get this large (he has always thought big, as
_Avalon_ ... er, _Once and Future_ illustrates) but I certainly wouldn't
have imagined it.  Extending the voting period would be the only way to
ensure that more people play more games, which is really what the
competition is supposed to be about -- not really finding "the best" game at
all, although it is always good to discover new authors and great games, but
rather more simple: encouraging as many people as possible to write games.
IF is like many other media -- the only way to get anything "out" of writing
an adventure game is if somebody else plays it.

The only concern I have is that three months (or whatever) is an awfully
long time.  If I play Game 1 on 1 September and don't play Game 37 until 30
November, how will that impact my ratings?  I can hardly remember Game 1 at
that point: will I fairly rate Game 37 in the context of the games I played
so long ago?

Of course, one could argue that the same problem happens now, or even worse,
most reviewers simply don't play most of the entries.  I think lengthening
the voting period would be more beneficial than harmful.  Perhaps it should
be calculated each year as a function of the number of entries received?
2.5 days times the number of entries or something similar.

> Each game entered into the competition is the result of
> someone's time and labor, and each and every game therefore
> deserves the full attention of those who wish to play, vote, and
> review it.

I couldn't have said it better than myself.  Which is exactly why I disagree
with the following statement:

> With an expanded three month voting period, the worst rule of
> the competition could also be revoked: the dreaded two hour
> limit.  This limit is EVIL!  What sort of message is it sending?

The two-hour rule is the heart and soul of the entire competition.  It
accomplishes, in my opinion, exactly what it was intended to accomplish --
to encourage more people to write games, because they know they don't _have_
to enter a "Curses" or "The Legend Lives" or "So Far" just to have a shot at
being considered.

> Next time, don't work so hard. Don't try so hard.  Don't make
> your game so long or so challenging or so good.  Compromise
> your work's quality so more people finish it."

No, no, no.  That is exactly NOT the message that the rule sends.  The
competition was never intended to be about large games.  Never.  And it
never should be -- at least not _this_ competition.  If somebody else wants
to start an annual "Best IF Game of the Year" contest, with no time limit,
fine.  (Of course, one could argue that the XYZZY Awards already serve that
very purpose.)

Besides, who says that a short game must necessarily be of low quality?  I
think the past years' entrants have more than disproved that theory.  It
takes just as much work (if not more) to make an excellent short game as it
does to make a poor large game.

The two-hour rule serves the following purposes (among others):

1.  The rule makes it more likely that prospective authors will actually
_complete_ their submissions in time for the competition.  I speak from
experience here -- I've got a huge game lying in pieces on my hard drive
that originated in TADS 1 and will only see the light of day if my fear of
Adam Thornton's death threats overcomes my natural inertia.  :)

By forcing authors to organize the game so that it can be finished in under
two hours, the rule makes it far more likely that the design of a potential
entry will be small enough that it can realistically be finished.  Without
it, this year we might have had 2 entries and 35 "well, I started a
competition entry, but..."

2.  By limiting the size of games, the rule encourages authors to
experiment.  If you don't have to invest 1,000 hours in coding your entry,
maybe you will try something that hasn't been done before.  (This year's
competition entry concerning the art exhibit is an excellent example, and a
very interesting work.  I would be interested to know if its author would
have entered it "as is" knowing that it might be up against huge,
"traditional" adventure games.)

3.  At least originally, we thought that limiting the size of games would
also make the reviewers' job easier.  Even with a three-month voting period,
I sincerely doubt anybody could honestly and fairly review 37
"feature-length" games.  (Of course, I've already argued that removing the
rule would result in fewer entries, not more, so perhaps the total review
work would remain constant, but I would rather see more shorter entries than
fewer larger ones.)

Now, it may be the case that were the rule removed, the vast majority of
competition entries would continue to be short.  However, the _purpose_ of
the competition was to encourage _more_ people to write _more_ games and
share them with _more_ players.  Forcing the games to be smaller can only
help with this.

Besides, there is nothing stopping authors who do create large, elaborate
works from releasing them at any time.  If I were an author of such a game
(which I still like to delude myself into thinking I will be someday) I
would not _want_ to release it as part of the competition.  There are too
many other games waiting to be played at the same time!  I would, in fact,
wait and release my "magnum opus" as chronologically far away from the
competition as possible, to ensure that there would be a minimal number of
other new releases out there to compete with it for the community's
attention.

> so many people seem to have said, "Ah! I shall not bother!  I
> don't care whether the story makes sense at the end, I'll just
> stop playing right now and rate it knowing only half the game!"

That is exactly what people _should_ have done, unfortunately for Halothane
(which I admit I have not played).  The competition rule is quite clear on
this point: judges must rate the game after two hours.  With 36 other games
to play, it is less likely that a judge would play the game to its
conclusion if it were much longer than two hours anyway.

Surely Halothane's author must have known this, since it's not like there
are a lot of other rules to confuse the issue, and chose to enter the game
anyway.  If it was too long for the competition as it stands, then the game
should have been held out and released afterwards, when it would surely have
been played and discussed.

Not to pick on Halothane, which as I said I have not played; but you brought
it up.  I'm sure it is a fine game, but if it was too long for the
competition and the author knew it going in, well, you take your chances.

Anyway, I agree that the voting period should be increased -- I hate the
idea that people are spending their effort completing games and then few or
no judges are playing those games.  In addition to being contrary to the
spirit of the competition -- which has always been that every game should be
considered fully -- it also biases the results.  I would not be comfortable
voting in the competition if I had not played all of the entrants (and
therefore I did not vote, though I did play some of the games.)

The two-hour rule, however, is working beautifully -- and doing exactly what
we hoped it would "lo these many years ago".  It's great to see how much the
competition has grown over the years, and I think a large part of that
growth can be attributed to the fact that the two-hour rule by its very
presence gives authors encouragement to enter, because they _know_ they have
a realistic chance of completing an entry that will be on a more or less
equal footing with every other entry, at least in terms of length.

Sean




From adam@princeton.edu Thu Nov 25 11:42:11 CET 1999
Article: 66758 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: adam@princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Suggested Changes To The Competition
Date: 19 Nov 1999 16:41:41 GMT
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In article <812k18$cev$1@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>,
M. Sean Molley <mollems@mindspring.com> wrote:
>1.  The rule makes it more likely that prospective authors will actually
>_complete_ their submissions in time for the competition.  I speak from
>experience here -- I've got a huge game lying in pieces on my hard drive
>that originated in TADS 1 and will only see the light of day if my fear of
>Adam Thornton's death threats overcomes my natural inertia.  :)

You know, I've been waiting *very* patiently for _Challenge of the Czar_.
(As well as, *cough*, _Fool's Errand_, but no matter).  I haven't even
threatened you with removal of your lungs in, like, a year.

So, let me borrow a page from the Robb Sherwin school of rhetoric, and just
gently remind you,

"Stop being a total assjack and finish the damn game, and release it, or me
and my buddies from the Delayed-games Urgent Metatarsal Breaking And
Stomping Society will have to pay you a little visit, if you know what I
mean, you mewling shitwank."

Adam

-- 
adam@princeton.edu 
"My eyes say their prayers to her / Sailors ring her bell / Like a moth
mistakes a light bulb / For the moon and goes to hell."  -- Tom Waits


From graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 25 13:25:44 CET 1999
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From: Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:00:41 +0000
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In article <81hrqv$6cd$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, Emily Short
<URL:mailto:emshort@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Okay -- but that's not very different from the ***You have changed the
> course of history*** effect whenever you do The Wrong Thing in Jigsaw.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not picking on Jigsaw: I liked it a lot.  But the
> game wasn't set up to deal effectively with the ramifications of any moral
> choice other than the one Graham had selected, and that made the choice seem
> a lot less like a choice.  It also didn't bother me so much because that was
> still very much a puzzle game -- and also because one of the central themes
> is the inevitability of a given fate.

Yes, that's a very fair criticism.  It's true that "Jigsaw" is
quite "closed", and true also that this is intentional for vaguely
artistic reasons.  But pragmatism came into it, too.  An earlier
draft involved puzzles mixed far more freely across different
regions of the game, with heaps of going backwards and forwards.
It was intolerably difficult and also rather foolish (like "Curses",
although I think the whimsy of the latter just about gets away
with this).  The key step in developing "Jigsaw", I now realise,
was when I decided that objects from one time zone could not be
taken to another (with certain logical exceptions).  Most of
the feeling of closure stems from this, but it also made the game
playable rather than defeatingly gigantic.

-- 
Graham Nelson | graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom



From okblacke@my-deja.com Thu Nov 25 14:04:20 CET 1999
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From: okblacke@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Competition Ethics
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 19:06:23 GMT
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In article <FLFHL0.GwJ@world.std.com>,
  buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barrett) wrote:
> [stuff, and then this]
>
> Anyhow, if you think there are too many games to judge during the
> competition, the best thing would be to convince as many people as
> possible to vote 1 on the games which shouldn't have been submitted
> for the competition (I'd argue for the incomplete, unplaytested,
> unpolished ones are the best candidates--and publically berate and
> humiliate the authors on r.g.i-f). This would probably reduce the
> number of submissions the following year, although probably at too
> great a cost. (Personally, I consider the submission of poorly
> playtested IF to show a lack of respect on the part of the author
> for the playing community, and this was reflected in my voting.)
>
> If you think the total time across all games is too long but don't
> want fewer games, don't encourage longer games, encourage shorter
> games. Shorten the time limit. Or, more simply, convince as many
> judges as possible to vote short, polished, well-implemented games
> higher than longer not-as-well-polished games, and to take public
> stands on the issue in places where prospective authors will hear
> about it. I personally think this is the right thing to do, but I
> noticed one (apparently highly-respected) reviewer whose votes
> appeared to be correlated on the coarsest scale with the size of
> the game, and nobody responded to my various comments on this issue
> in my reviews, so I suspect I'm alone in believing this appropriate.

Well, I wasn't going to bring this up right away but: I have to admit
I cringed when I read that Ian Finley submitted "Life on Beal Street",
with the intention of submitting a really bad game.

This is the first time I've been able to clear my schedule to play the
IF comp games before the judging period. (I try to play the ones that
seem to generate the most discussion afterwards.)  In the first week I
got through five or six games, and halfway through another one.  (I
didn't vote because by the time I realized I wasn't going to play
anymore, I had forgotten that I had played the minimum number.)  I was
well on my way to getting through most of the games.

Then I stopped.  (Ironically, on one of the better games.)  Most of
those first games I played were buggy and rife with spelling errors.
That, combined with a fair amount of "I know what I'm supposed to do but
not how I'm supposed to phrase it" took a lot of the wind out of my
sails.

I don't mean to turn this into a super-serious discussion of ethics, and
I'm not much for public humiliation, but I wonder about some of these
known-fatal-bug entries receiving nines and tens from some judges.

Just because this is a hobby for us doesn't mean we shouldn't behave
professionally.

What I'm taking away from this comp is a different way of looking at it.
When I started I naively thought I would play each game randomly,
according to comp99, for precisely two hours, come up with a score, and
move on.  I think next year, I'm going to immediately move on if I hit a
bug or a spelling error.  Maybe even if I hit what I think is an
incomplete implementation.  If I have time, I'll come back to the games
I didn't complete--but the games I get through on the first pass will
all get higher scores.
--
[ok]


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Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Competition Ethics
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In article <817kh4$btc$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  okblacke@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> You're absolutely right and I should have
clarified that point.
>
> I still cringe, though.  It's one thing to take
70 hours out of your
> life to sincerely evaluate a group of items, and
another to do it
> knowing that somewhere in the pile is a product
which, through sheer
> random chance, might resonate with you--and end
up making you look like
> a boob for liking it.

    And here I suppose I should clarify myself as
well.  I've called Beal Street a joke because
that's how I approached writing it (NOT, I should
point out, because I thought of it as a joke
played on the IF community).  I thought, "Gee,
wouldn't it be funny to come up with a PC who was
a complete snob and write a game using that sort
of pretentious tone?"  I know, I know, I did that
with the Student in Exhibition, but it was too fun
to do just once, and I thought I'd try for more
subtlty.  I thought people would primarily like it
for the same reason I enjoyed "Chix Dig Jerks",
that is, once in a while, it's fun to assume the
persona of a complete assjack.  It's why I act for
a living ;)  However, I've been honestly surprised
and gratified that some people were able to tap
into the humanity that was under there and find
something redeeming in the game.  When it comes to
emotional response to a piece, any sincere
reaction is completely viable; what the author
originally intended really has no bearing on it.

> Again, I don't want to dramaticize this, since I
didn't hear any hoots
> of derision against people who liked "Beal
Street"--and if anything it
> showed the generosity of spirit (and maturity)
among those who play the
> comp games toward those who write them.

     Entirely.  For me it's the players that make
it worthwhile for me to work in this timeconsuming
art form and I feel compelled to do so because of
how wonderfully gracious, supportive, and
forgiving an audience it is. Thanks again.

Ian Finley


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From f_ramsberg@my-deja.com Thu Nov 25 14:06:43 CET 1999
Article: 66746 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: f_ramsberg@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Suggested Changes To The Competition
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:16:56 GMT
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Greetings,

In article <812cht$pp7$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  petroeh@hotmail.com wrote:
> The Interactive Fiction Competition has, since the original contest
> held in 1995, grown to become indisputably the biggest event in
> interactive fiction of every year. Once the frenetic voting period
> ends, R.G.I-F and R.A.I-F burst with new life.

This, IMHO, is the biggest problem of the competition. Not the new
life that the community bursts with _after_ the voting period, but
rather the lack of it during the voting period and the months before
the competition. Extend the voting period, make the games bigger and
voila -- you've made this problem a lot bigger as well.

When I was six years old, I loved licorice. I never had any money
to buy licorice though, except when I got a little from my parents.
Then we went on vacation, and it started with a ferry trip. On
the ferry I got a major amount of money (probably like a few dollars),
and I went straight to the tax-free shop and bought all the licorice
I could carry. Which was more than I could eat. But I ate it anyway.
Believe me when I say I didn't touch licorice for eight full years
after that. I like it again now, but it took 10-12 years after that
experience.

Why am I telling you this? Well, exchange licorice for IF games in
the story above, and the story could be about the IF competition
instead.

If you play a great IF game at the beginning of October, would
you care to wait for three months or more before you can discuss it
in your community? And would you like to always have the stress of
finishing the games you are playing so you can rate them and get
on with your near infinite list of games you have to play during
the voting period?

Looking at other media, would you like the Academy Awards to become
even more dominant than they are today? Would you like all movies
to be released on the same date, and should it be forbidden to
discuss the movies during the three months of voting that follow?
And then 95% of the movie theatres would close during nine months
again, since almost no movies are released. Also, do you think all
movies should be produced with the single goal of appealing to the
kind of people who volunteer as judges? Should movie making only be
about competing?

And should IF?

Your proposition is well meant -- it intends to promote IF. But I
don't think it would do IF any good. I think the right way to go
is to accept that all games aren't in the competition. Make the
competition less dominant than it is today. Perhaps you could
split it up into several smaller competitions that are spread
out over the year, maybe for different genres. And let the
IF community prosper the whole year through, like it was before
the competition grew huge!

Best regards,

/Fredrik


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


From reply@adamcadre.ac Thu Nov 25 14:07:07 CET 1999
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From: Adam Cadre <ac@adamcadre.ac>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Suggested Changes To The Competition
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 02:22:47 -0800
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Bryan the Trotting Krip wrote:
> In my opinion, AT LEAST a three month voting period was needed for
> this year's competition.

I see that other people have agreed with this statement, so I thought
I'd reply to this message yet again.

There was a three-month voting period for Comp97.  It was hated.  It
was hated by authors because it meant that a full quarter of a calendar
year passed between the time they released their games and the time
they got any feedback.  It was hated by players because it meant they
could play a game in October and not be able to discuss it until
January.  I even recall the organizer declaring that the extended
voting period was a bad idea.

Part of the problem here is the level of priority people give to this
hobby.  When the comp games are released, some people make playing them
the thing they do that week; others can just barely manage to squeeze
a game or two into their weekends.  Six weeks has proven to be as good
a compromise as could reasonably be expected: enough to let members of
the latter group play a fair sampling of games without the members of
the former group or the authors getting too itchy.

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Sammamish, WA
 http://adamcadre.ac


From adam@princeton.edu Thu Nov 25 14:07:18 CET 1999
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From: adam@princeton.edu (Adam J. Thornton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Suggested Changes To The Competition
Date: 19 Nov 1999 16:46:22 GMT
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The three-month thing sucked in Comp97.

I think, if anything, all that needs be done is to suggest that really,
honestly, judges are under no obligation to play all the games.  And I
think that was done quite successfully this year, with the "vote if you
play 5" rule.

I myself should have played fewer games in more depth rather than
scrambling to the walkthrough as early as I did in most cases.

Adam


-- 
adam@princeton.edu 
"My eyes say their prayers to her / Sailors ring her bell / Like a moth
mistakes a light bulb / For the moon and goes to hell."  -- Tom Waits


From dmss100@york.ac.uk Thu Nov 25 14:09:04 CET 1999
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From: Dennis Smith <dmss100@york.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Suggested Changes To The Competition
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:50:52 +0000
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Oh hell, I'm going to have to break my self-enforced silence because I
have strong feelings on this one. (And this after managing to ignore the
more recent Ebullion tablets thread!) Why couldn't this have waited till
some time next year? <grumble>

OK, Sean and Adam have answered some of the main points. Allow me to add
my own not-inconsiderable (230 pounds) weight.

On Fri, 19 Nov 1999 Brian wrote (roughly - pardon my editing):

 > 37.  That's a lot of games.  That's more games than you could
 > possibly expect a sane man, woman, or child to play in six weeks

Last year there were (checks) 27 games. 1997 - 35 games. 1996 - 27
games. Things aren't so much changed.

 > If each game is to be given a fair chance in the competition, enough
 > time must be given to allow each judge to play every game

No. If each game is to have "a fair chance", there must be enough judges
such that a substantial number of them get around to reviewing the game 
at their leisure. That's why we have the comp99 game-order randomizer. 
And this year, there were 156 voters. That's pretty darned healthy.

 > In my opinion, AT LEAST a three month voting period was needed

Three months doesn't work, as has been explained before.

I've always advocated relatively short voting periods. Most importantly,
it means that, rather obviously, the start and end of the competition are
quite close. This is good for the authors, in terms of not having to wait
for feedback. It is also - surprise! - good for the judges, who don't have
to cast their minds back over the months to adequately compare their first
and last games.

Now you may say that this prevents people from judging all the games. This
is certainly true, and to this I have to say: "Good". In my opinion, if
people think that they've got NO chance of reviewing ALL the games, then
hopefully they'll settle for judging as many as they REALLY have time for
instead. There's a big distinction here. Even if they only have time for,
say, ten games: it means they won't be rushing the latter games in their
list; it means they're less likely to 'burn out' (thanks for the licorice
analogy Fredrik - I have a similar story about dark chocolate) which
can't help much in terms of "fair" voting.

At the end of the competition, these hypothetical judges each submit their
ten votes, and then, when the scores come out, can see from the list of
remaining games which ones they can sit down and enjoy and which they
might safely ignore. If each of this year's judges had placed ten votes,
that would be 1560 votes, which, split over the games, comes to just over
_42_ votes for each game. A very reasonable number. Not to mention the
answer to life, the universe and everything. 

 > the worst rule of the competition could also be revoked: the dreaded
 > two hour limit.  This limit is EVIL!

Dictatorial repression and small-minded intolerance are evil. Minions of
Hell are Evil. The two hour time limit, on the other hand, is an innocent
bystander that you've just shot to death because you don't know why it's
there.

There are many good reasons for the two-hour limit. Some of them are the
reasons it was instigated, some have occurred to people since it was
introduced. For instance, it's easier to beta-test a small game than a big
sprawling masterpiece. Now. Think about that one. Need I say more?

The two-hour limit gives people a relatively easy target. Newbie
programmers might never finish programming anything if they've only ever
seen Curses, Jigsaw, Lost NY, Grip and all. If they're aiming lower,
you'll see dozens of completed games. It gives people a start. 

It means you're _not_ competing against people who've been coding
something over the last three years. That's got to be a good thing. It
also means you see more experimental pieces. Look at some of the real
masterpieces from competitions past. If there were no two-hour rule, would
some of these ever have seen the light of day at all? 

There is - sort of - a competition for longer games. The Xyzzy awards
allow judges to reward all games, regardless of size. And those games are
judged over - get this - a whole year! Maybe that's what you really want.

 > "Compromise your work's quality so more people finish it."

No. A well-written short story should have as much quality as a
well-written novel. But with a short story, you've got to really pack it
in. There's an art to writing really good short IF. There's no way you can
reasonably excuse the failures of a short work just because it's short.
If anything, short works should be better polished. It's easier to make a 
button shine than a big brass lamp.

There is no doubt that competition entries get a disproportionate amount
of attention. This isn't a problem that needs addressing. Not at all. 
It's a very good thing. We should, as Adam has made very clear, be
addressing the problem of most other IF getting disproportionately little
attention. His ideas are well worth pursuing. 

 > I'm interested in hearing anyone's thoughts on this.

Well, this is a resume of my overblown opinion. Take it with a pinch of
salt but be aware that there _are_ reasons that the competition has
resisted most changes over the years. 


Tsk. While I'm on my soap-box, it's my turn to express congratulations to
everyone who managed to get an entry into the competition, and especially
to Laura, Dan, Neil and other high-fliers. And hearty slaps on the backs
to everyone involved with running things, especially Stephen, for all the
organisational work, and Mark, for vote counting - I have to say the two
of you were quite _astonishingly_ fast at making the games and then the
results available. 

<relurking; see you next year!>

-- 
Den



From erkyrath@netcom.com Thu Nov 25 14:48:16 CET 1999
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Suggested Changes To The Competition
Date: 19 Nov 1999 15:25:39 GMT
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Dan Schmidt <dfan@thecia.net> wrote:
> Another solution to the problem of too many games in too little time,
> which I'm reluctant to bring up because I think it's been discussed to
> death before, is to limit the number of games.
> 
> The way I would do this is to have two voting periods.  The first
> voting period is 4-5 weeks, say (since for this stage we're just
> expecting the really psyched players that Adam mentioned).  Votes are
> totalled and ordered, and 11th through 37th places are announced.
> The relative ranking of the top ten games is NOT.

Actually, it would be better to have slightly different voting rules. You
can nominate as many games as you want, but you don't rank them at all.
The top 10 nomination-getters become finalists.
 
> Then these ten 'finalists' are announced, and there's another 3 week
> voting period, this time for only those ten games.  People who voted
> in the first period can vote again.  These votes are then used to rank
> places 1 through 10.

I initially reacted "I hate this idea", but in fact, I don't hate it.

I'm not sure whether I *support* it, though.

Pros: It still gets a lot of attention even for the games that don't make
the cut. (The key is that everyone posts their reviews for the
non-finalists as soon as the first round results are announced.) 

- And it gives people a way to play fewer games and still feel like
they're playing the real contenders.

Cons: The first round would still have to be five or six weeks, I think.
(I *was* a really psyched player this year, but it still took me five
weeks to play 33 games.) So the finalists are still looking at more than
two months delay before they get real feedback. 

- The "reviewing/discussing crappy games" period will be vaguely
depressing (especially for the authors).
 
- In the current system, people *can* go back and play the comp winners
afterward. What your suggestion really means is that people with little
time will play the best games *during voting*, as opposed to a random
sampling of the games. (Which is what happens now.) This may not be a big
enough improvement to be worth it.

> That leaves the question of public discussion.  An 8 week total period
> is probably small enough that we could hold off on all discussion
> until the whole thing was over.  I think that allowing the phase one
> voters to write reviews between phases one and two might actually work
> pretty well, but that may be contrary to the spirit of the
> competition.

As I said, I disagree. If we did that, the non-finalist authors would be
in pretty poor shape. Told nothing but "you lose" for three weeks, and
then a burst of discussion which is focussed on the games they didn't
write. I wouldn't put anyone through that.

The "no discussion" convention is to avoid biasing the results; when it
can't affect the results, there's no problem.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From jce@seasip.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 26 10:13:50 CET 1999
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From: jce@seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Inform] Inform 6 Web Page Updated
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Graham Nelson <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>A certain ring of appearing on breakfast television as a sex
>therapist, perhaps.

  I should think the IF archive contains enough player characters to keep a 
sex therapist gainfully employed. 

 >TELL DOCTOR GRAHAM ABOUT DREAMS

  You launch into a detailed explanation of the strange dreams you've been
 having. Before you've got halfway through the first one, he interrupts you.

  "Well, the image of the dolmen is an obvious symbol of sexual repression,
 and the symbology of the woman who doesn't notice you should be fairly 
 obvious. Now, I suggest you take your wife out for a short holiday and 
 try to work through the difficulties in your relationship. Have you 
 considered a weekend in Paris?"
  Before you can make any reply, the continuity announcer goes into 
her spiel for the start of a commercial break.

  "Coming up next..."
  "I'm in love with a houseplant - can we make this relationship work?"
  "I feel compelled to hitch-hike in the nude."
  "My girlfriend doesn't share my fantasy of feeding people to lions."
  "The only cure for Stiffy Makane: amputation..."

   Before you can hear exactly what Doctor Graham plans to amputate, you 
 are hustled out of the studio by the floor manager.

  *** You end up more depressed than before you went on the show ***

--
John Elliott


From reply@adamcadre.ac Fri Nov 26 14:06:01 CET 1999
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From: Adam Cadre <ac@adamcadre.ac>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Being John Malkovich (No spoilers)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 04:08:59 -0800
Organization: Rule #1 is, you do not talk about the Organization.
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Sean Barrett wrote:
>   Being John Malkovich: a biography (or autobiography) of John
>      Malkovich
>   Being John Malkovich: the tale of a Walter Mitty type who dreams of
>      being a relatively famous actor
>   Being John Malkovich: a SCI-FI story in which aliens abduct a number
>      of human BEINGS, one of whom is Mr. Malkovich, whom they label
>      with the title etc. etc.

Or it could be a throwaway.  Maybe the protagonist is a bald, dumpy
guy whose workplace is full of younger, less dumpy people, and at one
point he mutters, "I'm a John Malkovich in a world full of John
Cusacks" -- and this is the only mention of Malkovich in the film.
This sort of thing happens all the time -- "Fargo" didn't take place
in Fargo, "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf" isn't about people scared
by stream-of-consciousness, etc.  I remember my brother once grumbling
that "you'll be reading this 300-page book and on page 215 the narrator
mentions that her shoes need to be cleaned and that's the only mention
of the shoes in the whole book but the book is called MY DIRTY SHOES.
What the hell is that?"

  -----
 Adam Cadre, Sammamish, WA
 http://adamcadre.ac


From reply@adamcadre.ac Fri Nov 26 14:48:03 CET 1999
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From: Adam Cadre <ac@adamcadre.ac>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Protagonist free will [was: IF Design Issue]
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 05:05:08 -0800
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Emily Short wrote:
> Particularly troublesome in this regard are those games in which the
> plot demands that you do something wrong/unpleasant.  You (the player)
> know that this is a bad idea, but the game shunts you down that path
> and then later requests that you regret taking it.

I prefer discussing concrete instances of phenomena to discussing the
abstract phenomena themselves, which can be tough when not everyone has
played the same set of games.  I hope enough people have played the
games I want to discuss here that I'm not just wasting everyone's
time...

[spoilers for LITTLE BLUE MEN follow]







I believe it was Mary Kuhner who pointed out that the optimal ending
>from  the player's perspective is not the one in which things work out
best for the player-character, but that which wraps up the best and
most fulfilling story.  Thus, the "best" outcome for the PC in LITTLE
BLUE MEN -- filing the papers away like a good drone and learning to
love himself -- isn't really any good for the player: four turns and
out is no fun.  So you and your character can often be working at
cross purposes.

The exception here would be a game with truly equal branching paths
that never re-converge.  Nothing in IF is coming to mind -- someday I
will finish PANTHEON, someday, someday -- but think of a Choose Your
Own Adventure book: it's entirely possible that readers could follow
every path and still disagree as to which is best, depending on their
tastes.

[spoilers for VARICELLA follow]







Now, VARICELLA sounds like the sort of game you had in mind in the
passage I quoted.  The game doesn't really offer the opportunity for
moral choice: either you allow the PC's inclinations to direct your
choices, or you set the game aside.  (Or you can always >WAKE UP, but
this isn't entirely unlike filing away those papers.)  And yes, in the
end, the PC is punished.  But is the player meant to stare at her
screen and cry, "What have I done?"  Nah, not really.  Sure, the ending
is meant to function partly as a reminder that, just in case you've
forgotten, the Primo's actions aren't deserving of a reward.  But the
*player's* actions?  The player has done nothing more vicious than type
on a computer.  She hasn't even made any questionable moral choices,
since the game doesn't offer any real ethical choice.  So she isn't
meant to feel regret, and she *is* rewarded -- rewarded with a fitting
ending to a story about a nasty man in a nastier world.  At least,
that's the intention; whether it works is for the players to decide.

Now, I suppose one could argue that not setting the game aside is
itself a questionable moral choice.  There is an Austrian movie called
FUNNY GAMES, which-- er, better add this for those who want to stop
here:

[spoilers for FUNNY GAMES]







The premise of FUNNY GAMES is that two polite young men break into a
house and torture and murder a suburban family.  That's the whole movie.
And the killers repeatedly address the camera to tell you the viewer
that you have chosen of your own free will to witness this pain, that
you're free to walk out of the theater, that if you're still watching
then you must consider the suffering of others to be fine entertainment,
etc.

I personally don't think VARICELLA is quite the same thing, though I
suppose there are similarities.  Unlike the creators of FUNNY GAMES,
I *don't* want you to prove your virtue by turning it off; I didn't
cram the game world with hundreds of years of history just so people
could play for three turns and delete the program.  It therefore would
be silly of me to chastise the player for having had the courtesy to
play through to the end, and I don't think I have; the protagonist
gets his comeuppance, but he was around long before the player showed
up to scoot him around for a couple hours.
 
  -----
 Adam Cadre, Sammamish, WA
 http://adamcadre.ac


From emshort@mindspring.com Fri Nov 26 22:47:08 CET 1999
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From: "Emily Short" <emshort@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:17:17 -0700
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----------
In article <81l4lt$ge1$1@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>, Andrew Plotkin
<erkyrath@netcom.com> wrote:

>> 1) Background (as addressed by Jesse): how do we teach the player enough
>> about the PC to make the story work?
>
>I, a fairly stereotypical geek, mostly read sci-fi and fantasy. (Which
>some would say are "not literature" by their very definition... heh. And I
>*haven't* read _Jane Eyre_, so pardon my leaping in...) 

I don't think this was meant to be a Bronte fest per se.  And I think there
are some works of fantasy and SF that are fairly advanced in character
development (Octavia Butler's _Wild Seed_ comes to mind; early Orson Scott
Card; _Doomsday Book_; Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar stuff.  Even something
relatively concept-based like _Diamond Age_.)

>Anyway, those
>genres are naturally loaded with techniques and conventions for conveying
>huge amounts of background information quickly. Those seem to carry over
>to IF easily enough -- at least for sci-fi and fantasy games.

Sure -- though I think it's harder to tell the player something about the
PC's own background in a way that will be convincing and not absurdly
expository.  ["Your mother stands here.  She is a woman of medium height
with flashing brown eyes, but a dowdy taste in dress.  Seeing her there
reminds you of the time on your eighth birthday when she tripped bringing in
the cake and landed you with a faceful of chocolate frosting in front of all
your friends.  She did her best to make it up to you but that incident was a
by-word on the playground for years."]  After all, who thinks these things
about Mom every time she walks in the room?

Also, there's the continuous-prose problem.  As a general rule (exceptions
granted to those with especially engaging prose style), I don't like reading
more than five or six lines of room description.  If there's a lot to say,
I'd rather have it parcelled out into descriptions of individual objects.
 
>> 2) Motivation: how do we involve the player adequately in the experiences of
>> the PC to make moral choices seem like important issues?  (As opposed to
>> means to the puzzle-solving end.)
>>
>> 3) Concreteness: how do we implement the problems of the PC in such a way
>> that the player can make complex choices without recourse to sophisticated,
>> impossible-to-implement conversations or interior monologues?
>
>I find that those come down to the same problem:

I separated them because one has to do with the internal state of the player
and the other with the externals of her game-playing.  But I see your point.

>The rest, at least as I've seen it, is a matter of boiling down complex
>choices to simple, concrete actions. You go north or south; you pick up
>the ornament or smash it with a hammer; you drink the potion or hand it to
>your best friend. If the text leading up to that point has done its job,
>the player knows what the *real* choice was, and all the details involved
>therein.
>
>Your objection, I guess, is that this is still a one-bit choice -- option
>A or option B -- and can't *really* represent a more complex range of
>action. 

No, actually, I don't object to that; at any given moment, after all, we're
only doing one thing.  And if you want to widen the range of options, you
just provide a third door or a third path (Tapestry).  

What I think I-F has a hard time dealing with is the internal choice (a
significant change of character's viewpoint/mode of thought that is not
directly expressed in behavior).  Even when that's not the issue, though, I
think it's not always easy to find a way to pare down the options (as you
describe) to a single moment of decision with all the implications clearly
spelled out.  But this again becomes more a writing problem than a coding
one.

ES


From emshort@mindspring.com Mon Nov 29 13:27:55 CET 1999
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From: "Emily Short" <emshort@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: IF Design Issue
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----------
In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911271400490.23062-100000@aludra.usc.edu>, Jesse
Burneko <jburneko@aludra.usc.edu> wrote:

>> "You kick the corpse a couple of times for good measure" works better
>> for me than "You're really pleased you finally killed the evil tyrant."
>
>Sure, this is a lot more subtle and probably a better way to do it.  But
>the effect is the same.

The significance is the same; the effect, at least for me, is not.   When
I'm angry or otherwise in the grip of strong emotion, my attention isn't
focused on that fact -- I'm too busy trying to think of a scathing retort
(or whatever).  The ability to *describe* an emotion is a luxury comes with
distance.  So my basic rule is that what appears on the screen should be
what the protagonist is consciously thinking.  If you've done your job, the
player will know what monsters of the id lurk beneath this.  

Someone on r.*.i-f recently expressed a distaste for Douglas Hofstadter, so
maybe I shouldn't use him as an authority.  But (his occasional
self-aggrandizement aside) he hypothesized something in _Le Ton Beau de
Marot_ that I did agree with.  To wit: the reader of a book generates a
mental model of the viewpoint character, taking on her gender, ethos, and
background.  He asks not, "How would this event make me feel?" but "How
would this event make the protagonist feel?"  Being a good reader is more
than merely being quick at scanning pages; it includes the mental agility to
be vicariously outraged when a couple of Austen characters elope, but
complacent about the promiscuity in Donna Tartt's _Secret History_, which
the main character calls "a homey little vice."  [<propping another soapbox
on top of the one I'm already standing on>: I think that this is one of the
great values of fiction.  Looking through another character's eyes may be
escapist, as you suggest, but it also teaches patience, charity,
compassion.] 

The bit about the inner character-model is a mundane observation, but I
bring it up because I think the job of the I-F author is to help the player
generate this model as accurately as possible, and then let it function --
as opposed to providing the end result pre-chewed.

To that end: often the reactions of the protagonist can be expressed through
externals; there are all sorts of conventions in fiction for doing this.  At
a critical moment, what does the character choose to look at?  Dorothy
Sayers gives us half a page of minute physical description of a character in
_Gaudy Night_, which without being explicitly erotic manages to portray lust
as accurately as anything I've ever encountered: the emotion is in how
closely the character looks, not in what she sees.  What does the character
feel?  Cold, hunger, and nausea are all tried-and-cliche signs -- so that it
is enough for Emma Bovary merely to stretch her hands towards the fire, and
we understand that she is chilly and that the chill is internal.  And so on.

Translating these methods into I-F is sometimes easy and sometimes not. 
Moments of crisis are simplest, since the author can insert a longish
section of prose without it seeming out of place.  But in the intersticial
times when the character is just poking around looking at objects, what
then?  One possibility might be to key atmospheric statements (eg. "The
windows rattle with the wind off the moor") to the character's intended
emotional state at the moment, rather than allowing them to occur randomly. 
Key descriptions could change too; not all of them, of course, because then
a mere .z8 file wouldn't be able to hold all the prose, but the ones that
were most important at a given moment.

Just some thoughts.  I'm offering this not as a counter-argument to anything
you've said (because I think we agree on essentials), but as raw speculation
for general comment.

ES 


From dfan@thecia.net Tue Nov 30 09:29:13 CET 1999
Article: 67205 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Dan Schmidt <dfan@thecia.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Borges' Menard's Quixote (was Deadline stuff)
Date: 29 Nov 1999 19:40:19 -0500
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Michael Brazier <mbrazier@argusinc.com> writes:

| Magnus Olsson wrote:
| >
| > [someone wrote]
| > >Reminds me of Jorge Luis' Borges short story about a modern writer
| > >who wanted to recreate Don Quixote -- not by writing it as if
| > >Cervantes lived today, but by recreating Cervantes' exact thought
| > >process as he wrote it for the first time and coming up with
| > >exactly the same text.

Well, not by recreating Cervantes' thought process; see below.

| > ...and this re-written Don Quixote was a much deeper and more
| > significant work, since the modern writer had the benefit of the
| > intervening centuries of literature.
| 
| I've just realized why "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote" struck me
| as implausible on first reading.  Surely the only way to recreate
| Cervantes' thought process as he wrote _Don Quixote_ is to "become"
| Cervantes by (among other things) ignoring everything that has happened
| between Cervantes' time and ours?  And if you've done that, how can
| there be more depth and significance in the rewritten _Don Quixote_ than
| there was in the original?

The whole point of the story is that Menard has not ignored everything
that has happened between Cervantes' time and ours.  On the contrary,
he has written a 20th century novel (actually, he only ever finishes a
couple chapters) that has deliberately adopted the style of colloquial
17th century Spanish.

Menard's Quixote is, at every turn, informed by the three hundred years
of history and literature that have passed between Cervantes' work and
his own.  If it were not, it would just be a mechanical copy, and what
good is that?  Every phrase, though it happens to be word-for-word
identical with the 'original', has been written, and must be read, in a
20th-century context rather than that of Cervantes' time.

A sample quote:

  The contrast in styles is equally striking.  The archaic style of
  Menard - who is, in addition, not a native speaker of the language
  in which he writes - is somewhat affected.  Not so the style of
  his precursor, who employs the Spanish of his time with complete
  naturalness.

-- 
Dan Schmidt | http://www.dfan.org


From dns361@merle.acns.nwu.edu Wed Dec  1 10:59:06 CET 1999
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From: Second April <dns361@merle.acns.nwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Protagonist free will [was: IF Design Issue]
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:14:14 -0600
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On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Adam Cadre wrote:

> [spoilers for VARICELLA follow]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





> Now, VARICELLA sounds like the sort of game you had in mind in the
> passage I quoted.  The game doesn't really offer the opportunity for
> moral choice: either you allow the PC's inclinations to direct your
> choices, or you set the game aside.  (Or you can always >WAKE UP, but
> this isn't entirely unlike filing away those papers.)  And yes, in the
> end, the PC is punished.  But is the player meant to stare at her
> screen and cry, "What have I done?"  Nah, not really.  Sure, the ending
> is meant to function partly as a reminder that, just in case you've
> forgotten, the Primo's actions aren't deserving of a reward.  But the
> *player's* actions?  The player has done nothing more vicious than type
> on a computer.  She hasn't even made any questionable moral choices,
> since the game doesn't offer any real ethical choice.  So she isn't
> meant to feel regret, and she *is* rewarded -- rewarded with a fitting
> ending to a story about a nasty man in a nastier world.  At least,
> that's the intention; whether it works is for the players to decide.

Not to claim I know what was going in Varicella better than the author
does or anything, but...

It's difficult, and rare, and usually the sign of a pretty weak game, to 
really thoroughly distance the player's aims from the PC's, or rather
have the player entirely detached from what the PC is doing. (Weak because
uninvolving. Do I care, when I'm playing Thorfinn's Realm, about finding
treasure for the PC? No, I don't; my interest in the plot is minimal.) And
I really don't think Varicella achieved this effect, Emily's point about
the distancing effect of humor notwithstanding; for one thing, the player
is encouraged to view Primo himself as relatively okay, since playing the
game introduces the player to a whole lot of people who have the same
goals as Primo but who are even worse people. By contrast, wanting to
seize power in order to redecorate the palace doesn't seem so bad. Maybe I
shouldn't be generalizing from my own view, but I think it's likely that
the player will enjoy dispatching the various horrible people just as much
as the PC does, rather than viewing the whole thing with wry
amusement. I also think the ending will, and should, bring the player up
short, and force him/her to wonder whether identifying with the PC was
such a great idea.

Now, okay, there's a motivation/goal divergence here, in that the player
is more than likely motivated by the need to give monstrous people their
just deserts, and the PC is motivated by, er, the need for power and
better interior decoration, and they happen to share the same goal. But
I'm not sure that the player is likely to keep that distinction in mind
all the way through--and hence the player's first reaction to the ending
probably isn't "Oh, well, the PC got what he deserved, really." It's not
_that_ easy to break out of identifying with the PC. (And if you really
didn't want the player to identify with the PC's goals, well, if I may say
so, the better course might have been to paint the PC a little blacker and
the other characters a little less black, so that the moral equivalence
between the PC and the others is a little more obvious.)

I wouldn't say I felt "regret" when I reached the ending, but it did give
me pause--and I assumed that was intentional.

I don't think that Varicella and Funny Games are even vaguely equivalent,
since the investment in playing IF and watching a movie aren't really all
that similar.

Duncan Stevens
dns361@merle.acns.nwu.edu

But buy me a singer to sing one song--
Song about nothing--song about sheep--
Over and over, all day long;
Patch me again my thread-bare sleep.

--Edna St. Vincent Millay




From emshort@mindspring.com Thu Dec  2 10:08:52 CET 1999
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From: "Emily Short" <emshort@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Protagonist free will
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 01:09:19 -0700
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----------
In article <38457AD2.3BEB@adamcadre.ac>, Adam Cadre <ac@adamcadre.ac> wrote:


>[VARICELLA spoilers follow]



























>As for identification with the PC... well, a lot of that depends on
>what you the player bring to the text.  I myself am not the sort of
>person who gets really immersed in a text, which I suppose is why I'm
>less averse to postmodern tricks than many others; it is very, very
>rare that I get absorbed in a text to the extent that I lose awareness
>of the craft that went into it and just find myself "living in the
>story," or however that works.  When *I* play Primo I don't identify,
>but that may just be me.

I have to agree with you there.  I didn't identify with Primo either.  And
having finished the game, I have to say I think identifying with him might
have lessened my enjoyment -- and indeed, the game's impact as a whole.  The
parts of the story I found most creepy and most convincing were those in
which Primo manipulates someone else into doing his own dirty work.  Calmly
handing Charlotte the dagger with which to dispatch her rapist seemed both
consistent with Primo's deep-seated dislike for dirty work, and significant
of a truly vile personality, however deserving of punishment his victim may
have been.  When I played the scene, I found myself envisioning it
cinematically.  [Since it was *my* little fantasy, Primo was played by Kevin
Spacey.]  I watched him watch Charlotte kill the minister; he was collected
and impassive.  Nothing revealed whether his motive was self-interest, or a
drive to play Nemesis, or some weird combination of the two.  Truly chilling
-- but only inasmuch as I was *distant* from Primo.

On similar lines, I think it would have given me much more pause, actually,
if Primo had been allowed to get away with what he did.  Now *that* would
have been a dark game.

Just my own bizarre take on it.  Conversely, I didn't find the sequence with
the remote-control car nearly as satisfying.  In keeping with the previous
events, I'd sort of expected Primo to find a way to use the prince's
weaknesses against him.  After all, the liquor bottle was there like the
proverbial unfired gun; I figured it had to be good for something.  As for
Modo, well, that was just gross.  (Maybe I've had one too many run-ins with
things left too long in the refrigerator.)  

Still, a wonderful game, earning a lot of points for humor and classy
presentation.  

ES


From erkyrath@eblong.com Thu Dec  2 22:38:51 CET 1999
Article: 67323 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@eblong.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Glk] Building WinGlk with GNU tools
Date: 2 Dec 1999 15:06:05 GMT
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David Given <dg@pearl.tao.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <rRn14.46534$sy5.28105@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> 	jcmason@uwaterloo.ca (Joe Mason) writes:
> [...]
>> Which you do.  Ok, it's kind of sort of the fault of the Windows DLL system
>> not being as flexible as the Unix shared library system, but really "main()
>> is not going to be in a DLL" is a pretty reasonable assumption to make.
>> It's more the fault of Glk.  I'd forgotten about the weird wrinkle with
>> main().
>> 
>> Zarf: why DOES Glk have "main()" in the Glk library, rather than specifying
>> that your program's main() function must call glk_init() first thing, then
>> glk_main() when it's ready to start the event loop?
> 
> I've been here. The problem, he said, is that the world is not all Unix:
> some platforms need to do a lot of processing inside main() before it's in
> the right state to call glk_main(). For example, in MacOS, you need to set
> up the user interface, and so on.

It would be possible if I *mandated* that main() call glk_init() first,
and passed in the arguments to main (on platforms where that's
meaningful.)

But it's an extra place for people to say "Hey! I can put in some
non-portable code here!" As you may note, I am a strong proponent of the
theory "Look, this is *my* rope, and you'll hang yourself with it *my*
way." :-) 

Also -- in PalmOS, there's no "main" at all. The top-level function is
called PilotMain(), and the arguments are unfamiliar. Again, I could
mandate that those get passed in, but it seems simpler to handle
everything in place.

I admit I didn't realize that main() couldn't be in a shared library in
Windows. I figured that main() was just another function, and could be in
a library just like anything else.

I'm afraid I have to go with "Windows is dumb". :-)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From thornley@visi.com Fri Dec  3 12:33:03 CET 1999
Article: 67344 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Game Settings] Help us please you!
References: <823bqq$d07$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
From: thornley@visi.com (David Thornley)
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In article <823bqq$d07$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Quentin.D.Thompson  <stupid_q@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Hi folks, Quentin D. Thompson - sole programmer and writer of a castle in
>the air I term "The Theatre Of The Sensible" - here, in search of valuable
>info. When I wrote my first game, "Halothane" (of Comp99 notoriety, or is it
>fame?) I was under the mistaken impression that the setting I used (I'm not
>mentioning it here, because it rather spoils the fun for a new player) was,
>if not original, at least untried enough or fresh enough not to draw groans
>of "Deja vu!!" from most players.

Yes, I've seen that before.  I've also seen fairy stories and stories with
odd use of language before, and I've played "Hunt the Wumpus".  The
important thing is what people do with the settings.

If you think "I'll put a game on a spaceship - that's interesting" you're
likely to write a bad game.  If you think "I've got some neat ideas that
would fit together well on a spaceship", you're on the road to writing
a good one.  

>this connexion, I'd like your suggestions on the setting of my second Inform
>game, tentatively entitled "4924". This is a comic game, a parody of the
>"space-opera", in which you're an engineer on board a mining vessel, who has
>to solve or face a number of problems, including fixing a paranoid robot,
>unearthing a piracy operation, and earning the gratitude of the very
>Victorian passenger on board. :)

Parodies can be good.  (If nothing else, when writing a parody, you have
to do a bit of thinking about what you're parodying.)  I've seen paranoid
robots done before.  If you just wanted to use a paranoid robot for no
particular reason, forget it; if there's something neat you want to do
with it, that's good.  

 My questin is this: Are spaceship-settings
>cliched? Have they been done previously and outstandingly (or done to death)

General rule:  Everything has been done previously.  Nothing has been
done to death.  Not even semi-silly medieval settings with cute
anachronisms or dark future settings or alma mater settings.

If you've got a story that can be put nicely on a spaceship, that's good.
If you think spaceships are neat and you can put a story on one, that's
bad.  It's like fan fiction.  If you want to write a Jean-Luc Picard
story because you can do something interesting with the character, it
could be good.  If you're just taking advantage of the fact that your
audience knows Picard, so you don't have to do any character development
or explaining, it's gonna be bad.

Of course, I'm not saying anything new here....

--
David H. Thornley                        | If you want my opinion, ask.
david@thornley.net                       | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-


From Lysseus@email.msn.com Fri Dec  3 15:21:37 CET 1999
Article: 67360 of rec.arts.int-fiction
From: "Kevin Forchione" <Lysseus@email.msn.com>
References: <efDdLzrO$GA.257@cpmsnbbsa05> <s4eu7nn5gsp122@corp.supernews.com>
Subject: Re: [TADS] ANNOUNCE containment.t 1.0
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:09:17 -0000
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:67360

Dan Shiovitz <dbs@cs.wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:s4eu7nn5gsp122@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <efDdLzrO$GA.257@cpmsnbbsa05>,
> Kevin Forchione <Lysseus@email.msn.com> wrote:
> >This ADV.T library extension has been bundled with sense 2.2.3 and
uploaded
> >to
> [..]
> >The containment class implements a POLYMORPHIC object class that
> >consolidates the behaviours from the following ADV.T classes:
> [..]
>
> I like this idea in general, but I'd make two cautions (I've only
> skimmed the manual, since it's in a mostly-unreadable-for-me microsoft
> word format, so they may already have been addressed)

Some of these issues do get discussed briefly. I shall convert the word
document over to html in the next release.

>  - although the general idea of being able to change a container's
>    type is nice, I'm not clear on how often it'd be used in practice.

I would hope that changes of type would be very, very rare.

>    on the other hand, I'm positive people are going to want rooms,
>    containers, surfaces, etc all the item. Are there predefined
>    subclasses for things people will commonly want to make?

I should probably add this with the next release. I've already added them
into inform.t.

>  - another thing that polymorphism seems to work against is
>    having an object that can both contain things and hold them on its
>    surface, but this is definitely a feature that should be in
>    any container revision. does your library support this? (beyond
>    the usual trick of having two objects)

No.

This is an issue that I chose deliberately to put on the back burner with
this release, although I did discuss it with my beta-tester, who would also
love to see this sort of thing implemented. It does not support objects that
are simultaneously containers and supporters for practical reasons,
primarily since this would mean further restructuring of the ADV.T
mechanisms for accessibility and listing.

Adding this kind of support would increase the complexity of the model, but
I don't think the class definition would work against this kind of
implementation. The class would have the flexibility of being solely a
surface or container, or of being both. If the object possesses both
behaviours then its definition would have to be very similar to this one in
order to support both behaviours, if we are talking about non-composite
objects.

The mechanics of an object that can contain objects on its surface and
inside appears to have four possible solutions:

    a. the old two objects trick, or some composite form involving a surface
and container object
    b. a disposition attribute carried on the contents objects themselves
    c. multiple contents lists
    d. a single-contents list that carries the object's disposition

The first case has good points. The definition is very simple and the
behaviours remain mutually exclusive. The biggest problem is with verb
redirection, and with the necessity of coding up each component object.

The second case, as the multiform.t class of inform.t has demonstrated, is
possible. A single-contents list approach can have objects that behave as
though they are both containers and surfaces, by carrying the disposition on
each individual content object. But this means that the containment object
would require a means of maintaining these dispositions and of sorting out
these objects when listing or manipulating them. This means that this kind
of disposition check would have to exist in the accessibility rules, the
listing rules, and the manipulation rules, etc.

The third case, as Tenthstone has demonstrated, involves multiple contents
lists. Pianosa.t already exists as an alternative containment system, and
allows the author to code up a shorthand object location/disposition through
"in" and "on" attributes. But this has involved a major restructuring of the
ADV.T approach.

Going deeper into these cases involves a discussion similar to the one I had
with Tenthstone sometime before he released Pianosa: the major issues were w
ith regard to maintenance and extension. Specifically, the addition of
further dispositions, which is bound to happen. As soon as one establish any
kind of performance limitation, someone will come along and, in the interest
of originality, want to stretch the model.

The first case simply requires coding another object and redirecting the
verbs for it. If there were an automatic means of doing this then the
"trick" would be far less pernicious.

The second case is a bit more complicated, instead of using a Boolean;
bit-flags could be used to carry the item disposition for "in", "on" and
"under", etc. But this requires further modification to the accessibility,
manipulation, and listing mechanisms. Generalising these mechanisms would be
necessary.

Similarly, in the third case, two contents lists might represent "in" and
"on"; and we could add a third to accommodate "under" if we desired, but we
would still have to modify the underpinning mechanism to some small degree.
And the question becomes one of how many dispositions to represent in the
base model, and how much flexibility to allow for.

The fourth case is one that is only being thought through at the moment. No
prototyping has been done. This may be an interesting approach...
Tolkienesque "One List To Rule Them All, And In The Process Bind Them."
Although setting up the initial state would require something similar to
case two or three.

In each case, however, the best approach is one that provides an integration
of accessibility, manipulation, and listing processes, and the mechanism of
the parser cannot be left out of these considerations. As everyday objects
do have three-dimensionality, it does seem that a model representation of
this kind of behaviour would be appropriate for objects, especially
containment objects.

But the world model of Interactive Fiction is still awaiting its equivalent
to the Quake engine. I suspect that T3 is going to help usher this in. I
have a feeling that once the parser is available to the author in TADS that
we'll see far more derivations of and alternatives to the library than we
have witnessed with Inform. Interactive Fiction will probably remain,
however, largely the purview dramatic magicians, a trick of light, smoke and
mirrors, and sleight-of-hand.

--Kevin




From barlowfamily@netscapeonline.co.uk Sat Dec  4 10:04:48 CET 1999
Article: 67380 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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Adam Cadre wrote:

> Anyone here ever heard of Dogme 95?  I suspect they'd approve of the
> first puzzle but not the second.

(um, Varicella **spoilers**, etc.)


I imagine they'd be too busy *not* approving of the non-contempary setting,
all the murdering, the sci-fi mould thing, the ability to save and restore,
etc, etc...

Plus, I presume the colours were added post-production?

Though it appears the sound was recorded with the visuals. And all the
lighting is natural?

Anyway, to quote Lars Von Triers, "the point of Dogme was not the
restrictions themselves but working within restrictions that the artist sets
himself." I guess a lot of IF fits that.

I'd better shut up now before I suggest a Dogme Manifesto for IF. I'm
_almost_ tempted to ask people what rules should go in there and sit back
and watch... :)

Sam.



From dfan@thecia.net Wed Dec  8 09:31:54 CET 1999
Article: 67448 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Dan Schmidt <dfan@thecia.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Game Settings] Help us please you!
Date: 08 Dec 1999 00:50:57 -0500
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"Emily Short" <emshort@mindspring.com> writes:

| One thing I miss in much current I-F is the sense of
| edge-of-the-seat wonder that I associate with "Zork" and the
| "Enchanter" trilogy: the settings of those games are inherently
| compelling.  Caves are numinous; one tends to have the feeling that
| one's presence is felt.  And there's also something creepy and
| fascinating about knowing that all the props (rusty machinery,
| push-buttons, key-wearing unicorns, etc.) have been put there for a
| purpose.  The idea that our world is explicable by teleology rather
| than etiology -- that is, that things are created to some end,
| rather than as a result of some beginning -- has pretty much gone
| Out, but the concept retains its unscientific charm.
| 
| Now, we as a community seem to be growing out of doing things that
| way; the pull is towards more sophisticated plotting, richer
| characterization, more accurate mimesis.  Most of the I-F I've
| played recently contains a story that is miles better than the one
| in "Enchanter" -- and I would be hard pressed to pretend that "Zork"
| even has a plot.  And in a story-centered world, one feels called
| upon to justify the presence of the items one scatters around.
| 
| ...probably the best positive, post-Infocom examples of what I
| have in mind are "For a Change" and "Change in the Weather."  

[Sorry for the long quote]

Actually, I must admit that one of the reasons for the weird language
in For A Change was so that I could sneak in a world with rusty
machinery and key-wearing unicorns without people getting on its case
for not having those expected-in-the-late-90's traits of sophisticated
plotting, rich characterization and accurate mimesis.  In some sense,
the high-falutin' language stuff was sugarcoating so that what was
basically a puzzle game would go down easier.  That's not the whole
story, obviously -- the language, hopefully, worked as more than a
gimmick -- but it was something I thought about partially in those
terms.

Dan Shiovitz in his review said

| It felt too often like the author was designing by "wouldn't it be
| cool if?" and not "it would make sense for the world that"

and he's exactly right (except for the 'too often' part, arguably :).
Of course there's no good reason for that glass cube to be
sitting there, for example.  Ideally a game would satisfy both of
Dan's criteria, but that's really tough to do (another reason why I
thought Hunter, in Darkness was so great).  I do think it would be
sad if authors threw away their it-would-be-cool-if ideas because
they couldn't figure out how to make the games live up to late-90's
standards of mimesis.

-- 
Dan Schmidt | http://www.dfan.org


From erkyrath@eblong.com Wed Dec  8 21:47:55 CET 1999
Article: 67458 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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paene lacrimavi postquam Nat Lanza <magus@cs.cmu.edu> scripsit:

> Semi-unrelated, but does anyone want to hazard a guess at how painful
> doing a PerlGlk would be? There are reasonable Perl interfaces to
> curses, Tk, GTK+, and so forth, so doing the actual output should be
> pretty easy.
 
Do you mean a Perl interface for Glk? I don't think it should be hard.
Perl is a complete slut of a language and can be made to interact with
anything. :-)

Rules for translating C Glk function calls to Perl ones are, I hope,
straightforward. I deliberately kept to a few types of arguments, to make
the dispatch layer easy. (Yes, glk_gestalt_ext() is the annoying
exception.) You could *use* the dispatch layer, in fact, and then put a
layer of wrappers on top.

Fraser <blancolioni@blancolioni.org> wrote:
> Sort of related: sending Glk to Gtk is a pain, because of the
> immaturity of the text widget.  If there are any Gtk text widget
> experts out there, drop me a line, because it's painful to have
> a semi-working version of Glk sitting around on my hard drive
> making me feel guilty.

Yeah, I was wondering about that. Damn. I had assumed that GTK had a
reasonable text widget; I mean, isn't that the third widget anybody
writes? (After a pushbutton and a scroll bar. :-)

Even less related: anyone want to take I/O code from Rezrov and make an
Emacs module for Glk? I *know* Emacs has a sufficiently powerful text
widget...

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From emshort@mindspring.com Thu Dec  9 13:10:54 CET 1999
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From: "Emily Short" <emshort@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Game Settings] Help us please you!
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 23:42:00 -0700
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----------
In article <82ndn9$dbt$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, okblacke@my-deja.com wrote:

>In article <82kcc7$gle$1@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>,
>  "Emily Short" <emshort@mindspring.com> wrote:
>[about cliched settings, etc.]
>
>I think the thing about campuses (campi?) is that they tend to be an
>excuse for a series of in-jokes, which raif regulars don't care for
>unless they're RAIF in-jokes.  Rightfully, too: If it's a bunch of
>in-jokes for a particular audience, leave it to that particular
>audience.
...
>As for the cave crawl, a lot of that may have to do with the numerous
>ADVENT knock-offs.  A lot of games did little but recycle ADVENT.

Naturally, I understand that.  I didn't mean to suggest that I was crusading
for a return to campus and cave-crawl games per se.  (God help us.)  And
when I mentioned "the irresistible impulse towards the in-joke", I meant it
in the same way one might speak of "an irresistible strain of Spanish
Influenza."

My point was that in trying to evolve away from certain cliches, we may
forget what made the originals so wonderful.  We have (well, *I* have) spent
a lot of time lately talking about the weaknesses of I-F relative to
literature; here, on the other hand, is one of the strengths.  Location
dominates a player's impressions in a way that it need not dominate a
reader's.  Moreover, when I'm reading a story, I sometimes find
overelaboration of place an unwelcome distraction from the progress of the
plot.  There is no such danger in I-F.

That being the case, I enjoy playing games in which setting is a large part
of the story's attraction -- because it is beautiful, or frightening, or
rich in history, or otherwise suggestive.  Easy to do with a cave; harder,
but not impossible, with a living room.  But I think it's worth trying,
since we're moving towards the sorts of stories that may occur in living
rooms.

ES


From jonadab@bright.net Thu Dec  9 13:12:28 CET 1999
Article: 67485 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: jonadab@bright.net (Jonadab the Unsightly One)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [Announce] emacs inform-mode 1.5.0 released
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Rupert Lane <rupert@merguez.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> 	 http://www.merguez.demon.co.uk/inform-mode/

Wonderful! 

Can't wait to try it out...


"Virtual Reality has nothing on Calvin."           -- Susie Derkins


From gschmidl@xxx.gmx.at Sun Dec 12 22:50:45 CET 1999
Article: 67536 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: "Gunther Schmidl" <gschmidl@xxx.gmx.at>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] The New Zork Times
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With the kind permission of Activision, Inc., I am able to make available to
you all thirteen issues of "The New Zork Times" and the (in)famous "* * * *"
intermediary issue before the name was changed to "The Status Line".

My plan is to make all the issues of "The Status Line" available

The files, in PDF format, can be downloaded from http://gschmidl.cjb.net/nzt/
--
+-----------------+---------------+------------------------------+
| Gunther Schmidl | ICQ: 22447430 | IF: http://gschmidl.cjb.net/ |
|-----------------+----------+----+------------------------------|
| gschmidl (at) gmx (dot) at | please remove the "xxx." to reply |
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------+







From green_gargoyle@my-deja.com Mon Dec 13 09:20:46 CET 1999
Article: 67535 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Kathleen M. Fischer <green_gargoyle@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Why romance doesn't work as a game
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:57:28 GMT
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In article <38508D4B.2AA4CF29@home.com>,
  Roger Carbol <rcarbol@home.com> wrote:

> As a counterpoint, why is genre horror so popular in IF?  It
> seems to ALSO require things like internalized PC feelings and
> so forth.  It strikes me as odd that horror could succeed and
> romance couldn't.

<aside: tried sending something like this last night and AOL dumped
me just as I was hitting the send button... grrrrr... does anyone know
how to disable the time out feature?>

While the PC's feelings of horror might be internal, the causes are
usually external (things that go bump in the night, dark cramped spaces,
a chilling wind, a scuttle of claws, etc). Things that are fairly easy
to code. In most genre romances, the feelings start from within, and are
often quite contrary to all external forces. Tall dark and handsome is
sitting there brooding over his brandy, after having lectured you on the
evils of throwing mashed potatoes in public, when the main character
suddenly has an inexplicable desire to kiss him. My guess is that the
"inexplicable" nature of genre love is going to be extremely difficult
to pull of in IF. Players don't seem to like being told they are
suddenly feeling love/hate/regret toward something, especially since up
to this point the PC has been going out her way to antagonize him. The
player's are going to turn around and say. "I don't regret throwing the
mashed potatoes at Grant, the cad deserved it! Imagine lecturing me on
the evils of dancing with another man when I know full well he's slept
with half the women in the room!"

Kathleen

--
-- Excuse me while I dance a little jig of despair.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


From erkyrath@eblong.com Tue Dec 14 17:32:04 CET 1999
Article: 67645 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@eblong.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: I-F Musicals?
Date: 14 Dec 1999 15:34:00 GMT
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Iain Merrick <im@cs.york.ac.uk> wrote:
> Greg Ewing wrote:
> 
> [...]
>> Seems to me the closest text-IF analogy to a musical would be
>> one in which large chunks of the narrative and/or dialogue
>> was in the form of poetry. Reading poetry is sort of the
>> text equivalent of listening to music, in terms of entertainment,
>> conveyance of emotions, etc.
>> 
>> What would such a work be called? A poetical?
> 
> If anyone still hasn't played them, Andrew Plotkin's _The Space Under
> the Window_ and Graham Nelson's _The Tempest_ are about the closest I've
> seen to this sort of concept.

I've referred to _SUTWIN_ as a sort of IF poetry, but only in a
metaphorical sense. The text is straightforward prose. It's not poetry,
even in the loosest free-verse sense.

I keep considering writing an Inform game entirely in verse -- in the
style of Dr. Seuss. Then I come to my senses. The rhyme and meter would
have to be perfect all the way through, for the joke to work. Talk about a
library rewrite. Like _The Tempest_, but with less room for flexibility.

(I think it was Randall Garrett that pointed out that comic verse is the
most technically demanding form.)

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@eblong.com Tue Dec 14 22:39:59 CET 1999
Article: 67658 of rec.arts.int-fiction
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@eblong.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: [glulx]  Features
Date: 14 Dec 1999 20:20:23 GMT
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Don Rae <gameman69@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Would it be "wishful thinking"....
> 
> To tool some modern applications into the glulx virtual environment as a
> callable resource, or as a "shell" environment....for the purpose of
> integrating or incorporating some common HTML/multimedia type addons?  (I'm
> thinking along the lines of HTML display, JPEG/GIF, midi and wav playback,
> etc)  Given that this virtual environment is a bit larger to work in, would
> this be considered a feasible venture?

Well, there's reason that all the I/O is handled through a single @glk
opcode. You could write an entirely separate I/O model that worked by
pushing HTML out a single output stream. I'd have no problem with adding
an @htmlstream opcode to the VM (with the caveat that most executables
would support one or the other, not both.)

Or you could segment the problem somewhat differently: add a wintype_HTML
to the Glk libraries. That could be a lot of work, of course, since you'd
be adding HTML display code to existing library logic.
 
> Or alternatively, can a programmer interface directly to the glulx
> environment and/or an application within it, or can applications in this
> virtual environment make calls to external resources outside it....using
> functions designed specifically for this purpose?

If there's a use for it, again, I can add some kind of external-call
opcode.

The reason I haven't yet is because, well, there's no current use for it.
(Has anyone *ever* used the external-call feature of TADS?) 

Historically, such uses are either (a) mono-platform, which is to say
Wintel-only, and you might as well just release a Windows binary, or (b) a
call to some other portable executor -- such as Java or Perl -- and
*those* are powerful enough that you might as well release a Java or Perl
program.

Glulx is almost completely trivial, as VMs go. Its sole advantage is that 
it needs no environmental support besides Glk. (Okay, and some kind of
malloc facility.) Negate that advantage, and there just isn't much point.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From erkyrath@eblong.com Wed Dec 15 15:47:06 CET 1999
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From: Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@eblong.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Why romance doesn't work as a game
Date: 15 Dec 1999 14:38:05 GMT
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Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@compaq.com> wrote:
> Bert Byfield -- no mail wrote:
>> 
>> Regular books tell the reader what they (the protagonist) are feeling.
> 
> But the reader of the book isn't the protagonist, and isn't expected
> to pretend that they are -- not in any of the books I've read, anyway.
> The protagonist is written about in the first or third person, not
> the second person.
> 
> (There are, I gather, a few works around where this is not true,
> but they are a very small minority.)

We've been around this a few times before, but nonetheless:

I've found that when reading those few second-person works, the experience
of identification with the protagonist really isn't much different. The
author tells me how the character is feeling, whether the character is
"me" or "you" or "him".

And when I play IF that tells me how I'm feeling, it's *still* the same
experience. 

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."


From green_gargoyle@my-deja.com Thu Dec 16 09:34:13 CET 1999
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From: Kathleen M. Fischer <green_gargoyle@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Why romance doesn't work as a game
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:10:34 GMT
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In article <19991214185958.06054.00000105@ngol03.aol.com>,
  bbyfield@aol.com-nomail (Bert Byfield -- no mail) wrote:
> >>Regular books tell the reader what they (the protagonist) are
feeling.
>
> >But regular books aren't IF. What works in "static" fiction may fail
> >miserably in IF, and vice versa.
>
> Anything might fail. But what works in regular books can also work in
> IF. Words are words, dreams are dreams.

But success/failure will hinge on the implementation of those words and
dreams. Given the differences in the mediums, is not unreasonable to
assume that some methods of expression that are quite successful in a
book are beyond the reach of (or at least a bad idea for) interactive
fiction.

I'm still a fence sitter when it comes to telling the player what they
are feeling. My gut feeling is that it's bad form. My english teachers
did a fine job of drilling into my head that it's better to show than to
tell. But even that has problems as the player is suppose to be in
control of what the PC is doing and you can't very well wrench that away
just to show a romantic scene.

So if you can't tell the player they're in love ("You heart overflows
with love as TD&H strides into the room"), and you can't rip control
>from  the player to show the love ("As TD&H enters the field of daisies
you run to meet him, flinging your arms around his neck and showering
him with kisses"), then where does that leave author?

Dealing with THROW POTATOES AT TD&H.

Kathleen

(TD&H = Tall Dark & Handsome)

--
-- Excuse me while I dance a little jig of despair.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.


From lighton@monet.bestweb.net Thu Dec 16 10:35:48 CET 1999
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From: Kevin Lighton <lighton@monet.bestweb.net>
Subject: Re: Why romance doesn't work as a game
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
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Bert Byfield -- no mail <bbyfield@aol.com-nomail> wrote:
>>> Regular books tell the reader what they (the protagonist) are feeling.

>>But the reader of the book isn't the protagonist, and isn't expected
>>to pretend that they are -- not in any of the books I've read, anyway.
>>The protagonist is written about in the first or third person, not
>>the second person.

> A book reader is ALWAYS the protagonist, in their imagination.

No, they IDENTIFY with the protagonist. Not quite the same. The protagonist
will do things that the reader probably wouldn't do in the same situation
more than once. If the book is written well, the character's actions will
make sense to the reader.

> They ARE
> expected to pretend that they are.

They're expected to put themselves in the characters' shoes (some books have
multiple viewpoints) and frequently the characters' heads, not become the
character.

> The third person is just a literary device.

For setting how much information the reader has available. It can be used to
keep the reader out of any character's head, and done so successfully.

> When we read *Tarzan* we DO swing through the trees on the vines.

Not advisable. If you're swinging through trees while reading, you're likely
to crash into a tree ^_^.

Ja, mata
-- 
Kevin Lighton    shinma_kl@operamail.com (preferred to the From: address)
http://members.tripod.com/~shinma_kl/main.html
"Townsfolk can get downright touchy over the occasional earth-elemental in
the scullery. Can't imagine why..." Quenten _Winds of Fate_


From lighton@monet.bestweb.net Thu Dec 16 10:48:42 CET 1999
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From: Kevin Lighton <lighton@monet.bestweb.net>
Subject: Re: Why romance doesn't work as a game
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Bert Byfield -- no mail <bbyfield@aol.com-nomail> wrote:
>  >>Regular books tell the reader what they (the protagonist) are feeling.

>>But success/failure will hinge on the implementation of those words and
>>dreams. Given the differences in the mediums, is not unreasonable to
>>assume that some methods of expression that are quite successful in a
>>book are beyond the reach of (or at least a bad idea for) interactive
>>fiction.

> gimme a break

What problem do you have with this statement? Books and IF are related media,
but techniques that work in one don't necessarily work in the other, any more
than techniques in, say, painting and sculpture would.

>>I'm still a fence sitter when it comes to telling the player what they
>>are feeling. My gut feeling is that it's bad form.

> Go ahead. Tell them. They will love it. Well, enough of them to matter.

Telling someone what they're supposed to be feeling isn't going to work all
that well. Similar techniques in fiction tend not to work as well, either
(Just saying that a character is angry at another character doesn't have the
same impact as having the angry character do something that makes it clear
that they are angry).

>> My english teachers
>>did a fine job of drilling into my head that it's better to show than to
>>tell.

> Exactly. Showing *is* telling, just in a different way.

Not quite the same thing. Done correctly, showing builds more vivid images for
the reader/player and lets them fill in more of the details of emotions
themselves than just telling them the character's emotional state.

>> But even that has problems as the player is suppose to be in
>>control of what the PC is doing and you can't very well wrench that away
>>just to show a romantic scene.

> Yes you can! The author is the BOSS!

And if the author takes too much control of the character who the player
is supposed to be in IF, the audience leaves in droves to either find a
game that makes a reasonable pretense of being interactive or to read a
book that doesn't pretend to give the reader any control of a character.
Look up some of the reviews of _A Moment of Hope_ for how people can react
to this.

>>So if you can't tell the player they're in love ("You heart overflows
>>with love as TD&H strides into the room"),

> Yes you can! This is just like in real life, where we often find ourselves in
> love with idiots and barracudas and so on. We are suddenly in this weird
> situation that we would never have logically put ourselves in, and we are
> stuck with it. So IF can do the same thing to people, just with more
> benevolence than the poor victims have in real life from Fate.

Never once in real life have I had someone tell me that I was in love with
someone I'm uninterested in and been able to force me to act as if I was in
love (or force me to feel any other emotion for someone that I don't actually
feel for them simply by saying I do, for that matter). This is, however,
effectively what "You heart overflows with love as TD&H strides into the room"
is doing to the player.

>> and you can't rip control
>>from the player to show the love ("As TD&H enters the field of daisies
>>you run to meet him, flinging your arms around his neck and showering
>>him with kisses"),

This one's even worse.

>> then where does that leave author?

The best I can come up with is to try to make the NPCs feelings towards the
PC reasonably clear and hope the PC follows one of the possible paths you
set out. (The form would seem to want several possible objects of affection
for the player to chase/try to attract. Of course, if done well enough, you
could make the target clear early in the game, and wind up in a poor ending
if the player avoids them (the opening of _Muse_, for example).)

> In charge!

Out of players in IF if they take away the PC too much.

Ja, mata
-- 
Kevin Lighton    shinma_kl@operamail.com (preferred to the From: address)
http://members.tripod.com/~shinma_kl/main.html
"Townsfolk can get downright touchy over the occasional earth-elemental in
the scullery. Can't imagine why..." Quenten _Winds of Fate_


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Thu Dec 16 10:50:16 CET 1999
Article: 67695 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Why romance doesn't work as a game
Date: 16 Dec 1999 10:33:56 +0100
Organization: Chronically disorganized
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In article <19991214185958.06054.00000105@ngol03.aol.com>,
Bert Byfield -- no mail <bbyfield@aol.com-nomail> wrote:
>>>Regular books tell the reader what they (the protagonist) are feeling. 
>
>>But regular books aren't IF. What works in "static" fiction may fail
>>miserably in IF, and vice versa.
>
>Anything might fail. But what works in regular books can also work in IF. Words
>are words, dreams are dreams.

The keywords here are "might" and "can". My point was just that you can't
say "it works in books, so it will work in IF", because you're talking
different media. 

>>>YES, lead the user's feelings. Users/Readers might even LIKE being led into
>>an appreciation of a relationship they wouldn't normally care for.
>
>>The problem with romantic IF is, perhaps, how do you do this with subtle
>>feelings like love? I'd say it's easier to write IF where the player
>>is led into hating an NPC than itno loving one.
>
>Present something lovable and the reader will love it. Present something
>hateful and the reader will hate it. WE the creators are in charge here!   ;-)

Yeah, and the audience is mindlessly feeling what we tell it to :-).

Seriously, I think that you can present a despicable character and
make people hate it, and you can present a lovable character and make
people *like* it. But love, as in romantic love? Do you fall in love
with every lovable person you meet?

The problem is this: in a book, or a film, or a play, you're basically
asking the audience to identify with a protagonist. You tell them that
Alice is in love with Bernard, and if you're good enough at it they
identify with Alice and feel that her feelings are natural and that
they would feel the same if they were in her place.

But what many (but not all) IF authors are trying to do is to make the
player step into Alice's shoes and *become* Alice. And while the
player may accept to be told that "You're Alice, a tremendously
good-looking and charismatic accountant" (or whatever), they may not
accept to be told that "Oh, and you're also hopelessly in love with
the pathetic loser Bernard". In fact, they'll probably just say "Am
not!" and leave.

In static fiction: "Alice is this-or-that kind of person. She has these
feelings, which you may or may not agree with. Empathize with her for
a while."

In IF: "You are this-or-that kind of person. You have these feelings.
Act on them".

I'm not saying that this is impossible, just that it's more difficult.

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From mol@bartlet.df.lth.se Thu Dec 16 10:50:39 CET 1999
Article: 67696 of rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: news.lth.se!not-for-mail
From: mol@bartlet.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Why romance doesn't work as a game
Date: 16 Dec 1999 10:46:05 +0100
Organization: Chronically disorganized
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Xref: news.lth.se rec.arts.int-fiction:67696

In article <xP164.3290$jC1.358955@newshog.newsread.com>,
Kevin Lighton  <lighton@monet.bestweb.net> wrote:
>Bert Byfield -- no mail <bbyfield@aol.com-nomail> wrote:
>> The third person is just a literary device.
>
>For setting how much information the reader has available. It can be used to
>keep the reader out of any character's head, and done so successfully.

I'd advise Bert to check out a good "how-to-write" book on the difference
between the various forms of thir-person narrative.

>> When we read *Tarzan* we DO swing through the trees on the vines.
>
>Not advisable. If you're swinging through trees while reading, you're likely
>to crash into a tree ^_^.

:-)

Most important in this discussion is, I think, that in static fiction
you can expect the reader to identify with the protagonist even when
the protagonist does stupid things, or evil things, or things the
reader just never would do. (OK, there are limits).

But in IF, if you expect the player to rat on his best friend to gain
a favour from the police, you're up against difficulties of a totally
different order of magnitude than when you're expecting the reader of
a novel to continue to see things through the eyes of a protagonist who
does the same thing.

Mind you, I'm not saying that it's impossible. "Varicella" succeeded in
getting normally peaceful people to gleefully commit mass murder, and
be proud of their achievements...

-- 
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se, zebulon@pobox.com)
------    http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon   ------


From okblacke@my-deja.com Fri Dec 17 10:05:59 CET 1999
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From: okblacke@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Why romance doesn't work as a game
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:45:14 GMT
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In article <19991216000006.27827.00000404@ngol04.aol.com>,
  bbyfield@aol.com-nomail (Bert Byfield -- no mail) wrote:
>
> A book reader is ALWAYS the protagonist, in their imagination. They
ARE
> expected to pretend that they are. The third person is just a literary
device.
> When we read *Tarzan* we DO swing through the trees on the vines.

As someone who's read through all 20-odd _Tarzan_ books, I can honestly
say I never once pretended I was Tarzan.  Not even a little bit.

In fact, I never have that reaction in a book, play, movie, TV show or
any other narrative experience.  I usually feel affinity for the
protagonist and if the protagonist doesn't excite a certain degree of
empathy, the author(s) had better be making a damn good point. ("Being
John Malkovich" failed for me in that respect.)

But, no, I view narratives as an observer (or a technician), not as a
vicarious participant.

A role-playing game is something else altogether.  Some IF players are
willing (or want) to be a clearly defined protagonist and others hate
it.  Aye, there's the rub: The more clearly defined the protagonist is,
the less interactive the fiction can be.  (That's kind of ironic, when
you think about it.)

Taking Tarzan as an example, you couldn't very well have Tarzan *flee*
>from  rescuing Jane and still have him be Tarzan, could you?

It isn't a given that the "reader" of a particular work of IF is going
to agree with the author's take on the story.
--
[ok]


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
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From mcmenomy@mail1.sas.upenn.edu Sat Dec 18 22:22:51 CET 1999
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From: mcmenomy@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Mary J Mcmenomy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Why romance doesn't work as a game
Date: 17 Dec 1999 22:00:10 GMT
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John W. Kennedy (jwkenned@bellatlantic.net) wrote:
: MFischer5 wrote:
: > We're talking GENRE romances 

: In which, to use C. S. Lewis's terminology (in "An Experiment in
: Criticism", one of the three or four most valuable works _ever_ on the
: nature of art), the reader "uses", rather than "receives" the work?

: Is that even _possible_ in I.F., at least below a "Star Trek" "holodeck"
: level of technology (at which point Scott "Dilbert" Adams' criticism
: comes into play)?

Assuming that I understand your question -- it's been a few years since I
read "Experiment in Criticism" -- I don't see why not.  Art needn't be
completely natural and mimetic for us to make use of it.  The popularity
of (to pick an example not quite at random) "Dilbert" makes that clear. 
The situation of an IF game can inspire interest and usefully reflect
things about real life, even if the details are sketchy. 


As for the other problems people have been working over here:

I think the IF author needs to assume that the player will be playing in
good faith: ie, that he will either a) not try to do things seriously
counter to the purposes of the protagonist or b) not mind being smacked on
the wrist for trying.  The relationship between player and character may
look something like the relationship between one's imagination and one's
conscience: I'm constantly thinking of things I'd like to do or say, but
which my inner censor vetoes.  So it doesn't bother me when the computer
tells me, eg., that I'm too proper a young lady to strip in public, or
that I'm too nice to kill poor old Mrs. Fuddles.  (Sometimes I get
frustrated with the stock "Violence isn't the answer..." responses,
especially when the violence in question would be self-defense. 
[Delusions comes to mind here.] But for the most part, this sort of thing
seems acceptable to me.  The computer is emulating the effects of the
protagonist's instincts and ingrained morality.)

I also think it's possible to control the player by directing his
attention towards certain things and away from others.  What we see can be
as great an indicator of our character as what we do; conveniently, that
part of a work of IF remains under the control of the author, since the
player has no way to say, "No, what I really want to know about this room
is the color of the carpeting!"  In that respect, the restrictions of text
become an asset.  If you insistently turn the player's attention to the
valuables in the room, if you cause him to perform mental estimates on the
worth of the Countess' tennis bracelet, if you describe the exterior
windows in terms of their lack of a security system -- well, at that
point, he is probably not only aware of his vocation in the game, but more
inevitably absorbed in it than if you'd simply instructed him, at the
beginning, to be a thief.  If, again, you've got an NPC who is always
doing provocative things and who is persistently the center of attention,
the player will be led to investigate that character.  Once the NPC
becomes the central "puzzle" of the story, the player will probably regard
him (or her) with intense interest -- which may not be the same thing as
attraction, but which will probably serve as an adequate proxy within the
game. 

In real life, where everything is interactive, it's difficult to tell what
sort of story one is in the middle of; the sweeping romantic plots tend to
get entangled with the low-comedy farces about car repair.  The fact that
IF offers a more restricted range of options isn't a flaw -- it's simply the
nature of art. 

-- Mary McMenomy



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From: okblacke@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Why romance doesn't work as a game
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 03:24:34 GMT
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In article <83bsc3$3es$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>,
  edan@xyzzy.cc.columbia.edu (Edan Harel) wrote:
>
> Well, in a good, unpre-defined character adventure, the *player* would
> be able to define the character for himself.  If he starts taking
> everything that isn't nailed down, the game (and npc's seeing him)
> should consider him a theif.  If he flees from danger, he should be
> considered a coward.  If he hits everyone, he should be considered
> aggressive, etc.  And the game should compensate for that be openning
> up new opportunities (in terms of subplot, puzzles, puzzle solutions,
> etc) for the currently-being-defined character.  And perhaps close
> some others, though some leeway should be given.  You can't determine
> a characters personality in 5 moves, though you might be able to get a
> vague idea after they've finished half the game. IMHO, of course.

Not every story can (or should) be told this way.

> I disagree.  While, certainly, it may seem out of character for
> so-and-so to do something, erm, unchracteristic, sometimes it is those
> very awkward actions which *define* the character.  Who can forget the
> coward, who, when the moment to take action comes, takes it regardless
> of the onsequence.  Or the macho man who, when the time comes, turns
> out to be the coward.  Of course, the reader is expected to "act the
> part" and not try killing every npc, or they will be scolded.  But the
> NPC should be able to experiment with his part, and the game should
> compensate for it.  If Tarzan flees from the burning tree house where
> jane is in, then perhaps the game should put in some subplot about how
> his favorite monkey, blinky, was killed in a fire, so fire terrifys
> him.  Of course, in most (all?) cases, it would be hard for the game
> to ascertain what the player is thinking of, but it can at least try
> to make sense of the actions the game character is taking.

The point is: If Tarzan flees from the fire, you no longer have Tarzan.
You have something else which apes (heh) Tarzan but does not act like
him.  And that's fine, if that's what the author wants to get across.

But all of a sudden the author has become wildly limited in the story he
can tell, because he must also tell ten other stories that suit the
player's whim.  (Wow, try factoring that in with your USUAL
combinatorial explosion.)

A work of IF can tell many stories, including an adventure story which
has cleary defined characters who *aren't* particularly subject to
"growth".  Players who want to explore character development can look
elsewhere.  Not every author is going to want to take the Philip Jos
Farmer route with Tarzan.
--
[ok]


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
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From okblacke@my-deja.com Sun Dec 19 00:02:45 CET 1999
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From: okblacke@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: CF vs. IF (was Why Romance blah-blah-blah)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:42:12 GMT
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In article <3859B31C.F71ED41C@pacbell.net>,
  Jim Aikin <nikiaj.backwards@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> As much fun as this discussion is from a brainstorming point of view,
> it seems to me that the problem, as posed, is fundamentally insoluble.
> Trying to solve it is trying to make a fish out of a bicycle (or
> vice-versa). IF is not the same as CF (conventional fiction), and it
> is> specifically in the area of plot where it is most clearly not the
> same.
>
> If you want to have control over what the protagonist does next, WRITE
> CONVENTIONAL FICTION. There's a market for it, even. ;-) The challenge
> of writing IF is precisely how to relinquish control over the
> protagonist and still create a work that has form and meaning.

Well, I suppose that is an argument some people have made about
"Photopia".  But "Photopia" largely worked for me because, after the
initial scene, I "chose" the pre-determined path.  (My initial response
to the first scene was to have my friend pull over and grab the keys
>from  the ignition.  End of story.  Heh.)

But, ultimately, I have to kinda, sorta, somewhat, disagree with you.
Except for there being a market for conventional fiction. I've heard of
that somewhere.

And a bit about plotting being different. It usually is, to some degree.
One of those finely-tuned-watch-type-plots (that CF writers hardly do
anymore for that matter) has a lot of liabilities in IF.

For the most part, you have to account for greater variability in plot,
but each variant isn't fundamentally different from plotting seven or
eight different stories, or seven or eight different ways to treat the
same story. (And I'm being generous here: In my experience, most IF
doesn't make seven or eight significantly different plots.)

And in many cases, you don't have a plot so much as a series of puzzles.
("Beat the Devil", e.g.)

IF does depart radically from CF in other ways. Suspense, for example,
is very hard to create in IF. Neither the usual CF techniques (without
serious alteration) nor the usual computer *game* techniques (being
typically derived from reflexes) work.

Probably the most significant departure that I see is "the willing
suspense of disbelief".  IFers suspend disbelief a *lot* more
begrudgingly than traditional readers.  That makes romance a challenge.
 Or any non-snarky work, for that matter.

> --Jim (yes, I've written CF) Aikin

I've seen your byline before, though not on any fiction.  Didn't you use
to write for the old PC Techniques magazine?
--
[ok]


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From neild@grace.acm.rpi.edu Mon Dec 20 13:34:51 CET 1999
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From: neild@grace.acm.rpi.edu (Damien Neil)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Why romance doesn't work as a game
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On 17 Dec 1999 05:13:57 GMT, MFischer5 <mfischer5@aol.com> wrote:
>>That's one possibility.  A more appropriate message would be "You
>>wouldn't dream of it! Not while Jane's in danger!"  Remind the player
>>that he's TARZAN.
>
>But aren't we back to telling instead of showing? We are telling the
>player they wouldn't dream of it, when obviously they would since
>they issued the command, though most likely they are just trying to 
>find fodder for their scathing review of the lack of mimesis in 
>text adventures.

There's a couple differences here.  One has to do with definition of
character.  If the character is Tarzan, it makes perfect sense to disallow
actions which are not in his character -- certainly, a player who doesn't
want to be Tarzan won't be happy, but then the game won't be targeted
at that player.

This works even then the character is not Tarzan.  Every player-character
in a work of IF has his or her own personality.  Some games make this
personality strong, some make it weak, but it is always there.  This
shows up in things like:

  > JUMP OFF CLIFF
  No.

  > KILL THE CUTE LITTLE GIRL
  You would never dream of harming her.

It would be possible, of course, to make a game where you can do anything
at all.  I suspect this will result in the character having no personality
whatsoever.

>> ...
>"Kiss me," whispers John.
>
>and I don't think:
>
>> RUN AWAY
>You wouldn't dream of it! He's the love of your life!
>
>is going to cut it.

First off, I think that it is generally a bad idea to put the player into
a position where there is only one action which can be taken.  (Unless
the goal is to create the feeling of restricted action, of course.)

If the romance's outcome is predetermined -- if you know from the beginning
that the PC is going to end up with a specific NPC -- then it would make
perfect sense for the main character to act independantly in this
circumstance.

  "Kiss me," whispers John.  At long last, you melt into his arms.  As your
  lips meet, a freak plot event occurs, drawing you into the next chapter...

This really isn't any more intrusive than:

  The branch crumbles beneath your feet.  Grasping wildly, you catch hold of
  a conveniently placed vine...

In both cases, the player's character has acted independantly.  If the
player wants a character who isn't interested in John, or who prefers
tumbling to the jungle floor, well, this isn't the right story.

The challenge in a romance, it seems to me, is to provide the player with
something interesting to do.  You need some form of tension which the
character isn't going to resolve alone.  Some possiblities:

  There are multiple possible love interests.  The player interacts with
  them, and eventually ends up with one.  (Or possibly none, or even two.)
  (Aside: the game _Sakura Taisen_ does this quite well, I think.  Alas,
  this may be a poor example, as it has never been translated from the
  Japanese.)

  There is only one love interest, but he isn't interested.  The player
  must woo him.

  There is only one interest, but intervening troubles.  The player must
  remove them.  (Rescue the interest from pirates, prove one's worth to
  the parents, ets.)

The one thing you probably can't do is make the personality of the
player's character in doubt.  Most people are willing to play by the rules
(see _Varicella_, where many people gleefully hop into the role of a
Machiavellian manipulator and murderer), but they need to know what the
rules are.

                     - Damien


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From: okblacke@my-deja.com
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Subject: Re: Why romance doesn't work as a game
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:49:01 GMT
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In article <19991217001357.28612.00001758@ng-fc1.aol.com>,
  mfischer5@aol.com (MFischer5) wrote:
>
> But aren't we back to telling instead of showing? We are telling the
> player they wouldn't dream of it, when obviously they would since
> they issued the command, though most likely they are just trying to
> find fodder for their scathing review of the lack of mimesis in
> text adventures.

Yes, precisely. Are we to write adventures for people who don't like
them?

In the case of Tarzan--say the person really didn't know any better--you
could provide a character sketch.  But we're unlikely to be dealing with
well-known, heavily licensed characters here, so the point is a little
abstract.

> To truely solve the "romance problem" you need to come up with
> a plausable answer to the romantic equivalent of:
>
> > LOOK
> You see Jane about to be eaten by a lion.
>
> Which could be something like:
>
> > ...
> "Kiss me," whispers John.
>
> and I don't think:
>
> > RUN AWAY
> You wouldn't dream of it! He's the love of your life!
>
> is going to cut it.

I agree.

> Kathleen (not picking on you, honest, but I'm 2/3 the way through my
> game and quite frankly I have yet to solve this problem to my
> satisfaction.)

I don't feel the least bit picked on, so if you were trying to, you need
to brush up on your antagonistim. ;-)

Jim Aikin made the comparison to conventional fiction with regard to
plot, but the same basic issues apply to character development. In CF,
you make a specific plot with specific characters.

In IF, on the other hand, you develop parameters in which the player has
a certain degree of apparent freedom. They don't have absolute freedom,
and any freedom they do have is only apparent, since you (the author)
have accounted for every possible twist on the character and plot they
can take.

Does that mean you have to account for every possible twist the player
can *dream of*? Not in the least. Did Laura Knauth have to account for
the player wanting to run through "Winter Wonderland" with a chainsaw?
Does "Curses" let you strangle your aunt (grandmother?)?

It's necessary for the author to draw a line somewhere and say "No, you
can't do that" or works will never be completed.  An author can
thoroughly account for a great many things that might be tried in the
sense of providing a snarky comment or subtle push toward the right
solution or what-have-you, but disallow it all the same if it would take
the story a direction it shouldn't go.

So, that's your answer: Account for where you want the story to go,
gently but firmly push the player back from choices that aren't
acceptable to you.
--
[ok]


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